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Fri Oct 12, 2012, 01:07 PM

Rest in peace Amanda. Bullied Teen Commits Suicide After Posting Last-Ditch Cry for Help on YouTube

Last edited Wed Mar 6, 2013, 10:25 PM - Edit history (2)




Bullied Canadian Teen Commits Suicide After Posting Last-Ditch Cry for Help on YouTube




A 15-year-old girl from Metro Vancouver reportedly committed suicide last night, just over a month after posting a YouTube video recounting how bullying forced her to switch schools and drove her to drugs, alcohol, and self-harm.

In the video, Amanda Todd describes on cue cards her experiences with both real-world and online bullying. She says she recalls being severely beaten by classmates and having nude photos of her circulated on the web.

"I'm struggling to stay in this world, because everything just touches me so deeply," Todd says. "I'm not doing this for attention. I'm doing this to be an inspiration and to show that I can be strong."

Sadly, police in Coquitlam confirmed this morning that Todd committed suicide on Wednesday, though would not elaborate. An investigation into her "sudden death" is ongoing.

...

http://gawker.com/5951070/bullied-canadian-teen-commits-suicide-after-posting-last+ditch-cry-for-help-on-youtube




Rest in peace Amanda Michelle Todd

I can't say what I want done to the slime who did this to a 7th grader. I can't stop crying.


On Facebook: "Rest in paradise Amanda Michelle Todd" but there are several more, you can find them easily. Sadly her personal page is still up with a few of her public pictures and some pictures, including this one




Twitter hashtags #RIPAmanda and #RIPAmandaTodd

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Reply Rest in peace Amanda. Bullied Teen Commits Suicide After Posting Last-Ditch Cry for Help on YouTube (Original post)
Catherina Oct 2012 OP
Doctor_J Oct 2012 #1
johnlucas Oct 2012 #2
caseymoz Oct 2012 #4
johnlucas Oct 2012 #5
caseymoz Oct 2012 #6
johnlucas Oct 2012 #7
caseymoz Oct 2012 #9
johnlucas Oct 2012 #10
caseymoz Oct 2012 #13
regnaD kciN Oct 2012 #35
johnlucas Oct 2012 #36
caseymoz Oct 2012 #3
Catherina Oct 2012 #15
LadyHawkAZ Oct 2012 #8
Zorra Oct 2012 #11
Starry Messenger Oct 2012 #12
Catherina Oct 2012 #14
johnlucas Oct 2012 #20
Catherina Oct 2012 #21
johnlucas Oct 2012 #23
KatyaR Oct 2012 #27
Gormy Cuss Oct 2012 #22
johnlucas Oct 2012 #24
Gormy Cuss Oct 2012 #34
johnlucas Oct 2012 #48
Gormy Cuss Oct 2012 #49
johnlucas Oct 2012 #54
Gormy Cuss Oct 2012 #60
johnlucas Oct 2012 #26
LadyHawkAZ Oct 2012 #28
johnlucas Oct 2012 #30
LadyHawkAZ Oct 2012 #32
johnlucas Oct 2012 #33
LadyHawkAZ Oct 2012 #37
johnlucas Oct 2012 #45
LadyHawkAZ Oct 2012 #46
johnlucas Oct 2012 #55
Zorra Oct 2012 #50
johnlucas Oct 2012 #51
Zorra Oct 2012 #52
johnlucas Oct 2012 #53
Zorra Oct 2012 #58
johnlucas Oct 2012 #59
MadrasT Oct 2012 #56
Catherina Oct 2012 #16
Catherina Oct 2012 #17
johnlucas Oct 2012 #25
Catherina Oct 2012 #18
Catherina Oct 2012 #19
Catherina Oct 2012 #29
LadyHawkAZ Oct 2012 #38
Catherina Oct 2012 #39
Catherina Oct 2012 #43
LadyHawkAZ Oct 2012 #44
Blue_Tires Oct 2012 #57
Batman bin Suparman Oct 2012 #47
Catherina Oct 2012 #31
smirkymonkey Mar 2013 #61
Catherina Mar 2013 #63
Catherina Oct 2012 #40
Catherina Oct 2012 #41
smirkymonkey Mar 2013 #62
Catherina Mar 2013 #64
Catherina Oct 2012 #42
TeeYiYi Mar 2013 #65
polly7 Apr 2014 #66
Catherina Apr 2014 #67
LadyHawkAZ Apr 2014 #68
polly7 Apr 2014 #69
LadyHawkAZ Apr 2014 #70

Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:03 PM

1. A shame on many levels

exposing herself while in 7th grade. talking about her problems on youtube instead of with friends, family, or doctors. Hopefully she is RIP

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:56 PM

2. The Internet has Cons as well as Pros. It amplifies schoolyard stuff exponentially

Kids were doing this kind of mean stuff forever but if you moved most likely all that dirt didn't follow you & you can start over.
Today, EVERYTHING is connected. EVERYTHING is transmitted.

