Holder on the hot seat tomorrow....

[AzWorker]

Should prove interesting.

[gateley]

1. How come? nt

[TheWraith]

2. Testifying about the ATF "Fast and Furious" program.

The ATF overrode the background check system to sell 2,000 firearms to smugglers who took them to Mexico, without any way to track the weapons or the people, and without telling the Mexican government. A bunch of the weapons have now returned to the US, including one that was used to murder a Border Patrol agent.

[gateley]

3. Well, heads SHOULD roll on that one. WTF were they thinking? Thanks -- I thought that was probably

it.

[TheWraith]

4. They supposedly were doing it to try and track smugglers.

Although how you would track smugglers without actually, you know, TRACKING them kind of baffles me.

I personally suspect it was most likely to puff themselves up so they could go to Congress and request more money and powers. Not exactly an unheard of tactic among enforcement agencies; create a problem then get more "goodies" to solve it.

[gateley]

6. They surely should have been better coordinated (or whatever) regardless of their motive. But

I suspect you're right about the puffing themselves up. But still, this just sounds stupid and reckless. I need a shaking my head smilie. Thanks!

[PavePusher]

7. Face-palm is often a suitable substitute.

[Hoyt]

9. What about the convictions and indictments that have come down. I guess they count for nothing if

you despise the ATF and others for fighting the good fight. Do they make mistakes? You bet. Will the gun culture criticize them and hope the whole Obama admin falls because they dared try to stop some evil gun trafficking? I think the answer is . . . . . yes.

In any event, I hope the criticism of ATF -- mostly from right wingers -- does not distract them from their mission to impede as many illegal and questionable gun transactions as possible. The gun culture will whine, but so be it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. That's like saying the Iraq War was worth it in the end because it toppled Saddam Hussein...

...and all those that protested the war were just out to get Shrub.

Eliding deaths of people on both sides of the border and the smuggling of thousands of gun illegally at the behest of our own government in order to protect
the reputation of any administration is, well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. What about Brian Terry's family? They're calling it "abominable, reckless, nonsensical."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20120202,0,6431783.story

Slain border agent's family alleges lies over ATF gun program

It says then-U.S. Atty. Dennis Burke falsely told them guns found at the scene weren't part of the failed Operation Fast and Furious.

By Richard A. Serrano, Washington Bureau

8:50 PM PST, February 1, 2012

Reporting from Washington

The family of slain U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry charged Wednesday that the top federal prosecutor in Phoenix lied to them about the guns found at the crime scene in an attempt to hide the weapons' connection to the ATF's failed Fast and Furious gun-tracking operation.

Terry was killed in December 2010, allegedly by Mexican bandits carrying at least two AK-47 semiautomatic rifles that had been purchased in Arizona as part of Fast and Furious. The operation was intended to catch drug lords using illegal weapons, but the ATF immediately lost track of 1,700 firearms.

The Terry family alleged that then-U.S. Atty. Dennis K. Burke told them last March that the two weapons came from a store in Texas and were not part of Fast and Furious.

The family made their allegations in a "notice of claim" stating that they intend to sue the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the Justice Department for $25 million. They called the gun-tracking operation "abominable, reckless, nonsensical."...

Perhaps you can explain to them that Agent Terry's death was unavoidable collateral damage. Or something like that...

[Hoyt]

12. Give us a break. Do you honestly think the killers of agent Terry would not have a gun otherwise.

That's bull. There are plenty of gun traffickers here in this country who would fill the need.

Besides, I thought you guys always say "guns don't kill" and other such BS.

You just hate the ATF and anyone who tries to control guns.

[montanto]

13. "Do you honestly think the killers of agent Terry would not have a gun otherwise?"

Why speculate about an alternative ending to the story? We have the one we have. The ATF let the guns into exactly he hands that they wanted them in. Not having thought about what would happen next, the whole thing went sideways. So, the ATF was trying to control guns alright, but not doing a very good job of it. Why should law abiding citizens have to pay for what the ATF fucked up? Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns in the wrong hands are likely to come to grief. ATF put the guns in those "wrong" hands. We don't need to imagine another scenario.

