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Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:23 PM

A Hospital Offers a Grisly Lesson on Gun Violence

PHILADELPHIA In a darkened classroom, 15 eighth graders gasped as a photograph appeared on the screen in front of them. It showed a dead man whose jaw had been destroyed by a shotgun blast, leaving the lower half of his face a shapeless, bloody mess.

Next came a picture of the bullet-perforated legs of someone who had been shot with an AK-47 assault rifle, and then one of the bloated abdomen of a gunshot victim with internal injuries so grievous that the patient had to be fitted with a colostomy bag to replace intestines that can no longer function normally.

These are among about 500 gunshot victims who are treated each year at Temple University Hospital, an institution in the heart of impoverished, crime-ridden North Philadelphia. While President Obama and Congressional leaders debate legislation intended to prevent mass killings like the elementary school shooting in Newtown, Conn., the hospital is trying to slow the rate of street killings by helping teenagers understand the realities of gun violence.

The unusual program, called Cradle to Grave, brings in youths from across Philadelphia in the hope that an unflinching look at the effects that guns have in their community will deter young people from reaching for a gun to settle personal scores, and will help them recognize that gun violence is not the glamorous business sometimes depicted in television shows and rap music.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/us/07philly.html?hpw&_r=0

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Arrow 18 replies Author Time Post
Reply A Hospital Offers a Grisly Lesson on Gun Violence (Original post)
SecularMotion Feb 2013 OP
krispos42 Feb 2013 #1
slackmaster Feb 2013 #2
thucythucy Feb 2013 #7
slackmaster Feb 2013 #8
thucythucy Feb 2013 #9
slackmaster Feb 2013 #11
thucythucy Feb 2013 #12
slackmaster Feb 2013 #13
thucythucy Feb 2013 #14
gejohnston Feb 2013 #15
thucythucy Feb 2013 #16
gejohnston Feb 2013 #17
Common Sense Party Feb 2013 #3
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2013 #4
derby378 Feb 2013 #5
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #6
Straw Man Feb 2013 #10
jimmy the one Feb 2013 #18

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:39 PM

1. Good.

This is critical for understanding the difference between fantasy and video games and movies, and real life.


If they could include the smells and sounds, that would be even better.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:41 PM

2. Education is good. Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools as well.

 

Every student should be given the opportunity to learn how to safely handle and unload the most common types of firearms, in case they encounter one that has not been properly secured by a negligent owner, or discarded in haste by a criminal.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:42 PM

7. And why don't we teach kids how to disarm bombs

as well, while we're at it?

Instead of encouraging children to handle a weapon, I'd rather teach them to REPORT an unsafe weapon as soon as possible to their parents, or to an adult they trust, or even to the police if necessary.

Particularly younger kids should be taught: NEVER handle a weapon without adult supervision. NEVER.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:44 PM

8. That's a Red Herring. It's unlikely that a person is ever going to be in a situation where...

 

...that kind of knowledge is needed.

Instead of encouraging children to handle a weapon...

Please don't falsely attribute ideas to me. I support helping children to comprehend that firearms are dangerous and not to be treated lightly. I also walk that walk.

Particularly younger kids should be taught: NEVER handle a weapon without adult supervision. NEVER.

On this point you and I are in complete agreement.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 07:53 PM

9. The bomb comment was obvious hyberbole

to illustrate my point.

As for "falsely attributing ideas" to you, this is exactly what you said:

"Every student should be given the opportunity to learn how to safely handle and unload the most common types of firearms, in case they encounter one that has not been properly secured by a negligent owner, or discarded in haste by a criminal."

So yes, you were saying children should be encouraged to handle weapons they might find. The words "handle and unload" were yours. "Every student" presumably means children, since we're talking here about eighth graders.

If you want to walk back from your assertion--as you obviously do--that's fine. But don't accuse me of being "false" when I'm merely calling you on what I think is a dumb idea.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #9)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:13 PM

11. I doubt that you really understand what I meant by safe handling

 

It's not about encouraging children or anyone else to handle firearms in a frivolous manner.