If somebody doesn't like you for whatever reason, social networking through the internet can destroy a kid unprepared to deal with barrage.
I was born in 1976 & when I was in school through the 80s & early 90s it could never get this bad.

Kids didn't have smartphones that snap pictures & videos of you at any time whether you posed for it or not.
There was no YouTube to post those pictures & videos to the whole entire world.
There was no texting by cellphone/smartphone & no Facebook/Twitter or whatever else to create instant rumor-mongering & social shaming.

There were barely cellphones & they were giant monstrosities anyway. Mostly the few who could afford stuff like that would just have beepers & pagers.
All you had was that mean word of mouth & the bathroom walls to scratch a nasty message in.
People fought you with their fists more than not. A squad ganging up on you maybe.
No gun shoot outs at my school in my time. You might have had to worry about butterfly knifes sometimes (but they most likely would be confiscated).

It was very low tech. You had to face people & talk junk through word of mouth alone.
My school didn't even allow kids to have calculators much less cellphones.

Today anybody at any given time can snap a picture, record a video, post screeds on social networking sites, post pics & videos through online video/picture services & ruin a reputation in record time.
Everything you do & even DON'T do can be plastered all over the Internet to follow you no matter WHERE you go or what you do.

It's good for catching crooked politicians & crooked people but it also allows stalkers, slanderers & all the worst kind of people to put Scarlet Letters on you bigger than André the Giant.

It's hard for ADULTS to deal with crap like this.
Kids/Teens don't know how to deal with this.
And that's why you better think REALLY hard about allowing your kid to have a cellphone/smartphone, allowing them access to Facebook & stuff like that.
And even IF you block those things out, it doesn't mean that your kid won't SEEK them out like all kids do with forbidden things.
When they go to their friend's house & do the stuff they couldn't do at their own house.
When they sneak out & do things behind your back anyway.

But kids REALLY have a deficit when it comes to understanding consequences to actions.
And one mistake may be too late to correct in this overly-connected internet world we live in now.

Amanda Todd did what kids have always done. And her demeaners & bullies did what demeaners & bullies have always done.
The difference is the Internet & how it can follow you for life.

The truth is once kids get to teen level you're not going to be able to protect them from all this.
You won't be able to immunize them to all this. They're going to sneak out & find a way.
Even IF they don't do anything, that same ignorant schoolyard crap can be immortalized by the Internet.

Best to teach kids how to defy conformity & learn to live with the world against you.
How to be one that goes against the grain & can weather the storms of social shaming & rumor-mongering.
It doesn't matter what your kid does, when the other kids want to demonize you, you will be demonized.
Teach your kids how to handle the demonization & defy it.

So sad for Amanda Todd.
High school is meaningless. She shouldn't have thought it was the end of the world because it wasn't.
I wish I could have told her these words before she took her life.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #2)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 01:40 AM

4. Actually, I would just show teens this story . . .


. . . and tell them if they flash, they will have a hard time surviving the bullying and harassment that will come. I think the frightfulness of stories like this will carry the message far better than anything the parent actually says.

I think it does matter what you do. Though they can bully you anyway, I think they'll stop short of wishing you dead. That crosses from bullying into pure atavistic hatred.

What instinct was triggered here? By nudity.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 05:19 AM

5. It'll stop a few. But people always think things like this won't happen to them...until it does

Oh sure, this story will cause a few to be cautious & thoughtful about their actions in this internet-embedded world.
Just like a few kids saw those "This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?" commercials & steered clear of drug abuse.
Just like a few kids saw drunk driving accidents & steered clear of drinking & driving.
Just like a few kids saw teen mothers in school & steered clear of getting pregnant too early.
Just like a few kids were taught about safe sex & made sure to use condoms if they had sex.

But MOST kids DON'T think like that.
Just like most ADULTS don't think like that.
Human nature tends to go in the direction of "Well that's him/her. I won't end up like him/her".

