Way to go Murka! Goons with guns duded up in military fatigues were joy-riding on ATVs.

[Starboard Tack]

Goons with guns duded up in military fatigues were joy-riding on ATVs when they halted three bat counters near Sonoita, Az. No really. The scientists were doing genuine research when a bunch of self-appointed border militia stumbled across them. Apparently these untrained gunmen cannot tell the difference between trained researchers and undocumented immigrants or drug traffickers.
This is the second time uninvited border gunmen have caused a problem for this group of conservationists. The researchers who were conducting a wildlife population survey asked for anonymity, because their work is often in this location, and they don’t really trust the border militias. One said, “When the spotlight came on, we just waved at them. We didn’t know what they were doing. We started hiding behind rocks. We’re not doing what they’re saying, and they’re acting kind of jumpy. … We had them yelling at us with spotlights, acting like they have some kind of authority.”
The unregulated gunslingers who dress up in camouflage and heavily arm themselves have become an increasing concern for law enforcement officials, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. In the report police filed with the Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office, the gunmen playing soldiers “confronted the scientists, shining a spotlight on them and yelling in Spanish.”

The researchers were standing on a “narrow, high ridge,” and the arms-ladened volunteer militia were yelling up at them from below, telling them to wait. The conservationists told them they were “U.S. citizens conducting a wildlife survey.” When the scientists understood that the militia weren’t Border Patrol, they continued on their way back to camp.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/08/pretend-border-militia-capture-bat-counting-scientists/

They missed the opportunity to kill some Mexican/Guatemalan/Honduran kids. Yep, that Second Amendment really rocks!

[samsingh]

1. since they are already dressed up, maybe they could be sent to iraq and be real soldiers.

[DashOneBravo]

7. I agree

But they won't do that.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Shall we scrap the Second Amendment because of five assholes?

This is certainly bad behavior and I would like to see charges filed or some sensible regulations created to prevent this kind of stupid and dangerous shit.

But using it as a way to bash the second amendment " Yep, that Second Amendment really rocks!" doesn't strike me as constructive discussion.

So, what are some ways this kind of assholery can be discouraged?

[Starboard Tack]

4. Maybe a rewrite is in order, so that shit like this does not and cannot happen

These 5 assholes are not the only examples of how the current interpretation of 2A contributes to an ever diminishing respect for the US and its Constitution. The discussion is yours to have. Thankfully, I am no longer a part of it. If my comments seemed too harsh, then I can only ask that you take them in context. I mean no offense. I love the US and I respect the Constitution. I do not like to see it decline like this and I blame part of that decline on the abuse of the Second Amendment by assholes like these guys. Abuse which is enabled by RW politicians and the most recent decisions by the SCOTUS regarding 2A. It gives me no pleasure to see the country I called home for so long being ridiculed by the rest of the world. But that is the reality.

The fact that the "victims" in this case were scientific researchers and not poor migrants looking for a better life, only serves to spotlight the real problem.
I can see why many liberal Democrats express support for 2A, but in light of the reality of the situation, I think they are being extremely naive. Noble ideas can often backfire, especially when those on the other side of the political spectrum constitute the vast majority of gun owners and almost all of the whack jobs. The likelihood of civilians needing guns to fight an invader or an oppressive government is ZERO, in real terms. The likelihood of fighting each other for resources, power and control, after the shit hits the fan, which it almost certainly will eventually, is a far greater reality. I wish you all well.

[Eleanors38]

5. "Rewriting" 2A: We'll doze thru your every move.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

51. Five?

You think these five are the only five armed asses out there? I think we've seen tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands or even millions of armed people arrested in America over the years. Why do we treat each incident of 'idiots with guns' as if it's some unique, isolated event, instead of simply one more in a neverending stream of similar events?

[gejohnston]

3. Guilt by association?

I thought you had more class than that. These assholes should be charged with false imprisonment and whatever else there is evidence of.

[The Green Manalishi]

6. As I've said before: I'm highly RKBA, but...

*ANY* misuse of any firearm, ever, most specifically including pointing it at anyone in other than self defense should result in life in prison with no parole.

[DashOneBravo]

8. Observation

You post a lot in this forum for someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight.

Ever heard of Lee Rigby?

[pablo_marmol]

9. + 1,000 NT

[Starboard Tack]

10. I find the subject interesting

I have thoughts, ideas, an occasional opinion, but not a side. When I say I have no dog in this fight, I mean nothing to lose or gain personally. I have always found America's love of guns fascinating and find the arguments from both sides very enlightening.
I've always been attracted to discussions that provoke extreme responses. I strive to be a voice of reason, yet often find myselfthe target of derision by both sides in debates like this. I rarely encounter such extreme views IRL as I do here. That's why I post here.

