Citizen displays his RKBA rights! Citizen later murdered his girlfriend and committed suicide.

[rdharma]

Last edited Sun Jun 23, 2013, 11:58 PM - Edit history (1)

What do y'all think?

#at=66

[gejohnston]

1. looks like cop baiting

looking for a false arrest pay day.

[rdharma]

2. This guy later murdered his girlfriend and committed suicide!

Cassie Pell, 23, and Rob Pratt, 24, of Plainwell died in murder, suicide, authorities say

UPDATE: YouTube videos capture Pratt's encounters with police in recent months.

PLAINWELL, MI --It appears that a young man who argued with his girlfriend Monday evening shot her shortly after midnight before turning the weapon on himself, authorities say.

Cassaundra Pell, 23, and Robert Burnham-Pratt, 24, died as a result of gunshot wounds in their home in the 500 block of 10th Street in Gun Plain Township, according to a news release from the Allegan County Sheriff's Office.

Dispatch received a call from a person who had heard a gunshot at the residence on 10th St. around 12:19 a.m. after earlier witnessing the couple arguing.

The couple was reported to have been at a family gathering in the Pine Lake area during the day and earlier in the evening; Burnham-Pratt posted a photo of Pell at the lake on his Facebook page

Authorities were told Pratt left the gathering after arguing with Pell.

~snip~

Pell is the daughter of Plainwell Public Safety Officer James Pell.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2013/06/cassie_pell_23_and_rob_pratt_2.html

Comments?

[gejohnston]

3. No way of telling that's the same guy or not

In Japan both would be called suicide, and such things are not uncommon. They just don't use guns. Come to think of it, using a gun in a domestic murder is less common in the US.

[rdharma]

4. Oh, puhlease!

Read the article. Listen to the murderer address the officer!

Denial doesn't help when the facts smack you between the eyes!

[gejohnston]

6. I read the article

I didn't see how he addressed any of the three cops any different than anyone else. What time are you referring to?
My point about the rest of it still stands.
It appears, still under investigation?

[rdharma]

7. "What time are you referring to? "

The name of the first officer he addresses in the video!

[gejohnston]

8. didn't show him

and the conversation didn't strike me as if they knew each other. I listened to it a couple of times. Not that it matters. It isn't relevant to anything even if it were. "making a movie"?

Besides, had a big knife been used, like the more common mutual suicides in Japan, we wouldn't be having this conversation do we?

[rdharma]

10. The murderer addresses "Mr./Officer Pell"...... can't you hear that?

And the guy was PROTESTING carrying a GUN......... not a samurai sword! So please give up that lame argument. You're embarassing yourself! Jeesh!

[gejohnston]

12. no I missed that.

Emossing? Your word usage is surpassed only by your knowledge of military history and Greek mythology.

Although exploiting a tragedy for a cheap political point is tacky. I mean, I don't think even Cotton Mather did that.

[rdharma]

14. 00:39 - 00:42 And thank you for the spell check.

Auto-correct got me....... is that your best argument?!!! Guess the Japanese samurai sword thing didn't work out for ya'!

[gejohnston]

15. swords are strictly regulated too

not my best. Even my worst seems like overkill. Even my mediocre would be like using a .300 Mag for rabbits.

[rdharma]

17. I don't think that "Japanese sword" red herring is working for you!

[gejohnston]

18. not at all,

who said anything about sword? That's your straw man. I simple pointed out that such crimes are common in Japan, but labeled as suicide.

[rdharma]

19. What is the price of tomatoes in Japan?

[gejohnston]

20. last time I was there

lettuce was five bucks a head and rice was 50 bucks a kilo.

the guy was not a murderer at the time of the video.

[rdharma]

21. "the guy was not a murderer at the time of the video"

But he sure was a recognizable gun nut at that time!

[gejohnston]

22. no, just some guy looking for a false arrest pay day.

I'm betting he had other scams too.

[rdharma]

23. With guns and the 2nd Amendment involved?

[gejohnston]

24. easiest way to attract attention

get some cop that doesn't know the law. There is a guy who does it in Florida, where open carry is illegal, unless you are fishing. He will stand on a pier with a fishing pole and video camera.

[rdharma]

25. Did he murder his girlfriend? nt

What a bunch of gun hugging losers!

[CokeMachine]

27. More flame bait from you???

Isn't there a bansalot group that makes you feel better?? OR, are you just here to bait? Serious question what is your agenda??

[rdharma]

5. Thanks for the rec, Eleanors38!

I appreciate it!

[Eleanors38]

26. Uh, you in the right thread? Too much...

?

