Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumOpen-carry rally held to protest Walmart shooting
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/crime-law/open-carry-rally-held-protest-walmart-shooting/nhb4P/Posted: 12:43 p.m. Saturday, Oct. 4, 2014
By Breaking News Staff
BEAVERCREEK —
About 40 people, some openly carrying firearms, gathered to protest the police-involved Walmart shooting and show support for the family of John Crawford III.
Several protesters were carrying signs, wearing "anonymous" masks and shirts that said "I am John Crawford" as they marched along Pentagon Boulevard.
Some of the protesters who were openly carrying firearms, including rifles, walked into the Walmart after rallying by the street.
They could be seen chatting and interacting with other customers.
The Beavercreek Walmart has put a hold on the sale of the air rifles that Crawford was carrying the night he was shot.
This is *obviously* staged- I mean, really? White AR owners hanging with African-Americans in support of justice for an African-American man? No Confederate flags on display?
No one shot or fleeing in terror from the Walmart? Unpossible!
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NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Here:
John Crawford was openly carrying an air rifle in Walmart after someone else removed it from the package and left it on the shelf. Surveillance video shows that he never pointed the gun at anyone and carried it on his shoulder or pointed it in the ground. A 911 caller repeatedly lied and even told police that Crawford was pointing the gun at children and was loading it with bullets. The subsequent brutal response from police is a clear attack on Ohioans rights to open carry firearms.
We are asking that you bring your favorite firearm with you to open carry, and also that in order to minimize risk of accidental discharge and maximize safety, you do not chamber a round into your firearm, especially if it's an unholstered rifle. Please practice safety at all times.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1569676486594044/
More images here:
&feature=youtu.be
ileus
(15,396 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)The Breaking News Staff of the Dayton paper uses such delicate phrasing! I guess that means that police participated in the shooting in some way... Golly, I wonder how?
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)1., 2., 3., and 5.
Watch the sequenced videotape/911 call and imagine the man on the left holding his weapon in a firing position turned to his side to you. You order him to drop his weapon and he makes a sudden move (in Crawford's case he was startled).
I think carrying long rifles into a store to be insanely stupid. The front slinging should not be allowed in a public setting. It makes the rifle immediately accessible for shooting.
I have a difficult time accepting our society in which we allow mildly dangerous weapons look like very lethal weapons. I can't imagine a store which lets such things be open on the shelves unpackaged. I also can't belief that folks are walking around like this in stores instead of the woods hunting deer or on the firing range where they belong.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It's incumbent upon the officers to wonder about these things and not shoot first, find out it's a toy gun later.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)It looked like a real rifle. It should not have been out of its box. The only information the police had at the time was from the 911 caller who did make false statements. If you are assessing the guilt of the officers you have to deal with the information they had at the time. Do I think they fired too quickly - yes, but they had no way of knowing that the gun was not a lethal semiautomatic rifle. I think Walmart shold pay a hefty settlement to the family for having an unboxed simulated rifle on display. I don't know if the 911 caller violated any laws, but he is also culpable.
I don't think it matters the race of Crawford in this case. Another example of too quick on the trigger was Christopher Roupe in Georgia who was white. He was shot at his door and was possibly holding a Wi controller or something else that looks like a gun. The officer in that case was no billed.
So long as we are awash in a sea of guns cops who want to go home to their families are going to want to error on the side of caution. I watched the synced 911/video of the shooting several times. What I saw was about a 1 to 2 second delay from the first clear command to drop the weapon. What Crawford did, which was natural, was acted startled and made a sudden move crouching and turning his body. That was when the two shots were fired. Crawford then naturally runs away form the shooter. I think he sees the other cop at the end of the other aisle. He then proceeds to run back to towards the fallen gun and appears to reach downward (or starts to fall forward from his momentum). I was a little surprised that he was not shot again at that moment.
You could change the rules of engagement for the police to only fire when a shot has actually been fired. One thing that will get you shot is making a sudden move with something that looks like a semiautomatic rifle.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)We're not in Korea or Nam or Afghanistan, for crying out loud.
Cops need to tread lightly. They do NOT own the private property which is Walmart, and they do NOT have carte blanche shoot em if you're not sure permission to fire on people with plastic non-working guns.
If that's an acceptable thing from your POV, I dare you to post a DU poll on the matter and see what other progressives say about it.
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 11, 2014, 07:11 PM - Edit history (1)
...and are not sold in toys but in sporting goods in sealed boxes.
And if he had wanted to buy one he would have needed the barcode on the box, plus he might have wanted the directions, warranty, the clip that holds the pellets so you can shoot it plus the front and rear sights that are in the box and not attached when you buy it.