[Starboard Tack]

11. what's your point with Lee Rigby?

[NYC_SKP]

12. Good question.

I have no idea, could it be that the murderers had guns and knives but only used knives?

Either way, I don't see it as having much to do with your OP.



PS, thanks for your contributions and civility in your posts to this group.

[Starboard Tack]

13. Thanks, and the feeling is mutual.

It isn't always easy when so many think you are the "enemy", but I'm pretty much done responding to anyone who is not interested in a conversation. That means civil disagreement.

[DashOneBravo]

14. Off topic

See below and I will remain civil.

[DashOneBravo]

15. Off topic from OP

Last edited Fri Sep 12, 2014, 11:47 PM - Edit history (3)

My apology, I'm sometimes vague. It was more related to the 2A.

I have several friends who are ex Brit grunts. One of them sent me a meme, of the infamous picture of the guy with the cleaver. Basically it said " This is the reason in America they carry guns." They are pissed that even as trained soldiers they are not allowed them.

Firearms are used everyday to protect people and Lee Rigby is a prime example of what can happen with a total ban.

I'm sure you won't mind it being off topic. You bring up Ileus's family a bunch.

Hope all is well.

[Starboard Tack]

16. Again, I don't see any relevance.

Lee Rigby was murdered by deluded idiots. To use his murder as an excuse to relax gun laws in the UK is both insulting to the British, to Rigby's family, to UK Police and it is extremely disingenuous.
I can well believe a couple of "grunts" may feel that way. Quite understandable if they have seen action. But this was on the street in London, not Iraq. If Rigby had been armed, then his attackers would probably been armed with guns also. I doubt any country wants to join the US on that slippery slope.

[DashOneBravo]

18. Couple of points

You left off God and the British Army from the list of those I insulted. It's not the first time I've been accused of that. It's a common tactic to claim a national insult, we do it all the time.

The "grunts" were Royal Green Jackets.

And "But this was on the street in London, not Iraq". That's exactly my point. They cut off his head in the streets of London and they took their time and gave an interview. Because they know no one would oppose them.

[Starboard Tack]

24. Fortunately, the UK is not under military occupation.

I don't think you insulted the British Army and I have no idea how God entered the conversation.
A single brutal event on the street in London, perpetrated by a couple of deluded political extremists, does not warrant arming the population or the police, let alone having armed soldiers on the streets. We can see very well how that mentality works in the US, Syria and Iraq.
I don't care if the "grunts" were Green Ninja Turtles. If they think guns should be carried in London, they are completely out of touch with reality. I'm sure they will be welcome in lots of places in the US, if they decide to emigrate when their bit is up.

Apart from your friends, I see no movement in the UK to put guns on the street.

The killers of Rigby hit him with a vehicle, then stabbed him. He was dead when they attempted to decapitate him. They did not threaten anyone else, even though they had a gun, and eventually were shot by police. Note that neither was killed. They both charged at the police with a gun and cleaver, yet the cops, who are highly trained not to kill, succeeded in stopping them without killing. Something rarely seen in such confrontations in the US, where cops shoot to kill.

[Starboard Tack]

29. I doubt very much that either he or his "family" exist beyond an internet parody

In case you are in the dark on this, you might want to Google the word "ileus" and then Google "Poe's Law".

[gejohnston]

34. That describes Hoyt

maybe a couple of other people more than ileus.

[Starboard Tack]

36. Hoyt and Ileus are coming from the same place IMO

They just have completely different approaches. Difference is Hoyt is real. If you think ileus is real then you probably think Steven Colbert is a Republican. Difference between ileus and Colbert, the latter is brilliant, while the former is suffering from a serious medical condition and really needs a good bowel movement.

[gejohnston]

39. If Hoyt is real,

I have questioned his views on race for a few years. Anyone who is OK which a cop machine gunning a fleeing 14 year old because he doesn't like his dad's politics is not liberal, should not be be mentioned in the same sentence with real liberals like ileus.

[Starboard Tack]

41. Sorry, but I have no interest in discussing bowel movements

[gejohnston]

44. fine,

don't waste my time with racist faux liberals.

