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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Gender & Orientation » LGBT Civil Rights and Activism (Group) » Do You Feel Gay Men Do No...

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:15 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

Do You Feel Gay Men Do Not Understand the Issues Facing Lesbians that May Be Different for Women?

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:17 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

Here's a question

Do You Feel Gay Men Do Not Understand the Issues Facing Lesbians that May Be Different for Women?

42 replies, 1866 views

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Arrow 42 replies Author Time Post
Reply Do You Feel Gay Men Do Not Understand the Issues Facing Lesbians that May Be Different for Women? (Original post)
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 OP
LineReply This message was hidden by jury decision.
 Kate Gold Nov 2012 #1
LineLineReply No
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #2
LineReply Huh?
 GitRDun Nov 2012 #3
LineLineReply Lesbians Make Less Than Gay Men
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #4
LineLineLineReply I don't think being gay
 GitRDun Nov 2012 #12
LineReply I think you need to refocus on what can be agreed upon and maybe state what feels misunderstood.
 Tigress DEM Nov 2012 #5
LineLineReply Starting Discussion- Not Finger Pointing
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #7
LineLineLineReply THESE aren't differences between gays and lesbians, but you list them that way.
 Tigress DEM Nov 2012 #16
LineLineLineLineReply No Competition
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #17
LineReply in Hawaii there are some big differences in gay males/lesbian culture -
 msongs Nov 2012 #6
LineLineReply I Think That is True
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #8
LineReply maybe. maybe not... but as a gay man with ...
 JustFiveMoreMinutes Nov 2012 #9
LineLineReply Sounds Wonderful
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #10
LineReply Um. Lesbians are women
 Vanje Nov 2012 #11
LineLineReply Welcome
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #13
LineReply Question and answers
 Anthony McCarthy Nov 2012 #14
LineLineReply So Empathy and Understanding
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #15
LineLineLineReply What in the world does that mean in the context of what I said?
 Anthony McCarthy Nov 2012 #31
LineReply For The Record I Do Not Agree with the Jury's decision in Post 1
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #18
LineLineReply I'm cool with almost everything
 libodem Nov 2012 #19
LineLineLineReply yea
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #20
LineLineLineLineReply kinda
 libodem Nov 2012 #21
LineLineLineLineLineReply Not Familiar with that book
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #24
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply Very dry
 libodem Nov 2012 #26
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply WOW
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #27
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply literature
 libodem Nov 2012 #29
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Very, very true
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #33
LineLineReply C'mon, don't defend a PPR'd troll now.
 Call Me Wesley Nov 2012 #32
LineLineLineNew Reply Call Me Wesley
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #35
LineReply Nobody taps in the bathroom stalls
 libodem Nov 2012 #22
LineLineReply LOL
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #23
LineLineLineReply Thank you for laughing
 libodem Nov 2012 #25
LineReply No
 HockeyMom Nov 2012 #28
LineLineNew Reply Of Course
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #36
LineReply What an interesting topic...
 VPStoltz Nov 2012 #30
LineLineNew Reply Thanks!
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #34
LineNew Reply As the queer son of a Lesbian,
 Scruffy Rumbler Nov 2012 #37
LineLineNew Reply Sure That's True
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #38
LineLineLineNew Reply That's true...
 Scruffy Rumbler Nov 2012 #39
LineLineLineLineNew Reply Sounds Like a Good Mom
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #40
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply I am fortunate that I was able to express to her how I felt about her many years ago,
 Scruffy Rumbler Nov 2012 #41
LineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply WOW
 fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #42

Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Kate Gold This message was hidden by Jury decision.

Response to Kate Gold (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:26 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

2. No

If you watched the HBO Documentary 'VITO' about Vito Russo, there is a segment about issues that unite gay women with straight women based on social-economic issues some 40 years ago like income equality that some said early in our history divide gay women and men. There are others who point out the enormous support lesbians gave gay men 30 years ago during the start of the AIDS epidemic. Do we have more in common than our differences?

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:27 PM

Star Member GitRDun (472 posts)

3. Huh?

Forgive me if I am simple, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

I am straight.

