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Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:13 PM

So, is the real problem that we have a culture of GUNS...

...or that we have a culture of VIOLENCE?

I suppose it could be both, but if you had to choose the bigger problem, do you think it's the specific weapons (i.e., guns), or it's the rampant violence?

If you're in favor of banning guns (any or all), is it because you think it's easier to get rid of the objects than it is to change the proclivity toward violence? And if you get rid of the guns (any or all), will that cause a long-lasting, significant reduction in violent crimes? Or will violent people still find ways to hurt other people?

If you think the problem is the violence--that violent people will always find ways to hurt and kill others, even if certain specific weapons are banned or more difficult to get--then how do we actually change the culture of violence?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:21 PM

1. If we get rid of the industrial-strength killing machines

people will at least kill each other more slowly, and with more opportunity to stop it before dozens of innocent people die. Ultimately, it means less mass carnage.

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Response to lastlib (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:38 AM

9. "industrial-strength killing machines" is a new term to me. ...

If you originated that I wish to congratulate you.

I rank it right up there with "assault weapons", "cop killer bullets" and "Saturday Night Specials."

While the side of the debate that favors strong gun control often fails to use proper firearm terminology it does shine at inventing scary terms. There is no doubt that this helps promote gun control.

I find it fascinating that many knowledgeable gun owners often call magazines "clips."

I feel in the end all the efforts to reinstate another Assault Weapons Ban will fail. Time will tell but if I am right it will not be due to a lack of creativity on the gun control side.



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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:23 PM

2. Stop devaluing life

Stop drone killings for a start. Prosecute war criminals including americans. Begin actively waging peace throughout the world.

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:31 PM

8. Yes, but be careful: All my Repub neighbors will say, "Start by

banning abortions." They see that as the primary de-valuer of life in our society.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:24 PM

3. Look around. See all the angry people. There are

a lot of them for a variety of reasons. Guns are a means to take their anger out. I'm not about to get into psychological reasons why these people want to wreak death and havoc on others. I just think that if the weapons of destruction weren't so readily available, massacres and death might not happen so often.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:32 PM

4. Series? Watch television or look at the movie listings.

This country has been at war since I was born.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:41 PM

5. IMHO, the problem isn't even violence; it is anger, helplessness, and hopelessness.

Violence, or rather the urge to commit violence, arises from feelings of jealousy, low self esteem, inferiority, worthlessness, et cetera. Violence is simply the end result, a lashing out either rationally or irrationally against the perceived oppressors of a person, be it in their career, their personal lives or their emotional lives. Similar to an animal caught in a trap, a human being who feels that they have nothing to lose (or everything to gain) will commit acts of desperation in an attempt to improve their situation or to drag others down to their own level.


Notice that the countries with the lowest violent crime rates have a higher standard of living or sense of self-worth or other satisfactions. Essentially, the happier a country is, the lower its crime rate. Also worth noting is that those countries where the standard of living is higher tend to have lax laws (in general, not firearm).

The problem is that in order to combat "Violence" as an abstract thought, we need to remove the motivation to commit violence; social equity, financial stability, positive racial integration and universal medical care will severely hamper most violent impulses. Those preliminary steps are how I believe "Violence" should be, and can be, combated effectively. However, because that's a significant task of immense proportions, most people would rather settle with "Ban guns" as a solution; hence, my opposition to gun control and dedication towards enhancement of standard of living instead.

"Everyone should be able to have a gun. No one should feel the need to use it."

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Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:03 PM

7. idyllic

ferris: However, because that's a significant task of immense proportions, most people would rather settle with "Ban guns" as a solution; hence, my opposition to gun control and dedication towards enhancement of standard of living instead.

Accd'g to recent polls about 75% of americans do NOT want to ban handguns, moreso would not want to ban rifles & shotguns, this really makes your premise misleading & invalid, since 'most' people do 'not' want to ban all guns.
Guns is a many faceted word, it can mean artilliery, battleship guns, fighter guns, as well as small arms & assault weapons.
Most americans want to ban what are called 'assault rifles', which comprise only a few percent of national gunstock, leaving approx 95% or more of american guns legal (about 280 million guns would remain legal if an assault rifle ban were passed, for joy).
Ergo, 'ban guns' is really misleading when 280 million would remain legal, still almost half the gunstock in the world. If you were to say 'a partial ban on assault rifles' or 'ban a few percent' then your argument would actually fit in the 'sequitur' range.

"Everyone should be able to have a gun. No one should feel the need to use it."

