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Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:48 PM

$44 Million, Not A Single Crime Soved, Cuomo Tells Legislature Scrap Bullet Tracking

http://www.ammoland.com/2012/01/30/44-million-not-a-single-crime-soved-cuomo-tells-legislature-scrap-bullet-tracking/

After collecting over 356,000 spent shell casings since March 2001 at an estimated cost of nearly $44 million, not a single crime has been solved because of the program, NYSRPA says.

“By any rational measure, CoBIS has been a total failure,” said NYSRPA President Tom King.


Was it MD or MA that has *one* solved case because of 'ballistic fingerprinting'?

Hint to lawmakers: Don't use CSI:Somewhere as the basis for your laws. A simple barrel swap, a good cleaning, or firing an additional 250 rounds through a gun will change the 'fingerprint'.

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Reply $44 Million, Not A Single Crime Soved, Cuomo Tells Legislature Scrap Bullet Tracking (Original post)
X_Digger Jan 2012 OP
ileus Jan 2012 #1
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #4
S_B_Jackson Jan 2012 #17
TheWraith Jan 2012 #2
AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #19
OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #3
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #5
burf Jan 2012 #6
TPaine7 Jan 2012 #7
safeinOhio Jan 2012 #8
TheWraith Jan 2012 #10
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2012 #12
TheWraith Jan 2012 #14
AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #20
burf Jan 2012 #9
ileus Jan 2012 #11
one-eyed fat man Jan 2012 #13
krispos42 Jan 2012 #15
X_Digger Jan 2012 #16
michreject Jan 2012 #27
X_Digger Jan 2012 #28
slackmaster Feb 2012 #29
iverglas Feb 2012 #45
Straw Man Feb 2012 #49
iverglas Feb 2012 #50
Straw Man Jan 2012 #18
X_Digger Jan 2012 #25
Bloberman1959 Jan 2012 #21
ellisonz Jan 2012 #22
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #23
gejohnston Jan 2012 #24
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #26
SteveW Feb 2012 #30
liberal_biker Feb 2012 #31
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2012 #32
DragonBorn Feb 2012 #33
PavePusher Feb 2012 #34
AtheistCrusader Feb 2012 #36
Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #37
iverglas Feb 2012 #46
Straw Man Feb 2012 #48
PavePusher Feb 2012 #35
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2012 #38
PavePusher Feb 2012 #39
burf Feb 2012 #40
ileus Feb 2012 #42
friendly_iconoclast Feb 2012 #47
ileus Feb 2012 #41
burf Feb 2012 #43
oneshooter Feb 2012 #44

Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:52 PM

1. I recommend lone wolf barrels...

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Response to ileus (Reply #1)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:59 PM

4. Why swap barrels when you could just add a reddotthing or simply strap on an alternate or two?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 12:04 AM

17. So you can shoot different calibers from the same firearm?

And it's cheaper than buying separate pistols in three separate calibers.

I have a couple of pistols that I can shoot in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .357 Sig simply by changing out the barrels.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:57 PM

2. Actually, I believe it was New York that had the one single bullet match.

It just didn't actually solve the crime in question. Although I could be wrong.

But yes, COBIS has been a stunning failure, even more so than most of New York's restrictions--like NYC's ban on firearms for people who aren't wealthy or well connected, statewide registration, and the "Assault Weapons Ban".

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Response to TheWraith (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 01:36 AM

19. It sort of contributed to cracking the case, a little bit.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 02:58 PM

3. "Hint to lawmakers: Don't use CSI:Somewhere..."

As I was reading the OP I was already about to say "But it works great on CSI!!! They've nabbed thousands of crooks!"

lol! Maybe Mario should just hire Gary Sinise.

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Response to OriginalGeek (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:00 PM

5. +1 ;) n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:17 PM

6. Oh come on!

They've only wasted 44 million, but they were right on the cusp of a breakthrough.

Oh yee of little faith.

No wonder NY is going broke.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:29 PM

7. Cuomo is a raging right wing extremist, and must be stopped!!!

 

Spending $44 million and not solving a single crime is quite efficient for gun control. They should be commended for making the good people of New York feel safer.

Feelings are underrated. Right wing lunatics like Cuomo always want to focus on results, instead. As if anyone cares whether lives are actually saved. Or if crimes are solved. Or if societal ills are cured.

The purpose of gun control is to control guns--or, more precisely to control gun owners and wannabe gun owners. Gun owners should have it as hard as possible. They should be hated, scorned and feared. We should should be able to join the cool kids--Canada, Europe and Japan.

Who cares about lives saved, crimes solved or any of that noise??!

I mean, really.