[oneshooter]

9. I wonder if the Police found a problem between state law and local ordnance?

[rdharma]

11. The problem seems to have been a murderer walking around displaying a GUN!

I know....... he was a "responsible gun owner" .... so what's the problem, right?

[CokeMachine]

28. Good god the bait is getting old!!! nt

[ZombieHorde]

13. I don't know what I think.

The police and the guy all acted respectfully. They had a conversation about wisdom and law. I normally don't support the police stopping law-abiding citizens, but I believe that they probably did receive some phone calls about this guy, so they were compelled to check it out.

[rdharma]

16. ......."they were compelled to check it out."

Before he murdered his girlfriend and committed suicide! Did you get that part?

[CokeMachine]

29. I don't know since you responded to yourself.

Who(m) were you responding to?????????????????????????? Just you again!!

[jimmy the one]

30. japan vs usa

johnston: In Japan both would be called suicide, and such things are not uncommon. They just don't use guns. Come to think of it, using a gun in a domestic murder is less common in the US.

I would like to see a link to what you contend here; I think in cases where a 'suicide pact' is agreed to beforehand, a murder/suicide would be listed as two suicides (or multiple if one shooter).
But I do not think ordinarily a homicide in japan is listed as a suicide, except for when a mother kills her young children, which can be considered honor killings in certain circumstances.

johnston: Come to think of it, using a gun in a domestic murder is less common in the US

I would REALLY like to see a link to this one, or at least explain wtf you're talking about, whether you're comparing apples to oranges.
(I haven't seen the vid, just following the written dialogs).

[gejohnston]

31. you are confusing johshi and oyako-shinju

SHINJU

The word shinju in Japanese, originally meant a mutual suicide agreement by lovers in order to prove the genuineness of their love to each other. According to the strict and original definition described by Ohara (1985), shinju is an act where more than two people commit suicide voluntarily at the same place, at the same time, and for the same purpose. The definition has become looser and now also includes murder-suicides where some of those involved are killed against their will (Fukushima, 1984). The definition of shinju now includes both a genuine suicide pact, extended suicide (assisted suicide followed by suicide), and murder-suicide in which the killer and the victim(s) have a strong emotional tie with each other before the act. The feeling of "oneness" of those involved in shinju is important.

Shinju literally means "heart-inside" or "oneness of hearts" (Walsh, 1969) and this probably reflects a psychological joining of the participants. The participants may likely have a conscious awareness of wanting to join or unite with their partner in the afterlife, but unconsciously there may be a wish for infantile symbiosis and an intolerance of separation anxiety. The development of clear ego boundaries is probably impaired in these individuals though state-related regressions may also be at play in some individuals. Uniting with their suicide partner may be a reaction for failure to fit into society or a group.

The Japanese language has diverse words for shinju. Shinju has been classified into two major categories, johshi (mutually consented lovers' suicide) and oyako-shinju (parent-child suicide), the latter of which is subclassified further such as boshi-shinju (mother-child suicide), fushi-shinju (father-child suicide), and ikka-shinju (family suicide). The number of johshi have been declining in the past three decades. Although the number of oyako-shinju has been declining since the 1950s as well, it is still a serious problem.

http://www.japanpsychiatrist.com/Abstracts/Shinju.html

But I do not think ordinarily a homicide in japan is listed as a suicide, except for when a mother kills her young children, which can be considered honor killings in certain circumstances.

and fathers too, or if dad takes out the whole family before himself.
The cops sometimes write off cold cases as suicides just to clear it.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/02/03/national/japans-suicide-statistics-dont-tell-the-real-story/#.Ucn28lGNPuM

[jimmy the one]

32. might be right

johnston: In Japan both would be called suicide, and such things are not uncommon.

Perhaps you're right, tho the (american couple's) prior argument could be difficult to explain.
I think it'd been better had you written 'might be classified suicide'.

The word shinju in Japanese, originally meant a mutual suicide agreement by lovers in order to prove the genuineness of their love to each other.
According to the strict and original definition described by Ohara (1985), shinju is an act where more than two people commit suicide voluntarily at the same place, at the same time, and for the same purpose.
The definition has become looser and now also includes murder-suicides where some of those involved are killed against their will (Fukushima, 1984).
The definition of shinju now includes both a genuine suicide pact, extended suicide (assisted suicide followed by suicide), and murder-suicide in which the killer and the victim(s) have a strong emotional tie with each other before the act. The feeling of "oneness" of those involved in shinju is important.

johnston: They just don't use guns. Come to think of it, using a gun in a domestic murder is less common in the US.

