How the market reacts to a gun ban: the Troy Pump Action Sporting Rifle

[Jgarrick]

http://www.troydefense.com/firearmsaccessories/troy-sporting-rifle/



Granted, the market for this rifle is somewhat limited (California, New York, and Connecticut come to mind), but at least there's now a way for residents of those states to own an Evil Black Rifle with a folding stock, pistol grip, and flash suppressor! Being a pump rather than a semi, it's not an "assault weapon" by definition.



Unless they change the definition. Again.

[Loudly]

1. And why are you rejoicing in any gun's desirability?

[Jgarrick]

4. I don't think it's accurate to say I'm applauding its desirability. I *do* applaud its availability

[Loudly]

11. Well I denounce and regret its availability.

And I ridicule your applauding it.

[Jgarrick]

13. You go right on doing that if it makes you feel better!!

[Travis_0004]

14. I agree with you

Its stupid that a weapon like this exists.

If we didn't pass gun laws that accomplish nothing, then we wouldn't have to make guns like this, and people could buy a normal AR-15

[Loudly]

16. Why would people want to do that?

Other than for settling personal grievances, commencing crime, and generally lashing out.

[SQUEE]

17. And cultivating

uproariously funny experiences with the ignorant and mean spirited bigots.

don't forget that.

[Jgarrick]

18. What percentage of AR-15s do you think are used to settle personal grievances,

commence crime, and generally lash out?

I'm not asking you to document it...I just want to know what you think the number is, expressed as a percentage.

[Loudly]

22. Why would I want to indulge a single casualty whatsoever from such a capricious "product?"

What the hell kind of society are you advocating anyway?

[hack89]

27. So anything that can kill a single person should be regulated out of existance?

really?

[Jgarrick]

30. You answered a question with a question. If you would be so kind as to answer my original question,

I'll be happy to answer any you wish to pose. You know...have an actual conversation.

What percentage of AR-15s do you think are used to settle personal grievances,
commence crime, and generally lash out?

I'm not asking you to document it...I just want to know what you think the number is, expressed as a percentage.

[Lizzie Poppet]

37. Heaven forfend you might actually think this stuff through.

[Lizzie Poppet]

36. For the same reason(s) 99.9%+ of AR buyers do:

Recreational shooting...and occasionally self-defense and hunting. But mostly recreational shooting. Rifles of all kinds (not just scary looking semi-automatic ones to say nothing of just AR-15s) are involved in c. 50,000 violent crimes of any kind (including suicide and suicide attempts) per year.* Out of c. 80 million rifles...

It is utterly inarguable that the overwhelming majority of rifle owners (and gun owners overall, by an only slightly less astronomical margin) have no interest in "settling personal grievances, commencing crime, and generally lashing out." That's nothing more than bigoted, ill-considered bullshit.

But don't let pesky things like demonstrable facts get in your way. They might require mathematics and other hard stuff.

* http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

[Loudly]

42. Video games serve that recreational purpose perfectly well.

Be satisfied with virtual shooting, for everyone's sake.

[Straw Man]

43. Wrong as usual, Shares.

Video games serve that recreational purpose perfectly well.

A statement fueled by deep and abiding ignorance.

Be satisfied with virtual shooting, for everyone's sake.

"For everyone's sake"? You are confusing criminals and the homicidally insane with law-abiding sportsmen and women. You seem to do it a lot. Why is that?

[Loudly]

44. The "sport" of hunting humans.

[Straw Man]

45. How ghoulishly and offensively erroneous.

The "sport" of hunting humans.

Nothing of the kind. You watch too many Grade-Z action movies.

[NYC_SKP]

6. I don't see it. I see a post about how manufacturers respond to changes in legislation.

Gun nuts are now going to have to add "pump action" to the long list of things that they want to outlaw because they don't understand how they work.

[NYC_SKP]

2. The magazine capacity, 30 rounds, will keep it out of several states.

Ten rounds, max, where I live.

Unlimited, I believe, for tubular magazine on a lever action!