[Starboard Tack]

46. Waste your time with racist faux liberals?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[gejohnston]

50. seriously?

along with these
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249685
he was wrong on the facts: The Marshalls did not have a warrant, but that wasn't the issue. The issue was cutting a fleeing 14 year old in the back.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=62777

I'm guessing you know exactly what I'm saying and baiting me to be hidden or banned. Not guessing, you know exactly what I'm saying about Hoyt. You have been around long enough to know both of the people involved, I explained it in clear standard English, you are not young enough to attended Hull Studio School (random Google pick, worst public school in England). But I'm not going to give you that satisfaction.
I will make this clear:
IDEOLOGY IS LIKE RELIGION, FACTS AND EVIDENCE IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN FAITH, PREJUDICE, AND BULLSHIT GIVEN OUT BY THE PRIESTS.
MACHINE GUNNING SOMEONE IN THE BACK IS ALWAYS WRONG, NO EXCEPTIONS (other than trying to steal a nuke or something). MAKING ASSUMPTIONS BASED ON RACE AND NOT EVIDENCE IS RACISM. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE RACE OF THE PERSON BEING JUDGED IS. NO EXCEPTIONS. Saying "he is white therefore he is racist" is racist.
In case you haven't figured it out, my basic principles are:
facts and evidence before ideology, and principle before party, always.

[Starboard Tack]

59. OK, GE, the last thing I'm trying to do is get you banned or a post hidden

I've never alerted on a post you made and hope I never need to. I don't think you are a troll or a wingnut. Much of the time, I enjoy your posts. Sometimes they annoy the shit out of me, as I'm sure mine do the same to you. And that, my friend is OK.
Let me make one thing clear here. I don't want to rehash old shit, especially when it's not mine. The links you posted are old and half the people involved were PPR'd a long time ago, and deservedly so.
Sounds like you have an issue with Hoyt. Take it up with him.
I understand you are all about "facts and evidence" which is very appropriate in a court of law. Not so much on a discussion board, where opinions and ideas are the daily fare.

[Starboard Tack]

38. There you go again with the deflection.

What the fuck does Hoyt have to do with an obstructed colon?

[gejohnston]

43. I thought it was about Poes Law

I'm not deflecting, you are changing the subject.
Hoyt: A couple of years ago (can't find the link right now) there was a SD post at a Texas gas station. The shooter tried to retreat (while a much larger attacker was beating the shit out of him for no apparent reason) before firing. This happened in front of several witnesses. Attacker happened to be black, and the shooter white. The race of witnesses is unknown. Hoyt assumed that the defender was a white racist based on no evidence. Yet, he was more than OK with a fed machine gunning a fleeing 14 year old (same caliber as the sub-machine gun the nine year old girl shouldn't have had) in the back, he was OK with that. That is not a liberal, that is a racist. I called him a racist then, and still think he is. It is an insult to any real liberal, including one that uses a medical term for a user name, to be compared with some faux liberal.

[Starboard Tack]

49. I'm not really sure where you're going with this GE

I was trying to explain something to DashOneBravo and you jump in with some old shit about Hoyt. I'm not interested in whatever you've got going with Hoyt. has nothing to do with ileus, or DOB or Poe's Law, let alone an obstructed bowel movement having family fun while teaching the little turds to double tap as they ride around aimlessly on their ATV's, either before or after church with mommy proudly packing her psd in her mommy pouch while they all kayak to the range.

[gejohnston]

53. Hoyt is a better example

I think the other guy is for real. No, he did not say he taught the kids to double tap, which I doubt you understand the term. If you are OK with using guns for sport, then you should be OK with introducing kids to the sport. IIRC, didn't you say someone taught you how to shoot at a young age? I sense a strong case of cognitive dissonance. OK, so someone uses the term "turd" as an endearment. I heard it often. I know, it sounds ironic, but life is full of irony and paradoxes.
OK, so someone kayaks and has ATVs, what's your point? how are the two mutually exclusive?
OK, so they go to church, is that an issue with you?
Here is the difference: My issue with Hoyt is specific, easily identifiable, and based on specified principles. I don't see any of that with your issue with ileus. It frankly doesn't sound rational.

[Starboard Tack]

55. I don't have an issue with ileus any more than I have an issue with the tooth fairy

If I thought the poster's fantasy was real, I might have an issue. I don't though. I just don't think he is effective. His sense of irony is not developed and lacks consistency. Like a joke that isn't funny. I don't wish to discuss it any more, because I don't see the point in encouraging him/her.
If you have an issue with Hoyt, then I suggest you take it up with him. I don't follow him around, so am only peripherally aware of him. I'm not here to discuss other posters.