Clamming up?

[gejohnston]

33. clamming up about what?

domestic abusers are not typical murderers. Neither are serial killers. Neither group generally use guns. Drug dealers, basic criminals, and organized crime types on the other hand................

[jimmy the one]

34. Try try again

johnston: clamming up about what?

Perhaps you're right again; I should've asked, why are you 'tapdancing'.

the tapdancing johnston: domestic abusers are not typical murderers. Neither are serial killers. Neither group generally use guns. Drug dealers, basic criminals, and organized crime types on the other hand...

That's all well & fine, but the concern wasn't that, it was when you said this: In Japan both would be called suicide, and such things are not uncommon. They just don't use guns. Come to think of it, using a gun in a domestic murder is less common in the US.

to which johnston gave this bedazzling answer (repeated from above): domestic abusers are not typical murderers. Neither are serial killers. Neither group generally use guns. Drug dealers, basic criminals, and organized crime types on the other hand...

[gejohnston]

35. I know I'm right

I'm not tap-dancing. I'm doing the Macarena.

[jimmy the one]

36. not so fast

Johnston: I know I'm right... doing the macarena

johnston doing the macarena: In Japan both would be called suicide, and such things are not uncommon. They just don't use guns. Come to think of it, using a gun in a domestic murder is less common in the US.

Ok, seems about 10 to 15% of US homicides are domestic violence:

Statistics On Domestic Violence Intimate Homicide Victims by Gender
victim: male ..female.. total
1983 ...1112 ..1461 ..2573
1993 ....698 ..1571 ..2269
2004 ....385 ..1159 ..1544 Approx 2/3 by firearms, about 1,000 in 2004.
http://www.silentwitness.net/sub/violences.htm

johnston's japanese suicide link: Inamura (1993) reported that shinju has accounted for 1.6% of all recent suicides. Based on this figure, the rate of shinju among all suicides is estimated to be 0.29,
shinju now includes both a genuine suicide pact, extended suicide (assisted suicide followed by suicide), and murder-suicide in which the killer and the victim(s) have a strong emotional tie with each other before the act.
In 1992 {japan} .. there were 22,104 suicides,

22,104 x 0.016 = 354 shinju suicide pacts, or if using 0.0029 would be about 70 shinjus.

By my figures, 10 - 15% is way higher than 1.6%, & 1,000 domestic gunmurders is higher than 354 & way higher than 70. So I don't see how 'using a gun in domestic murder is less common in the US', than shinju in japan.
Eagerly awaiting your rebuttal, if you can stop doing the macaroni that is.

[gejohnston]

37. can you do better?

women are more likely to shoot than men. BTW, where do you get the 2/3 number? I can't find it in the website, which may or may not be accurate. it is still lower than street criminals.

Did you adjust for population? didn't think so.
so, why did you reply to the OP?

BTW, you didn't comment on the other link.

[jimmy the one]

39. tapdance under shifting goalposts

johnston: .. women are more likely to shoot than men. BTW, where do you get the 2/3 number? I can't find it in the website, which may or may not be accurate. it is still lower than street criminals.

Between 1976 and 1996, 65% of the male and female victims of intimate partner homicides were killed with a firearm. Lawrence A. Greenfeld "Violence by Intimates: An Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends," Bur Justice Statistics Factbook (March 1998)
2 .. Bur Justice Statistics reports that between 1976 and 2005, one third of female murder victims were killed by an intimate -- a spouse, ex-spouse, or boyfriend -- and more than two-thirds of the spouse and ex-spouse victims were killed by firearms. Girlfriend victims {non spousal} were killed by guns 56% of the time.http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/03/rush-limbaugh-dismisses-guns-role-in-domestic-v/191659

johnston: Did you adjust for population? didn't think so.

Changing the goalposts are we? you wrote: In Japan both would be called suicide, and such things are not uncommon. They just don't use guns. Come to think of it, using a gun in a domestic murder is less common in the US.
If you meant as a rate protocol would have you write 'as a rate'; As a rate, US would still be slightly higher, but with ~350 figure I was counting all shinjus including parent/child, & you above meant domestic murder/suicide between adults. So the 350 japanese figure would be lower, maybe half, so you lose all around.
In light of new evidence it's incumbent on you to post a link to prove this: domestic abusers are not typical murderers. Neither are serial killers. Neither group generally use guns.

johnston:BTW, you didn't comment on the other link. -- was I supposed to?

can you do better? -- why? doesn't take a whole lot to disprove what you say, generally; can't you do your own research? prove it wrong, so far you're losing, badly.

