Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumFedEx refuses to ship Ghost Gunner CNC mill.
I wonder who the man (or 3 letter agency), behind the curtain is that's whispering
into FedEx's ear to initiate this cheap stunt?
Last week FedEx told firearm-access nonprofit Defense Distributed that the company refuses to ship the groups new tool, a computer controlled (CNC) mill known as the Ghost Gunner. Defense Distributed has marketed its one-foot-cubed $1,500 machine, which allows anyone to automatically carve aluminum objects from digital designs, as an affordable, private way to make an AR-15 rifle body without a serial number. Add in off-the-shelf parts that can be ordered online, and the Ghost Gunner would allow anyone to create one of the DIY, untraceable, semi-automatic firearms sometimes known as ghost guns.
http://www.wired.com/2015/02/fedex-mill-untraceable-firearms/
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Explain please. We should all be in the business of making our own guns? Why is that a good thing?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)The only significant difference with this particular numerically controlled milling machine is its particular vendor and their "in your face" presentation.
Their machine ain't special, 'cept for the clever name.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Or any gun?
Why are gun owners talking about this?
hack89
(39,171 posts)guns are not complicated.
We are talking about it because either FedEx is ignorant about CNC machines or it is a cynical PR ploy on their part.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And 3D "printers" are a spin-off of that technology, and more recent.
This Ghost Gunner is a 3-axis milling machine, nothing special and nothing new.
What is novel about it is that they sell the basic machine AND provide the data file that has the milling "instructions" used by the machine to cut the AR lower receiver.
As shipped, Ghost Gunner manufactures any mil-spec AR-15 lower receiver to completion. With simple tools and point and slick software, the machine automatically finds and alings to your 80% lower to get to work. No prior CNC knowledge or experience is requried to manufacture from design files. Legally manufacture unserialized AR-15's in the comfort and privacy of your home.
https://www.ghostgunner.net/
Now, it's a general purpose machine that can be used for all sorts of milling projects and should be allowed to be shipped.
And, it's by no means the only 3-axis CNC milling machine that can make an AR15 lower receiver.
It's the packaging that makes it "special".
Hope this helps.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)You buy the machine and the raw material and get the software to run it and make part of a AR15 then buy the rest of the parts?
Why not buy the AR15 built? Is there some thing about maybe a new assault weapons ban that is making this popular?
There must be more to this.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)You can buy an entire AR15, but it will have a serial number on it.
Some people don't want a serial number on theirs and removing one is a crime.
But, at least in some jurisdictions, it's legal to make your own and not stamp it.
Also, but I'm less sure of this, machining a lower in a certain way can provide the full auto capability that isn't available off the shelf.
I imagine someone will come along and correct me or clarify.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)My feeling is that some folks don't want the gun laws to have any power over their choices in this case.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Or they can buy a GhostGunner mill and have UPS, USPS, or YRC Freight do the shipping...
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)be a hobby type thing for some.
I can see gun smithing types might be interested.
virginia mountainman
(5,046 posts)Has been in the hobby of making guns almost from scratch for years, by trade he is a machinist, so his hobby fits right in. In his basement, he has an assortment of old lathes and milling machines, and he turns out about one or two firearms a year for his own personal use. It is completely legal. Most he makes are single shot type firearms, but he has made a few semi-auto ones.
He has a home built version of the CETME rifle that is UTTERLY AMAZING, and is of much higher quality than you can find in any gun shop. He machined it all including the wood work, except for the barrel, and a few springs.. He even makes magazines for it, his "copy" is so good, it will accept factory made magazines..
(Not his, just a pic of one)
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)That does not have a serial number. HOWEVER, you can not sell, give, or loan that weapon. To do so is a violation of Federal Law. Of you want to pass them on to your heirs then they must have a serial number that is approved by the BATFE.
If you want to sell it not only will it have to have a serial number, but you must have a Federal Firearms Manufacturer License, and whatever local licenses required by the local laws.
virginia mountainman
(5,046 posts)His brother that makes the firearms is getting up in years,... THey are now scrambling to figure out how to legally sell them.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)The numbers will have to be stamped into the receivers.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...so the owner can build and/or modify it later exactly the way they want.
As far as the BATF (and FedEx, for that matter) are concerned, the only part that's legally
a "firearm" is the lower receiver, and that only if is finished.
IOW, FedEx will still happily ship you AR barrels, upper receivers, unfinished lower receivers, stocks, magazines, pistol grips, trigger assemblies, sights, forends/foregrips- just not Ghost Gunner CNC machines
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)would the ship the other parts?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)the subject
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)And good ones they are, btw-a thirst for knowledge is always a good thing...