[gejohnston]

57. I think he is real

Just because he isn't within your paradigm, doesn't mean he isn't real. I have wide enough experiences with different types of people to not have such a limited experience.
As for Hoyt, I have taken it up with him. No, I don't follow him. I haven't said anything to him since I called him a racist two years ago. I have wondered since then if he is really a right wing agent provocateur.

[Starboard Tack]

60. Good for you. We obviously have different ideas about reality.

I prefer to think of him as a parody, because the thought that he may be real is almost as repulsive to contemplate as the thought that anyone else thinks he is actually a peace loving liberal Democrat, who carries a gun everywhere, yet doesn't call it a gun, but a "personal safety device" and claims he is married to an intelligent woman/mother of his gun owning children, who also carries a "personal safety device" which she also refuses to recognize as an actual fucking GUN.
Do I really need to go on GE? The guy is a "Poe". Not a very good one, I admit, but that's the reality, deal with it.

Hoyt, I don't have a clue about. That's your problem.

[gejohnston]

63. I actually know people like him

perhaps if you traveled beyond the US coasts, perhaps you would have too. That and living around the world, has made me realize that the real world, and the individual humans and within it, have nuance and complexity that is beyond the grasp of any ideology, prejudice, or superstition. Peace loving is not the same as pacifist, a philosophy that has numerous moral and ethical problems. She totally knows it is a fucking gun. You have no empirical evidence he is a "Poe" just that thinking that he is fits your world view, which would be disrupted greatly if it wasn't.
Hoyt is either a racist or an right wing agent provocateur. There is evidence to support the former, but not the latter.

Oh, to me, facts and evidence matter on discussion boards as much as they do in court rooms.

[beevul]

65. Facts and evidence are necessary...

"Oh, to me, facts and evidence matter on discussion boards as much as they do in court rooms."

Facts and evidence are necessary when gauging how well some of these "opinions and ideas " mesh with reality.

I tend to find, that those who poo-poo facts and evidence, far more often than not, are the very same individuals that hold ideas and opinions which do not mesh well with reality, and that they shy from discussing them once facts and evidence are brought into it.

[Starboard Tack]

68. Good luck with trying to establish facts on a discussion board.

You assume facts about me, which are far from reality. I have spent several years living far from the US coast, unless you consider the Great Lakes region coastal. I've lived in the deep south and in Appallachia and have traveled extensively through every state except Alaska. Add another 36 countries and you'd be getting closer to my reality.
I don't care if he is real or not. I have no interest in proving it either way. He presents himself as an absurd character. That's all the information I need, to know that I have absolutely no interest in communicating with him. If what he says is true, then he is not someone I would ever associate with or want to know. If it isn't true, then his sense of the absurd is so off kilter that he has no credibility. A peace sign is the symbol of a pacifist, btw, not someone who drools over copies of Guns & Ammo.

[Packerowner740]

17. WTF is MURKA?

[Starboard Tack]

19. Murka is the country where Dubya was president.

[Packerowner740]

64. That's stupid

[Starboard Tack]

67. Can't argue with that.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Urban Dictionary: murka
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=murka
Urban Dictionary
The United States of America as pronounced vocally by it's distinguished former president George W. Bush. Protect Murka against the terr'ist.

[blueridge3210]

21. "Murka" is an unfortunate, typical slam against firearm owners

used to imply that they are uneducated, low-IQ cretins unable to pronounce words correctly or use proper grammar. Business as usual for some in the pro-control crowd.

[oneshooter]

23. This was used by a subject of the Crown. Who is "neutral" on gun matters.

Last edited Sat Sep 13, 2014, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

[Starboard Tack]

27. Thank you. nt.

[Starboard Tack]

25. Bullshit! It is a comment about dumb assholes like your last president.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=murka
murka
The United States of America as pronounced vocally by it's distinguished former president George W. Bush.
Protect Murka against the terr'ist

[blueridge3210]

26. Horsesqueeze!

It's an attack on all firearm owners.

[Starboard Tack]

28. Nonsense.

I have nothing against firearm ownership. I have owned several and probably will again, mainly for sport and home defense.

[ileus]

20. Do we have any proof that this even happened?

[hack89]

22. So supporting the 2A means I support those morons?

I understand your desire to demonize all legal gun owners but posts like this do not help your side.

[Starboard Tack]

30. Really, Hack? You feel demonized by this?

Why would you think I have such a desire? This has nothing to do with gun ownership. It is about assholery by a handful of idiots who represent extreme gun nuttery. These are the guys who give gun owners, in general, a bad name, not me. Why would you identify with this? Or are you just shooting the messenger.

