Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

VScott

(774 posts)
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 04:30 PM Feb 2015

FedEx refuses to ship Ghost Gunner CNC mill.

I wonder who the man (or 3 letter agency), behind the curtain is that's whispering
into FedEx's ear to initiate this cheap stunt?

The new generation of “maker” tools like 3-D printers and milling machines promises to let anyone make virtually anything—from prosthetic limbs to firearms—in the privacy and convenience of his or her own home. But first, those tools have to get to customers’ homes. That’s going to be difficult for at least one new machine with the potential to make homemade firearms, because FedEx is refusing to deliver it.

Last week FedEx told firearm-access nonprofit Defense Distributed that the company refuses to ship the group’s new tool, a computer controlled (CNC) mill known as the Ghost Gunner. Defense Distributed has marketed its one-foot-cubed $1,500 machine, which allows anyone to automatically carve aluminum objects from digital designs, as an affordable, private way to make an AR-15 rifle body without a serial number. Add in off-the-shelf parts that can be ordered online, and the Ghost Gunner would allow anyone to create one of the DIY, untraceable, semi-automatic firearms sometimes known as “ghost guns.”


http://www.wired.com/2015/02/fedex-mill-untraceable-firearms/
45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
FedEx refuses to ship Ghost Gunner CNC mill. (Original Post) VScott Feb 2015 OP
Stunt? upaloopa Feb 2015 #1
FedEx ships similarly capable machines every day. NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #3
Is it used to make AR15 type guns? upaloopa Feb 2015 #4
Any decent CNC mill can make an AR-15 hack89 Feb 2015 #5
Yes. Computer controlled machines have been around for decades. NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #6
How do you get the rest of the AR15? upaloopa Feb 2015 #8
Never even help one, but here's my understanding of the situation: NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #10
Thanks for the information. upaloopa Feb 2015 #11
They can still buy, and have FedEx ship to them, another CNC machine that does the same thing friendly_iconoclast Feb 2015 #13
Ok I get the picture. I think it may also upaloopa Feb 2015 #16
A good freind of mines brother, virginia mountainman Feb 2015 #27
It is legal to build a rifle, for your own use ONLY. oneshooter Feb 2015 #26
That is a problem my freind is runing into.. virginia mountainman Feb 2015 #28
Best bet is to hire a lawyer to contact the BATFE and request serial numbers for them. oneshooter Feb 2015 #29
Assembling your own AR is quite popular, as they are modular... friendly_iconoclast Feb 2015 #12
But if there ever was another assault weapons ban upaloopa Feb 2015 #14
Why would FedEx not ship parts? California-legal "non assault weapon" ARs use many of the same parts friendly_iconoclast Feb 2015 #15
I don't know I am not knowledgeable on upaloopa Feb 2015 #18
But you are willing to educate yourself, else you would not be asking questions friendly_iconoclast Feb 2015 #20
Well yes I wanted to understand the issue upaloopa Feb 2015 #23
There are a lot of non-assault-weapon AR-15s out there krispos42 Feb 2015 #22
I built one from parts Duckhunter935 Feb 2015 #25
The receiver is the gun krispos42 Feb 2015 #21
Correction, the Bolt carrier Group is contained in the upper, not the lower. n/t oneshooter Feb 2015 #24
Because legally the lower receiver is the gun Matrosov Feb 2015 #31
Those are good reasons for them *not* to have access to CNC machines like this. Electric Monk Feb 2015 #39
it isn't the machine, it is the software gejohnston Feb 2015 #40
So go after them WHEN they break the law. beevul Feb 2015 #44
There is a political subtext to this issue. MicaelS Feb 2015 #38
So what is your opinion of the idea of circumventing upaloopa Feb 2015 #41
What's wrong with making your own gun? krispos42 Feb 2015 #7
It seems to me there is more to making your own gun upaloopa Feb 2015 #9
It's probably cheaper krispos42 Feb 2015 #17
I understand craftsmen. It is amazing what upaloopa Feb 2015 #19
Idiots. NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #2
I see operation choke point is still in effect... ileus Feb 2015 #30
Good for FedEx! stone space Feb 2015 #32
As a UPS shareholder, I'd like to thank FedEx too. DonP Feb 2015 #33
Sorry that I have to be the bearer of bad news... VScott Feb 2015 #42
"that would make it easier for the ATF to know whom purchased and possess the devices." DonP Feb 2015 #45
Yes. Straw Man Feb 2015 #34
Merchants of Death are in a profitable business. (nt) stone space Feb 2015 #35
Alcohol retailers? Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #37
Ahh... Merchants of Death discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #43
Are we still talking about FedEx? Straw Man Feb 2015 #36