Also bad idea to carry this around a store out of the box: ('cause someone might think it's real and call the cops)
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)If pellet guns are not toy guns, then it's fair to say that BB guns aren't either.
Both can be used to kill birds and small mammals.
I have an R20 that cost a few hundred dollars and will penetrate a 50 gallon drum.
I don't call it a toy, so I get your point.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)The Crossman MK-177 sells for $99 and is clearly designed to look scary.
http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pump/30117
Too bad that Walmart left one laying around.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)Racists, bigots, cowards, intimidation...
PENIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Normally I disapprove of carrying guns in connection with spreading a message, but in this case I may have to make an exception.
beevul
(12,194 posts)I believe we have posters here who advocate shooting open carriers.
And I believe that there have been documented tweets of anti-gun members of anti-gun groups asserting that should be done, even hoping for it.
I'm sure some of the sensible reasonable folks from the anti-camp will chime in and denounce such things. 
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...where the side with the weaker stance will often tolerate injustice. 
beevul
(12,194 posts)Either way, its capricious.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)is exactly what has been advocated here.
If you see someone carrying a gun, call 911. Tell police they are "threatening" people with it to be sure police show up. When the possible ramifications of such action were pointed out the reply was akin to if you have a gun you have to take your chances. Public safety trumped individual safety because anyone can just snap at any time.
Yet when an incident occurred as recommended, suddenly the tune changed.
Undoubtedly race was a factor in the shooting but I cannot help but wonder what the reaction would be had the victim been Hispanic, Asian or Caucasian.
DonP
(6,185 posts)From their website - now scrubbed, reacting to a photo of a man open carrying a rifle slung over his back, no magazine in the well.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...shoot a Walmart? I know Walmart isn't any kind of a favored store but that doesn't warrant shooting the store.
My correction (more to the point): About 40 people, some openly carrying firearms, gathered to protest the mistaken killing of John Crawford III by police and to show support for Crawford's family.
AFAIK, John Crawford III was shot (and died due to that).
AFAIK, no one has alleged that anyone other than law enforcement was involved in the shooting.
AFAIK, this incident was recorded on store security video.
AFAIK, there is no basis to infer anything other than that police over-reacted and killed Crawford by mistake.
Will any of this soft reporting help? No.
Will the protest help call attention to trigger happy cops? I hope so.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)For some, these issues are uncreasingly difficult to scrub away till you get only black & white. I'll have to see how it fared.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)otohara
(24,135 posts)about one dead guy.
Isn't the motto of die-hard gun owners - the dead don't trump our Constitutional rights?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)As I see it: About 40 people, some openly carrying firearms, gathered to protest the mistaken killing of John Crawford III by police and to show support for Crawford's family.
AFAIK, John Crawford III was shot (and died due to that).
AFAIK, no one has alleged that anyone other than law enforcement was involved in the shooting.
AFAIK, this incident was recorded on store security video.
AFAIK, there is no basis to infer anything other than that police over-reacted and killed Crawford by mistake.
The police over-reacted.
Rights do indeed trump somethings. Despite continued DUI and alcohol related deaths, prohibition is wrong.
Crawford was killed because cops thought he was armed. He hadn't shot anyone, they had no first person evidence he was violent. He was killed simply because they thought he was armed. Being armed and carrying is exactly what the RKBA is all about. Even if he was exercising that right it shouldn't have gotten him killed. Were you trying to imply that the protesters who carried were somehow being hypocritical?
I'm not a fan of open carry. I'm also not a fan of cops who get the order wrong of "Stop or I'll shoot" and "Bang, you're dead".
otohara
(24,135 posts)gun nuts never get shot.
They are never told to drop their weapons or told stop or we'll shoot.
Even when they are stalking women in a restaurant.
The cops never harass the White OC men and women.
Keep rationalizing death by overarmed pumped up racist cops - it seems to make all this death acceptable in the name
of gun rights for white men.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)or racist cops? I vote lingering institutional racism (and sexism) in the legal system. Or how about why many gun laws were passed to begin with? Florida banned open carry in 1893 because many African American migrant workers OCed, which didn't go well with many whites. See Watson v Stone 1941 Florida Supreme Court.
otohara
(24,135 posts)Ronald Reagan pushed for gun control in CA in the 1960's. The NRA supported his ban because it was aimed at curtailing the Black Panther movement.
A proposed law in Wyoming that would charge federal officials or agents with a felony who “attempts to enforce an act, order, law, statute, rule or regulation of the United States government” on a person’s firearm or ammunition. Imagine the panic if this were proposed in Louisiana. The NRA would support Wyoming, but not Louisiana based on what they did in Cali for St. Ronnie.
