Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumRobbed at Gunpoint, Some Gamble With Their Lives
The first armed robbery attempt was in October, on a residential Bronx block near an elevated train stop. The victim fought back. He was shot in the leg.
The next came a month later and roughly a mile away. Once again, the victim resisted and was shot.
After the third robbery attempt, in February, two distinct patterns became apparent. The police suspected a single group was to blame, a group that cruised in cars and attacked lone men at night. But a more unusual pattern was seen among the three victims: when faced with a gun and a straightforward proposition your money or your life they had opted to take their chances with their lives.
Being held at gunpoint, for some people, is not that scary, said Brian Melford, 21, a Bronx youth activist and student at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Around here, people think theyre strong. They just say, Im not going to give it up.
Criminologists have for decades studied the responses of victims to violent crime. Robberies in particular became a topic of scholarly research in the 1980s and 1990s, as random street crime spread through urban areas, with those studies mostly confirming the obvious: if you resist a robber, you are more likely to get hurt or, possibly, killed.
From any perspective of rationality, the thing to do with a robber is to cooperate politely, said Franklin E. Zimring, a criminologist at Berkeley Law School. But, he added, both robbers and recalcitrant victims have never been the most rational actors.
You dont have much money on you; its nuts for the victim to refuse, he said. Heres the second layer of nuts: Youve got a rational robber. If the victim refuses, why doesnt he just find somebody else?
National victim surveys in more recent years suggest little change in the number of people standing up to their muggers, or even a slight decrease.
But with decade-long declines in crime, some scholars have noted a change in the nature of robberies. A 2009 study of national victim surveys taken since 1993 found that not only were robberies becoming less frequent over time, they were also becoming more violent, in part because of what the authors describe as victim hardening.
full: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/nyregion/robbed-at-gunpoint-some-bronx-victims-resist.html?pagewanted=all
For some people in the Bronx, lose your money=lose your next meal. But isn't it generally safer to just surrender your belongings if you get mugged?
Warpy
(111,237 posts)was in Boston. I was heavily laden with groceries for a dinner party that night and saw the two punks start to follow me into the building foyer, reflected in the glass.
I made a split second decision that anything they were going to do to me was going to be done right out on the street in front of everybody and that I was going to get a really good look at them in the process.
So I wheeled around and stared back down the steps looking them full in their faces and said "Hiya!" They took off.
I found out they were both armed later. It wouldn't have made any difference in how I handled it.
It taught me that if you're unpredictable, they might leave and pick on somebody whose behavior they can predict.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)he is a law professor.
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/php-programs/faculty/facultyProfile.php?facID=127
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.2004.tb00539.x/abstract
a study done by real criminologists using DoJ statistics says the opposite.
http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/p/faculty-gary-kleck.php
Also, criminologists have not studied the issue for decades, a few became interested and actually studied the subject in the 1990s.
lastlib
(23,204 posts)...with HIS OWN (Concealed) gun in a street robbery. A concealed gun in the hands of a trained law enforcement officer became the instrument of his murder. How would a concealed gun make an average civilian safe?? Don't try to feed anybody any bullsh*t about a "good guy with a gun" stopping a "bad guy with a gun"! It doesn't work.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)nor are they god like. anecdotes are not valid arguments. The facts of the case are also unknown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
BTW, link?
lastlib
(23,204 posts)is s'posed to stop "a bad guy with a gun"! Wayne LaPee-Error said so. He wasn't lying to us, was he?? If anecdotes aren't valid, how come you gungeoneers keep putting them out there?? NRA has done it on a massive scale in their literature. Is it just that your anecdotes are good, ours bad?? And I know the facts of this case very well. You can look it up and figure it out.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)There are not guarantees. Statistically, as the peer reviewed study I put a link to shows, your odds are better.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)when all your arguments are placed side by side, you end up contradicting yourself.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)as it has been pointed out before, most states have a training requirement for concealed carry,
those who carry by choice, non LEs, generally go to the range on a regular basis. Most cops go only a couple of times a year. Granted there are a few states that have no permit requirement, like Vermont, and there are those with no standards other than BSing a judge or being rich, like New York.