(Same reply I posted in the other, slightly younger thread before I saw this one.)

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:57 PM

8. Just require

tracer rounds.


work great at night.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 04:11 PM

10. If I could get handgun tracer rounds, that would be awesome.

They always appear hideously expensive though, and I can't find tracer tips in handgun sizes. Although those .308 ones I loaded are awesome.

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Response to TheWraith (Reply #10)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 04:47 PM

12. Ammunition To Go (dot) com ... they have numerous tracer and incendiary calibers.

 

incendiary are usually pricey but the FMJ tracer rounds are OK priced... about on par with good self defense ammo.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #12)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 09:39 PM

14. Yeah, but out of my price range I'm afraid.

I could never afford to actually shoot them. I bought this wonderful bag of I believe 500 .308 tracer tips and have been loading them into my own brass... 24 cents a shot. It's great.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 01:37 AM

20. Given that tracers are used to 'walk' rounds into a target, I'm sure this was a joke

but I don't get it.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:59 PM

9. Maybe he can send the bill

to the Joyce Foundation, afterall they do have the money.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 04:22 PM

11. pretty normal results for the government...anyone surprised?

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 04:48 PM

13. There in lies the rub.....

“By any rational measure, CoBIS has been a total failure”

Gun control fanatics are not ruled by logic; something being rational or not has not got a thing to do with their position.

Emotion and hypocrisy rule their fiefdom. What better example?

"Anyone found in possession of a handgun except a legitimate officer of the law goes to jail—period."

The man who penned those words was charged for firing a gun that he did not legally own and shooting a teenager skinny dipping in the swimming pool of his suburban Washington home. Carl Rowan was arrested and tried. During the trial, he argued that he had the right to use whatever means necessary to protect himself and his family. A hung jury resulted in a mistrial and Mr. Rowan did not suffer the consequences he precsribed for lesser mortals.

A step beyond what we see each week on “CSI,” this “ballistic fingerprinting” solidly ties bullets to guns, allowing police to determine with greater accuracy and speed which gun fired the bullets used in a crime.......


Paul Helmke sang that tune long and hard It was bogus then, it's bogus now, who cares how many millions are spent on stupid laws written by idiots designed to pander to the feelings of morons?

All the more astounding is that as staunch an anti-gun advocate as Cuomo has been all his life pissing away 44 million bucks on feelgood bullshit was too much, even for him.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 09:39 PM

15. And yet, those that predicted this outcome...

...were portrayed as against "reasonable" gun laws. As people who were afraid of the slippery slope, so much so they would stonewall a legitimate, useful law-enforcement tool just on general principles. As people that put some perceived right to privacy when exercising a privilege granted by the government above and beyond the general safety of society.


Funny how nobody that supported this in the past has made an appearance in the thread and apologized.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 30, 2012, 10:28 PM

16. Well, quite a few of them are chewing granite pizzas..

depakid, sharesunited, defendandprotect, hankydubs, gman2..

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 12:43 PM

27. How can you forget MrBenchley?

He was a pantload

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Response to michreject (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 12:46 PM

28. selective amnesia. n/t

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Response to michreject (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 1, 2012, 08:57 PM

29. STEAMING pantload

 

Lest we forget.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:24 PM

45. oh, great big snork

 

I've linked to a couple of threads today already with the finest crop of gun militants' tombstones you could imagine.

Do you REALLY want to start counting heads that have rolled? I'll guess a couple of hundred gun militants, some of whom were around quite a while before expiring.

Benchley, as we aalllll know, fell afoul of the management decision in the Lamont/Lieberman debacle. Nothing to do with the Guns forum whatsoever. I believe that was the case for others you might name. Hankydubs?? How did I manage to miss that one? But huh, that one seems to be immediately cancelled out by Watson T in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4807426#4807674

Of course, it's hard to assess the death toll on the gun militant side, given the zombies and sock puppets that infest the place. C'mon, I've seen them boasting all over the net about their exploits here, and so have you.

Oh, and don't ever forget Joe Steel!

And more recently, Uncle Omar.

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Response to iverglas (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:01 AM

49. So it's all about who can get the most people banned?

That's kind of what I've suspected all along.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:20 AM

50. who got whom banned?

 

Did somebody say something about anybody getting anybody banned? Somebody here taking credit for Benchley? Or even the other names named? I won't take credit for ... oh, okay, I may have had a hand in Uncle Omar, just by laughing at his "anti-gun" antics so often and so loud ...

