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Tue Oct 15, 2013, 12:49 PM

What Do Boys Do When They Find a Real Gun?



Objectives. To determine how boys behave when they find a handgun in a presumably safe environment and to compare parental expectations of their child's interest in real guns with this observed behavior.

Methods. A convenience sample of 8- to 12-year-old boys was recruited from families that completed a survey on firearm ownership, storage practices, and parental perceptions. Parents were asked to rate their child's interest in real guns on a scale from 1 to 5: 12 = low interest, 3 = moderate interest, and 45 = high interest. Parents of an eligible child were asked to bring to the exercise 1 of their son's playmates and/or a sibling in the same age range. After informed parental consent was obtained, each pair or trio of boys was placed in a room with a 1-way mirror and observed for up to 15 minutes. Two water pistols and an actual .380 caliber handgun were concealed in separate drawers. The handgun contained a radio transmitter that activated a light whenever the trigger was depressed with sufficient force to discharge the firearm. After the exercise, each boy was asked whether he thought that the pistol was real or a toy. Before leaving, each child was counseled about safe behavior around guns.

Results. Twenty-nine groups of boys (n= 64) took part in the study. The mean age of participants was 9.8 years. Twenty-one of the groups (72%) discovered the handgun (n = 48 boys); 16 groups (76%) handled it (n = 30 boys). One or more members in 10 of the groups (48%) pulled the trigger (n = 16 boys). Approximately half of the 48 boys who found the gun thought that it was a toy or were unsure whether it was real. Parental estimates of their child's interest in guns did not predict actual behavior on finding the handgun. Boys who were believed to have a low interest in real guns were as likely to handle the handgun or pull the trigger as boys who were perceived to have a moderate or high interest in guns. More than 90% of the boys who handled the gun or pulled the trigger reported that they had previously received some sort of gun safety instruction.

http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/107/6/1247.short

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Reply What Do Boys Do When They Find a Real Gun? (Original post)
otohara Oct 2013 OP
AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #1
otohara Oct 2013 #2
GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #3
otohara Oct 2013 #4
GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #5
otohara Oct 2013 #6
GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #8
otohara Oct 2013 #10
gejohnston Oct 2013 #11
otohara Oct 2013 #12
gejohnston Oct 2013 #16
GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #17
oldhippie Oct 2013 #7
ManiacJoe Oct 2013 #9
NYC_SKP Oct 2013 #13
ileus Oct 2013 #14
GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #15
Eleanors38 Oct 2013 #18
jimmy the one Oct 2013 #19
gejohnston Oct 2013 #20

Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 01:21 PM

1. Good study. Important data.

I keep all of ours secured, but a reminder to give a thought to the parents of kids my child visits at home.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 01:32 PM

2. My Kids Aren't Allowed

in homes with guns.

Never much thought about it until I found my son at a neighbors home ooogling a pile of guns when I peeked in the window to find out why they weren't answering the door. They were trying hide the guns before opening the door. That was the last time he entered that home.

Also, many times when "sleepovers" were all the rage, he would call me at 2AM because he couldn't sleep and wanted to come home. I would tell him, go outside and wait for me - I was worried the man in the family might think a burglar was in the house and he'd be shot.

Better safe than dead child.



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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 03:58 PM

3. When I was 11 my father gave me a shotgun.

I was allowed to go hunting with it. If I had been in that group I would have shown high interest and would have known the real gun from the toy. I would have know how to operate it, remove the magazine and check the chamber.

I even knew the difference between automatic and semi-automatic as a kid.

I don't think I was unusual for my area. I think all of my friends would have been similiar.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #3)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 04:15 PM

4. I Only Recently Found Out

my abusive first husband dabbled in shot guns and abusing small animals like rabbits and groundhogs when he was in his pre/early teens.

Anyway I sure am glad he didn't have a gun while he was smacking me around bruising my face and knocking out my teeth.

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Response to otohara (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 04:26 PM

5. Do you judge all gun owners by him? N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #5)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 04:41 PM

6. No, Cuz I Just Found This Out

and it's been on my mind, so yeah I am really glad there were no guns in our house, back in the 70's I never would have thought twicce about it, but so many women are killed by their abusive drunk husbands. - one of us would be dead. most likely me.

I also think about my neighbor who's ex took their only kid and pulled a murder suicide on her boy a couple years ago. She's a broken woman ... it's heartbreaking, not natural and a visual she can't shake.

I went to the how many people have been killed since Newtown yesterday and it's always depressing we're at 9334 killed by guns, but over this past weekend there were 62 people killeld in two days including 4 children. It makes me angry, scared and sick about my country.

I have a real hard time buying into the "responsible gun owner" meme because if that were true - why so many dead? Many are responsible until they aren't. Guns terrify me - the NRA wants this entire country to be open carry - if that day comes I will never leave the house.



