"despite objections from most Democrats..."

[Electric Monk]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026900204

Yeah, about that... If you find yourself siding with Scott Walker (R) on this, and I know some of you gunthusiasts here will, then you're clearly on the wrong website.

[Surya Gayatri]

1. Preach it, Electric!

"...you're clearly on the wrong website."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. I dream of the day gun control advocates can articulate arguments rather than rely on

silencing dissent.

[sarisataka]

20. Ironically echoing the sentiments

of another politician

[Surya Gayatri]

21. Oh, reeeeaaaally? Inteereeesting, inteereeesting!

[sarisataka]

26. It is interesting isn't it

How often Gun Control and Republican policies mesh

-stop and frisk
-seizure of private property
-absolute loyalty
-secret lists
-bureaucratic determination of rights
-more money=more rights

Just to name a few

Prominent Republicans for Gun Control
-Nixon
-Reagan
-Bloomberg (independent my ass. He has helped elect more TPers to office than Democrats)

[beevul]

33. Don't forget bloombergs astroturf moms, the VPC, and the bradys, trying to deep6 a Dem fundraiser.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172140392

[ileus]

2. This is why we fight for a more progressive 2A stance in our party.

How we ever allowed the repukes to steal one of the most important issues concerning our rights is beyond me. Want to sweep 50 states in an election, honestly stop trying to erode the bill of rights.


Killing rights does not a progressive make.

[benEzra]

13. The focus on gun control was originally seen by the Third Way as a means to look "tough on crime"

to right-leaning law-and-order voters, thereby peeling some of them away from the repubs in the early '90s. Instead, it backfired spectacularly and drove millions of gun-owning Dems and indies to either sit home or vote (R) in '94, '96, '00, and '04. Unfortunately, the Third Way and affiliates doubled down and made it a Tier 1 shibboleth in the late '90s and through the '00's, and with help from plenty of Wall Street and foundation money, it gradually took over the party. Which is how a traditionally right-leaning authoritarian position (UK, Australia, the Brady Campaign, Jim Crow, the Mulford Act, the Sullivan Law) became transmogrified into a "progressive" one.

If John F. Kennedy were alive today, he'd be kicked out of the party over his ownership of an AR-15, and be the subject of a daily Two Minutes Hate over his enjoyment of target shooting.

[Shamash]

18. JFK was also an NRA member. Don't forget the hate he'd pick up for that. Clearly not a liberal.

[Human101948]

43. Know your history...that was before the NTA went insane...

In November 1976, the NRA’s old guard Board of Directors fired Carter and 80 other employees associated with the more expansive view of the Second Amendment and implicit distrusting any government firearm regulation. For months, the Carter cadre secretly plotted their revenge and hijacked the NRA’s annual meeting in Cincinnatti in May 1977. The meeting had been moved from Washington to protest its new gun control law. Winkler writes that Carter’s top deputy Neal Knox was even more extreme than him—wanting to roll back all existing gun laws, including bans on machine guns and saying the federal government had killed Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy as “part of a plot to advance gun control.”
....After the coup, the NRA ramped up donations to congressional campaigns. “And in 1977, new articles on the Second Amendment appeared” in American Rifleman, Burbick noted, “rewriting American history to legitimize the armed citizen unregulated except by his own ability to buy a gun at whatever price he could afford.” That revisionist perspective was endorsed by a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee chaired by Utah Republican Orrin Hatch in 1982, when staffers wrote a report concluding it had discovered “long lost proof” of an individual’s constitutional right to bear arms.

The NRA’s fabricated but escalating view of the Second Amendment was ridiculed by former U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger—a conservative appointed by President Richard Nixon—in a PBS Newshour interview in 1991, where he called it “one of the greatest pieces of fraud—I repeat the word ‘fraud’—on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_nra_once_supported_gun_control/

[Shamash]

47. I'm well aware of history, having lived through more of it than most

The NRA then was vastly different than the NRA now. But I do not see the gun control movement as having enough intellectual depth to recognize that a politician can be a liberal and still like to shoot. Apparently, this is not nearly liberal enough for some:



And the "ban them all" crowd would probably fail JFK on the gun purity test as well. FYI, if Ms. Giffords carried that gun into NY or CT it would be a felony with a mandatory minimum 2 year sentence.

[Electric Monk]

50. That, right there, is a perfect example of a gun nut.

You care enough to try and play "gotcha" over this shooting, because guns are too awesome to criticize.

[Shamash]

54. What you said makes no sense in the context of what I wrote

Since I did not play "gotcha" in any way and neither did I say or imply anything about guns being too awesome to criticize.