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
1. Stunt?
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 04:41 PM
Feb 2015

Explain please. We should all be in the business of making our own guns? Why is that a good thing?

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
3. FedEx ships similarly capable machines every day.
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 04:46 PM
Feb 2015

The only significant difference with this particular numerically controlled milling machine is its particular vendor and their "in your face" presentation.

Their machine ain't special, 'cept for the clever name.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
5. Any decent CNC mill can make an AR-15
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:06 PM
Feb 2015

guns are not complicated.

We are talking about it because either FedEx is ignorant about CNC machines or it is a cynical PR ploy on their part.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
6. Yes. Computer controlled machines have been around for decades.
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:07 PM
Feb 2015

And 3D "printers" are a spin-off of that technology, and more recent.

This Ghost Gunner is a 3-axis milling machine, nothing special and nothing new.

What is novel about it is that they sell the basic machine AND provide the data file that has the milling "instructions" used by the machine to cut the AR lower receiver.

Ghost Gunner is a general purpose CNC mill, built upon a large body of open source work, including the gshield 3 axis motion hardware, the grbl g-code parser and motion controller, and popular microcontrollers. All GhostGunner schematics and design files will be published into the public domain, and anyone can program anything for the machine.

As shipped, Ghost Gunner manufactures any mil-spec AR-15 lower receiver to completion. With simple tools and point and slick software, the machine automatically finds and alings to your 80% lower to get to work. No prior CNC knowledge or experience is requried to manufacture from design files. Legally manufacture unserialized AR-15's in the comfort and privacy of your home.

https://www.ghostgunner.net/


Now, it's a general purpose machine that can be used for all sorts of milling projects and should be allowed to be shipped.
And, it's by no means the only 3-axis CNC milling machine that can make an AR15 lower receiver.

It's the packaging that makes it "special".

Hope this helps.



upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
8. How do you get the rest of the AR15?
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:22 PM
Feb 2015

You buy the machine and the raw material and get the software to run it and make part of a AR15 then buy the rest of the parts?
Why not buy the AR15 built? Is there some thing about maybe a new assault weapons ban that is making this popular?
There must be more to this.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
10. Never even help one, but here's my understanding of the situation:
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:40 PM
Feb 2015

You can buy an entire AR15, but it will have a serial number on it.

Some people don't want a serial number on theirs and removing one is a crime.

But, at least in some jurisdictions, it's legal to make your own and not stamp it.

Also, but I'm less sure of this, machining a lower in a certain way can provide the full auto capability that isn't available off the shelf.

I imagine someone will come along and correct me or clarify.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
11. Thanks for the information.
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:48 PM
Feb 2015

My feeling is that some folks don't want the gun laws to have any power over their choices in this case.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
13. They can still buy, and have FedEx ship to them, another CNC machine that does the same thing
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:54 PM
Feb 2015

Or they can buy a GhostGunner mill and have UPS, USPS, or YRC Freight do the shipping...

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
16. Ok I get the picture. I think it may also
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 06:02 PM
Feb 2015

be a hobby type thing for some.
I can see gun smithing types might be interested.

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
27. A good freind of mines brother,
Wed Feb 25, 2015, 09:00 AM
Feb 2015

Has been in the hobby of making guns almost from scratch for years, by trade he is a machinist, so his hobby fits right in. In his basement, he has an assortment of old lathes and milling machines, and he turns out about one or two firearms a year for his own personal use. It is completely legal. Most he makes are single shot type firearms, but he has made a few semi-auto ones.