Does anyone else see the serious flaws in this idyllic reasoning?

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 02:09 AM

11. What you mislabel as "assault rifles" are common semi-auto rifles with certain cosmetic features ...

that resemble true fully automatic or burst fire weapons used by most military forces across the world. Such firearms are available for civilian ownership in our nation but are tightly regulated and extremely expensive. You can't buy one at WalMart or most Mom and Pop gun stores.

Assault rifle

An assault rifle is a selective fire (selective between automatic, semi-automatic, and burst fire) rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. It should be distinguished from the US legal term assault weapons. Assault rifles are the standard service rifles in most modern armies. Assault rifles are categorized in terms of using an intermediate cartridge power that is between light machine guns firing full power cartridges, which are intended more for sustained automatic fire in a light support role, and submachine guns, which fire a lower powered pistol cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge. Fully automatic fire refers to an ability for a rifle to fire continuously until the magazine is empty and no rounds remain; "burst-capable" fire refers to an ability of a rifle to fire a small yet fixed multiple number of rounds with but one press of the trigger; in contrast, semi-automatic refers to an ability to fire but one round per press of a trigger. The presence of selective fire modes on assault rifles permits more efficient use of rounds to be fired for specific needs, versus having but a single mode of operation, such as fully automatic, thereby conserving ammunition while maximizing on-target accuracy and effectiveness.

***snip***

Assault rifles vs. Assault weapons

In the United States "assault weapons" are usually defined in legislation as semi-automatic firearms that have certain features generally associated with military firearms, including assault rifles. Some definitions in "assault weapon" legislation under consideration (in 2013) are much broader to the point of including the majority of firearms, e.g. to include all semi-automatic firearms or all firearms with detachable magazines. The 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired on September 13, 2004, codified the definition of an assault weapon. It defined the rifle type of assault weapon as a semiautomatic firearm with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and two or more of the following:
a folding or telescoping stock
a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon
a bayonet mount
a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor
a grenade launcher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle


Terminology aside, assault style rifles are the lowest hanging fruit for gun control groups to pick as a target to ban. It is obvious that all types of firearms can not be banned at this time in our nation but the leadership of the gun control with strong support from the main stream media feels that another Assault Weapons Ban has enough support to pass and would be a good first step.

Of course they dream of then banning all semi-auto firearms, followed by all "Saturday NIght Specials" and then all handguns.

In the end a few very privileged Americans might be able to own a shotgun that holds two shells or a single shot rifle for hunting.

Unfortunately for the strongest gun control advocates, gun owners are well aware of plans of the leadership of the gun control movement and call it the "camels nose under the tent" theory. Therefore the Assault Weapons Ban will likely fail in Congress.

In your post you comment:


"Everyone should be able to have a gun. No one should feel the need to use it."

Does anyone else see the serious flaws in this idyllic reasoning?


That comment leads me to suspect that you wish for much more than just a ban on assault style rifles but I could be wrong.


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Response to Decoy of Fenris (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 01:40 AM

10. Great post with a lot of valuable insight. (n/t)

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Response to spin (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 07:56 AM

13. Happiness, is a warm gun, mama

decoy: Notice that the countries with the lowest violent crime rates have a higher standard of living or sense of self-worth or other satisfactions. Essentially, the happier a country is, the lower its crime rate.

Doesnt' work so well vis a vis japan & US: Proportion of people who answered the survey question: "Taking all things together, would you say you are: very happy, quite happy, not very happy, or not at all happy?" by stating that they were "Very happy".
World Values Survey 2005 Japan Ranked 24th USA Ranked 8th. 70% more than Japan
.. total crime: japan 2,853,739 {adj pop ~6.3 mill} .. USA 11,877,218
- US has near twice as high violent crime rate as japan, it seems.
.. btw, venezuela & nigeria ranked #1 & 2 on the happiness scale, shocked the becheeses outta me. You too I'll bet. But the happiness poll is not specific enough. http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Japan/United-States

spin:What you mislabel as "assault rifles" are common semi-auto rifles with certain cosmetic features ... that resemble true fully automatic or burst fire weapons used by most military forces across the world.

I've never shot an AR (anal retentive) bloodmaster, but I'm familiar with the m16 which I target shot in the navy & it's 3 rd burst, same time I qualified as marksman with 45 pistol, I think it's harder to learn how to bowl ten pins well than shoot.