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)Millions were sold during the Federal ban (1994-2004)... they simply lacked the cosmetic features that defined "assault weapon".
And whether an AR-15 has an "assault weapon" feature like a telescoping stock, it still uses the same trigger parts, the same bolt, the same gas piston, the same foregrip, the same barrel, the same scope mount...
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)very nice project and it shoots very well. Only part I had to have shipped to an FFL was the unfinished lower receiver.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)From a legal standpoint, at least. It's the part that gets the serial number on it. On an AR-15, it's the part that holds the bolt and firing mechanism, and that the pistol grip, buttstock, and barrel attach to.
Everything else is generally unregulated... barrels, grips, stocks, triggers, etc. If you have an AR-15 receiver, you can mix and match parts from dozens of different companies to build the gun you want. There are thousands of combinations.
If the receiver is less than 80% complete, it's not a gun yet. I think what GhostGunner is doing is that you buy a receiver that is complete except for some holes that need to be drilled and maybe some channels that need to be cut, clamp it in their machine, and it does the rest of the work. The last 20%. THEN it's a gun. But until then, it's just a hunk of metal.
I think that in states that have an AWB (like California) you can still make your own AR-15. The legal restrictions are that you can't sell it or transfer it, ever, under any circumstances.
Since the concept of an AWB is fundamentally about culture war ("getting military style guns off the streets" , the restrictions are entirely arbitrary and cosmetic and generally piss people off. It's legislative harassment, basically. But it's stupid that I, as a Connecticut resident, can own a magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifle... as long as it wasn't designed by Eugene Stoner back in the 1950's or Mikhail Kalashnikov in the 1940's.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Matrosov
(1,098 posts)It's the lower receiver they want to machine. The lower receiver is what the law considers the firearm, and consequently it's the piece that has the serial number and the piece for which they have to get their FBI NICS check. All the other parts they can have mailed directly to their home.
So there are a number of reasons why they might not want to buy a whole assault rifle and instead have the lower receiver machined. Maybe they have a criminal history and wouldn't be able to pass the NICS check. Maybe they don't want there to be a paper trail with a FFL. Maybe they live in a jurisdiction where assault rifles are outlawed.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)= Maybe they want to break the law with it
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)and this guy's marketing. But you don't even need that. You know what the easiest gun to make besides a single shot zip gun? An open bolt machine gun. You don't need a CNC machine, all you need are the tools and equipment found in a 1940s bicycle repair shop. With just that, you can make one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten
Many were made by resistance groups in occupied Europe, including the Warsaw Ghetto in bike shops. While some weapons were dropped in from the outside, they also made their own machine guns, pistols, and even flame throwers.
http://www.warsawuprising.com/faq.htm
and the tradition continues with Australian biker gangs.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/04/australian-motorcycle-gang-diy-firearms-surface/
Then there is Brazil with gun laws that make Australia's look like Florida's (and several times the murder rate)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/22/common-illicitly-homemade-submachine-guns-brazil/
more examples:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/us-usa-guns-california-outlaw-idUSBREA1R06K20140228
Then there are the Mexican cartels
http://www.cryptocomb.org/ATFE%20Mexico%20Counterfeit%20Colt%20M16A2%20Rifles%20and%20M203%20Grenade%20Launchers.pdf
beevul
(12,194 posts)Prior restraint sucks, and is contrary to all that which is liberal.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)If a person can buy a machine, that will be able to make either ALL, or the important parts for any modern gun, (like the receiver or frame that is required by law to have a serial number) OR make a brand new one-off gun, say like a one shot all plastic disposable gun, the whole issue of gun bans becomes moot. Even if the sale of all guns are banned, you could just produce what you wanted in the privacy of your own home on your machine.
And forget about "licensing or registering" 3-D printers or CNC machines, that would be like saying you want to license or register lathes and drill presses because someone could use them to make a gun.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)a gun ban?
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Career criminals looking to arm themselves probably aren't going to drop $1,500 on a CNC mill, more money on raw materials and tooling, and then practice making rifle receivers so he can spend another $1,000 on the barrel, stock, and mechanical innards of an AR-15 to finally assemble his own. Buying a stolen handgun for a few hundred dollars seems faster, cheaper, and more suitable for a career as a violent criminal than a four-foot-long rifle.