However, if you wish to disagree with my description of Gabrielle Giffords as liberal, feel free to do so, just so everyone can see how far from the mainstream your position on the issue actually is.

[Shamash]

3. Ad hominem

Saying an argument is bad because a bad person said it is one of the core logical fallacies, which you at least really ought to know by now. I don't automatically assume everything you say is wrong just because you are the one saying it. I judge what you say on its merits.

Someday, a well-informed, rational gun control advocate will present a sound argument to support their beliefs here on DU. Today is not that day.

Tomorrow does not look good, either.

[Electric Monk]

4. So you do agree with him? Just checking. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. Do you agree with the Republican governor taking down the Confederate battle flag.

I mean, it's a Republican, after all.

[Shamash]

17. I don't even know what he said

I might agree with it, I might not. But your statement is exactly as logically sound as saying "Scott Walker said the sun rose in the east this morning, so if you agree with that you are clearly on the wrong web site."

Ad hominem makes it an inherently flawed argument and that's as far as I need to pursue the matter. If you do not have the chops to make a non-flawed argument, that is not a failing on my part.

[jimmy the one]

28. shamash shams on JFK, & the benign nra

shamash: JFK was also an NRA member. Don't forget the hate he'd pick up for that. Clearly not a liberal.

I doubt JFK was a life member by choice, just that the nra awarded 'life membership' to all US presidents back then (soon to be curtailed).
As well, that was the pre-knox nra prior early 70's, the benign nra which offered all presidents honorary memberships, when nra was often for guncontrol efforts, including partially GCA68, which was also supported by Charlton heston.

And here's what JFK thought of 2ndA: “John F. Kennedy supported {2ndA} rights for Americans, saying in an April 1960 statement, “By calling attention to a well-regulated militia, the security of the nation and the right of each citizen to keep and bear arms, our founding forefathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of government tyranny, which gave rise to the Second Amendment, will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains a major declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important.” http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013/11/18/remembering-president-john-f-kennedy-nra-lifetime-member/

Shamash: Someday, a well-informed, rational gun control advocate will present a sound argument to support their beliefs here on DU...

Well, one just did to debunk your unsound notions.

In 1969, U.S. President Richard M. Nixon resigned {&/or disavowed} his honorary life membership to the NRA. 1995, former President H. W. Bush also resigned his life membership to the organization..

[clffrdjk]

41. That doesn't say what you think it says.

And here's what JFK thought of 2ndA: “John F. Kennedy supported {2ndA} rights for Americans, saying in an April 1960 statement, “By calling attention to a well-regulated militia, the security of the nation and the right of each citizen to keep and bear arms, our founding forefathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of government tyranny, which gave rise to the Second Amendment, will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains a major declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important.” http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2013/11/18/remembering-president-john-f-kennedy-nra-lifetime-member/

In 1969, U.S. President Richard M. Nixon resigned {&/or disavowed} his honorary life membership to the NRA. 1995, former President H. W. Bush also resigned his life membership to the organization..

just how is that a sound argument for gun control?

[krispos42]

5. Mmmm... purity test.

Delicious! And where do I go to sign my loyalty pledge?

[Electric Monk]

8. Shall I take this reply to mean that you side with Gov Walker (R-Wis) as well? nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. Shall I take this reply to mean you prefer women who carry for protection

to be kept defenseless if confronted by a rapist or stalker?

[sarisataka]

14. Remember...

women are responsible for whom they date. Make a bad choice and the consequences are on you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=168313

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. Well, I'm married now -- very happily so -- but if I was still a single girl

I would want to make sure any man I was with would respect me enough to allow me make my own choices about my safety. I could not see myself with some guy demanding, "Honey, you'll just have to remember to try and relax and take one for the good of society."

[Duckhunter935]

51. That was a low point for that poster

Blaming the woman for her own death and refusing to edit or apologize. Just sickening.

[krispos42]

11. Dunno, didn't read the article.

I'm at work and get shit service on my phone, and I can't eat at my desk.

Foreign Object Damage.

Why bother, when you're going to be like this?



Do you side with President Bush (R) that ketchup is a tasty condiment?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. "Do you side with President Bush (R) that ketchup is a tasty condiment?"

Why do I get the feeling the only reason why he hasn't replied to you is because he is now racing about his house throwing out bottles and packets of ketchup?

[krispos42]

40. You'll have to talk louder

I can't hear him over the roar of the crickets.

