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Thu Sep 13, 2012, 09:56 PM

sonic egg barking preventer?- update

Last edited Tue Oct 2, 2012, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.sunbeampets.com/product.aspx?pid=12172

any opinions of this device? i picked it up at petsmart today because my 2 terriers are just so f'ing annoying when anyone comes near, and go berserk when a dog goes by. this is really feeding into the bully's dog aggression.
i have worked with them a lot in the last 2 summers. they have gotten a whole lot better, but they still are quite a problem.
i have to say that it works. they shut right up. they do not like it. there is an automatic one, which i have more doubts about. i think they should be rewarded right away for not barking. but i think that it can really solve an incredibly annoying problem.
it would be great for these dogs to be really good dogs, because they are very sweet kids.

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Response to mopinko (Original post)

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 11:00 PM

1. Issue for me is if they are annoying others while you are not there

One of my daughters had a problem with a retired neighbor with multiple SYDs (small yappy dogs). She could not go into her backyard without a major chorus erupting. Neighbor refused to do anything ("dogs should be able to bark if they want to"). Daughter and son-in-law got one of the automatic units, but it lacked directionality and range. Some post purchase modifications addressed those deficiencies. Took about a week before they stopped. Mounted it in a birdhouse located near the fence and turned it on only while they were in their yard. After about a week, the dogs no longer barked and peace has been restored. Meanwhile the neighbor expressed concern that birds would be pooping on her lawn furniture...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 07:01 PM

7. Doesn't that just beat all!

The inconsiderate neighbor is upset about something that hasn't even happened yet, while at the same time ignoring your daughter's concerns. Would I be wrong to suggest that this is probably a Republican? The nerve of some people amazes me.

I had a neighbor with a barking dog and got a different brand that did not work because I was too far away.....I would love to know how those modifications were done.

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Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 01:36 AM

2. I bought

one too after complaints of a neighbor. Yes it works and my dog hates it. If he barks and it goes off he starts shaking and trembling and will run and huddle down in a corner in another room. I can barely get him to come out. I hung it up on the coat rack by the front door. When he is around it now , even though I have taken the battery out, I see him kind of hunch down and look up at it with his eyes. I haven't had the battery in it now for several weeks. All I have to do now is either point to the egg or if he starts barking when someone is at the door and I want him to stop I just say Egg and usually he will stop. He will sit and bark quietly between his teeth. lol.
I really hate the egg because it terrifies him, but just using it for a short time seems to have helped. But my problem now is do I turn it on when I'm gone? I don't want to create more behavior problems by using it, but I don't want to get kicked out of my apt either!

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Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 08:42 AM

3. I want one of these for the barking beast next door

He barks at absolutely NOTHING and just goes on and on and on and on. For the life of me I can't understand how his own owners can't bloody stand it. They NEVER do a damn thing to shush him either.

He's been barking his brains out outside now for an hour and a half now, and he's still going at it.

I gotta find out how this gizzmo works. I would LOVE to be able to do something to shut that dog up especially when the neighbors obviously don't give a rat's ass.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:39 AM

8. LMAO ROFL @ barking his brains out!!!

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Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:18 AM

4. It depends on the dog. Henry's original owners used a similar devise.

Twelve years later Henry get very upset and frightened whenever he hears an electronic beep from a cell phone, an alarm or anything like it. I always knew when I had a message on my cell phone because Henry would come running to me shaking. That is NOT normal Henry behavior!

According to behavioral science, the automatic egg is the only one that should really work. Positive reinforcement should be intermittent in order to reshape a behavior. However, this egg is classic negative reinforcement and needs to happen every time even one dog barks. You also have a problem with "punishing" the dog that may eventually not bark. What behavior would the egg be correcting?