[gejohnston]

40. your job is to povide evidence

Rush and Media Matters? Give me a break. Check where MM got their information from. The least you can do is provide evidence from respected neutral institutions.

In domestics, women do use firearms more than men. Men are usually the abusers. The women are generally defending themselves from the abusers.

[jimmy the one]

42. preacher heal thyself

johnston: your job is to povide {sic} evidence

I did, bureau of justice statistics plus an excerpt from a rush limbaugh talk show.
Rush dimbo (& his evidence) was actually arguing the progun side, to alleviate the gun aspect of domestic murders yet even THAT doesn't help you, which further exposes your childish counter argument for what it is, trying to save face by blowing smoke & tossing out red herrings.
In fact you dug your hole deeper when you wrote this:

J: domestic abusers are not typical murderers. Neither are serial killers. Neither group generally use guns.

There, you said it & I countered with evidence showing you're wrong - 65% done by gun accd'g to the one report on domestic murders. Now post some evidence to prove what you say above, & quit acting like a child, shifting goalposts & that I'm supposed to provide your evidence or whatever.

johnston:The least you can do is provide evidence from respected neutral institutions.

Haha, from you I can't stop laughing. Like 'CopBlock'? that rightwing anti-govt source you provided a while back? give us an update, is copblock's founder still serving that 3 month prison sentence?
You aren't the one to be preaching to others about the importance of sourcing to respected neutral institutions. Preacher heal thyself.

[gejohnston]

46. cop block

Anti government? Cops are the government.

[CokeMachine]

38. Here's a clue --

If you are responding to something a poster says in a thread it would be best to respond directly to them. That way they get a notice that someone responded. Salad posts or not please try to respond directly to the person to which you are replying. For gods sake you don't have to add what someone said to each of your posts. Just respond to that post and anyone with one brain cell will understand -- really!! It will make your posts much easier to read. Also, word count doesn't make you any better than any other poster.

[Jenoch]

41. I'm still trying to figure

out the point of this thread. Some guy open carried a gun and later shot his girlfriend and then himself after an argument. It's a tragedy for everyone involved. I wish it did not happen but it did. Is the point of the thread to show why guns should be banned in the U.S.?

[rdharma]

43. The point is ....... the guy PROTESTING for his RKBA was a murderous nut job......

A great "poster boy" for the gun huggers, eh?!!!

[Jenoch]

44. Are you trying to make

a correlation between a guy who is in favor of RKBA, and later, in a fit of anger and emotion, kills his girlfriend then himself, and all people who are in support of RKBA?

[rdharma]

45. There's a correlation between nutty gun huggers and firearms tragedies. nt

[Jenoch]

47. I guess it boils

down to what is the definition of 'nutty gun huggers'.

I have 8 guns. I don't hug them and don't even shoot them too often, yet I have been called a gun nut and worse.

[rdharma]

48. "definition of 'nutty gun huggers'"

I would say that a "firearms enthusiast" who is out there in public flashing his gatt terrorizing the neighborhood in an effort to demonstrate his/her RKBA by causing a scene/confrontation with the police ......... is a damn GUN NUT!

If you don't want people to think that all gun owners are "gun nuts", why do you support the actions of these crazy fools?

[Jenoch]

49. When did I say I supported

'a crazy fool' for open carry. I think it is foolish to walk down the street with a rifle or a gun on your hip for all to see. I recall writing posts when those stories come up. I think there was a situation in VT or CT not too long ago that I said was a stupid move.

[rdharma]

50. So...... do you believe in universal background checks and registration?

[Jenoch]

51. I believe in universal background checks,

as long as the system is not too cumbersome or costly. I don't think I should have to worry about loaning a gun to my friend, neighbor, or BIL. i am opposed to gun registration. That could lead to taxation and confiscastion. I have not seen any conclusive studies showing gun registration leads to lower crime rates or convictions. Do you have a link that says otherwise?

[rdharma]

52. Ever hear of the "Tiahrt Amendments"?

Look it up before you demand "conclusive studies" and you'll see why these "studies" don't happen.

And your fear of "confiscation following registration" ........ NRA induced paranoid propaganda. Plain and simple.

[Jenoch]

53. I thought I renembered

talk of gun confiscations in California after registration. Letters were sent out demanding guns to be relinquished as I recall. I don't remember much more.

I am aware of the law requiring police gun traces to be confidential in the U.S. I am also aware that gun registration is required in other countries. What about studies done outside of the U.S.? Any word on the success of gun registration in Canada?

How much would universal gun registration in the U.S. cost in terms of actual money and political capital?