You certainly do need to know how to safely handle a weapon in order to unload it.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #11)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:58 PM

12. When we're talking about children

there's no such thing as "safe handling" of a discarded weapon.

I repeat: a child should never "handle," should never "touch" a weapon, unless a responsible adult is present. Ever.

If they see an untended gun they should be taught to LEAVE IT ALONE and immediately report it to a responsible adult.

The idea that a child should be taught how to unload a discarded weapon is ridiculous. That a child should handle a weapon "discarded by a criminal" is even worse. That weapon might be evidence. It might be part of a crime scene. A child handling such a weapon might smear fingerprints, might alter the scene. Not to mention accidentally discharging the weapon, harming him/herself or others. In fact, even adults, finding such a weapon, should call the police.

Really, this isn't rocket science. I understand the NRA and other pro-gun groups want to enlist children as consumers, much as the tobacco industry wanted to enlist them as smokers. And that part of this effort is to introduce guns to younger and younger children.

But it's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. Children should be taught NOT to handle weapons, unless in the presence of a responsible adult. Ever ever ever. Period.

Really, I'm astonished that you're even arguing this point.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:02 PM

13. I'm not arguing the point you think I'm arguing

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 09:22 PM

14. Well then, you need to clarify.

You started out by saying children had to be taught gun safety so that, in the event they found a weapon left untended by a negligent owner, or discarded by a criminal, they'd know how to unload it safely.

If you've re-thought that notion, and now disown it, fine. Everyone makes mistakes or floats a fail on the internet from time to time. I myself am not immune--I've floated some howlers in my time. It happens.

But I need to see you spell that out for me, for my own peace of mind. If you are a gun owner (and I suspect you are) and if you're ever around children, I need to know you're not going to be teaching eighth graders how to "safely" unload a discarded weapon without an adult being present. It's just that important to me.

So I'll say it again: the first rule of gun safety for children is to never handle a gun unless a responsible adult is present. From there you can progress onto other matters, such as the second rule: ALWAYS treat a gun as if it's loaded, ALWAYS. Even if you know or think you know it isn't. That means NEVER pointing a weapon at anyone, EVER. And from there we can go on to other rules.

Sorry to be so dogmatic about this, and lecturing and hectoring you, but mixing children with guns allows for no mistakes, no grey areas, no misunderstandings. The results can be far too tragic.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 10:47 PM

15. actually, the NRA doesn't need any help with that

the video game industry seems to be doing a good job of that.

Really, this isn't rocket science. I understand the NRA and other pro-gun groups want to enlist children as consumers, much as the tobacco industry wanted to enlist them as smokers. And that part of this effort is to introduce guns to younger and younger children.
Actually no. People have been introduced to the shooting sports as kids since forever, usually parents or school. Has nothing to do with the the NRA, NFA, ProTell, ASSF, or UK-NRA for that matter.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 11:18 PM

16. Yeah, well, whether it needs the help or not

the NRA has definitely decided of late to get into the act:

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-releases-shooting-game-kids-161352568--abc-news-tech.html

You'll notice that the game was first marketed to kids as young as four. This after the NRA came out with a statement blaming video games for Newtown.

At any rate, my main point here is that it's irresponsible to teach children, as a part of "gun safety," that they should attempt by themselves to unload a weapon if they find one unattended. "Gun safety" to me means teaching kids to report such a weapon to the nearest responsible adult, and to leave it alone until that adult arrives.

Or do you think minor children -- in this case eighth graders -- should be in the business of unloading firearms on their own?



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Response to thucythucy (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 11:39 PM

17. it is a culture thing.