So, here's a quiz. Choose the best answer:

A. The ATF fucked up, lost track of the guns, some people died because of it.

or

B. Guns kill people.

or

C. The ATF is totally blameless.

or

D. Oh, look, a unicorn!

[Hoyt]

14. ATF was trying to stop gun trafficking. That goal is laudable. Clearly could have done better.

But, there are a number of indictments already, and 2 convictions.

I'm for the ATF beefing up operations to stop illegal gun trafficking to other countries, at gun shows, and in general. They are doing their job despite obstructions from the "gun culture" and particularly right wing organizations determined to bring Obama admin down.

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. "...there are a number of indictments already, and 2 convictions." And a couple of hundred deaths.

That's a whole henhouse full of eggs broken to make one small omelet...

[jeepnstein]

28. Oh, and don't forget the State Department.

Their Direct Sales program was a roaring success. So much so they aren't even releasing the data on it any more. Why pay a mule full retail for a semi-auto AR when you can have the local police chief order you a pallet of the real thing at government pricing? And the shipping is simpler by going the State Department route.

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Oliver North was trying to get US hostages back when he sold arms to Iran.

Does he get a pass from you as well?

[PavePusher]

15. They probably would have had guns. No-one is arguing that.

But they wouldn't have had guns essentially given to them by our own government, making OUR OWN GOVERNMENT complicit in his murder.

Is that clear enough?

As often as you claim/insinuate that lawful gun owners enable criminals, you sure do dodge pretty vigorously when presented with a true case of direct enablement.

[Hoyt]

17. Well, let's apply same standard to S&W, Colt, Glock, your local gun shop, you if guns stolen, etc.

[PavePusher]

18. Please state the criminal act they are taking to supply criminals.

We'll wait....

[liberal_biker]

19. No problem

When S&W, Colt, Glock, my local gun store, and me start supplying firearms to known prohibited people in direct violation of the law, I fully expect the government to prosecute them.

Oh wait...that's what happens when any of those people do such a thing...hmm...sounds like we are trying to apply the same standard Hoyt. You, on the other hand, are arguing that the very government agency tasked with enforcing those laws should be given a free pass when they willingly violate them.

[Hoyt]

20. Naw, I'm arguing this was a sting -- if it had worked, Most of us would have cheered.

Not so sure about the members of gun culture who hate ATF, FBI, police, etc., who enforce gun laws.

Heck, the gun culture thinks Randy Weaver was/is a saint.

[liberal_biker]

21. Sigh....

There is no reason for cheering, and even less reason for them to do it in the first place.

The reason most of us in the "gun culture" have issues with the ATF (not so much the FBI or other LE agencies) is they frequently contradict themselves, refuse to be clear in their own regulations, and frankly, flat make shit up from time to time.

As far as Mr. Weaver, nobody claims he is a saint (he is still alive), however, nothing he did was illegal. The ATF was absolutely out of line in what they pulled at Ruby Ridge and regardless of what you believe, this is not open for interpretation. The courts and in fact the ATF itself are firmly on record with recognizing Weaver's innocence as well as the ATF's numerous violations of his rights.

[Hoyt]

32. Weaver was/is a terrorist-- only open for interpretation if you believe in "friends" of Aryan Nation

dealing in illegal weapons.

He could have given himself up at his compound. Instead, he put his family at risk.

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. What charges was he convicted on, again?

[liberal_biker]

40. Really?

Because every single factual report indicates Weaver intentionally chose to move to West Asshole, Idaho specifically to live alone and away from people. In addition, in case you've completely ignored the facts, the ATF came to him and started shooting before they even identified themselves. This is very readily available information Hoyt. If you're going to lie your ass off, at least try not to be so obvious.

[X_Digger]

22. A "sting" involves actually tracking the object, recovering it, and charging them.. fucking duh.

No, this was akin to the DEA saying, "We'll let criminals buy tainted drugs, and we'll track them by the chemical traces left in the corpses when they show up in the morgue."

They stopped following the guns (by DESIGN, intentionally, on purpose) and expected to recover the guns in Mexico (at crime scenes, in MX drug raids, etc.) -- all without telling the Mexican government.

Get it now?

[Hoyt]

33. With over 20 indictments and already 2 convictions -- it served its purpose. More are coming.

[X_Digger]

36. How many deaths make it worthwhile?

What's your personal balance, eh?

And how many more people could be fucking alive had they tracked the guns?