Our whole thing about politics in this Democratic Undeground forum is people never realizing the consequences of their voting actions until they THEMSELVES are faced with it PERSONALLY.
A hardcore Republican always putting down people on welfare, never seeing the need for national health care, all of sudden getting sick, losing their job while sick, depleting their rainy day fund, & forced to go on welfare to survive NOW sees why people on welfare aren't automatically bad people & why there needs to be a national health care system.
None of this registered until it happened to THEM personally.

Kids are just mini adults. Adults in training.
And these SAME mentalities lurks in the minds of these kids.
ESPECIALLY with that hormone rush that makes them think they're invincible & can do anything.

Yeah a few kids will become more cautious after seeing something like this.
I had people in my own family who smoke & drank, who fell into drug abuse & I vowed as a child never to smoke, drink, get into drugs because I saw what it did to my family members. I learned from their example.

I hated cigarettes because I saw ugly cigarette burns on the edges of blankets, because I saw family members try to laugh but couldn't get through it since they were choked up with smoke (I like to laugh).
Plus it was a drain on your personal budget buying them cigarettes everyday.
I hated alcohol because it made you lose control of yourself, it tasted like crap, smelled like crap, made you act like crap.
I hated other drugs because of the method of introduction (snorting through nose, needle through arm) & how extreme the aftereffects were. I didn't like to lose control of myself like that.

I damn sure didn't want to be a teen father for many reasons & I didn't want to catch STD's through irresponsible sex.
And I also didn't want to follow some of my family members' penchant for getting jailed or imprisoned.
I made SURE not to be wild out there in the streets fighting & carrying on because I didn't want to follow bad examples.

So I learned from their mistakes. But did some of my other family members my age & younger?
No. I got cousins locked up right now as we speak. Other cousins dead from those games in the streets.

Everybody doesn't learn from the mistakes of others.
I would say MOST people don't learn from the mistakes of others without going through the same mistakes first.
If they did, humanity wouldn't continue to wage ignorant wars with each other.
People would look back at history & say I don't want to follow the same path.

This girl did what a lot of girls do at that age.
They're exploring their sexuality as puberty takes root & seeing what they can do.
It's no reason to treat her like she was treated.
The other girls were jealous of her & did that Mean Girls crap to ruin her reputation.
But now it's not localized because the World Wide Web of today connects & transmits EVERYTHING to EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.

So it follows you & kids keep up that predictable high school cliquish behavior.
This girl was dependent on the views & opinions of her peers & that's why she got affected by all of this.
The best answer is not to futilely try to block your kids from this world (that never worked).
The answer is to teach them to deal with that type of behavior & be mentally strong enough to be an outcast so they can persevere.

I told myself as a teen that I wouldn't lose touch with my life as a child when I got to be an adult.
To act like how most parents act with their children forgetting how those same parents acted when THEY were children.
Trying to overshelter them & act hypocritical to the kid when the parents did or do the same thing.
When kids get to double digits they find out about stuff one way or another. You can't keep it from them.
They're too smart for that. They're just not smart enough to understand consequences.

"You can't go to Johnny's house! I want you back here by 8PM!"
The kid finds a way to go to Johnny's house behind your back & tries to sneak in at home after 8PM has long past.
Her friends try to cover for her saying she was at their house & the power went out so they lost track of time.
Story as old as time.

As always, warnings only stop a few. Humans love the forbidden fruit.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 10:55 AM

6. No, I think if you look at . . .


. . . the number of teens who flash on the Internet, the percentage is not that high. Unlike many of the other behaviors you've listed. Definitely the number who are persuaded to do it by an adult are low.

And it was peer pressure afterward that drove her to suicide. It's peer pressure that reinforces the other behaviors you've listed. In other words, the avoidance of the exact punishment that befell Amanda Todd.

And it took an adult hours of persuasion to persuade her to flash. She didn't do it at the persuasion of one of her peers. She did it for adult attention.

The consequences presented here add up to a nightmare scenario for any middle-or-high schooler. It's the fear they live with every day. They don't get that level of harassment from drugs or driving to fast. Or even sex with each other. Any of them would be terrified of this.

What you say is true of drugs, smoking, drinking and the rest, but I'm sorry. It doesn't apply to this behavior. You're simply wrong about this.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 01:43 PM

7. Well what about sexting between teens?

A girl could be showing naked pictures to some boyfriend of hers.
They break up for whatever reason & he can show the school the pics of his former girlfriend for revenge.
He could post them on Facebook or Tumblr or wherever.
Same effect right?