I want all people to have the same rights as me.

What else is there?

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:29 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

4. Lesbians Make Less Than Gay Men

In fact women as a group do.

Do you think income equality is as important to gay men as Lesbians?

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:50 PM

Star Member GitRDun (472 posts)

12. I don't think being gay

plays any roll in whether or not someone thinks income inequality is an important issue.

I think a sense of empathy for others we don't know is the biggest factor in determining how people feel about income inequality for women, civil rights, etc.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:37 PM

Star Member Tigress DEM (7,167 posts)

5. I think you need to refocus on what can be agreed upon and maybe state what feels misunderstood.

I have lesbian and gay friends and both sides are pretty intelligent. They see people being hurt or mistreated and they respond with compassion and usually are helpful if action is needed to resolve problems.

Anyone who isn't gay or lived the discrimination of being a woman in this world can have problems "really" getting it. Any ONE of us can be empathetic to a point and still not KNOW the full experience because it isn't possible to BE another person.

STILL, it's kind of divisive to say, "They" (whoever they are) "Don't understand how my life is so much worse, different etc.."

Once this type of finger pointing and dividing people up into different groups goes, gee, you have discrimination and I don't think that's where you want to go with this.



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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:45 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

7. Starting Discussion- Not Finger Pointing

You write: 'Any ONE of us can be empathetic to a point and still not KNOW the full experience because it isn't possible to BE another person.'

Agree completely. I'ved heard one or two black male straight friends demonstrate resentment when I compare gay civil rights to the civil rights movement arguing I don't know what it's like to be black......all true.

But I do know what it is like to be denied a job, face violence, have laws used to deny my dignity, be verbally abused, etc.

Is there a difference between the struggles of gay men and women?

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:41 PM

Star Member Tigress DEM (7,167 posts)

16. THESE aren't differences between gays and lesbians, but you list them that way.



But I do know what it is like to be denied a job, face violence, have laws used to deny my dignity, be verbally abused, etc.

Is there a difference between the struggles of gay men and women?



Yes, women can be denied a job simply because she's a woman.
AND a gay man can be denied a job simply because he's gay.

Women face violence in the form or rape and domestic violence at a higher ratio than men, that's true.
BUT gay men are hunted down and beaten by ignorant people and may tolerate abuse from a "spouse" in the same way women do.

Having laws used to deny your dignity? Where is there a difference? IF ANYONE is oppressed WE ARE ALL oppressed.

Women do NOT hold any corner on the market for being verbally abused ESPECIALLY when you are comparing them to gays who by being identified as closer to women than men in many cases get a DOUBLE dose of abuse.


I'm not saying that Lesbians don't get hurt differently.

I'm saying that it ISN'T a competition.




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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:48 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

17. No Competition

But you are naive if you think each community fully understands and has empathy for the other. The self segregation is pretty pronounced at most bars or fund raisers I go to and I think that benefits no one.

I wrote 'Having laws used to deny your dignity? Where is there a difference? IF ANYONE is oppressed WE ARE ALL oppressed.'

Agree completely.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:42 PM

Star Member msongs (30,811 posts)

6. in Hawaii there are some big differences in gay males/lesbian culture -

for example, although there are likely as many lesbians as gay men here, gay men have 3 well attended bars/clubs in Honolulu (waikiki), while there is no bar/club that one might call predominantly lesbian most of the time that I have been able to find. The lesbian culture is pretty much underground and off the radar in that sense.

Don't know why that is however.

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Response to msongs (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:46 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

8. I Think That is True

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:48 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

Wonder Why.....maybe the economics of bar ownership opportunities gay men have...that gay women do not need or want or are not there....just talking it out.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:48 PM

JustFiveMoreMinutes (1,523 posts)

9. maybe. maybe not... but as a gay man with ...

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:49 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

An adult daughter and granddaughter... I became a strong femnist the moment I held my little one. The world is hers ..... And I will stand up for her for any battle.

I don't see why I would do less for any lesbian

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Response to JustFiveMoreMinutes (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:49 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

10. Sounds Wonderful

How could you not be a feminist!!!!