[Duckhunter935]

31. Then why did you not say in your OP

that this is not the majority of firearms owners but just a very small minority if idiots. You wait until you are called about and try and back it off. We know that is exactly what is meant when you and others conveniently make those remarks without differentiating that most firearms owners are law abiding and do not agree with the things that some random idiots do. It just is easy to group all firearms owners together with broad based statements.

[Starboard Tack]

35. Why would I need to?

This is where you guys need to step up to the plate and show the world that not all gun owners are assholes. It's you that's making the "broad based" connection, not me. I point out the loonies. You decide whether you agree with me or you want to defend them. It's your choice. I'm not associating them with responsible gun owners. But if you consider yourself a responsible gun owner, then you need to distance yourself from these people.
I would love to live in a world where responsible people could own guns and have their fun, target shooting and hunting. Maybe keeping a gun in the home for possible defense against intruders. I don't want to live in a world where idiots like these guys strut around making asses of themselves and fucking it up for everyone else.

[Duckhunter935]

40. "Yep, that Second Amendment really rocks!"

You said that and seem to not want the 2nd amendment. By inferring that the 2nd caused it all people that are for the RKBA are just as bad as the ones in the article. Do not try and walk it back now.

[Starboard Tack]

45. Let me ease you of any confusion you may have about where I stand.

I do not support the Second Amendment.
I support the right of individuals to own guns, for sport, hunting and home defense. I do not support the right to carry a gun in public without a fucking good reason.
I do not support the right of people to carry guns openly or conceal guns upon their person without a damn good reason. I do not support the right of assholes to carry guns into churches, bars, restaurants, coffee shops, schools, or anywhere else that normal people might want to gather for activities that don't include shooting guns.
I think guns should be restricted to specified areas, such as firing ranges, hunting areas and private property.
I do not support the right of individuals to arm themselves and appoint themselves as border patrol, without Federal authority.

I am not walking anything back. This is my opinion. I understand that many disagree with me and that's OK. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[hack89]

32. So why pin it directly to the 2A?

Why not blame the militia movement? Or the anti-immigration movement? Why say that it was motivated by the 2A?

We are not fucking stupid. You dance your little dance saying how you really support guns while dumping thread after thread of shit like this painting gun owners in the worse possible light.

[Duckhunter935]

33. very true

Tries to have it both ways like we are not smart enough to know what is right there in words in a post.

[Starboard Tack]

37. Why pin it on 2A?

Because 2A gives these freaks the "right" to walk around pointing their fucking guns at people they think are invading their precious fucking homeland. What else do you think gave them the idea they could do shit like that?
I support responsible gun ownership. There is no dance. If you think responsible gun ownership includes dressing up in camo and "defending" our border Rick Perry style, then you and I are on opposite sides of everything.

This has nothing to do with gun owners. It is about assholes who abuse 2A because they can. That's why it needs to be rewritten.

[hack89]

42. You are repeating a common gun control lie

Namely that nothing can be done until the 2A is repealed or changed. Let's not forget that the 2A allows assault weapon bans, open carry bans, universal background checks and even registration. Even Scalia in Heller says the 2A allows strict regulation of guns. The 2A could disappear tomorrow and it would not make an iota of difference. Your problem is that you don't have popular support for most of your desires.

[Starboard Tack]

47. Well, you may be right about not having popular support

but I'm not repeating any "gun control lie". At least, not to my knowledge.
I'm not saying "nothing can be done until 2A is repealed or changed". Lots can be done. I think it might be simpler to start from scratch, but that's just me.

[hack89]

54. That makes no sense

Unless your intent is to write some sort of explicit ban into the 2A. What would a rewritten 2A look like?

[Starboard Tack]

56. I don't know. Maybe one that doesn't include the B part.

But realistically, it is an amendment that was written 200+ years ago, in a different world. What do you think it should look like?

[hack89]

58. I would remove the militia part

To bring it in line with the Democratic Party platform position that the 2A protects an individual right.

[Starboard Tack]

61. Well, that's a start

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Now, how does the rest hold up, or make any sense without the militia part?
The way I read it, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the whole of 2A depends on the fact that a Militia is necessary to the security of a free state, and that was the whole point.

[hack89]

62. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

That is all it needs to say to conform with current law and the Democratic party platform.

[pablo_marmol]

48. Exactly. Laughably transparent, this one. NT

[whathehell]

52. Way to go Arizona, not all of "'Murka'"

It IS a very big country.

[Starboard Tack]

66. Very true!

And a very beautiful one too!