You'll notice that the game was first marketed to kids as young as four. This after the NRA came out with a statement blaming video games for Newtown.
that was the claim, but I don't know of any four year olds with iPads? Did the NRA in fact create this? IOW, I doubt the accuracy of the article. News of it came out after the Sandy Hook massacre, I tend to think it is disinformation kind of like Bloomburg pouring buying ad space about "the NRA wanting to let child molesters and felons have CCWs" or anything from the Kochs. IOW, unless I can find it on the NRA website to download, I am skeptical of the claim. The high school teacher that influenced me the most was a liberal transplant from NYC. He was an English teacher, but he did a very good job of teaching critical thinking skills to us hicks. One thing I learned from him was to question the left as much as the right.
BTW, notice the targets are paper or maybe skeet and not humans? I would rather my kid play this one than Hitman. With that in mind, I have to question your logic since one is archery with noise.

At any rate, my main point here is that it's irresponsible to teach children, as a part of "gun safety," that they should attempt by themselves to unload a weapon if they find one unattended. "Gun safety" to me means teaching kids to report such a weapon to the nearest responsible adult, and to leave it alone until that adult arrives.
Depends on the age and local culture. From what I understand of the Billy Hooks safety program in New Zealand, actually does past a certain age.

Or do you think minor children -- in this case eighth graders -- should be in the business of unloading firearms on their own?
Eighth graders are generally what, 14? Just a few years older, we think nothing of letting kids control something far more lethal and destructive than a firearm. Until Finland joined the EU, they could buy a gun at 15. In Canada, a 12 YO can buy ammo with a minors permit (subsistence hunters can get them as young as nine) and hunt and target shoot without adult supervision. I got my first gun at eight, a single shot .22 rifle. I also rode my bike anywhere in the city at nine without people getting paranoid about becoming a picture on a milk carton. Many states require hunter safety courses, and I have had students that young. From what I understand the reasoning behind NYPD having 12 pound trigger pulls, the average 12 year old in Montana or Wyoming is more responsible and safe than NYPD. I think you underestimate the maturity and intellect of young teens. My high school had a rifle team. We had an after school rifle club, so yeah I took a gun to school once a week for a year. One of my classmates, and still Facebook friends, was so good he lettered in shooting and the school bought him a gun.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:45 PM

3. Good, much like the grisly films we had to see in Driver's Ed.

Of course you're always going to have your oddball, twisted Lanza-type or Klebold-type, for whom this type of imagery would be, basically, porn.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 12:51 PM

4. k & r

Funding for more programs like Temple's Cradle to Grave would be good. I'd like to see organizations on both sides of the debate spend some dollars on that. The NRA has the deepest pockets and I would hope that they would spend the most.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 01:01 PM

5. I don't have a problem with this

At the medical center where I used to work, I had access to a book filled with injuries caused by bullets. Some of them were hard to look at, but I knew I needed to in order to gain a better perspective of what sort of injuries I could inflict by shooting someone.

Shotgun blasts are surprisingly some of the least traumatic and some of the most traumatic. I saw a picture of someone who took a shotgun blast to the face at point-blank range and somehow lived through the ordeal. Very grisly and difficult to look at.

A little knowledge can go a long way. If you're going to own a gun, knowing the muzzle velocity is one thing, but knowing what that muzzle velocity can do do human tissue is something else.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 01:30 PM

6. Good stuff.

Guns are serious business. Anything we can do to dispel any casual mindset around them, is beneficial.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Thu Feb 7, 2013, 08:13 PM

10. I think this is an excellent idea.

Just like the gruesome driver ed films we all had to watch. Keeps it real. Didn't stop anyone from driving a car, but ideally kept them from doing so recklessly.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 06:38 AM

18. why you don't wanna get shot by an m16

15 eighth graders gasped as a photograph appeared on the screen in front of them. It showed a dead man whose jaw had been destroyed by a shotgun blast, leaving the lower half of his face a shapeless, bloody mess.

Sounds like a suicide;

Next came a picture of the bullet-perforated legs of someone who had been shot with an AK-47 assault rifle,

.. you've read about it, see upper leg injury from .223 fmj, note the bone break:

Warning - Graphic pictures depicting severe upper leg injury from m16, same as what an AR15 could do:

Why you do not want to get shot with an M16...(Warning: Disturbing ...

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

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