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Response to otohara (Reply #6)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 07:50 PM

8. It is reasonable to fear earthquakes in central Kansas?

Are tornados a serious threat in San Francisco?

Your mistake is in not realizing that almost all of the gun crimes are committed by people who are already criminals, not by legal gun owners. Yet it is the legal gun owners that you fear.

There are between 100 to 150 million gun owners in America. The exact number is not known, only estimates. 9,334 killed is less than one thousandth of one percent of gun owners. In other words, 99.999+% of gun owners were peaceful during that time. That is PROOF that almost all LEGAL gunowners are responsible. But you want to judge us all by the very few criminals who also have guns.

Would you judge all blacks by the few that are criminals? Do you judge all Muslims by the few that are terrorists? Of course you don't, yet you don't hesitate to judge all gun owners by the few bad ones.

The question of who will illegally use a gun to harm another person is one that has been well studied for over a century. The facts are well known by criminologists. Rarely does a criminals use a gun for their first offense. Usually there is a prior record leading up to that crime.

Rarely is deliberate murder a first offense. Usually the murderer has a history of violent crime.

It is NEVER that way in the movies, TV and murder mystery novels. In that type of fiction, which most people use as their information source, the murderer is always a first offender, and never a common street criminal. After all, what's the mystery if the murderer was a common thug?

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #8)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 08:53 PM

10. Felons Finding It Easy to Regain Gun Rights NRA

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/us/felons-finding-it-easy-to-regain-gun-rights.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

A FEW BAD ONES? Are you fucking kidding me - a few bad ones = 9330 dead American's and counting year after year.

How many American's have been killed by Muslims since 911 on American soil? Is it anywhere near the 10,000 per year who are killed by guns?

If TV is where you want to go, watch Dateline, 48 Hours and there's a common theme. Everyone was shocked,
such a nice neighborhood, it couldn't happen here. Men/women plotting to kill their spouse vs divorce, why? My favorite comes from the value folks - Christians who find murder more acceptable than divorce. Life insurance policies and affairs are a big reason for murder too. Guns make it so easy to plot the quick demise of a human being.

I don't trust gun owners - not at all. Hunters perhaps, but those who buy Glocks and AK's / AR's scare the living shit out of me. I don't want to know someone who feels the need to buy that kind weapon and more so if they feel the need to carry it with them all the time. Some well meaning gun owner just might shoot the wrong person, crossfire so to speak.

Sorry - I don't care about all your statistics spin. Nothing you say can make me feel safe or better knowing 9300 American's and visitors from other countries have been killed in less than a year by guns. I will never call a policeman either. They too are fucking insane and trigger happy bullies with guns.

The NRA's wet dream of 50 open carry states looks a lot like Somalia. That's their idea of FREEDOM.










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Response to otohara (Reply #10)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 09:33 PM

11. Actually, no

Neither party has funded the ATF to process the paperwork for 20 years.
In Canada, only violent felons lose the ability to legally own a gun, we prohibit even someone who was busted with a dime bag 20 years ago.
If TV is where you want to go, watch Dateline, 48 Hours and there's a common theme. Everyone was shocked,
such a nice neighborhood, it couldn't happen here. Men/women plotting to kill their spouse vs divorce, why? My favorite comes from the value folks - Christians who find murder more acceptable than divorce. Life insurance policies and affairs are a big reason for murder too. Guns make it so easy to plot the quick demise of a human being.
That isn't reality, it is man bites dog. Like GSC said, it happens but it is rare.

I don't trust gun owners - not at all. Hunters perhaps, but those who buy Glocks and AK's / AR's scare the living shit out of me. I don't want to know someone who feels the need to buy that kind weapon and more so if they feel the need to carry it with them all the time. Some well meaning gun owner just might shoot the wrong person, crossfire so to speak.
Glock is simply an Austrian manufacture of pistols that are no different than Walther or Smith and Wesson (I personally think Glocks are over rated compared to the German and US maker). Cops are more likely to do that. If you don't trust gun owners, so that means you don't trust say, Jerry Brown or Maya Angelou?

Sorry - I don't care about all your statistics spin. Nothing you say can make me feel safe or better knowing 9300 American's and visitors from other countries have been killed in less than a year by guns. I will never call a policeman either. They too are fucking insane and trigger happy bullies with guns.
Most of them are gangsters killed by other gangsters in a few cities. Compare the murder rate of Minnesota and its neighboring Canadian province.