Try to keep up.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)There are others, like Texas, that have a training standard and testing standard that ALL CHL holders have to meet.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm
I could not find any listing of California State laws for the testing for a concealed carry license.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The key to using a concealed gun in self-defense is to spot trouble coming. Then you can be ready. There are lots of training videos available on the body language (Police call them pre-assault indicators) that muggers display.
Further, muggers use some rather well-defined tactics, which a person can learn. Be alert and if you see someone trying to use those tactics on you, you know trouble is coming.
Some places are more crime prone that others. Learn to recognize trouble areas.
FBI agents are trained in investigations, not necessarily in street tactics.
You are trying to make a general rule from a single example. You are displaying bad logic.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)It's not worth it to risk losing your life or taking the life of another.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)respected social scientists and take my chances. Not resisting is also risking losing your life.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)This was the common thinking about hijackings prior to 9/11, didn't work out so well, did it?
Many people do not assume they can buy their safety when someone mortgages their life/safety, against their own property.
You dont have much money on you; its nuts for the victim to refuse, he said. Heres the second layer of nuts: Youve got a rational robber. If the victim refuses, why doesnt he just find somebody else?
Because for robbers, there's likely a component to the motive, like rape isn't just about getting off. It's about power. It doesn't necessarily have much if anything to do with the minimal value in someone's wallet.
Worse, as people use Plastic more and more, one phone call to the bank, and those cards turn off. So that actually gives the robber incentive to kill or hospitalize you to gain more time to use your cards before they are disabled.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)There oughta be a law! Lets make it illegal to resist muggers. We'll just standardize the entire process. If somebody walks up to you and demands everything you own, you have to give it to them in the interest of public safety. Shit, it works on Wall Street, it oughta work everywhere.
For fucks sake, what'll they think of next?
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)Heaven forbid we should upset some criminal.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)If you have to give up your money in a courteous manner, I guess you would have to redefine rape as some sort of social "arrangement of manners" as well. Call it "assault with a friendly weapon." That's where the goofy logic leads.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)I was robbed at gunpoint once, at least I think I was, will never know for sure; there were 3 guys, & as I had just gotten into my car they asked for directions & I started to give them then one said he had a gun under a newspaper he was carrying (I suspect not now, but at the time wasn't about to argue), and they wanted my wallet & car keys, so I figured that was all they wanted so I complied, not nervous just matter of fact, no thumping heart no shakes, just a 'sure whatever you say'. They just walked off slowly, in broad daylight too. Later charged $1500 to a bank card but I wasn't responsible as I reported robbery to local cops within an hour - they took my car keys but not the second ignition set hiding in the glove comptmt, so quickly drove to PD after they'd gone around the corner, closer to 15 minutes.
I'm glad I didn't have a gun then, for if they did have gun or guns I'd likely be a leaky sieve & them going 'he pulled a gun on us & we were just asking directions, racist!'
And if they didn't have guns & I pulled a gun, similar, 'we were just asking directions & he pulled a gun on us!', not a legal suit they could win, but a pain in the *** nonetheless if they filed one.
I can thinks of hundreds & hundreds of times I'm glad I never had a gun, but not once where I wished I'd had one.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Usually, the thug has a criminal record and doesn't want to talk to police about anything. Please note that rare does not mean never.
However, if you ever do have to display a gun to defend against a thug, call police and report it immediately.
From time to time, news stories are posted here of people who cooperate with a criminal and are murdered anyway. Cooperation is not a guarantee of personal safety.
sylvi
(813 posts)then you probably shouldn't have one.
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)sylvie: If you "can thinks of hundreds & hundreds of times I'm glad I never had a gun", then you probably shouldn't have one
An obviously prejudiced, & twisted, insult. I've owned two longguns in the past & am familiar with guns, having been a marksman in the navy. Guns have utility as law enforcement & military & home defense tools (yes tools, meant to incapacitate), but not every j*rkwad wanting to carry one around in public places simply cause he's afraid of public places.
I'm glad I didn't have a gun while in college, or at HS prom - jimmy's got a gun - or at work where it would've been more a hazard than any sort of trumped up protection - jimmy packs heat;
I'm glad I didn't have a gun while walking about the neighborhood, word might get around I was a 'gun carrier' & the stigma attached to being one, in a neighborhood. People will actually think of 'their' guns if they see you.