[Jgarrick]

3. It would presumably be permitted with 10 round magazines, which are freely available.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Retool it as a 20 or 12 gauge and I'm in!

I was surprised to see a nice looking pistol grip Mossberg 590 a1 in a California shop where I dropped in for some .22WRF.

I was thinking, hey DiFi, ya missed one!

[Straw Man]

8. Not so fast, there, pardner.

Unlimited, I believe, for tubular magazine on a lever action!

Only in .22 rimfire, which rules out just about all of the cowboy carbines in centerfire pistol calibers. Tough luck, Lucas McCain ...

[NYC_SKP]

10. Antiques... I have a model 90 pump-action in WRF

And there are a few lever action rimfire rifles out there, worth more than my grandpa's plinker.

The point being, if they wanted to they could make new ones, as Troy Defense did with this pump action 30-round magazine model.

[Lurks Often]

12. Not so fast yourself :P

Last edited Tue Apr 15, 2014, 08:52 PM - Edit history (1)

It varies from state to state. 10+ centerfire tubular magazines on lever actions are still legal in both NY & CT. However, it yet another example of the stupidity of the CT law, an original Colt Lightning pump action rifle (made from 1884-1902) is banned if it holds more then 10 rounds in a tubular magazine and is chambered in a centerfire caliber.

[Straw Man]

31. CT maybe; NY, no.

10+ centerfire tubular magazines on lever actions are still legal in both NY & CT.

New York's "SAFE" Act specifically exempts .22 rimfire only; all other tubular magazines over 10 are classified as "large capacity ammunition feeding devices," and are henceforth banned. It has nothing to do with semi-auto, detachable magazine, etc. Any "ammunition feeding device" that holds more than 10 rounds is now illegal, even if you don't own the gun that goes with it. Theoretically you could have a pile of random carbine parts, and if there's a magazine tube in there that holds, let's say, 12 rounds of .38 Special, you're guilty.

[Jgarrick]

32. So NY has banned the Henry Model 1860 for being an assault weapon?

Idiots...

[Straw Man]

33. Yup, it's banned. Not as an "assault weapon," ...

... but as a "large capacity ammunition feeding device."

Idiots...

Exactly.

[Lurks Often]

34. I went and looked, it does not apply to manually operated firearms

http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/s2230-2013 Section 37, paragraph I

I have also been assured by the people that run the NY State Cowboy Shooting Championship that the SAFE act does not apply to lever actions or pump action rifles

[Straw Man]

39. That section deals with "assault weapons."

"Large capacity ammunition feeding device" is a whole other section of the law.

23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt,
drum, feed strip, or similar device ... that (A) has a capacity of, or
that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten
rounds of ammunition, OR (B) CONTAINS MORE THAN SEVEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNI-
TION, OR (C) IS OBTAINED AFTER THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE CHAPTER OF THE
LAWS OF TWO THOUSAND THIRTEEN WHICH AMENDED THIS SUBDIVISION AND HAS A
CAPACITY OF, OR THAT CAN BE READILY RESTORED OR CONVERTED TO ACCEPT,
MORE THAN SEVEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION; provided, however, that such term
does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and
capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition OR A
FEEDING DEVICE THAT IS A CURIO OR RELIC.

Tubular magazines over ten are exempted only for .22 rimfire. This section is independent of action type or detachability. As I said before, in theory it would even apply to a tubular magazine that wasn't presently attached to a rifle.

[Lurks Often]

40. I think we are interpreting the law differently

I've known the people running the NY State SASS Championship for more then 10 years, I'm sure they checked with the state police before telling out of staters it was ok to come to the match with our rifles.

Still, I am glad mine only holds 10, so I am covered anyway since the judge struck down the 7 round limit.

[Straw Man]

41. I think it's pretty clear.

You cannot have any "ammunition feeding device" that holds more than ten rounds. The only exemption is for fixed tubular magazines in .22 rimfire, as specifically spelled out in the law I cited.