How many dead Mexicans are worth '20 indictments and 2 convictions'?!?

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. Sometimes you need to break a truckload of eggs to make one omelet.... n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

44. "...it served its purpose." REALLY???

Well maybe the family of Agent Terry will just shut up and sit down, then. That's all they had to hear.

WE HAVE LAWS FOR A REASON!

Do you think that lots of cops in many major cities don't know the names of the gang members involved in the drive-by shootings? Sure they do. Do they go out and do a drive-by or three to clear up the problem? No. Why not? Wouldn't a police initiated drive-by "serve its purpose"?

WHAT KIND OF RECKLESS IDEA IS THAT?

WHILE THEY'RE AT IT MAYBE THEY COULD PICKUP SOME RUBBER HOSE, TOO.


We all know this operation, however ill managed and aborted it may be, began as a sting. There had better be some convictions arising from this after the deaths involved. At least a few folks in the ATF dropped the ball a few HUNDRED times on this one.



What happens to those who traffic international arms illegally?

A court in New York postponed the sentencing of Russian national Viktor Bout, who was found guilty of arms trafficking last November, Kommersant said on Thursday.

snip

Bout, who had denied all charges against him, faces from 25 years to life in prison.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20120202/171098130.html


Now back to F & F. Think we'll see anyone charged with a crime there? Sure we will!
I think the best we could hope for is someone will go for 25 years to life without a pension.

[rl6214]

24. You just can't make a point without showing your animosity towards gun owners

"Not so sure about the members of gun culture who hate ATF, FBI, police, etc., who enforce gun laws.

Heck, the gun culture thinks Randy Weaver was/is a saint."

[Hoyt]

30. Is the statement incorrect? You can search for discussion supporting Weaver, and blasting ATF.

There are plenty of both right here in this forum if you care to look. Or, just ask yourself what your opinion is regarding my statement.

[rl6214]

34. Can you point to anything that shows the "gun culture" thinks Weaver is a "saint"?

The only think I have seen is stating the fact that Weaver was found innocent on the charges against him, that he was a POS as a person. Can you point me to anything else to support your claim?

" Or, just ask yourself what your opinion is regarding my statement."

My opinion of your statement is to cast a huge net over everyone and stereotype them as all the same. Again, please show me where anyone in this forum (group) has claimed Weaver is a saint.

As far as this statement:
""Not so sure about the members of gun culture who hate ATF, FBI, police, etc., who enforce gun laws. "

I think it has been shown here that the "members of gun culture" want to hold those groups to a higher standard, that just because they are law enforcement dosen't mean they get to flaunt the law and break those laws they are supposed to enforce.

[friendly_iconoclast]

37. Anything claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And you've presented none.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. "You just hate the ATF and anyone who tries to control guns." Prove it.

I'll have translated every edition of the Encyclopaedia Brittanica ever printed into Sumerian before you do...

[Callisto32]

42. ......YOU SPEAK SUMERIAN!?!

lol

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. I will- right after I get through with Linear B....

[Pacafishmate]

46. "You just hate the ATF and anyone who tries to control guns."

Yes, and what's wrong with hating such groups/ people?

[rl6214]

23. This would almost be a reasonable post if it not for a couple of statements

"Will the gun culture criticize them and hope the whole Obama admin falls because they dared try to stop some evil gun trafficking? I think the answer is . . . . . yes."

"mostly from right wingers"

"The gun culture will whine, but so be it."

Your editorializing makes it look like YOU whining. At least you didn't throw in "stuffing a gun or two down your pants" or "can't leave home without the darn things".

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. "It was necessary to illegally traffic in guns (with scores of deaths as a minor side effect)...

...in order to try and stop evil gun trafficking."

Are you implying there was something disproportionate going on?

<sarcasm mode to "OFF">

[rl6214]

31. Who were you quoting and repying to?

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. Sorry, that was a parody of certain viewpoints (not yours) seen here.

I'll admit that could have been done better...

[Callisto32]

41. I don't believe in drumming up crime to fight crime.

And you only pretend to.

No human being can be that thick.

[ileus]

5. who is going to question him? other government employees...

The 25 million lawsuit is a better measure of his accomplishments with F&F...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

8. +1 n/t

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. tru dat

[cbrer]

45. Is Brian Terry's family going to question Holder?

Just wondering.