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Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:11 PM

Can anyone explain...

...what is advanced or even changed significantly by an AW ban that is cosmetic?

42 replies, 2111 views

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Arrow 42 replies Author Time Post
Reply Can anyone explain... (Original post)
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 OP
immoderate Jan 2013 #1
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #8
SecularMotion Jan 2013 #2
gejohnston Jan 2013 #3
SecularMotion Jan 2013 #4
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #24
SecularMotion Jan 2013 #25
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #26
SecularMotion Jan 2013 #27
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #28
SecularMotion Jan 2013 #29
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #30
iiibbb Jan 2013 #31
SecularMotion Jan 2013 #33
iiibbb Jan 2013 #34
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #5
SecularMotion Jan 2013 #6
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #14
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #16
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #17
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #18
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #20
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #22
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #39
NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #40
iiibbb Jan 2013 #36
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #9
spin Jan 2013 #38
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #41
holdencaufield Jan 2013 #7
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #10
holdencaufield Jan 2013 #11
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #12
holdencaufield Jan 2013 #13
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #15
jimmy the one Jan 2013 #19
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #21
Starboard Tack Jan 2013 #23
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #32
Starboard Tack Jan 2013 #35
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #37
Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #42

Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:19 PM

1. It's emotional.

People feel they have done some good.

--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:25 PM

8. That's a bit of a waste. n/t

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:39 PM

2. Can you explain...

why gun nuts & the NRA are so rabidly opposed to legislation that won't change anything?

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:49 PM

3. change as in

having a positive effect on murder rates. Besides, theater distracts from real solutions.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:59 PM

4. I don't expect a decrease in murder rates from a ban on assault weapons.

I expect less opportunities for a disturbed individual to gain access to a weapon that can cause mass carnage.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:16 PM

24. In that case, you have fallen for the trap.

"Assault weapons" do not cause any more (or less) "carnage" than any other semi-auto carbine. The cosmetic features that define "assault weapons" have no effect on the "carnage".

Removing the cosmetic features does not change the opportunity rates.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:26 PM

25. You're wrong

The "cosmetic features" make it much easier for a shooter to spray a wide area with rapid fire.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:30 PM

26. You could not be more wrong if you tried!

Have you learned nothing in the years you have been here?


Of all the cosmetic features that define an "assault weapon", name one that "make it much easier for a shooter to spray a wide area with rapid fire".

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #26)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:38 PM

27. From wikipedia

Attributes previously defined in Federal assault weapon legislation and their purposes:

  • Detachable magazines allow for fast reloading
  • Collapsible stocks allow for adjustment to the length of pull, permitting one firearm to be immediately fitted for any shooter
  • Folding stocks allow for ease of transport by reducing the total length of the firearm when transported
  • Pistol grips (on rifles) reduce the angle (and thus rotational strain) of the wrist when shouldered.
  • Bayonet mounts are often on civilian firearms due to the same parts being used on both government and civilian rifles
  • Flash suppressors reduce night vision degradation to a shooter's vision, as well as those beside or behind the user. They do not render any reduction in detecting a shooter.
  • Threaded barrels mount flash suppressors, compensators and muzzle brakes both used for aiding recoil management.
  • Barrel mounted grenade launcher mounts are concentric rings around the muzzle that facilitate attachment of rifle grenades
  • A barrel shroud is a tube around the barrel designed to limit transfer of heat from the barrel to the supporting hand, or to protect a shooter from being burned by accidental contact.
  • Magazines greater than 10 rounds
  • Semi-automatic, functionality meaning that they can eject spent shell casings and chamber the next round without additional human action, but (as opposed to automatic firearms) only one round is fired per pull of the trigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon#Attributes_in_assault_weapon_definitions

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:44 PM

28. Nice list, but it does not support your claim.

Please point out the feature(s) that, as you claim, "make it much easier for a shooter to spray a wide area with rapid fire".

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:50 PM

29. If you can read that list and not understand

how "cosmetic features" make it easier for a shooter to handle a weapon during rapid fire, you're just being obtuse.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:57 PM

30. I see your confusion.

You think "handle a weapon during rapid fire" and "spray with rapid fire" are the same thing when they are not.
And most of the cosmetic features do not even make it "handle a weapon during rapid fire".

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:05 PM

31. Have you ever shot a gun, semi-auto, or assault weapon side-by-side?

 

/?

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Response to iiibbb (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:16 PM

33. Yes

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:40 PM

34. Then I don't know how you can agree with that list...

 

in its entirety

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:07 PM

5. I think it's because it's a pissing contest and because gun owners want real reforms...

They want the underlying problems to be addressed, not a bunch of worthless gestures.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:12 PM

6. I don't think restricting access to weapons that can cause mass carnage is a "worthless gesture"

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:42 PM

14. We haven't seen the legislation, but any parts that are about cosmetic details like pistol grips...

...and the like are not very meaningful, in the end.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:49 PM

16. "...not very meaningful..."

You have a gift for understatement. Not only are pistol grips and bayonet lugs "not very meaningful" they are a counter productive distraction.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:56 PM

17. Well, you know, there are people who maintain a dossier on me and my posts...

...with screen captures and EVERYTHING!!!



Even extreme understatement is risky!

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:07 PM

18. I can almost...

...hear one of those black helicopters now.


That reminds me, I'm running low on tinfoil!

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:17 PM

20. More like Black Big Wheels!

Or scooters....




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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:22 PM

22. Careful...

...the spiders will get you.