Something a teenage girl did thoughtlessly trying to impress somebody & then the pic is blasted everywhere embarrassing her.
How many teenage girls run away from home getting caught up with some boyfriend when their adolescent hormones are raging high?
Kids just don't always think about the consequences of what they do.
Hell, many adults don't think about the consequences!

When kids hit those teenage years a good number of them think they're grown & start acting out risky behaviors.
And it's much harder to quarantine kids away from having access to dangerous activities with the internet & all the gadgets around.
A parent might be able to control things in their house but kids can do things once they're out of the house.
A lot of teens have their own smartphones so a girl might use her friend's own if the girl's parents won't let her have one.
She can do things her parents forbid on phones while at school. They can send sexting messages in the school restroom.

Think about your childhood & how much you did without your parents knowing about it.
Parents are human & can't watch everything.

It's all a matter of how much kids in the school WANT to ruin someone's reputation.
If they don't like you for whatever reason, they will do their best to ruin you.
And if they have fuel to feed off of like a nude pic then they'll use it against you.

It's the same human group dynamics as always but now amplified exponentially thanks to modern technology & communication.
I don't really see how kids can avoid this without going Amish.
I say it's best to teach kids how to deal with groupthink & learn how stand alone if the situation calls for it.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #7)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 04:58 PM

9. Sexting is why you show them this story.


Didn't you see that I covered that? I don't think the percentage of teens that do it are very high, and I think you can cut it down much lower by showing what their peers will do to them, such as with this vid. The percent is low. But even with a low percentage, if you've 30 million teens in this country, and 0.1 percent do it, that's still 30,000 cases a year. That's 30,000 stories the news can cover about it. But I haven't seen police statistics. It might be as low as 3,000, and if the news follows 90 percent of them, you have the illusion that it's commonplace. About the same illusion is create by the media with crime.

You watch. I bet you as these stories get more publicized, this is going to be happening far less. If it doesn't, I don't think it'll be because parents show their children this video and the teens disregard it, I think it'll be because the parents don't show them at all.

As common as it is for parents to be ignorant of their teens' actions, it's almost as common for them to remain ignorant, ask the most ill-informed questions, and presume the wrong thing. How many parental hysterias have we seen in our lifetime? Rock and Roll, Dungeons & Dragons, Satanism, Rap Music . . . the list goes on and on.

I think sexting in general is less a teenage problem and more a parental hysteria problem. It does happen, and it's very serious when it does, but don't start a panic or presume it's common. It isn't. And it will become less common.

If you want to teach a teen to deal with groupthink and stand alone, you'll encounter a problem: by the time they learn, they're not teenagers anymore. And it doesn't matter how early you start that lesson.

I'm sorry to say, you're posts are very hard to read due to the format being messed up, and you're repetitious. Because of those and nothing else, I'm ending this discussion.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #9)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 06:28 PM

10. End discussion, sure. But you're not accounting for human nature

Showing what happened to Amanda Todd will stop a few kids but won't stop most.
Because human beings generally don't learn from others' mistakes UNTIL they go through them themselves.

Hasn't all of human history proven that point?
Every generation thinks they're different & will repeat many of the same mistakes the last generation did.
John Lucas

P.S.: And you're naïve if you think sexting is rare among teenagers.

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #10)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:24 PM

13. And PS: You don't listen to anybody.nt

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #13)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 12:45 PM

35. Nor do you...

You've turned this into a one-note "flashing," "flashing," "flashing" sermon.

Yes, that is the proximate cause in this poor girl's case. But if you think that you merely need to keep your blouse buttoned to prevent this sort of harassment from happening, you're living in a fantasy-land. And, IMHO, you're sending the wrong message -- that she was to blame because she exposed her breasts. To me, that's a little like saying a rape victim "asked for it" for dressing scantily, or walking alone at night.

Nobody deserved what that girl went through. And the blame lies with those who harassed her. Period.

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #35)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 01:17 PM

36. Not just on those who harrassed her but the blackmailing stalker himself

And I keep making the point that the larger issue of the increasingly seamless internet needs to seriously be looked at.
Everything spreads everywhere in Web 2.0 land & we're not ready for where web 2.0's gonna take us.

Google wants your mobile phone number just to log into YouTube now.
They SAY it's a failsafe just in case you lose your password.
No, it's a way to track you & obliterate yet another social circle boundary.
Soon every phone call you make can be automatically transcribed & posted all over the Google Network.
Gmails can be blasted everywhere, what you say on YouTube is automatically shared every person you ever met through any Google account.
And if you don't want it to be that way you have to OPT OUT.
Who asked me if I wanted to be Opted IN?

