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Wed May 9, 2012, 02:40 PM

Why isn't it the same?

I just heard a caller on Talk of the Nation state something which I have heard many times.

African Americans vote against gay marriage because of religious reason. AND, are offended because the LGBT community equate our equal rights fight to the equal rights they fought for.

Why is fighting for one civil right differ from fighting for another?

How is this any different than the Loving v. Virginia ruling? Wasn't interracial marriage once condemned for religious reason?

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Arrow 10 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why isn't it the same? (Original post)
SoutherDem May 2012 OP
JustAnotherGen May 2012 #1
SoutherDem May 2012 #5
JoePhilly May 2012 #2
JustAnotherGen May 2012 #4
JoePhilly May 2012 #7
SoutherDem May 2012 #10
SoutherDem May 2012 #6
JoePhilly May 2012 #9
onpatrol98 May 2012 #3
SoutherDem May 2012 #8

Response to SoutherDem (Original post)

Wed May 9, 2012, 02:52 PM

1. I don't know about Religious reasons

My parents (father black/mother white) were married in 1969. My father was then stationed at Fort Knox (KY) when my mom was pregnant with my brother.

Those were tough times. Religious reasons or not - it took toughness and tenacity to live in that den of vipers in Kentucky. It takes toughness and tenacity to be mixed race in America today - and/or be married across color lines (Married April 15 - husband is immigrant from Italy ).

My only caution - Gay Marriage will be a reality in this lifetime. It will be. But I hope and pray the glbt community is really aware -

Your marriage will not change the dark ugly soul of this country. We can no more help being bigots at heart than a lion can help hunting prey. I.E. It will only make it legal.

A better comparison is to slavery - than it is to gay marriage. There is still a LARGE chunk of folks in this country that have a dismissal in their hearts towards black people. Oh - they smile at us and are pleasant but they truly think we are 'sub human'. It's been what? 146 years?

Just be prepared that there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It's the beginning - not an end in and of itself.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #1)

Wed May 9, 2012, 03:43 PM

5. Here in the south it was religious

I don't know where but in the old testament there is something about mixing the races. I have heard the argument made multiple times.

Things are getting better be we have a long way to go, one of my best friends is in an interracial marriage and have a beautiful baby girl. He and I have compared walking hand and hand with the person we love (someone of a different race for him, same gender for me) in public and we both confessed to in some areas letting go of our wife/partner's hand. He has also told me although no one has ever said anything against his daughter, that some of the "compliments" have racist overtones.

Congratulations on your marriage I hope you have a long happy life together. On your husband being from Italy. Here in the south, that also has caused issues. My uncle married a lady from Italy back in the early 60's. There were some who felt that was wrong also, not to mention she was Catholic.

Sadly, we here in the south have a lot of skeletons in our closet. Bigotry of race, nationality, religion and sexual orientation just to name a few.

I know making it legal won't make it accepted.

I was just confused why a people who have fought for equal rights, can vote against another't equal rights. I will give you one difference between gay rights vs. African American rights. If I walk into an area where I know people are not gay-friendly I can attempt to hide any evidence that I am gay. That option is not for African Americans.

More over I understand they may feel it is wrong based on religious beliefs, but how can my marrying a man hurt, or affect their religion in any way. Borrowing a saying from the abortion issue. If you don't like gay marriage don't marry someone of the same sex.

Once again congratulations one your marriage!

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Response to SoutherDem (Original post)

Wed May 9, 2012, 03:07 PM

2. I think its more complicated than that.

And now that I said its more complicated, I'm going to try to describe what I think is happening, in what will still be an overly simplistic way. I'll apologize in advance for that.

Its not just religious. Its also economic.

The African American (AA) community is not monolithic. But there are a few factors at play here. One is that parts of the AA community have struggled economically because of young AA men, getting young AA women pregnant, and then moving on. This is a recipe for poverty. Generally, the children in these situations will grow up poor, receive substandard educations, and struggle in life.

The AA church has recognized the economic impact of this, and so many of them tend to prioritize "maintaining the family unit". Which means a man, married to a woman, and their kids ... the family unit. So that part is really economic.

But ... the churches use religion as LEVERAGE to make this "family unit" stuff stick. Man and woman. Man and woman. Man and woman.