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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:10 AM

39. Paranoid! Thinkin' they'll pop you with the jury system. Tsk-tsk.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #39)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:14 AM

40. Pffffft.

My profile is transparent.

They can do their worst and ill still be here.

Their bullshit makes me stronger.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:45 PM

36. It is if the ban a gun only to have a mechanically identical one remain legal

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:29 PM

9. It won't change anything...

...for the perps and victims. About 30% of the population has their freedom limited just so some folks can "feel" good?

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 09:11 PM

38. I will explain why I am and it might surprise you. ...

There is little chance of another assault weapons ban passing at this time and if it does it will be watered down significantly. Most political experts agree with me on this. The House of Representatives is controlled by Republicans and the Senate has a number of Democrats from Red states so passage of such a law will be a major challenge in either house of Congress.

Unfortunately the talk of another ban is causing firearms of all types to fly off the shelves of gun stores across our nation. Many buyers fear that this might be the last chance to buy a firearm which of course is false. Others are buying them in hope of selling them for a significant profit in the future. A high percentage fear rising prices in the next few year. A few extremists fear a tyrannical government and are buying firearms to store underground in arms caches.

A high percentage of the buyers have no real current need for the firearms they are buying. Some have little or no experience with firearms and firearm safety and will not spend the money and take the time to go through a firearm safety course. Many of these firearms will not be stored securely and may end up stolen or misused by family members to cause tragedies.

Also I fear the fact that the new Assault Weapons Ban is supported by Democrats will lead a high percentage of gun owners to show up at the polls in the midterm elections and they will vote for pro-gun Republicans even if the Democratic candidate has a high rating from the NRA. This will impact elections at the local, state and national level.

I firmly believe we can make headway in reducing gun violence and mass murders by passing legislation that does not ban any firearms but will address underlying problems and weaknesses in our current gun laws. It will be far easier to pass such legislation if we do not insist on an Assault Weapons Ban.

Of course any changes that occur will be a compromise between the two groups. When you barter it is wise to start from a strong position. Perhaps in order to get passage of a law requiring a background check for the sale of any firearm, the Assault Weapons ban may prove to be an effective bargaining chip. Still our object should be to reduce the number of firearms rather than to promote the sale of these weapons which is exactly what we are doing now.











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Response to spin (Reply #38)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:14 AM

41. ^^^PLEASE take note.^^^

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:15 PM

7. Was that not rhetorical?

 



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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:30 PM

10. Only rhetorical if...

...you're pro-freedom.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:33 PM

11. Freedom is a great thing ...

 

... unless, of course, we're talking about freedom to do something I don't like or the freedom to live in a way of which I don't approve, or the freedom to do anything I think might be unhealthy.

(Do I REALLY need to indicate sarcasm here?)

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:34 PM

12. "Do I REALLY need to indicate sarcasm here?"

Only if your name is Bloomberg.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:37 PM

13. I worked for that guy for years

 

in NYC in his pre-politics days. What a piece of work. My NDA doesn't allow me to tell specific stories, but "wow".

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:47 PM

15. It's like a shopping list:

Stop; assume the position...
Stop; no ARs for you...
Stop; no Big Gulps, neither...

Someone needs to disconnect this guy from the mother ship.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:15 PM

19. stop with the laughable excuses already

nyc skip wrote: I think it's because it's a pissing contest and because gun owners want real reforms...
They want the underlying problems to be addressed, not a bunch of worthless gestures.


Ohhhh, so THAT's why the nra is opposing universal background checks & closing the gunshow loophole.
What could be a more worthless gesture than uni bg checks? eh? even tho wayno wanted bg checks 100% done in 1999.

Gun owners want real reforms?--- translation: skip & nra want to deflect the onus off of guns & shift the concern onto anything else, so they can keep their death toys & not be held responsible when they or someone amongst them goes astray.

Explain the rationale why universal background checks should not be installed.

.. Wayno's weeping about how awful it is for an aged grandpa to have to undergo the stress, torture & humiliation of having his whole life exposed to the inquisition of BATF background checkers ready to confiscate his guns if he fails. All because grandpa wants to give his precious heirloom rifle to his grandson for his birthday as a special commemoration, sniff (excuse me, I need a handkerchief, be back in a moment)........

And another 'worthless gesture' - banning high capacity ammo mags/clips? Because they could be got elsewhere? vaccines sometimes aren't 100% effective, the current 2013 flu vaccine is only about 50% effective, but it has utility since it prevents half what otherwise would happen.
It's the same with the proposed vaccines for GUNDISEASE.

Stop with the specious, trumped up, even laughable excuses already.




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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:19 PM

21. Well...

...I like universal BGCs and I don't remember NYC_SKP mentioning the NRA.

re: "Stop with the specious, trumped up, even laughable excuses already."
Same to you.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:13 PM

23. That's quite an interesting question.

At first glance, I would say "Nothing!"
Then, I start thinking about toy guns, replicas, gift-wrapped packages that tick, big guys with tattoos and a host of other things that scare people. It's all about perception, which is built upon a combination of awareness and ignorance.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #23)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:06 PM

32. regarding...

"It's all about perception, which is built upon a combination of awareness and ignorance."

That's an interesting position. Wouldn't a better solution be education rather than a ban?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:39 PM

35. Education should lead to awareness.

Unless one is educated in Texas, of course.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 08:50 PM

37. Sometimes...

...

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:20 AM

42. Got edumacated in Florida a'for I went to Texass

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