The usual procedure for right-wing gun-militant trolls at old DU was pretty much just to implode, under the watchful eye of a moderator. Here? Eternal life, I'm expecting.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 12:14 AM

18. Does that mean they're going to give up on microstamping?

Somebody keeps trying to slide that one through the state legislature every year. It always gets through the House and dies in the Senate.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 09:43 AM

25. As far as I know, CA is still waiting for a patent-free solution

CA actually passed the microstamping measure, but require that the solution not be encumbered by a patent.

The company that owns the patent (who is also the company pushing it in various state legislatures) offered to 'license' it for free (for a set time). No dice.

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:54 AM

21. How many years does it take for a suposedly "legal" gun purchase to be used in a crime?

I've heard gunnuts talk about how "legal" gun purchases are never used in gun crimes, that it's is YEARS before a "legal" gun is stolen and used in a crime. Soooo, why is it that a gun tracking system is vilified for not showing immediate results by the gun prolificaters? Should we not allow such a tracking system the same amount of time to prove itself as the gun prolificaters say it takes for a "legal" gun to become an illegal gun?

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 02:57 AM

22. Welcome to DU!

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 08:24 AM

23. $44 Million; 11 years; no results.

 

"why is it that a gun tracking system is vilified for not showing immediate results " They're finally admitting failure, as should you.


Maybe the conclusion should be it's not the legal gun owners or guns of NY doing the killing.


PS: I'm a proud "gunnut"; you're just nuts.

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 09:24 AM

24. quotation marks

around something that is literally true is so Glen Beck.
It is not just "gun nuts" it is also forensics experts. Any unique marks including rifling marks change with use. The objection is not about 2A, it is about people who know something on the subject pointing out the flaws in security theater. It is not even a tracking system, simply a collection of shell casings. Assuming one of these casings match one found at a crime, the cops would look up what individual or police dept. that bought it initially. Odds are, the investigators will hit a dead end with a stolen property report.

It is not the guns, it is the theater.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 10:15 AM

26. Glen Beck

 

No swearing.

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 3, 2012, 06:31 PM

30. Why, yes! Money is no object to the controllers. Years of it. nt

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 8, 2012, 05:27 PM

31. I don't know....

 

How many years do you expect it to take before the anti-gun crowd will accept that CCW in a state does not cause an increase in shootings? Its been well over 11 years with that in many states, and you still deny it....

11 years and not a single crime solved? I think its time to cut their losses and go home. It is not a beneficial system.

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 8, 2012, 05:34 PM

32. I have read that...

...the average time between the last legal sale and the recovery of a firearm illegally imported into Mexico was 14 years.


:epiphany:

F&F was aimed at eliminating the delay.

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 9, 2012, 01:39 PM

33. Really?

How long should we wait for a return on our investment? I live in NY and there are plenty of better things 44 Million dollars could be spend on than an obviously ineffective system. Do you realize how much 44 million dollars is and how much more worthwhile expenditures could be funded with that money. It sickens me to see how much money we wasted on some politicians pet project for the sake of his own ego and bragging rights.

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:43 PM

34. IIRC, the FBI says something like an average of 11 years from retail sale to crime.

 

Plenty of time for results to have occured. So, where are they?

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 10, 2012, 10:55 AM

36. 11 years is 'immediate'? Awesome, I can recover that spare room since my kid will be moving out

immediately.

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 10, 2012, 11:09 AM

37. So how many years without results should we wait?

 

How many years does it take for a suposedly "legal" gun purchase to be used in a crime?

I've heard gunnuts talk about how "legal" gun purchases are never used in gun crimes, that it's is YEARS before a "legal" gun is stolen and used in a crime. Soooo, why is it that a gun tracking system is vilified for not showing immediate results by the gun prolificaters? Should we not allow such a tracking system the same amount of time to prove itself as the gun prolificaters say it takes for a "legal" gun to become an illegal gun?


This project is 11 years old and has yielded no results. How many years should we wait before admitting failure? How much money should be spent?

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Response to Bloberman1959 (Reply #21)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:30 PM

46. no, please, not a voice of reason

 

$44M over 10 years ... $4M a year over what's the population of NY state?

Now just imagine how excited all these folks will get if we tell them how much the US is spending on its military adventures abroad!

A point I would add to yours: these measures are intended to have deterrent effects as well. If an owner of a firearm knows that a crime might be traced to their firearm through this measure, they might just think twice about transferring their firearm (intentionally or negligently) to an ineligible person, or storing it as negligently as they might otherwise have.

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Response to iverglas (Reply #46)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 11:36 PM

48. Deterrent effects.

Last edited Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:14 AM - Edit history (1)

$44M over 10 years ... $4M a year over what's the population of NY state?

Now just imagine how excited all these folks will get if we tell them how much the US is spending on its military adventures abroad!