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:50 PM

Star Member Vanje (8,979 posts)

11. Um. Lesbians are women

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Response to Vanje (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:51 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

13. Welcome

True.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:57 PM

Anthony McCarthy (507 posts)

14. Question and answers

 

Do You Feel Gay Men Do Not Understand the Issues Facing Lesbians that May Be Different for Women?

Some gay men do not understand the issues facing lesbians because lesbians are women. Some do.

Some women do not understand the issues they might share with women who are lesbian. Some do.

I'd guess there are some lesbians who do not understand the issues they share with women who aren't lesbians. Some do.

I'd guess you can come up with a similar range of answers for any question that presupposes that members of a group are uniform in their understanding of members of other groups. The motives for presupposing that may not be uniform but many of those motives are less than helpful.

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Response to Anthony McCarthy (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:02 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

15. So Empathy and Understanding

....don't figure in the discussion because not everyone .....shows emphathy or understanding?

I certainly didn't mean to presuppose anything but I think you make my point for discussion.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:53 PM

Anthony McCarthy (507 posts)

31. What in the world does that mean in the context of what I said?

 

A question that asks something, generally, about gay men not understanding the situation of Lesbians, sharing problems common to women, rather begs the question. You assume that is a general attribute of gay men when it's only an attribute of some gay men, not all gay men.

I'd never assume that kind of generalization about Lesbians or any other group, Republicans after Bush II a near exception to that rule.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 02:10 AM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

18. For The Record I Do Not Agree with the Jury's decision in Post 1


Maybe I have a different take on speech and words. I think the solution to bad speech is more speech .....not less. If the response is 'so what'...tell them why.....educate the ignorant. I always attempt to be fair and objective when being on a jury....but i give people the benefit of the doubt. We will never be able to talk about racism, sexism or homophobia without even ignorant people being able to talk through their own insecurities. The language of oppression has often been turned against our oppressors......so some of us now neuter words like QUEER or HOMO.

PS- making this post got me banned on another forum!

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:34 PM

Star Member libodem (12,138 posts)

19. I'm cool with almost everything

And I've cried when I got hidden but that was pretty sexuality descriptive. She said carpet.

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Response to libodem (Reply #19)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:37 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

20. yea

It was wrong and offensive and the poster denigrated themselves.

I just think hiding it just attracks more attention to it.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #20)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:16 PM

Star Member libodem (12,138 posts)

21. kinda

Oh well. I found my copy of the Boys of Boise. Old histories from 1955. The year I was born. I really wanted someone to talk with about being hunted and entrapped, when I tried to talk about what I saw as symbolism in the friends of Dorothy comment to start a discussion.
I the article was interesting that that crap was still happening in the 70's. That is so recent to me.

The hunters tried to find a real Dorothy. They were that small minded and ignorant. How could that have been allowed to go on in what I still consider this day and age?

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Response to libodem (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:23 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

24. Not Familiar with that book

...but will try to find!

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #24)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:28 PM

Star Member libodem (12,138 posts)

26. Very dry

Lots of court proceedings. But a real expose' of the madness gone wrong with a big political entrapment scandal. You might find internet references.

John Gerassi wrote it. Mine's from 1966.

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Response to libodem (Reply #26)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:34 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

27. WOW

Probably worth something to someone today.

My collection of gay literature didn't start until the 70s, but one of my favorite books of the 50s is James Baldwin's Giovanni's Room. There is one page somewhere between 60-70 pages in that I remember tagging that has left an impression on me decades later. I think that's pretty amazing for literature.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #27)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:09 PM

Star Member libodem (12,138 posts)

29. literature

Is so important in linking to the past so it is not forgotten.
The book presents a very strong case against what were the laws against homosexuality, back in the day.

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Response to libodem (Reply #29)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 12:51 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

33. Very, very true

Any favorite books?

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 05:57 PM

Star Member Call Me Wesley (37,901 posts)

32. C'mon, don't defend a PPR'd troll now.

But thanks for informing us that this post got you banned in another forum group. I didn't know ... Nah, wait. I think I do. Your sign was just too big to read.