So in a sense, the religious part is not the "reason" ... the economic aspect is the "reason" ... the religious part is "leverage".

The part about "who's civil rights matter more" is part of the GOP effort to divide the two communities. Divide and conquer.

Again ... this is very complicated, and I hope that my overly simplistic description helps promote discussion, not inflame it.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #2)

Wed May 9, 2012, 03:12 PM

4. And don't forget

Slavery by any other name - which in an of itself forced everything from the 'angry independent black woman' to the idea concept that black men by birth and nature 'take to crime':

The African American (AA) community is not monolithic. But there are a few factors at play here. One is that parts of the AA community have struggled economically because of young AA men, getting young AA women pregnant, and then moving on
.

We have the perception that young black men do not step up to the plate, the reality that many cannot as America is NOT equal in terms of opportunity at birth - and then the 'psyche' of black America - the ripping apart of families, fathers sold down the river, mothers raped, etc. etc. etc.

To the OP - I think the key thing JoePhilly pointed out is that the 'black community' doesn't need to be thrown under the bus by and large.

For me - I'm part of the No Wedding No Womb movement . . . now ask me how I feel about marriage in general - I think if a gay couple wants to have a child together (be via surrogacy, adoption, etc. etc.) then they most certainly SHOULD get married in order to protect their children legally and financially. A different take on the situation - but you'll see where the woma who started this concept amongst black women (google her website) would most likely agree. Marriage for gays if for no other reason than to protect their CHILDREN financially/legally and to ensure they grow up in a two parent home.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #4)

Wed May 9, 2012, 03:59 PM

7. Agree completely ...

I think the black churches (which tend to exist as "black churches" because backs were unwelcome in "white churches") ... are trying to repair the kind of damage that the "black family" had experienced over the last 150+ years.

I'm white, and my next door neighbors are an African American family. They are a very religious family. He and I don't really talk about religion, or politics, but we do talk about "family".

Its obvious that a key focus of his is to mentor the young black males in his family and in his church.

And while I have not pressed him on this ... I get the sense that he's not going to focus much on getting gay AA men to marry other gay AA men, until he feels that straight AA men who should be married to the women with whom they father children, are also married.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #4)

Wed May 9, 2012, 06:06 PM

10. Wasn't meaning to through the whole group under the bus

I should have included some to express I know not every AA feels this way.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #2)

Wed May 9, 2012, 03:51 PM

6. Have never thought of that.

I understand what you mean, and would never disagree.

I will also confess I am an Atheist, if you read my signature you may have guessed that, so for me religion dose not play a part in my life, except for when people use it to control my life.

Thanks for the reply, you have made me think.

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Response to SoutherDem (Reply #6)

Wed May 9, 2012, 04:05 PM

9. Cool ... I'm in the agnostic leaning atheist group as well.

I tend to think that religion is often less about "God" and more about social control.

Through out human history, various individuals and groups have tried to control those around them.

And there is no more powerful leverage as when I tell you that GOD supports my position, and that YOU go to hell if you disobey ME.

Religion is used as leverage. Sometimes that leverage is used for good (donate to help the poor), sometimes that leverage is used for evil (slavery is fine).



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Response to SoutherDem (Original post)

Wed May 9, 2012, 03:10 PM

3. Loving v. Virginia is similar...

There are other similarities. But, there are differences to me, as a black woman. I assume these are differences a person who has to ask the question either wouldn't understand or wouldn't give a damn about the response anyway. So, an explanation would be pointless.

I especially sympathize with gay and lesbian folk of color. It would be tough to stomach people who "didn't" see any difference for very long. Especially when your rights are being denied in so many ways. Because of your heritage and because of who you love. Peace to those of you who feel you are in this struggle alone my sisters and brothers. I'm sorry.



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Response to onpatrol98 (Reply #3)

Wed May 9, 2012, 04:04 PM

8. Pointless???

I don't buy the argument "if you have to ask you wouldn't understand". There are things about your life I will never understand first hand, but that doesn't mean I don't have the intelligence to understand. AND certainly doesn't mean I don't give a damn.

If we all take the opinion other can't understand or don't give a damn, because you have to experience before you know we will never put bigotry behind us.

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