Because we all know that everyone who doesn't like wasteful government spending on useless crime-prevention programs just loves profligate spending on reckless military adventures.

{Take broad brush and insert garble about foul right-wing scum here.}

A point I would add to yours: these measures are intended to have deterrent effects as well.

Deterrent effects? From a program that flat-out doesn't work? How about we just say we do it and save our money?

If an owner of a firearm knows that a crime might be traced to their firearm through this measure, they might just think twice about transferring their firearm (intentionally or negligently) to an ineligible person ...

In New York State, it is not possible to negligently transfer a handgun to an ineligible person. The buyer of the handgun must have a New York State pistol permit and must give the seller a permit-to-purchase coupon obtained from the sheriff's department. Anyone who is intentionally transferring a handgun to an ineligible person is committing a felony and knows it. There may be people stupid enough to illegally sell a handgun that is registered to them, but apparently not enough of them to yield any COBIS-based convictions in a ten-year period. Dealers in black market firearms are generally smart enough to select product that has no paper trail, or at least not one that leads back to them. No, I don't think COBIS caused any black market gun dealers to mend their ways.

... or storing it as negligently as they might otherwise have.

You do know that once the gun is reported stolen, the former owner is not legally responsible for what is done with it, right? There may be questions of ethics and a tortured conscience, but believe me, the State of New York didn't spend $44 million on this program in order to make gun owners feel guilty about negligent storage.

Actual effects of COBIS:

-- provided jobs for state police officers who administer the program
-- gave New York State a pretty good collection of brass that it can sell as scrap metal to help recoup some of the expenses of the program
-- brought revolvers back into vogue as crime guns

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Thu Feb 9, 2012, 10:48 PM

35. 1. They've spent $123.60 per casing. No results. Huh. Whodathunkit.

 

2. NY has only had 356K gun sales in 11 years? Fucking pitifully weak market repressed by government fiat.

Sad all around.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 10, 2012, 11:23 AM

38. New York...

...more than any other place seems to have discovered a source of limitless cash which can be spent with almost no hope of anything productive.

I have this idea that, in the true spirit of big government, if we can somehow vilify hammers and toilet seats as much as guns (federal precedent has these items priced hundreds of times higher than bullets and they're spending over $100 on each bullet) and then convince New York to start a buy-back program for them, the economy will be booming in no time.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #38)

Fri Feb 10, 2012, 02:49 PM

39. There I was, drinking perfectly good coffee...

 

and... err...

O.K., what happened to the "spew" smilie?!

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 04:53 PM

40. Sorry X Digger, you and the good folks

over at ammoland may have jumped the gun on the end of ballistic fingerprinting.

Urging the State Senate to Include Microstamping in Budget

Assemblywoman Schimel calls for inclusion of CoBIS in state budget.

On Valentine’s Day, family members who have lost loved ones to gun violence along with advocates and law enforcement officials joined senators and assemblymembers at the state capitol to urge the state senate to include microstamping in their budget proposal. The governor’s executive budget eliminates CoBIS, the state’s pistol and revolver ballistic identification database, leaving a gap in the ability of law enforcement to link shell casings back to the gun that fired them.

http://newhydepark.patch.com/articles/urging-the-state-senate-to-include-microstamping-in-budget

These well-meaning people are again ready to start wasting taxpayers money on a program that has spent $44 million that has accomplished next to nothing. But, its pretty easy when it ain't your money. But with all the surplus money floating around in NY, they gotta spend it on something.

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Response to burf (Reply #40)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 04:56 PM

42. what's a 44 million dollar failure, when you have an agenda to push...

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Response to burf (Reply #40)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 07:36 PM

47. Time to start checking Rep. Schimel's campaign contributions

Maybe she can get a bidding war going between CoBIS and manufacturers of diamond nail files...

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Response to X_Digger (Original post)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 04:55 PM

41. If bullet tracking doesn't work the only answer is a total ban...

mark my word that's how this will end up being turned around and a 44 million buck failure will be used for more invasive means of control.

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Response to ileus (Reply #41)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:08 PM

43. What other option do they have?

The line will be how the anti's tried for the old standby of "common sense" methods, and the eeeevil gun lobby (consisting off the irrelevant NRA) have stood in the way. Will they mention that the govenor was the one who wanted to discontinue funding for the program? My bet is probably not.

I guess they could make a law that requires anyone who has shot someone must turn the weapon over to police for testing.

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Response to burf (Reply #43)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:19 PM

44. That is already being done. State/ county/ city backed "no questions asked" buy backs

And they are getting a $100 debit card for doing it!!

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