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Response to Walk away (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 02:00 PM

5. yeah, i don't like the idea of the automatic.

right now i intend to use it the same way i use my voice. when they bark, i call them to me, and assure them that i am on top of it. if they don't come, i go to them, get between them and their problem, and make them down.
i just see it as an effective way to get their attention, then get it back to me, and put a positive spin on it. i do not like straight punishments, except where really necessary.
i can easily see the automatic one making these already nervous little nuts into basket cases.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 14, 2012, 02:44 PM

6. Yeah

that's why I just took the battery out and haven't been using it...but he still sees it hanging on the coat rack. But
I think since I have 60 days to return it I will probably just return it. This one is the automatic one or get the hand held one to try that way.
I don't need him to turn into a basket case for sure !

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Response to mopinko (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 11:20 AM

9. Have you considered clicker training? Once you get them to respond to a click or sound with....

positive reinforcement, the click will then get their attention and avoid negative reinforcement altogether. If you read up on behavior shaping you'll see that it's a matter of training by actually changing the response patterns in an animals brain or using fear (of sound punishment) to scare them straight.

The problem with the beeper is that it will either stop working when you stop using it or it may damage the dog permanently (like Henry).

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Response to Walk away (Reply #9)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 11:46 AM

10. the thought of having to keep track of a clicker in my universe

makes me shake like a wet chihuahua. most of the training i do is of the 'teachable moment' sort. it would never work for me. but i do try to be consistent in my use of words and commands.
i'm looking at it as the kind of thing that cesar uses to redirect their attention to me. we had been making progress already, and i think it will really get the whole thing battened down.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:56 PM

11. I didn't realize you were using Cesar as a guide post in your training.

His techniques are mostly negative reinforcement so I guess it makes sense to use the egg. From what I have seen of his work, attention is commanded with either a verbal or physical correction. I am sure it works but I believe that even the most confident dog pays a price eventually.

It's the difference between teaching you children lessons through communication and reward instead of threats and fear. Your dogs aren't looking at you because they like the sound of the beep. The sound is calculated to frighten them. They may even begin to associate you coming to the door as part of what upsets them. Shaping behavior is a two way street.

I don't mean to be preachy. I'm just trying to explain what is actually happening when you use this beeper. It will never give you trust and engagement like positive reinforcement will. And if you think carrying a clicker is a pain, then having an "egg" everywhere you go must seem impossible.
You can replace the clicker with a simple verbal command and solve that problem.

I have worked with animals for forty years and used almost every training technique. Nothing works as well at changing behavior, raising a happy and confident dog and building a great human/dog bond like simple positive behavior shaping. You may get the results that you want doing it the other way but you will never know what you may be missing.



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Response to Walk away (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 02:46 PM

12. i don't see cesar as negative.

in fact, i am kinda scratching my head here. most of what we have done so far has been about letting them know that they can count on me to listen to them but also to keep them safe.
the only thing they get an actual punishment for is dog aggression. that, they get the flip. having 2 male bulldogs, even tho they are neutered, is just a necessity.
i don't expect to need the egg for long. i will couple it with a verbal cue of "hey!" but follow it with a recall and a food treat if i have one.

everything cesar ever taught me worked just like he said it would. i am the big dog in my house, and they all seem to like it that way.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:46 PM

13. people make the mistake in thinking that "negative" means hitting or yelling....

In behavioral science, positive stimuli is simply rewarding positive behavior.

Negative reinforcement is reacting to negative behavior. Actions such as leash corrections when a dog is doing some kind of unwanted behavior, voice corrections or vocal sounds to correct dogs when they are doing something wrong is negative reinforcement. When a person exhibits confrontational alpha behavior when a dog is misbehaving, such as moving into the dog's space, using body language, voice or leash correction to stop a behavior, it is negative. Rewarding them after these correction are used is not considered positive reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement is simply the act of calmly waiting (without reacting) until the negative behavior stops and rewarding the behavior that you want intermittently. You can also learn the animals cues and BEFORE they react use reward as a lure and then a reward for good behavior. It is simple, easy and actually does change the way the animal reacts to stimuli. The result is a dog that is constantly looking for ways to achieve reward ( even a simple "good boy") instead of doing things because you are the boss and it means something negative will happen if they don't listen to you.