By the time you find out you have already unwittingly shared info you meant for certain eyes to see.
And once it's out there, it's out there.
Google archives everything & it can always be searched.

It's a Brave New World not 1984.
People give it over willingly. You don't have to force them.
Facebook WISHES it could be like Google has become.
They have one sector Google wants to own.
One day I bet that Google will buy out Facebook & when that happens...forget about it.

Meanwhile kids not understanding the ramifications of this current internet world go online naïve to the intentions of strangers & the owners of the web services they use.
One mistake could be permanent & if you can't live with that mistake...

Amanda Todd shouldn't have felt the way she felt.
Web 2.0 shouldn't have this kind of power that stalkers & bullies can use to traumatize a child.
John Lucas

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 01:31 AM

3. This is the saddest story I've seen in a long time.


A horror story, really. It appears if a female goes nude, some people will hate her and never forgive. Sheesh, I can't believe someone would be harassed and bullied to death for something they did in 7th grade! It wasn't even her fault. She had every reason to think an adult wouldn't do that to her. Holding that against her is like holding statutory rape against her. Flashing her breasts should be something that gets he grounded for two or three months, or gets her a misdemeanor juvenile charge, not something that earns her loathing and greatly shortens her life. What instinct was triggered here?

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:53 PM

15. Ican't even dwell on "What instinct was triggered here"

because the answer to that is so dark and ugly.

I cried for 2 days. And her parents are going through heartbreak hell right now

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 04:37 PM

8. I just had to explain to a 17 year old on my Facebook

(and the teenagers on her feed) why it was wrong to blame the poor girl for the actions of other people, and equally wrong to hold the single mistake she made at 12 to a higher standard than the long, repeated mistakes her peers knowingly inflicted on her. My head aches now.

Awful, awful situation all the way around.

ETA this just crossed my path right after I got out of that discussion, and it hits on all the relevant points:
http://www.vancouverobserver.com/blogs/feminista/why-isnt-anyone-talking-about-misogyny-involved-amanda-todds-life-and-death

“There was no discussion of the pressure girls like Amanda experience to measure their worth through their sexual desirability. From her story it sounds like this man had the hallmarks of a predator—he tried to use her photos to blackmail her and yet she's the one who got blamed. This comes from the idea that it's up to girls and women to protect their purity at the same time as all their role models in the media say that you need to ‘get a man’ to be a complete person, that you need to be sexually attractive to be liked, appreciated, and valued. She said the guy she showed off to was telling her how beautiful she was. Given our culture that can be really tempting for a girl.”

Ah yes, context. In a context in which women are told in manifold ways that everything about them is wrong— their emotions, their bodies, their fat, their lack of fat, their developing, their aging—when someone comes along and tells you that you are perfect and beautiful, that’s some powerful stuff.

This man’s intention, when he threatened Todd with exposure of the coercive images, was to make Todd feel like a whore. The weapon that this man was able to rely on was the judgment of our society. Under our unequal social and economic conditions, the stakes are higher when a woman falls out of favour with her community. For a girl or woman, falling out of favour with her community can mean a sentence to a nightmarish cycle of distress.

If we diffuse the judgment, and look at the behaviour of the attacker, we can weaken the attack. We need less focus on “the mistake” and more on the sexism in our society that this man wielded—successfully—to rid the planet of another young woman.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:07 AM

11. +1 ~ ^This^

is very much like how I feel about this tragedy.

Great post.


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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 08:31 AM

12. So much this.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:50 PM

14. Thank you. THIS ^^^^

So she flashed her breasts. Big deal. That gave no pervert the right to use them as his Facebook avatar and stalk her.

I hope the bullies who were involved are prosecuted to the fullest, and if any of them are over 18, prosecute them for child porn while they're at it.

Lots of young people flash and moon. No one deserves what Amanda went through.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #14)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:38 PM

20. Doesn't make it right but it's going to happen if you expose yourself on the internet

Once something is on the internet it's on there forever.
Not everybody is going to respect people's rights & privacy.

That's why I wonder how parents will be able to truly keep their kids from the dangers of the internet.
Just stopping the behavior in your house is not enough.
Kids WILL find a way when they're not under your supervision.

When girls go through puberty, they start experimenting with their sexual appeal.
In these days, they take pics on their webcam & pose in different ways trying to find their best look.
Making smooching faces, making 'sexy eyes' poses, showing off their body.
It's biology. Part of the programming. Part of the instinct.