[rdharma]

54. Registration of guns in foreign countries a great success.

Switzerland, Germany, Australia, the UK. Shall I go on?

[gejohnston]

55. define sucess

what are they successful at? At best it will be traced to the guy that reported them stolen. I Australia at least, it could provide a shopping list to those who have it. Most of the time they come up as "never been registered". Since all of these places had lower murder rates before any kind of registration, it didn't seem to do anything.

[Jenoch]

56. The country with a culture and history most

similar to the U.S. is Canada. How did it go there?

There must be studies of gun registration in the U.S. that do not rely on trace data, or are there?

[rdharma]

57. How did it go in Canada?

Simple........ just check Canada's rate of violent crimes with firearms and compare that to the USA!

Any other questions?

[gejohnston]

58. can you show how one has anything to with the other?

While Canada had handgun registration since 1930s, but not long gun or machine gun. Machine gun registration started in 1952, but was easier to legally buy than here. Did handgun crime drop after 1934? Machine gun crime after 1952 or 1977 when they were banned? How about the long gun registration, which was passed and repealed twice?
Can't show cause and effect? No effect at all?

[rdharma]

59. Cause and effect?

Like I said, compare Canada's rate of violent crimes with firearms compared to that of the USA.

Since you like to go off on tangents, why don't you show me proof that Canada's firearms registration programs have NOT worked?

[gejohnston]

60. post hoc ergo propter hoc

In other words, you can't. Not a tangent at all. Before you can show effectiveness, you have to it had something to do with violent crimes with firearms. It is most likely culture. In the UK, before any gun laws at all, violent crime with firearms almost nonexistent.

The latest repealed long gun registry. It didn't do anything as advertised.

[rdharma]

61. NO. In other words, YOU can't!

Since Canada is obviously doing something right with their gun laws, the burden of proof is on YOU!

Tell, us! How can we lower our violent crimes with firearms to Canadian levels? That would be quite an accomplishment!

[gejohnston]

62. Actually I did.

The long gun registry was advertised as having various benefits. It produced none of those.
since Canada's violent crime rate was lower than ours even when their gun laws were less restrictive.

How can we lower our violent crimes with firearms to Canadian levels? That would be quite an accomplishment!

We could be there in a few years. Then again, it is entirely possible nothing can. Theirs rises and falls with ours, but keeps percentage difference.

[rdharma]

63. I knew you would avoid the facts.

It's not Canadian gun laws that are responsible for their lower rate of violent firearms crimes........ it's something in their water that causes that!

[gejohnston]

64. more like history and culture.

BTW, is Jamaica's gun ban effective?
I haven't avoided any fact. Merely pointed out your fallacies and poor information. How about Mexico's gun registration? Guns are used in one third of Canadian murders. Guns are used in one fourth of Mexican murders.

[rdharma]

66. No gun ban or registration in effect in Somalia. How's that working out?

It's so easy to play that "reductio ad absurdum" game, eh?

[gejohnston]

69. Well,

Canada's murder rate is 1.6 per 100K while Somalia is 1.5 per 100K
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
you tell me?
licensing and registration isn't working out too well in Belize, South Africa, and Brazil is it? Unless most of their murders are with other weapons, which is probably true. See Mexico and Canada.

[rdharma]

70. Murder rate in Somalia is 1.5 per 100K

Come on! Do you really believe what you post?

So Somalia's murder rate must be WAY lower than the murder rate in the USA, eh? Somalia = 1.5 per 100K ....USA= 4.8 per 100K

[gejohnston]

71. murder is a legal concept

shoot outs between war lord retainers are, well, legal warfare under their laws. Those are probably more common.

[rdharma]

72. Like suicides with samurai swords, eh? nt

[gejohnston]

73. impressive

not.

[Jenoch]

65. And exactly what did gun registration

have to do with it? I know Canada has had handgun registration for a long time. I would like to know exactly how much gun registration specifically has to do with crime rates and solving crimes.

[rdharma]

67. Go do your homework.

If you want to prove that gun registration in Canada hasn't helped keep gun violence down and assist in solving crimes, PROVE IT!

Don't let those troublesome facts and stats get in your way!

[Jenoch]

68. You're the one who brought up

gun registration, not me.

[rdharma]

74. Some more Rob Pratt videos

[rdharma]

75. This is a video taken by Pratt's girlfiend (who he later murdered).

Note what takes place at the beginning of the video!

[Dash87]

76. Imagine how horrible they feel now, especially the father.

They knew he was a nut job, but they couldn't do anything about it. This nut was a ticking time bomb.