You can call the State Police hotline and ask: 1-855-LAW-GUNS. Be sure to ask about "large capacity ammunition feeding devices," not "assault weapons." The problem is that you could call three times and get three different answers. Furthermore, they have a standard disclaimer that anything they tell you over the phone "does not constitute legal advice." SASS may have gotten bad advice from that very hotline.

I doubt that this was the intent of the law, but in fact, centerfire lever-action or pump rifles that hold more than ten rounds are now illegal to own in New York State. This is the consensus on NY-based firearms forums, including some frequented by the lawyers who are involved in litigating against SAFE. Such rifles may be modified to hold fewer than 10 (such as with the so-called "duck plug" used by waterfowl hunters), but the modification would have to be permanent, such as epoxying the plug in place.

My guess is that enforcement of this aspect of the law is a very low priority for the New York State Police, and even lower for local law enforcement agencies. Busting SASS competitors for what is a little-known, arbitrary, and confusing section of this law would be extremely bad PR for the Cuomo administration.

[tularetom]

28. Well, it really isn't unlimited, is it?

I mean, the barrel, and hence the magazine, is only so long. The 1873 Winchester, probably the most famous lever action rifle, had a capacity of 10 rounds, the carbine with a 20" barrel, only eight. A .30-30 WCF cartridge has an overall length of about 2.5", so I guess you could have a 30 round magazine if you had a 75 inch barrel.

[NYC_SKP]

29. True, that.

But a good gunsmith could figure something out!

I haven't checked my Model 90 to see if even ten cartridges fit, I think it might take 12 or 15, more than 10.

[Lurks Often]

35. Not necessarily accurate

The capacity of a tubular magazine in a lever action is a function of the caliber and barrel length, I know at least some of the 1873 Winchesters or their Italian copies will hold 12-14 rounds

[tularetom]

38. Yes, many of those replicas are chambered in handgun calibers

There are lever action replicas available in .38 special and .45 long colt, both of which are about an inch shorter than the .30-30 usually associated with modern Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles.

The original .44-40 rounds were also only about 1.6" long.

[krispos42]

7. As I predicted over a year ago. N/t.

[Straw Man]

9. Remington beat them to the punch ...

... with the 7615, which took AR magazines:



It didn't take off, though. Police departments -- the target market -- stuck with their ARs. I think it's now discontinued.

[Jgarrick]

19. I'd forgotton about those...I now recall thinking at the time, "What's the point?".

Now, of course, there is a point, at least in a few states.

[DonP]

15. But, but, but it violates the "Spirit" of the law!

Translation; "Spirit of the Law" = we gun control fanatics were all too fucking stupid and in too much of a hurry to actually know what we were doing with this gun ban thing, and damned proud of it too. So you should all just pretend we banned those guns too.

As we have been told many times, re: the '94 AWB...

Any manufacturer that obeyed by the letter of the law, as it was written and removed the flash hider, bayonet lug or pinned the adjustable stock etc. was just breaking the "Spirit of the Law" and should be banned too.

[mog75]

20. I like it

It looks handy, and it will be a great personal defense rifle for those who live in the more restrictive states. It would also make a good truck gun with that folding stock. Too bad it's only available in the diminutive 223/5.56. Anyone know when they will be available? I called one of my local gun shops that specializes in pdr's and they've never heard of it.

[Jgarrick]

21. Two of them for sale on Gunbroker right now.

[mog75]

23. Thank you

I've never bought a firearm from gunbroker. I'll have to create an account, and see if one of the local ffl's will do the background check/transfer.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=409732817

[Jgarrick]

25. Happy to help!

[DashOneBravo]

24. Good for Troy

No more dangerous than your Grandfathers hunting rifle.

But it looks really, really scary. Not as scary as a bayonet lug though.

You know, that piece that protrudes underneath the barrel to attach a bayonet.

I'm not sure how many were killed last year with a bayonet in the US.

I always love that the Bansalot type pick a moron to pitch it.

[mog75]

26. here's a link

Bayonet lug discussion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172139158