When White gun extremists post photos of their children with big scary weapons it's perfectly okay. When a Black child holding a gun is posted, the response is White outrage and the Police get involved too. Bill Scott, an LAPD Commander, made the following comment after the photo, it's a culture of violence; When you grow up in a culture like that, violence becomes secondary. It becomes second nature. And that’s the cycle we’re trying to disrupt.”
When this is pointed out to the White gun extremists, the revert to name calling and Hitler.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Shaneen Allen, the racist claim falls short.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)the 1960s were before the 1977 Cincinnati convention. As for open carriers being extremists, I compare them to flag burners, whatever point they are trying to make is lost in the spectacle. That said, I'm not a fan of MSNBC cropping a photo of an AA open carrier and claim that he was some kind of white racist either.
Nixon wasn't exactly a RKBA supporter either. Not that it matters, and I don't know what Reagan has to do with anything, since neither him, Nixon, DiFi, or Holder has anything to do with my opinion on the issue, nor do any of them speak for me.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)...well, maybe in your mind. 
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)Trumps rights and lives
Isn't it the motto of die hard gun control proponents
It is a threat which should be dealt with as such.
Harshly and with extreme prejudice.
"When you see open carry, call 911"
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)and pumped a little fear in it for the cops and they ended up killing a person. I know they will all be calling for people not to do that now, right?
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Like keeping your guns at HOME. People should call 911 when local yokels threaten our safety over their paranoia.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)with the death of Mr. Crawford.
People saw what appeared to be a gun, called 911 because it was a threat. Police responded, seeing a man holding a gun and, as we have been told people can snap at any time, took immediate action to end the threat for the public good.
In such a hi-risk, hi-threat situation there is no time to ascertain a person's motives or determine if the gun s real.
It reminds me of the clash song, Know Your Rights:
Murder is a CRIME!
Unless it was done by a
Policeman or aristocrat
Know your rights
***
You have the right to free
Speech as long as you're not
Dumb enough to actually try it.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)And yet the only person shot and killed in this situation was doing something
perfectly legal that many others have done in that very same store.
Remind us again just exactly who was "threaten(ing) our safety over
their paranoia"...
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)Really, lots of people break open the box, take out the pellet rifle and walk around the store with it with no basket or other items?
Very bad idea as was plainly illustrated here.
Personally if I was buying one I would want one in the box so i could check out (need the barcode) and so i would have the front and rear sights, the clip the pellets go in and the directions.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)put it down and take a complete one in the box. It happens all the time. Not bright to walk around with it but not illegal. The illegal part everybody is glossing over is lying to the 911 operator about pointing the weapon and threatening people. This behavior has been called for by some on DU and should be strongly rebuffed by all and I hope someone is charged for a crime over this false report.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)happened to Mr. Crawford. It has been stated many times on DU to say a legal open carrier is threatening and pointing a weapon when calling 911. That is exactly what happened here and an innocent person was killed.
I hope you do not advocate this type of 911 call and will point out to others it is wrong. Those are the people that seem to be scared of a non-issue.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)The Beavercreek Walmart has put a hold on the sale of the air rifles that Crawford was carrying the night he was shot.
Would WalMart do the same thing if Crawford had been carrying a shot gun sold in WalMart. I highly doubt it. Cops should go to jail, and WalMart should get the shit sued out of them. Their security should have handled this. They have cameras, why wasn't anybody alerted that the gestapo was on their way.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)includes the manager carrying it to the door in the box for you. Personally, I prefer to do business with the locally owned establishments when it comes to all things as much as possible.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I bought my Colt AR from them and that is exactly what happened.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...not Wallyworld. Once someone calls 911 and claims that someone is pointing a firearm at people, cops aren't going to stop and consult with the mall ninjas that they
hold in only slightly higher esteem than the public at large (i.e., not very highly at all)
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)a firearm at Walmart is at the firearm counter with an employee present, they are in locked cases. After you pass the background check and make the purchase a manager is called and carries the weapon boxed for you outside the store exit.
So lesson learned here is do not unbox a real looking pellet gun and walk around the store with it. And more importantly do not be so paranoid of OC and weapon that you have to call 911 and lie to the police to get a quicker reaction. That gets people killed.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)a firearm at Walmart is at the firearm counter with an employee present, they are in locked cases. After you pass the background check and make the purchase a manager is called and carries the weapon boxed for you outside the store exit.
I bought a CZ bolt-action .22 rifle from them. Not only did I have to be walked out of the store with the manager carrying the rifle in its box, but they insisted on putting a trigger lock on the rifle when they unboxed it to confirm the serial number. I tried pointing out to them that this wasn't necessary, since the bolt was not installed in the rifle. This is akin to locking the doors of a car that has no wheels on it. However, they insisted, citing store policy.