[sarisataka]

6. Have you forgotten

the Gun Control lies in bed with Bloomberg- who specifically targets Democrats in tight elections. He is responsible for helping elect Tom Cotton (R)- whom, if you recall, likes to author letters to countries, attempting to undermine President Obama's (D) negotiations.

Who are you siding with?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. "you're clearly on the wrong website"

If you side with a billionaire Republican control-freak corporatist whose policies unduly targetted minorities does that mean you're on the wrong website?

[Travis_0004]

19. There are 40 states without a waiting period on handguns

Also. If you want a waiting period, then I could understand it being on the first gun somebody owns.

What is the benefit of making somebody wait 48 hours to buy a .22 handgun, when they already own 3 other handguns?

[flamin lib]

22. Waiting periods and purchase restrictions greatly reduce gun trafficking and straw buyers.

For instance, about 15 years ago a hundred or so handguns were intercepted in NYC. The shipping manifest listed them as auto parts and they were traced back to Dallas gun stores where they were purchased over a weekend. Since SC dropped its one gun a month law the number of illegal guns from SC in neighboring states has risen dramatically. No link, working from memory but google is your friend.

[Travis_0004]

23. I'm sure somebody smuggling guns would just give up if they had to wait 48 hours.

[beevul]

24. That means alot...

In fairness, It should be pointed out, that in the below two threads about brady bunch, MDA and VPC trying to suppress a fundraiser for Democrats, EM was all over it, telling people that suppressing a fundraiser for Democrats was a terrible thing to do. He put party before issue like a champ, and now is simply asking that we do the same.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172140392

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172140350


Wait.


None of the above actually happened. That's right. None of the above, actually happened.


EM was totally silent when Democrat fundraisers were targeted by bloombergs two groups and the VPC, yet now comes over here expecting to rub our noses in something?

That means a lot, coming from the host of the Bloomberg forum GCRA.

[friendly_iconoclast]

34. *None* of the more prominent antigun types here said anything against that...

...including the OP, as you noted.

So much for their moral authority...

[beevul]

35. Precisely. N/T

[sarisataka]

37. That second link

Gun Control Groups Urge Cancellation of Hollywood Fundraiser for Mark Begich and Mark Pryor
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172140350

brought as an OP by one of the most prolific gun control posters is one of gun control's greatest success stories. Backed by Bloomberg's money and his plethora of organizations two Democratic Senators were unseated by their Tea Party opponents.

Yet gun control proponents demand purity tests and ask who do Second Amendment supporters stand with.

The complacent silence of gun control proponents shows who they stand with...

Sen. Mark Begich (D-Alaska) has conceded his hard-fought race to Sen.-elect Dan Sullivan (R-Alaska), giving the GOP what's likely to be a 54-seat Senate majority heading into next Congress.

The Associated Press called the race for Sullivan last week, but Begich refused to concede until 30,000 remaining ballots were counted. Sullivan leads Begich by 48 percent to 45 percent with most of the vote now counted.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/senate-races/224455-begich-concedes-alaska-senate-race

Republican Rep. Tom Cotton has defeated Democratic Sen. Mark Pryor in Arkansas, according to a CNN projection.

The win is one of six seats Republicans need to pick up to regain control of the Senate.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/04/politics/arkansas-senate-tom-cotton-win-digital/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. wow -- just wow nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. Bravo, I was looking for a way to tell which party I really belong to

[DonP]

27. "Most Democrats"! Damn, let's find out who didn't oppose it and get out the pitchforks and torches

Obviously they need to be purged from the party immediately. If we lose more seats, so what, at least they'll be "pure".

As our latest version of the Party Zampolit, will you be starting those recall petitions?

[Lurks Often]

29. Did I miss the memo appointing you the arbitrator of all things Democratic?

Last I looked you were merely the host of a safe haven who bans any poster not completely in lockstep with what YOU think is right.

Does your "logic" apply to not agreeing with Hillary 100% or Sanders 100% or not agreeing with the President 100%?

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. The subject of gun control at DU attracts self-appointed 'chief ideologues'...

...who sooner or later start to believe that they run the place.

[Lurks Often]

38. And when they don't get their way, they ran to the people who DO run the place

until one of them told them that they deserved the hide they got.

It's kind of understandable they are so bitter and angry, after all they've been on a pretty consistent losing streak for years now

[Duckhunter935]

52. The same host that blocked a poster

For a self delete.

[Lurks Often]

55. Someone seems to have abandoned his thread and went to GD

The OP In GD didn't last very long before it got locked.