The NRA's wet dream of 50 open carry states looks a lot like Somalia. That's their idea of FREEDOM.
Few people own guns in Somolia. Partly because people can't afford them, and partly because of the licensing scheme. The people you see on 48 hours are war lord retainers.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #11)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 09:47 PM

12. Somolia - Sure About That?

https://www.google.com/search?q=somalia+guns&client=firefox-a&hs=r2w&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=TO9dUp2aBcLlrAHXq4CgBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1696&bih=828&dpr=1.13

Keep on minimizing our gun problem - typical responsible gun owner jargon.

Hopeless garbage from a group who doesn't care how many are killed by guns. People die, who cares
how they die?

I met a teaparty type person a couple weeks ago. She had pictures of her family with the weapons on her phone.
She also had a double mastectomy because she had the gene - and doesn't want to die.

I don't want to die from a gun and I especially don't want my kid to die because some yahoo in NC who thinks he's Muslim vs 1/2 Japanese. You know the state where guns are allowed in bars and venues where his band plays. I'm doing what I can to prevent that from ever happening just like the lady with the simple Glock and new fake breasts.




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Response to otohara (Reply #12)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 10:34 PM

16. If you have no criminal record

and you don't hang out with people who do, your chance of being a murder victim is about the same as being a lottery winner.
Keep on minimizing our gun problem - typical responsible gun owner jargon.
not a gun problem. BTW, Somalia has 9 privately owned guns per 100 people. Canada and Iceland has over 30 and Finland has 45.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Hopeless garbage from a group who doesn't care how many are killed by guns. People die, who cares how they die?
If you stay out of the triangle of stupid, your chances of being murdered are close to zero. Most murders are criminals with long criminal records. So are most of their victims. That has been known in criminologist circles for centuries. It isn't hopeless garbage, it is reality. TV is not reality, nor is the crap the vast wasteland tries to sell.

I met a teaparty type person a couple weeks ago. She had pictures of her family with the weapons on her phone. She also had a double mastectomy because she had the gene - and doesn't want to die.
And?

I don't want to die from a gun and I especially don't want my kid to die from a gun. I'm doing what I can to prevent that from ever happening just like the lady with the simple Glock and new fake breasts.
I don't worry about man bites dog anymore than I worry about finding myself in a black swan event. Equating a target shooter, Olympic material or not, or hunter with drug dealers and gangsters, doesn't strike me as rational.

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Response to otohara (Reply #10)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 10:44 PM

17. You are simply being emotional.

Emotions are not a good substitute for reason. The numbers I used were not spin, they were real world numbers.

Your slam at Christianity is completely unwarranted. I do not know of any church that endorses murder and neither do you.

Again I would suggest that you do some reading in the field of Criminology. This stuff has been studied for over a hundred years. In the case of domestic murders, the couple almost always has a history of violent fights. Ozzie & Harriet, and Ward & June are not going to suddenly explode in murderous rage. Frequently the man in a domestic murder already has a record of violence.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #3)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 05:25 PM

7. I had a .22 rifle and 16 ga shotgun ......

 

... and ammo in an open gun rack on the wall of the bedroom I shared with my brother from age 14 until I left for college at 18. He was four years younger, so he was 10-14. Somehow we also survived, as did our friends who came to visit.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 08:00 PM

9. The article's conclusion seems rather intuitive.

Conclusion. Many 8- to 12-year-old boys will handle a handgun if they find one. Guns that are kept in homes should be stored in a manner that renders them inaccessible to children.


Like other types of training children get, gun safety needs to be repeated often to maintain its retention.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 10:00 PM

13. "Before leaving, each child was counseled about safe behavior around guns."

I'm glad they did that.

I'd like to see the study repeated with a control group compared to a group that received good safety counseling.

K/R

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 10:10 PM

14. My son knows the difference between my 45 and his...

His is plastic and he doesn't care too much for the kick from my 45. He'd rather shoot the 9mm's instead...


I can say that the BB pistols that are exact size and sometimes weight are a concern IMHO. For that matter my neighbors son has a Airsoft that looks, feels and weighs almost the same as an actual Taurus 45 I used to have. Even the airsoft magazine has real heft to it.

When we have kids over for sleepovers I don't even get out my HD firearms for the night as is custom. I know, I know...I'm being safe and unsafe all at the same time.

My son come home from a sleepover Sunday morning, his friends Dad said "I hope you don't mind I let them shoot the 410." LOL Safety first, shooting second.

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Response to ileus (Reply #14)

Tue Oct 15, 2013, 10:32 PM

15. Such super realistic airsoft guns are very useful for cheap safe practice. N/T

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Wed Oct 16, 2013, 03:54 AM

18. "...previously received some sort of gun safety training." By whom?...

Where? Any standards? Hands on?

This is awfully ambiguous. Why were boys tested, but not girls? Nearly 20% of gun-owners are women. I find this curious.