He has a home built version of the CETME rifle that is UTTERLY AMAZING, and is of much higher quality than you can find in any gun shop. He machined it all including the wood work, except for the barrel, and a few springs.. He even makes magazines for it, his "copy" is so good, it will accept factory made magazines..



(Not his, just a pic of one)

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
26. It is legal to build a rifle, for your own use ONLY.
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 09:46 PM
Feb 2015

That does not have a serial number. HOWEVER, you can not sell, give, or loan that weapon. To do so is a violation of Federal Law. Of you want to pass them on to your heirs then they must have a serial number that is approved by the BATFE.

If you want to sell it not only will it have to have a serial number, but you must have a Federal Firearms Manufacturer License, and whatever local licenses required by the local laws.

virginia mountainman

(5,046 posts)
28. That is a problem my freind is runing into..
Wed Feb 25, 2015, 09:02 AM
Feb 2015

His brother that makes the firearms is getting up in years,... THey are now scrambling to figure out how to legally sell them.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
29. Best bet is to hire a lawyer to contact the BATFE and request serial numbers for them.
Wed Feb 25, 2015, 09:14 AM
Feb 2015

The numbers will have to be stamped into the receivers.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
12. Assembling your own AR is quite popular, as they are modular...
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:49 PM
Feb 2015

...so the owner can build and/or modify it later exactly the way they want.

As far as the BATF (and FedEx, for that matter) are concerned, the only part that's legally
a "firearm" is the lower receiver, and that only if is finished.

IOW, FedEx will still happily ship you AR barrels, upper receivers, unfinished lower receivers, stocks, magazines, pistol grips, trigger assemblies, sights, forends/foregrips- just not Ghost Gunner CNC machines

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
20. But you are willing to educate yourself, else you would not be asking questions
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 06:15 PM
Feb 2015

And good ones they are, btw-a thirst for knowledge is always a good thing...

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
22. There are a lot of non-assault-weapon AR-15s out there
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 06:19 PM
Feb 2015

Millions were sold during the Federal ban (1994-2004)... they simply lacked the cosmetic features that defined "assault weapon".

And whether an AR-15 has an "assault weapon" feature like a telescoping stock, it still uses the same trigger parts, the same bolt, the same gas piston, the same foregrip, the same barrel, the same scope mount...

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
25. I built one from parts
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 09:45 PM
Feb 2015

very nice project and it shoots very well. Only part I had to have shipped to an FFL was the unfinished lower receiver.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
21. The receiver is the gun
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 06:17 PM
Feb 2015

From a legal standpoint, at least. It's the part that gets the serial number on it. On an AR-15, it's the part that holds the bolt and firing mechanism, and that the pistol grip, buttstock, and barrel attach to.


Everything else is generally unregulated... barrels, grips, stocks, triggers, etc. If you have an AR-15 receiver, you can mix and match parts from dozens of different companies to build the gun you want. There are thousands of combinations.


If the receiver is less than 80% complete, it's not a gun yet. I think what GhostGunner is doing is that you buy a receiver that is complete except for some holes that need to be drilled and maybe some channels that need to be cut, clamp it in their machine, and it does the rest of the work. The last 20%. THEN it's a gun. But until then, it's just a hunk of metal.


I think that in states that have an AWB (like California) you can still make your own AR-15. The legal restrictions are that you can't sell it or transfer it, ever, under any circumstances.


Since the concept of an AWB is fundamentally about culture war ("getting military style guns off the streets&quot , the restrictions are entirely arbitrary and cosmetic and generally piss people off. It's legislative harassment, basically. But it's stupid that I, as a Connecticut resident, can own a magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifle... as long as it wasn't designed by Eugene Stoner back in the 1950's or Mikhail Kalashnikov in the 1940's.

 

Matrosov

(1,098 posts)
31. Because legally the lower receiver is the gun
Wed Feb 25, 2015, 11:15 AM
Feb 2015

It's the lower receiver they want to machine. The lower receiver is what the law considers the firearm, and consequently it's the piece that has the serial number and the piece for which they have to get their FBI NICS check. All the other parts they can have mailed directly to their home.