The only issue, I guess, would be that it would bypass some "assault weapon" bans that some states put in place. And since such bans are stupid, ineffective, culture-war laws, then legally bypassing them would be a well-deserved finger in the faces of the people that endorse such things.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Isn't it cheeper to buy a gun than to make it?
I see it is the assault weapons ban that is the reason for making your own parts
krispos42
(49,445 posts)However, lots of people make things themselves, to their own standards of fit and finish and design, even if it does cost more.
I'm not saying I would make my own gun, even though I'm mechanical enough and skilled enough that I could. I'm not fancy enough. But for many people out there, "stock" simply isn't enough. The grand and very useful tradition of "do it yourself", and the sort of people that will reach out and teach themselves a skill to make something that is truly theirs, still lives in America. It's the same people that customize their cars and make their own ham radios and build their own furniture.
One reason the AR-15 rifle is so popular (besides whatever political statement is made by buying one) is that it is very versatile and customizable. There are dozens of companies huge and tiny that make these rifles in different calibers, configurations, colors, lengths, innards, and such, and each one can be built upon, piece by piece, by the owner until it is perfect for them.
A quick look at MidwayUSA.com or Natchezss.com will showcase an impressive assortment of accessories and parts for AR-15 rifles.
Obviously, many of them are "tactical" accessories with a target market that includes private security, mercenary, and law enforcement as well as the private citizen concerned about home defense. Many more are competitive shooting accessories and hunting accessories.
Will less than 300 people a year being murdered with rifles of all make and models and types, I simply am not going to worry about the craftsman that wants to make their own AR-15.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)some people can make. If it is a lasting kind of thing it gives a certain immortality
In Vietnam some guys had custom stocks on their M-14. I kinda wanted one but I never got the chance.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Of course they don't want to be caught up in a lawsuit but seriously... Stupidity.
ileus
(15,396 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)DonP
(6,185 posts)Please encourage these ignorant a-holes to stop shipping anything that might be used to make a firearm (perfectly legal) at home including hand tools, lathes, drill presses and any other milling machines and any end mill bits that they have been shipping for deacdes.
Wait, just to be safe, we better have them ban shipping plastics, metal powder and anything that might someday be used in a 3D printer as well.
Now I feel better and in a while better off financially too.
VScott
(774 posts)FedEx and UPS refuse to ship machine that makes 'ghost guns'
UPS echoed these sentiments, saying that it "reserves the right to refuse to provide transportation service for, among other reasons, any shipments that create legal, safety or operational concerns." It added that the company was "continuing to evaluate such concerns with regard to the transportation of milling machines used to produce operable firearms but, at this point in time, will not accept such devices for transportation.
http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/26/8113047/fedex-ups-wont-ship-ghost-gunner-mill
It'll be interesting to see if the USPS follows suit.
If they don't go down that path, it'll be even more interesting as it could easily create a situation that
would make it easier for the ATF to know whom purchased and possess the devices.
DonP
(6,185 posts)Gee, kind of like Bush and Cheney tracking who took what books out of the library, huh? IIRC everybody here was really upset about that.
Who would have thought a progressive administration would spy on its citizens, use drones to kill civilians and now track what legal products citizens bought ... for the greater good? Might make sense if somebody could point to a crime with a home made AR15 lower.
The same machines, sans the "ghost gun" label, are perfectly legal and are still being sold under less dramatic names as table top 2 and 3 axis mills.
Hell, you can even use a cheapie Harbor Freight drill press to machine an AR lower. How far are they willing to go to try and stop this?
More proof that gun controllers are truly stupid people.
Straw Man
(6,622 posts)I've always felt that private corporations should be able to impose their particular versions of morality on the public, using the bully pulpit of a virtual monopoly.
I can hardly wait until Internet and other media service providers start to throw their weight around in a similar manner.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)I remember that phrase and noted in the same place the info that some the world's biggest arms suppliers are the U.S., U.K., Russia, France and China. And that they are also the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. Governments will always be working to limit arms from some and supply arms to others. Right and wrong are, shall we say, a bit fluid in that sphere of influence.
Pro-control often tells me that 90% of the people favor UBCs and that it is a corrupting influence that swayed legislators from making that the law. Aren't those legislators questionable for allowing that influence? Is it okay to allow a government subject to outside influence to remain armed? Is it wise, while accepting that government's possession and (sometimes vial) use of arms, to endorse general civilian disarmament?
Be safe, make your own decisions and plan for your children and their children.
Straw Man
(6,622 posts)Or what?