Wayne's World Alert, Wayne's World Alert - spin: .. the leadership of the gun control with strong support from the main stream media feels that another Assault Weapons Ban has enough support to pass and would be a good first step. Of course they dream of then banning all semi-auto firearms, followed by all "Saturday NIght Specials" and then all handguns. In the end a few very privileged Americans might be able to own a shotgun that holds two shells or a single shot rifle for hunting.
Unfortunately for the strongest gun control advocates, gun owners are well aware of plans of the leadership of the gun control movement and call it the "camels nose under the tent" theory.


You're keen on 'saturday night specials' then, eh? You like the lorcin? calif ring of fire?

spin: In your post you comment: (ferris) "Everyone should be able to have a gun. No one should feel the need to use it."
(jimmy) Does anyone else see the serious flaws in this idyllic reasoning?

.. That comment leads me to suspect that you wish for much more than just a ban on assault style rifles but I could be wrong.

You're suspicions are .... (correct, shush, i must whisper--- I do indeed, wish for something MORE than a ban on assault rifles; I don't think people with serious mental illness should be able to own a gun, nor ex violent felons, nor domestic abusers, nor adolescents, nor the very elderly unless they pass a competency test every few years.
Plse spin I implore you, this is for 'your eyes only', do not reveal this to anyone else, thanks.)


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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 09:32 PM

16. My reply ...

Happiness is largely based on a person's expectations. A person can be very happy but have very little. People who live in the U.S. or Japan live a complicated lifestyle that some have described as a "rat race." We have a lot of toys but often have little enjoyment in our lives. I have watched my grandson's on several birthdays. They got a lot of gifts but weren't as happy as I was the summer I got just a pogo stick for my birthday.

In our nation we watch endless of TV commercials that say we would find happiness if we bought a certain car, a large screen TV, a new tablet computer, cured our toenails fungus or elevated our mood by using prescription anti-depressant drugs. These commercials are designed to make us feel unsatisfied with what we have and they work.

I will agree that bowling is more difficult than shooting. Golf is possibly even harder but I have never tried it. I enjoy target shooting more than I do bowling although I do drink beer while bowling but not while I handle firearms. (I personally like the taste of beer far more than Pepsi or Coke but I dislike getting drunk.)

True Saturday Night Specials are an odd breed of firearms. Few of these cheap handguns function reliably but then I have seen a lot of Walther PPKs on the range that were jam-o-matics. I remember the time when the gun control movement was trying to ban Saturday Night Specials but they were not simply after the junk guns but instead all small handguns including the excellent Smith & Wesson Chief Specials and Colt Detective revolvers.

I support of ideas you propose. Firearms are not for everybody. I just believe that honest, responsible and sane people should be allowed to own a firearm if they wish, even it looks like a weapon used by military forces.

I do think both sides of the debate exaggerate the level of gun violence in our nation to gain support. FBI stats show that violent crime and murder at at lows last seen in the late 60s. That is no way means that I think we live in a peaceful society. We can do far better and there are excellent ways to make progress on this issue that do not involve banning any types of firearms.

Let me add that I hold no animosity against a person simply because sh/she does not agree with my views. I respect all legitimate opinions and appreciate it when my views are also respected but I am not disturbed when I am insulted.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 08:45 PM

6. a decline of civilization sputters & spurts as those individuals who find themselves unable to cope

Last edited Tue Feb 5, 2013, 10:05 PM - Edit history (1)

act out in any manner of ways with any type of means imaginable depending on their background and accessibility limited only by their imagination and experience

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 06:56 AM

12. Firearms are meant to bring enjoyment and safety to everyday life.

Any other use is misuse.

Some of my firearms are meant for pure family enjoyment, some for hunting, some for saving lives in a time of need. We need people to respect the 2A enough not to abuse it, more respect for life would be a great start.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 09:36 AM

14. We have a culture of violence.

I suggest reading Code of the Street: Decency, Violence, and Moral Life in the Inner City by Dr. Elijah Anderson. The author is, himself, a black person who has worked with innercity people for a lifetime. Although he talks mostly about black subculture he notes that other subcultures in the U.S. are equally quick to defend their honor with violence.

We also have a huge problem with drugs being illegal that fuels much of the violence. Legalize drugs and the severity of our violence will reduce greatly.

And let the people defend themselves, with lethal force if need be.

Reducing the violence will greatly help the inner cities recover.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Wed Feb 6, 2013, 10:02 AM

15. Another real problem is that we have people that think government is the right tool to control

 

activities they don't agree with.

Ironically they get all bent of shape when others try to turn the government against something they hold near and dear.


The world can't be made safe. It can't be made fair.


That is a fact.

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