I am not saying that Cesar's way doesn't get results but most modern trainers use real science to train these days. You will never meet a dog trained to work with the deaf or disabled or a Seeing Eye dog trained by Cesar Milan's methods.

p.s. Negative training methods don't always last. The beauty of positive reinforcement is that it actually changes a dogs reaction to stimuli. The more intermittent it is the better it works. If you choose the negative route it must be consistent. If the animal finds out that he sometimes will not get a beep he will eventually become more resistant. This is Science.

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Response to Walk away (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:01 PM

15. i don't think stepping into this dogs space is negative.

i think that she is acting out of fear, and my stepping in is letting her know that her pack leader is looking out for her. she is reassured. when i do this, i give a command, like sit or down, then praise that behavior. i know following it with something positive doesn't make it positive, but it does help.
i do understand about all this stuff, but i just don't find it practical to always be positive. sometimes you have behaviors that you just have to stop. her barking is feeding into the whole pack, and i need to be the alpha here. they accept that.
i don't see this beeper as punishment so much as redirection. i can get her attention, give her another command that she is then in a frame of mind to execute, and praise her for that.
i really do mostly use positive methods, watch for teachable moments, reward good behavior, but i also try to be a good alpha. i keep things under control.
i do worry about the other dogs getting corrected even tho they are not barking, but it appears that the bulldogs are almost completely oblivious. they do not really react. so, that is a good thing.
i am trying to make sure that any time i hit the beeper i am also saying 'hey', which is my all purpose attention getting command. i think this will just add to the power of that word, and hopefully we can leave the beeper behind soon.
appreciate your input.

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Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:51 PM

14. seems to already be working.

out with them most of the day, and only had two opportunities to use it. worked like magic. followed up with a recall and a treat, like we have been doing. i think this is going to make life a lot more pleasant around here.

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Response to mopinko (Original post)

Tue Oct 2, 2012, 05:57 PM

16. thought i would post about our progress with this tool.

this tool has worked remarkably well for us.
it is basically just a digital dog whistle, and has been working exactly as such. it has fit in with the training that i was already doing- using the distraction of a dog barking, passing by, etc, to practice their recall. by getting between them and the distraction whenever possible, and getting them to come and sit, we had already made big progress. i built on that to teach the word 'hey' to get their attention, then call them.
i have been careful to use that 'hey' any time that i use the beeper, so that if it is not handy, i can still use that, and usually get their attention. but when i hit that button, although they jump some, they take it as a recall command, and come running.
when it is a situation where someone has come into the house, it is very difficult to get them to come, but they do settle and quiet down.
but the big thing is that they just don't go off barking like idiots at the drop of a pin. i am very happy about that. now i know if they are barking, there is a reason.

i would not like to see someone just hitting the button and yelling at the dogs to shut up. i would not use the automatic one unless it was a real problem, and unless i had already done this groundwork. but i think it is a very effective tool. very grateful to have it.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #16)

Fri Oct 5, 2012, 06:28 PM

17. I'm

curious as to what happens when you are away from the house and they are there alone. I have a problem with
complaints from neighbors about the barking. He only barks when he hears something outside, but guess these neighbors aren't dog
owners or lovers.

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Response to KC (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 11, 2012, 06:29 PM

18. it does come in a bark activated version.

but i would have my doubts that it would do anything but make the dog a wreck without other training attached. but i guess it depends on the temperament of the dog. the bullies don't seem to even hear the thing.

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Response to mopinko (Original post)

Wed Oct 17, 2012, 04:30 AM

19. I used an automatic citron spray collar.

Whenever she barked it shot a small spray of citron in front of her.
It completely shocked her and she completely stopped barking after three days.
I've still got it but never needed it again.

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