Please, and that's not much to ask since your a fellow host now, to refer to the forum you host as a 'group,' which it is, and get the name of the forum group right?

but i give people the benefit of the doubt. We will never be able to talk about racism, sexism or homophobia without even ignorant people being able to talk through their own insecurities.


Cool, can I call you ignorant insecurities then here?

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Response to Call Me Wesley (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:29 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

35. Call Me Wesley

You can call me anything you want subject to TOS.

Can I do the same in the group you host once you unblock me?

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:20 PM

Star Member libodem (12,138 posts)

22. Nobody taps in the bathroom stalls

Any more. It really was Larry's wide stance.

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Response to libodem (Reply #22)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:22 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

23. LOL

.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:23 PM

Star Member libodem (12,138 posts)

25. Thank you for laughing

What a joy.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:55 PM

HockeyMom (10,819 posts)

28. No

Because my daughter is a Lesbian and the gay men she knows support ALL women because they know that ALL women have and ARE being discriminated against, as THEY ARE. I can say that my best friend as a young woman was a GAY MAN, and he ALWAYS supported equal rights for me, and for ALL women.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:54 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

36. Of Course

As a gay man, I completely support women's and lesbian rights.

I raise the issue because I've had some interesting conversations with gays women who argue their primary focus is pay equality, which differs from most gay men, as they would argue.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:26 PM

VPStoltz (1,236 posts)

30. What an interesting topic...

I think gay men understand the issues because lesbian issue are women issues.
Women are paid less and "strong" women are paid even less because they are discriminated against.
Why do you think PrezO had to sign Ledbetter?
Of course this is a generalization, but I think society see strong women as bitches and lesbian are perceived to be STRONG.
Even if your not a "butch" lesbian - you're a woman and immediately second tier.
Gay men, whether butch or fem over all have an easier time with employment.
Again, I OVER-GENERALIZE to make a point - from personal experience.

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Response to VPStoltz (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:05 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

34. Thanks!

I agree. I think the primary driver of both lesbian and women's issues are economic. My perception, however, is that strong perceived women often have the benefit and possibility of risking and losing more than strong men and/or indifferent women. At the same time, I think much depends on the profession regardless of the gender. For gay men, it can be the opposite of being 'strong'. Society can or at least used to consider us weak. I suspect that is changing. Certainly both gay men and lesbians can face discrimination.

Any discussion around these issues is sure to be fraught with the possibility of over generalization, but that's no reason to ignore. So I agree and try to be respectful of others whose experience is different.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 06:51 PM

Scruffy Rumbler (380 posts)

37. As the queer son of a Lesbian,

I would say I can understand some issues Lesbians face. The ones we have in common when dealing with our commonality of being attracted to the same gender and the bigotry that comes from that from family and society.

As a man, there are issues Lesbians face that are a result of being female that, while I may sympathize with and intellectually realize their issue, I will never have the internalized understanding that another woman may have.

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Response to Scruffy Rumbler (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:25 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

38. Sure That's True

At least not 100%.

But then again, I doubt that despite having a parent who is a lesbian, she doesn't know entirely the issues gay men have.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 08:00 PM

Scruffy Rumbler (380 posts)

39. That's true...

and fortuane for me, she was always available to discuss some of lifes tough issues with me!

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Response to Scruffy Rumbler (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 08:08 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

40. Sounds Like a Good Mom

Call her and tell her!

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #40)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 06:22 PM

Scruffy Rumbler (380 posts)

41. I am fortunate that I was able to express to her how I felt about her many years ago,

because now she has Alzheimer's. Next Monday marks the end of the second year since my partner and I moved back to provide her a home. She and I still have a good relationship. She told me two years ago during a moment of clarity that no matter what else she has forgotten, she would always remember me...Most days she can't remember my name, but does remember I am one of her "babies". And when she does finally lose that part of her memory, well I'll just remember for the both of us!

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Response to Scruffy Rumbler (Reply #41)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 07:37 PM

fightthegoodfightnow (7,042 posts)

42. WOW

My partner and I are dealing with his father's Alzheimer's. Not fun.

You'll have to do that. It's a terrible disease. Terrible.

My thoughts are with your family.

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