That's all well & good but when the internet is involved, any sending of picture or video online can come back to haunt a girl.
It's no longer private once you post it on the internet.
Web 2.0 makes everything even WORSE because of the higher connectivity & ease of communication.
Cell phones with camera/video functions make it even easier to transmit pics/videos on these supernetworked Web 2.0 platforms.

It just takes ONE time & if somebody get ahold of that pic or vid, they can copy it & repost it indefinitely.
Remember, kids are not known for their good judgment.

The pervert had no right to stalk & embarrass her but that's who's out there in anonymous internet land.
Everybody is not responsible with people's information & won't think twice about the ethics of what they do.
The society has become voyeuristic. Kids really need to understand the dark side of the internet.
You can't shelter them. You gotta teach them about consequences & how to weather storms.

This girl shouldn't have died from something stupid like this.
She didn't have the knowledge to weather/counter bully behavior & didn't feel she had anybody she could turn to to discuss the situation.
The flashing was a mistake & an embarrassing one but if she understood how small High School was, she wouldn't have let those buillies win.

Sad to know that only a few will learn from what she went through.
It's always just a few & that's infuriating.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #20)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 04:46 PM

21. Your answers are very... polite

but I can't deal with them. Apologies to you and to everyone else but I very much regret posting this here. I can't deal with this kind of boys will be boys, here's a lesson about reality, attitude.

I hope this doesn't happen to your daughter or a future daughter of yours. If it ever does, I'll be there to defend and support her instead of saying what a stupid twit she was.

But for now, next thing, I'll send a postcard to the kids in Pakistan, telling them stay indoors all day because we're too fucking complicit to get anything changed. All of it for the mighty dick that can't control itself.

When girls go through puberty, they start experimenting with their sexual appeal.

and our sons? innocent lambs right?

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Response to Catherina (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 09:32 PM

23. I don't condone the 'boys will be boys' mindset but people will exploit you on the internet

We can shout all day "THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS TO HER!" & they shouldn't have.
Nobody is in favor of bullies & stalkers.

But it's the same thing as telling your 6 year old not to talk to strangers.
Same thing as telling your 6 year old not to tell random strangers where you live.
It's because there is danger in this world & everybody is not going to be ethical & respectful.

With the internet once it's out there it's out there.
I could go track the guy down & make him pay legally for posting my girl's pic in his avatar.
But what if he's already copied & reproduced that pic in other places on the net?
You can't track all of that down.

I used to put a picture of my face on my Yahoo profile until I realized how someone could use this pic outside of where I intended it.
I removed my picture so it wouldn't be abused like that.
When I first got on the internet I was working on a project & posted my entire address in some random forum looking to make a contact.
Years later I had some internet stalker post that same address in hopes of scaring me off a discussion group.
They couldn't win the debate so they tried to intimidate me by posting my address.
I learned soon after posting that address that I was not supposed to post addresses online & stopped doing it.
But it didn't matter. They dug it up & threw it back in my face. All those years later.

It's like Whack-A-Mole.
You can stop this one but you can't stop the other one that pops up.

I really don't think kids should be on Facebook & Twitter & stuff like that because of how those services make it so easy to broadcast everything to everybody. Kids just don't have good judgment about stuff like this.
But that's not a realistic answer either.
That's reactionary & my post was looking for a smarter solution.

Yeah boys do the same thing & post sexual pics & vids when they hit puberty too.
I was keeping it on topic since this was a girl.
Didn't say she was stupid. I said she made a mistake & didn't feel she had anyone to talk it through.

What would I have done if it was my girl?
Well, my girl would be well versed into understanding how the internet works.
She would know that once something is posted on here it's FOREVER.
I would run through it with her BEFORE she got into her teens. And DURING.
I would not quarantine her from the internet but teach her how to use it responsibly.
I would also have her mother explain how taking cutesy sexy pics & posting them online invites creepers, stalkers, & pedophiles.
If she still made the mistake of posting a sexy pic online ('cause kids don't always heed caution), I would do my best to track the person down who reposted it & have that person be dealt with legally while petitioning for his pics to be removed from the archives.
I would re-explain my position on the permanence of the internet to her showing her by example that I wasn't blowing smoke out of my ass.
I would comfort her if the embarrassment gets to be too much to deal with.
I would then teach her how to deal with any backlash that may come from her momentary mistake.
I would not permanently remove access to the internet from her but may keep her from using it in my house temporarily as punishment.

But if I'm effective in teaching her what the internet's about I won't have to go through half of those steps.

