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Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:24 PM

The AW most frequently used in crime wasn’t a rifle.

Seldom mentioned in discussions about the 1994 FEDERAL ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN is the fact that the assault weapon most used in crime at that time was an assault pistol, the Intratec TEC-9.
An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003 http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/research/aw_final2004.pdf Page 2 & 4
The study linked below contains more than 20 examples of assault pistols currently marketed in the United States, led by AK-47 and AR-15 pistols that offer assault rifle power in a compact pistol format. Each of the assault pistols detailed in the study would be banned by legislation introduced last week by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA).

Assault Pistols, the Next Wave http://www.vpc.org/studies/awpistols.pdf
Today, more assault pistol makes and models are available than ever before for civilian sale in the United States. They range from models that were named under the now-expired federal assault weapons ban (such as the UZI pistol, MAC-10, and Calico) to newer models such as the AK-47 and AR-15 pistols. As a 2011 article published in Handguns magazine titled “AR Pistols: The Hugely Popular Rifle Platform Makes a Pretty Cool Handgun as Well” noted, “There's no doubt in the last few years that AR pistols have become extremely popular.”…………… In a segment of his cable television show Ted Nugent’s Spirit of the Wild titled “Uncle Ted’s Favorite Guns,” National Rifle Association Board Member Ted Nugent cheerfully acknowledged the military pedigree and lauded the rifle power of the Century International Arms Centurion 39 AK-47 pistol, “This is a variation of what they lovingly refer to as the Kalashnikov, the AK-47....This is a handgun version, almost what you see the bad guys in Afghanistan use...7.62 x 39mm, out of a little, short, rifle basically, but it’s a handgun, this is a handgun. It’s legal, without a Class III ATF forms.”

Are there any gun enthusiasts even if they’re opposed to the assault rifle ban that could support an assault pistol ban?

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Arrow 13 replies Author Time Post
Reply The AW most frequently used in crime wasn’t a rifle. (Original post)
russ1943 Feb 2013 OP
derby378 Feb 2013 #1
rdharma Feb 2013 #2
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2013 #4
krispos42 Feb 2013 #3
russ1943 Feb 2013 #6
ileus Feb 2013 #5
rdharma Feb 2013 #7
SQUEE Feb 2013 #8
Ashgrey77 Feb 2013 #9
slackmaster Feb 2013 #10
SQUEE Feb 2013 #11
iiibbb Feb 2013 #12
rdharma Feb 2013 #13

Response to russ1943 (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:41 PM

1. My take

The AK-47 pistols (like the Centurion and Draco) are problematic for American gun owners, although the full-size carbines and those SBR models available under NFA are not really an issue. See, the law on armor-piercing ammunition in the United States is that such bullets are banned for handguns. Since those AK pistols are classified as handguns despite the fact that they use rifle ammunition, that means any armor-piercing rounds in 7.62x39mm are banned in America. The AK-74, on the other hand, uses 5.45x39mm rounds, and I have yet to see an AK-74 pistol make the scene on these shores, so armor-piercing ammo for those rifles is technically still legal, but extremely rare to find.

I've also fired Uzis, both semi-auto and full-auto. The semi-auto version seems to kick into my shoulder more than the full-auto version for some reason.

I used to own a TEC-9, which was a mistake. Jams fairly frequently, sights cannot be adjusted. Good thing I never fired it.

As far as the legal aspects, I don't think a semi-auto Mac-11 or Uzi can be considered a "handgun" in terms of CHL laws, so you can't walk down the street with one tucked under your blazer without the cops making a considerable show of force in detaining you. For home defense, I have no objection. They just wouldn't be my first choice.

If you wanted to get serious about gun laws, you could propose that only guns suitable for use by "a well-regulated militia" could be sold in America. AK and AR rifles are proven militia-quality weapons. The TEC-9 and MAC-11, IMHO, are not.

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Response to russ1943 (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:42 PM

2. Herp derp!

 

I love it when the gun nutters think they have made some really important "GOTCHA" point over firearms terminology.

Ol' Skeeter flashes a big one toothed smile when some "librul" mistakenly calls a feeding device (magazine) for an M-16/AR-15 a "clip"!

Weehawww, y'all!!

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Response to rdharma (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:57 PM

4. yeehaa!



Alcohol, tobacco and firearms... anyone have any chips?

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Response to russ1943 (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:48 PM

3. Are they being used in crimes?

Bear in mind that plenty of "regular" handguns are more powerful shot-per-shot than anything from a AR-15 pistol. And plenty of regular pistols can take 30 round magazines.



These pistols based on semiautomatic rifles are much larger than "regular" handguns, much heavier, and much harder to conceal. Not to mention a lot more expensive. And I'll be the recoil is plenty sharp, too.


An AR-15 handgun seems to generate about 750 ft-pounds of energy. That's less than a 44 Magnum, more than a .357 Magnum.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:21 PM

6. .....it is not possible to determine these guns’ use in crime in the United States.........