So there are a number of reasons why they might not want to buy a whole assault rifle and instead have the lower receiver machined. Maybe they have a criminal history and wouldn't be able to pass the NICS check. Maybe they don't want there to be a paper trail with a FFL. Maybe they live in a jurisdiction where assault rifles are outlawed.

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
39. Those are good reasons for them *not* to have access to CNC machines like this.
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:40 AM
Feb 2015
Maybe they have a criminal history and wouldn't be able to pass the NICS check. ... Maybe they live in a jurisdiction where assault rifles are outlawed.


= Maybe they want to break the law with it

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
40. it isn't the machine, it is the software
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:08 AM
Feb 2015

and this guy's marketing. But you don't even need that. You know what the easiest gun to make besides a single shot zip gun? An open bolt machine gun. You don't need a CNC machine, all you need are the tools and equipment found in a 1940s bicycle repair shop. With just that, you can make one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten
Many were made by resistance groups in occupied Europe, including the Warsaw Ghetto in bike shops. While some weapons were dropped in from the outside, they also made their own machine guns, pistols, and even flame throwers.
http://www.warsawuprising.com/faq.htm
and the tradition continues with Australian biker gangs.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/04/australian-motorcycle-gang-diy-firearms-surface/
Then there is Brazil with gun laws that make Australia's look like Florida's (and several times the murder rate)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/22/common-illicitly-homemade-submachine-guns-brazil/
more examples:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/us-usa-guns-california-outlaw-idUSBREA1R06K20140228

Then there are the Mexican cartels
http://www.cryptocomb.org/ATFE%20Mexico%20Counterfeit%20Colt%20M16A2%20Rifles%20and%20M203%20Grenade%20Launchers.pdf

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
44. So go after them WHEN they break the law.
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:24 PM
Feb 2015

Prior restraint sucks, and is contrary to all that which is liberal.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
38. There is a political subtext to this issue.
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:33 AM
Feb 2015

If a person can buy a machine, that will be able to make either ALL, or the important parts for any modern gun, (like the receiver or frame that is required by law to have a serial number) OR make a brand new one-off gun, say like a one shot all plastic disposable gun, the whole issue of gun bans becomes moot. Even if the sale of all guns are banned, you could just produce what you wanted in the privacy of your own home on your machine.

And forget about "licensing or registering" 3-D printers or CNC machines, that would be like saying you want to license or register lathes and drill presses because someone could use them to make a gun.





krispos42

(49,445 posts)
7. What's wrong with making your own gun?
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:08 PM
Feb 2015

Career criminals looking to arm themselves probably aren't going to drop $1,500 on a CNC mill, more money on raw materials and tooling, and then practice making rifle receivers so he can spend another $1,000 on the barrel, stock, and mechanical innards of an AR-15 to finally assemble his own. Buying a stolen handgun for a few hundred dollars seems faster, cheaper, and more suitable for a career as a violent criminal than a four-foot-long rifle.


The only issue, I guess, would be that it would bypass some "assault weapon" bans that some states put in place. And since such bans are stupid, ineffective, culture-war laws, then legally bypassing them would be a well-deserved finger in the faces of the people that endorse such things.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
9. It seems to me there is more to making your own gun
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 05:30 PM
Feb 2015

Isn't it cheeper to buy a gun than to make it?
I see it is the assault weapons ban that is the reason for making your own parts

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
17. It's probably cheaper
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 06:04 PM
Feb 2015

However, lots of people make things themselves, to their own standards of fit and finish and design, even if it does cost more.

I'm not saying I would make my own gun, even though I'm mechanical enough and skilled enough that I could. I'm not fancy enough. But for many people out there, "stock" simply isn't enough. The grand and very useful tradition of "do it yourself", and the sort of people that will reach out and teach themselves a skill to make something that is truly theirs, still lives in America. It's the same people that customize their cars and make their own ham radios and build their own furniture.

One reason the AR-15 rifle is so popular (besides whatever political statement is made by buying one) is that it is very versatile and customizable. There are dozens of companies huge and tiny that make these rifles in different calibers, configurations, colors, lengths, innards, and such, and each one can be built upon, piece by piece, by the owner until it is perfect for them.