The criticisms if this 2001 study have more validity than the study itself.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Fri Oct 18, 2013, 01:00 PM

19. gsc repeating disinformation

GreenStormCloud wrote in #6: Your mistake is in not realizing that almost all of the gun crimes are committed by people who are already criminals, not by legal gun owners. Yet it is the legal gun owners that you fear.

Why do you insist on repeating this disinformation? I checked you last june & you didn't reply but repeat your lie here. Then, you restricted to murders but same reasoning applies to all guncrime. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172123863#post57

june3,2013: greenstormcloud: The vast majority of murders are committed by people who already have records as violent criminals, and who are already forbidden to own weapons.

I wrote: This is not true at all - since a violent record without a conviction does not disallow a person his 'gunrights', & they can thank the nra for that which helped make it so.
FBI data run of murder arrestees nationally 4 yr period in 1960s found 74.7% to have had prior arrests for violent felony or burglary. Guncite note: 50.1% had prior convictions.
.. Just having a prior criminal record does not necessarily mean one is disallowed from gun ownership or gun rights (fopa86). There must be a conviction for a violent felony. Burglary, larceny, auto theft are property crime felonies, & perjury (amongst others) is a white collar felony, which do not necessarily mean loss of gun rights even with convictions - & moreover gun rights can be restored, again per fopa86, for plea bargaining down or dismissals or after time for a nonviolent felony conviction. Only a conviction for a violent felony denies future 'gun rights'.

gun guru Volokh - prior arrest data for homicide offenders from: Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 1998:
81% of all homicide defendants have at least one arrest on their record. does not deny gun rights in itself, infrequently does.
66% have two or more arrests. does not deny gun rights in itself (need conviction)
67% have at least one felony arrest. does not deny gun rights in itself - "
56% have 2 or more felony arrests. does not deny gun rights, unless conviction
70% have at least one conviction. includes propcrime & whitecollar crime.
54% have at least one felony conviction. includes propcrime & whitecollar crime.

-- offset by the nra backed fopa1986 law which prohibits gunowners from losing their alleged 'gun rights' unless there is a conviction for a prior violent felony (aggrasslt, robb, murder, rape, arson). Thus the 54% figure volukh cites above is the high end of murderers having a prior conviction, but, since 54% includes propcrime & whitecollar crime convictions which often won't disallow 'gunrights' or restoration thereof, the 54% figure is surely lower, perhaps by half, meaning only ~25% - 40% of murderers were disallowed gun rights based upon prioir convictions. MOST GUNCRIME IS DONE BY WHAT THE NRA CONSIDERS LAW ABIDING CITIZENS TO THE MOMENT THEY COMMIT THE CRIME.

gsc: 9,334 killed is less than one thousandth of one percent of gun owners. In other words, 99.999+% of gun owners were peaceful during that time. That is PROOF that almost all LEGAL gunowners are responsible.

Wrong, wrong wrong. You limit to gunmurderers ignoring guncrime & illicit crime & even crime committed by gunowners without using a gun, like property crime, or verbal or physical abuse.

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #19)

Fri Oct 18, 2013, 02:18 PM

20. What gun blog does he write for?

gun guru Volokh - prior arrest data for homicide offenders from: Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 1998:
81% of all homicide defendants have at least one arrest on their record. does not deny gun rights in itself, infrequently does.
He is a libertarian law professor, probably not a gun guy.
66% have two or more arrests. does not deny gun rights in itself (need conviction)
67% have at least one felony arrest. does not deny gun rights in itself - "
56% have 2 or more felony arrests. does not deny gun rights, unless conviction
70% have at least one conviction. includes propcrime & whitecollar crime.
54% have at least one felony conviction. includes propcrime & whitecollar crime.

Of course those are only the ones solved. http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/crime/unsolved-murder-rate-increasing

-- offset by the nra backed fopa1986 law which prohibits gunowners from losing their alleged 'gun rights' unless there is a conviction for a prior violent felony (aggrasslt, robb, murder, rape, arson).
Do you want Canadian style gun laws or not? The NRA introduced a law that would make the US more like Canada in one small way, yet you object. Either way, even if you did 18 months for a bag of pot 35 years ago, you are still a prohibited person.

Thus the 54% figure volukh cites above is the high end of murderers having a prior conviction, but, since 54% includes propcrime & whitecollar crime convictions which often won't disallow 'gunrights' or restoration thereof, the 54% figure is surely lower, perhaps by half, meaning only ~25% - 40% of murderers were disallowed gun rights based upon prioir convictions. MOST GUNCRIME IS DONE BY WHAT THE NRA CONSIDERS LAW ABIDING CITIZENS TO THE MOMENT THEY COMMIT THE CRIME.
using this logic, you are also saying pot possession is a gateway to murder.

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