[Duckhunter935]

56. Lol

[Matrosov]

30. No, many are on the correct website

Make no mistake about many "progressive gun owners" here being nothing more than rabid Republicans having little better to do in their lives than to pose at Democrats who just happen to regurgitate every Republican and NRA inspired talking point

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. Last I looked the #1 name in gun control is

a Republican billionaire whose policies disproportionately targeted minorities and whose campaigning for gun control gave the GOP historic wins with recall elections.

What website should his supporters post on?

[virginia mountainman]

32. Keep telling yourself that..

As statehouse, congressional, and governorships fall..

[Shamash]

39. No, we just can do just fine by repeating -your- talking points

"Law-abiding African-Americans gun owners are not responsible for the actions of the criminals who happen to be African-American gun owners, and you can't treat the law-abiding ones as potential criminals."

From the journal "How to crush any racist gun control argument", by...Matrosov

P.S.: If you have any evidence to back up your assertion about "many "progressive gun owners" here", I have left an infinite amount of comment space below for you to provide it.

[Fred Sanders]

42. I guess being at DU behind thin veils beats joining the Fox and NRA throngs on the RW sites where such folks would just blend in.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. The #1 name in gun control is --

a Republican billionaire whose policies disproportionately targeted minorities and whose campaigning for gun control gave the GOP historic wins with recall elections.

What website should his supporters post on?

[GGJohn]

57. Put your money where your mouth is and tell us who the rabid repubs here are?

That is if you have the gumption to.

[Matrosov]

58. Ha, half this group

How strange how many people here never post outside the Gun Control & RPKA group, and those who do, often aren't seen anywhere but in gun threads in General Discussion.

I'd have an easier time believing there weren't a bunch of RW trolls on here if it weren't for the fact that the people on many firearms-related and right-wing forums seem to preoccupied with trolling DU.

Google "trolling Democratic Underground" and "trolling DU" and you'll get a huge list of links to firearms/GOP/RW/88 forums, from AR15.com and even Stormfront to some place called Conservative Underground.

[Shamash]

59. Why do I need to post elsewhere?

It is seldom useful for me to post a "me too!" message on something I agree with, which is pretty much every liberal hot-button issue. I'll do it occasionally for things that are really exciting, but that is about it. This is the only issue where my fellow liberals treat me and 30% of my Democratic friends like we had swastikas carved onto our foreheads, and I consider it well worth my time to mock the ones who are beyond hope and help to educate those who are genuinely interested in learning more about a subject before forming an opinion on it.

Two things to take away from this: First, you made an accusation and when called on it, refused to back it up with anything but generalized demonization and diversion. Here, let me make it easy on you. You said:

Make no mistake about many "progressive gun owners" here being nothing more than rabid Republicans having little better to do in their lives than to pose at Democrats

So, you didn't say "all" of us. So, if you are incapable of naming the ones you think are "rabid Republicans", maybe you can narrow it down by naming some of the "progressive gun owners" here who aren't? Because if you can't or won't name anyone who is or is not, it looks an awful lot like you are just engaging in random shit-slinging to cause doubt or suspicion. You know, part of that "it is also important to take advantage of natural divisions that exist between these various groups of gun owners" that I read about somewhere. Oh right, that was you. (I love your journals, btw. I've archived copies so I can continue to quote them in case they ever disappear.)

Second, your favorite group is Gun Control & RKBA. Why can we not make the assumption that you are a right-wing plant simply trying to make Democrats look like intolerant haters? I mean, your clearly stated position is that you want to ban all gun ownership, which would cause the party to lose 3 out of 10 Democratic votes for at least a generation. Sounds like the divisive sort of thing a not-very-bright right-wing troll would try to do.

And it doesn't seem to be any flimsier than your unsupported assertion...

[GGJohn]

60. So because we support the 2A and don't post in other groups to your satisfaction,

that makes us RW trolls?

That's got to be the stupidest fucking thing I've heard all week.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

61. I'm the RW troll who spent last weekend defending Bernie Sanders.

Because that's what we do, apparently.

[GGJohn]

62. It's hilariously funny watching certain controllers here

tie themselves into knots condemning his vote on the PLCAA and how they misrepresent what it actually does.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

63. When I was defending him it wasn't even about guns but rather his pro-minority rights record.

Another RW hot button issue, as we all know.

[clffrdjk]

48. I see GD didn't care for your purity test.

[beevul]

49. Well...

Unlike SOME groups, the GD SOP actually means what it says, to the dismay of a few extremists.

[Duckhunter935]

53. And some groups SOP is like jello

As the host blocks who he disagrees with even if there is no SOP violation. Like a single self deleted post.