A quick look at MidwayUSA.com or Natchezss.com will showcase an impressive assortment of accessories and parts for AR-15 rifles.

Obviously, many of them are "tactical" accessories with a target market that includes private security, mercenary, and law enforcement as well as the private citizen concerned about home defense. Many more are competitive shooting accessories and hunting accessories.




Will less than 300 people a year being murdered with rifles of all make and models and types, I simply am not going to worry about the craftsman that wants to make their own AR-15.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
19. I understand craftsmen. It is amazing what
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 06:13 PM
Feb 2015

some people can make. If it is a lasting kind of thing it gives a certain immortality
In Vietnam some guys had custom stocks on their M-14. I kinda wanted one but I never got the chance.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
33. As a UPS shareholder, I'd like to thank FedEx too.
Thu Feb 26, 2015, 02:08 PM
Feb 2015

Please encourage these ignorant a-holes to stop shipping anything that might be used to make a firearm (perfectly legal) at home including hand tools, lathes, drill presses and any other milling machines and any end mill bits that they have been shipping for deacdes.

Wait, just to be safe, we better have them ban shipping plastics, metal powder and anything that might someday be used in a 3D printer as well.

Now I feel better and in a while better off financially too.

 

VScott

(774 posts)
42. Sorry that I have to be the bearer of bad news...
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:52 PM
Feb 2015

FedEx and UPS refuse to ship machine that makes 'ghost guns'

In a statement given to Wired magazine, FedEx explained its reasons for the ban. "This device is capable of manufacturing firearms, and potentially by private individuals," said the company. "We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated commodity by local, state, or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device until we know more about how it will be regulated."

UPS echoed these sentiments, saying that it "reserves the right to refuse to provide transportation service for, among other reasons, any shipments that create legal, safety or operational concerns." It added that the company was "continuing to evaluate such concerns with regard to the transportation of milling machines used to produce operable firearms but, at this point in time, will not accept such devices for transportation.


http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/26/8113047/fedex-ups-wont-ship-ghost-gunner-mill

It'll be interesting to see if the USPS follows suit.

If they don't go down that path, it'll be even more interesting as it could easily create a situation that
would make it easier for the ATF to know whom purchased and possess the devices.
 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
45. "that would make it easier for the ATF to know whom purchased and possess the devices."
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:25 PM
Feb 2015

Gee, kind of like Bush and Cheney tracking who took what books out of the library, huh? IIRC everybody here was really upset about that.

Who would have thought a progressive administration would spy on its citizens, use drones to kill civilians and now track what legal products citizens bought ... for the greater good? Might make sense if somebody could point to a crime with a home made AR15 lower.

The same machines, sans the "ghost gun" label, are perfectly legal and are still being sold under less dramatic names as table top 2 and 3 axis mills.

Hell, you can even use a cheapie Harbor Freight drill press to machine an AR lower. How far are they willing to go to try and stop this?

More proof that gun controllers are truly stupid people.

Straw Man

(6,622 posts)
34. Yes.
Thu Feb 26, 2015, 02:20 PM
Feb 2015
Good for FedEx!

I've always felt that private corporations should be able to impose their particular versions of morality on the public, using the bully pulpit of a virtual monopoly.

I can hardly wait until Internet and other media service providers start to throw their weight around in a similar manner.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,479 posts)
43. Ahh... Merchants of Death
Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:24 PM
Feb 2015

I remember that phrase and noted in the same place the info that some the world's biggest arms suppliers are the U.S., U.K., Russia, France and China. And that they are also the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. Governments will always be working to limit arms from some and supply arms to others. Right and wrong are, shall we say, a bit fluid in that sphere of influence.

Pro-control often tells me that 90% of the people favor UBCs and that it is a corrupting influence that swayed legislators from making that the law. Aren't those legislators questionable for allowing that influence? Is it okay to allow a government subject to outside influence to remain armed? Is it wise, while accepting that government's possession and (sometimes vial) use of arms, to endorse general civilian disarmament?

Be safe, make your own decisions and plan for your children and their children.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»FedEx refuses to ship Gho...