It was less the vid that killed this girl. It was more the harassment from the schoolkids.
But kids have ALWAYS had to deal with harassment from schoolkids.
I dealt with it & I would teach my girl how to weather those predictable storms.

It's not realistic to get into the Whack-A-Mole game trying to individually go after each kid that posted poison bleach pics & said mean things. There will always be more kids jumping on the bandwagon.
You gotta teach your kids how to not let that talk affect you.

Take the case of Paris Jackson, Michael Jackson's daughter.
When he was alive this girl was not online.
He valued his privacy & didn't want to endanger his children with that fishbowl nonsense he had to deal with all of his life.
Then he died.

Afterwards somehow Paris Jackson starts up a Twitter account & posts pics online.
She willingly walks right into the fishbowl that Michael quarantined her from all her life.
The older she gets, the more cutesy her pics.
Showing off her eyes, making kissy faces, showing off her makeup.
It's mild but she is doing the same thing kids do at that age: evaluating her sexual appeal AKA trying to see how cute she can look.

When the whole thing about the Jacksons blew up this summer, here's Paris online tweeting all kinds of words on Twitter & inviting the media hounds into the family business.
What Michael spent his entire life trying to protect her from, she willingly walks towards.
He was so private & she is so public.
And at 14 years old, you're gonna have a hard time getting her to understand the consequences of her online actions as mild as they may be.
If you try to take it away from her, then she'll rebel & try to do it anyway through someone else.
She may lay low for awhile but in the future she'll learn to be more discreet so her grandmother doesn't find out what she's doing.

Because Michael forbid any contact with online services like these, she couldn't wait to jump into a world she never got to know.
When kids are forbidden something all you do is make it more attractive to them.
And when they get a taste & they're gonna jump right in headlong.
Both of Paris' parents were private. Her mother Debbie Rowe is so private that people barely know who she is.
So naturally Paris the child will be opposite of them.

We live in a internet world now & you better be REALISTIC on how it works.
You better prepare your kids how to deal with this world & its aftereffects.
I'm an adult & I don't like Facebook. I don't like a lot of this Web 2.0 crap.
Too invasive. Too automatically public. Too dismissive of the concept of social circles.
Hell, I don't even own a cellphone! Much less a smartphone.

Now when you watch YouTube videos, Google wants you to input your mobile number—just in case you forget your password—and now wants you to post your real name in place of your username.
They want things even MORE connected than ever before.

Either you live like the Amish & stay away from the internet or you deal with the reality of how it works.
Saying "THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS TO HER!!" ain't gonna protect your daughter from crap like this.
Once it's out there it's out there.
John Lucas

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Response to Catherina (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 11:33 PM

27. "All of it for the mighty dick that can't control itself."

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #20)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 06:57 PM

22. And we as a society have the choice to make life more difficult for the stalker

rather than just throw up our hands and say "hey, it's the internet," which seems to be the most common response. I absolutely agree that children need to understand and fear the power of a public action or posting but I think that we need to get real about instituting strong privacy laws in this country.(eta I know that this poor teen was Canadian, but the same situation happens here too.) That won't end the internet abuses but it would at least stop some of it and provide remedies that might make someone think twice about abusing someone this way.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #22)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 09:52 PM

24. Yes, I'm in favor of laws addressing internet stalking

But here's the thing about the internet.
People don't always access it from their own computers.
It's a global system so the stalker may live in an entirely different country.
How do you prosecute that?

You could say everybody should post with their real name but then you couldn't be Gormy Cuss & say what you wanted to say for fear that every word, every political position would be used against you at the workplace or when you seek employment.
Anonymity gives safe havens for the creeps but it also protects everybody else.

Some people are known to mask their origins so tracking them down becomes tricky.
There are people who hack into other folks' routers & can do their dirt under someone else's IP Address.
Then you'll get case of mistaken arrest & the mistakenly arrested person can't know everything that goes on outside of his house.
Hell, it can be a friend of yours who came by to visit & did evil stuff on your own computer without your knowledge.
Or brought his laptop/tablet over & accessed your Wi-Fi signal using your IP Address in the process.

If you make a law to curb internet stalking, you better think these things through REALLY CAREFULLY.
The best thing to do for now is to MAKE SURE your kids REALLY UNDERSTAND what the Internet is about.
And if parents forbid the internet from them, parents need to understand that in this world filled with pic/vid recording, internet-connected smartphones/cellphones that just keeping them away from it in your house does not necessarily keep them away from it outside your house.