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awpistols.pdf pages 6 & 7

…….due to Tiahrt Amendment restrictions on the release of formerly available federal crime gun trace data20 it is not possible to determine these guns’ use in crime in the United States beyond the anecdotal—of which there are numerous examples as reported by Nexis.
For example: "CHP officer shot Sunday evening," The Bakersfield Californian, May 7, 2012, “A California Highway Patrol officer suffered injuries to his hand and chest when an occupant of an SUV opened fire on him Sunday evening...The weapon used was a 9-millimeter handgun, possibly a MAC 10-type"; "Prosecutor seeks more prison for terror threats," The Associated Press State & Local Wire, April 28, 2012, "Prosecutors had wanted to throw the book at Olutosin Oduwole, arguing that the aspiring rapper's note threatening a Virginia Tech-like killing spree while he attended a southwestern Illinois university justified a maximum 15-year prison sentence. What Oduwole got last December was just five years behind bars...A gun dealer had tipped them off earlier in the month that Oduwole appeared overly anxious to get four semiautomatic weapons including an UZI-like MAC 10 that he had ordered; "State AG: Shooter, woman found dead in Greenland home,” Foster's Daily Democrat (New Hampshire), April 14, 2012, "Many questions remain after the man investigators believe shot and killed Police Chief Mike Maloney and injured four other officers was found dead inside his residence early Friday morning...Investigators reportedly also believe a semi-automatic assault pistol was likely used in the shootout with police"; "Man in crime spree sentenced to 44 years," December 16, 2011, The Kansas City Star, "The bullet that ended Lee Malek’s police career also ended the short, violent and prolific criminal rampage of the man who fired it...He had just been promoted to sergeant in June 2007 when his patrol car was nearly hit by a reckless driver. The car had been stolen at gunpoint a few hours earlier in Kansas City, Kan., and Malek pursued the vehicle until it stalled. The driver...jumped out with a MAC-10 semiautomatic and began firing at Malek, who fired back"; "Police say Fort Drum soldier had assault pistol loaded with 100 rounds," Watertown Daily Times (New York), October 27, 2011, "Watertown police say a Fort Drum soldier was found possessing three guns, including an assault weapon loaded with 100 rounds, during a disturbance early Saturday morning...in the bed of the truck was a KelTec PLR-16 .223 caliber gas-operated semi-automatic pistol loaded with 100 rounds"; "Memories didn't die with officer," San Antonio Express-News, October 23, 2011, "Next, Garcia carried his MAC-10 to the porch and fired at his wife's relatives...When the MAC-10 ran out of ammunition, Garcia went back into the house, reappeared holding an AK-47 and shot wildly until that weapon ran out of bullets, too"; "Two Berkeley men arrested, guns seized in possible retaliation mission," Contra Costa Times (California), September 9, 2011, "Two Berkeley men who police believe were in East Oakland to avenge a friend's recent slaying were arrested Thursday night and three loaded guns, including an assault pistol, were recovered during a police response that saw the evacuation of a market...."; "Man sought in robbery of South Fayette gun shop," Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, June 9, 2011, "Police are looking for a man who entered a South Fayette gun store just after 10 a.m. Wednesday, shot a clerk in an arm and the chest stole a .45-caliber handgun...Police believe the suspect is armed with a MAC-10 assault pistol."

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Response to russ1943 (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:06 PM

5. I'd love to have an AR pistol.

All this talk about AR not being the best HD firearm got me to thinking. The pistol would give one the firepower of a rifle along with a 30 round mag, while saving 15" of length.



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Response to ileus (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 08:44 AM

8. I've had 4, I build them as pistols as I wait for my tax stamps to come back.

Also have a Draco, and mini draco, both now have stamps and underfolders. They are excellent back pack set ups for camping and hiking.
Aside from loss of power, the muzzle flash is quite large, but in terms of home intruder distances, they are still very effective, and with the proper loads very good, and accurate platforms.
The other problem is that uninformed LEO and range goers make the AR pistols a chore, always explaining the difference between a buffer tube and a stock I carry a copy of the ATF letter on them with me whenever i have them. Along with that I also notice that they tend to be more "intimidating" to uninformed people as they look more like an SMG, hence I don't take them out to the ranges here and do all my shooting with them on my own land.

To me the entire SBR tax is silly, though compact, my SBRs are not that easily concealable, and the arbitrary 16/26 inch limits does nothing for safety and is again a ban on appearance and scary factor.

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 04:04 PM

9. I'd love to have a SBR'd Draco with a sidefolder for home defense.

And I fully agree that barrel length restrictions are ridiculous and do nothing to prevent crime.

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Response to russ1943 (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 10:06 PM

10. Interesting factoid, but frankly it's a POS, jam-o-matic pistol and I would never pay a dime for one

 

Even if it was legal in my state.

And no, I believe in freedom of choice so I would not support a ban of any type of firearm.

The theory that banning that particular handgun because it happened to have been popular in crime during some period of time would actually reduce criminal misuse of handguns strikes me as magical thinking.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #10)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 09:26 AM

11. I actually feel safer knowing that bad actors are using shitty guns

and stupid novelty magazines.
I say let people have cool looking but shitty functioning firearms, they seem to be saving lives.
Cho showed what a mad man with some practice and a squared away kit is capable of.
I admit I dread the day that a real threat emerges, and has to "get it on"

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #11)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 09:32 AM

12. yup

 

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Response to iiibbb (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 9, 2013, 03:24 PM

13. That's not a real firearm.......

 

.... it's a tear gas gun. Not likely to kill anybody.

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