I'm glad I didn't have a gun while visiting foreign countries, their gun laws tend stricter & I never had a use for one there anyway. Two waifs tried to strip a camera off my neck near the paris louvre' art museum, a gun could've been accidentally triggered by them or even stolen, & I was never in real danger & would never have considered shooting them anyway (the girls failed, rather pathetic thieves but I didn't report).
And while I was indeed a marksman, I never carried while on navy ships, and I'm glad I didn't.
sylvi
(813 posts)I'm glad I didn't have a gun when I took my last flight, it would have set off the metal detector.
I'm glad I didn't have gun when I had surgery, it could have slipped off the operating table and smashed the surgeon's toe in mid-cut.
It's odd to proclaim one "can think of hundreds & hundreds of times I'm glad I never had a gun" and be talking about places and situations were a gun is not allowed or appropriate to begin with. Where is he point in that? By that standard, we all have plenty of times when we could say we're "glad we didn't have a gun".
Normally, when one makes such a statement they're talking about times when they've been provoked or angry and might have used one injudiciously due to poor impulse control.
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)sylvie: It's odd to proclaim one "can think of hundreds & hundreds of times I'm glad I never had a gun" and be talking about places and situations were a gun is not allowed or appropriate to begin with. Where is he point in that?
Are you kidding me? you answer with more prejudice & another insult, as if it's 'my' fault you jumped to a conclusion & it's 'my' fault I mislead you there.
Places where a gun is not allowed or not appropriate to begin with? Like when I wrote I was glad I didn't have a gun at college, where the current gunnutted craze is concealed carry at colleges? Like at a prom where alcohol is served & ccw has been allowed at bars & restaurants now in some states? Yeah I'm glad I didn't have a gun in college, cause other people didn't have one either.
Or carrying a gun at work? some states cannot disallow this anymore so people CAN carry at work, but I was glad I never did & I never once thought I needed a gun at work.
And I was glad I didn't carry in the neighborhood, yet another gunnut craze is to legitimize open & concealed carry while walking about the neighborhood as if it were making the area safer not scaring the cr** out of some folk who know you gotta gun - that old 'armed society polite society bs'.
On ships & overseas were personal anecdotes, but hardly the jist.
.. sylvie evidently is against student ccw or guns on colleges (inappropriate) or where alcohol is served, or ccw or guns at work, or ccw or open carry in the hoods, eh? I don't really think so.
By that standard, we all have plenty of times when we could say we're "glad we didn't have a gun".
Expound, with your newfound enlightenment as to what I was driving at. Are you glad you didn't have a gun on campus? (if you ever had one).
Normally, when one makes such a statement they're talking about times when they've been provoked or angry and might have used one injudiciously due to poor impulse control.
Nope, just another insult as well as a non sequitur created from prejudice, & some desire for a cheapshot;
sylvi
(813 posts)You made it quite clear. "can think of hundreds & hundreds of times I'm glad I never had a gun", and then you go on to list mundane situations where most people wouldn't carry a gun anyway. The Prom? Really? What high school kid thinks to carry a gun to a Prom anyway, unless you're a maniac school shooter. You saying you're "glad you didn't" seems to indicate you would have considered it to begin with, which indicates to me again that, no, you shouldn't have a gun.
Or maybe you just have an odd way of speaking?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Things never escalated to me feeling the need to display or engage deadly force to protect myself, so in those situations, nobody was the wiser that I was carrying, and the option was open to me if I truly needed it.
sylvi
(813 posts)That person is willing to kill me over a minor matter, the ten dollars in my wallet. Why would I disbelieve him?
And if he's willing to kill me over the ten dollars in my wallet, a minor matter, why wouldn't I believe he's willing to kill me over something major, like the thought of pursuing him, or identifying him to the police?
Of course every situation is different. For example, if I'm a bystander in a crowded store that's being robbed, and no one's being herded to the back or the like, the chance of me being executed drops dramatically.
But if it's a one on one situation in a relatively isolated spot, if I have the shot I'm taking it.