I was internet stalked before.
I'm telling you that smarter use of the internet is the REAL answer.
And if they make any laws to curb internet stalking they'll probably mess something else up in the process.

They haven't even mastered the old network—the phone system—yet.
How many times do telemarketers find your phone number & call you/message you out of the blue?
That's just audio.
Internet is video AND audio.
And much more versatile & vast than the phone network.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #24)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 12:37 PM

34. It's possible to hunt down and identify individual stalkers within national borders

Last edited Wed Oct 17, 2012, 01:35 PM - Edit history (1)

and also internationally in countries with mutual agreements. I'm not willing to give up on it because some criminals are craftier than others. Most who engage in this behavior are not that clever.

I also didn't mean just internet stalking, I mean ALL privacy invasions, online and off. People just throwing up their hands isn't going to solve the problem. Shifting the cultural acceptance of privacy invasion would make a difference and the quickest way to shift the acceptance is to enact strict privacy laws. I'd be happy if we just had the level typical in an EU country.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #34)

Wed Oct 17, 2012, 07:48 AM

48. Well let's work on the ones within the national borders

But don't make it an unintelligent plan that reduces the freedoms of the people who use the internet properly.

Watch out on that 'ALL privacy invasions' stuff though.
You wouldn't have had your Mitt Romney 47% video when he said things on private grounds.

A smart plan that concentrates on protecting people from creeps & stalkers without resorting to having all internet users post with their real name everywhere by default.
A smart plan that doesn't falsely accuse someone because another person played off of that person's IP address without his/her knowledge.
A smart plan that doesn't ask us to submit our fingerprints to verify our accounts.

I want to keep the internet as free & open as possible.
It's our only channel against this mass media control.
Its loose nature helps us as much as it hurts us.
Pretty soon there could be laws forbidding the posting of police brutality videos on YouTube.

Think smart about the privacy laws before you lose the internet too.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #48)

Wed Oct 17, 2012, 01:34 PM

49. I don't think that the fear of making the internet less free is a valid argument against privacy law

What our 'freedom' from privacy laws allows now is for private companies to compile and sell incredibly detailed data profiles, for individuals to do the same for stalking or bullying and we have no right to access or control the information disseminated about us. Brandeis is rolling in his grave.

I've written privacy controls as part of work product. I'm not naive about it. I've handled sensitive data and signed many non-disclosure agreements understanding that at a minimum I would be fired and in some cases violation of the confidentiality would land me in jail. It's a powerful disincentive.

Remember when HIPAA passed and there was all sorts of hand-wringing about how it went too far? I do. Fact of the matter is all that it did was institute reasonable control of medical privacy for individuals.
If the public actually clamored for it, reasonable controls could be instituted on electronic media. It's not an all or nothing situation, it's not too late to control the use of data that is already out there, if people just cared about it.



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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #49)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 08:16 AM

54. As long as it's smart regulation I'm down

Let's get it done.
That first thing you mentioned troubles me & it's EXACTLY why I don't trust Facebook & stuff like that.
I HATE to be Opted In to stuff without my approval. I shouldn't have to Opt Out.

You think we can get Obama on this or will we have to wait until 2016 to push for this?
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #54)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 09:24 PM

60. I don't think Obama will do anything about it, nor do I expect Congress to act.

There just isn't enough public interest in this topic at the moment.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #8)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 10:58 PM

26. No, the answer was to expose this guy who threatened her about the pics

This is biology.
Puberty hits, kids start trying to practice their attractiveness.
You ain't stopping that.
Girls put on their cuteness, boys put on their ruggedness.
You're swimming uphill talking about changing the nature of male/female behavior which is to attract each other.

Amanda was given internet access through cellphone or computer in her room & she used this freedom to post pics to online services.
But she wasn't an adult & probably shouldn't have been given this freedom in the first place.
She made a youthful mistake showing off her chest as a 7th grader to a grown man.
It shouldn't give her Scarlet Letter for life & the kids shouldn't treat her as trash because she exposed herself.

The grown man who threatened to expose her pics...Amanda should have told her parents about him & got him prosecuted for child porn.
Then he couldn't make no more threats.
But the pics were out there no matter what happened.
She should have been taught how to deal with aftereffects so she wouldn't feel suicidal.

This is not a case of sexism. This is a case of a child not knowing any better & an adult taking advantage of the ignorance of a child.
He shouldn't have been in the place to MAKE threats in the first place.

But it all goes to how little people understand about this modern internet world.
My little female cousins are all over Facebook & stuff like that. There's lot of stuff they do on there that their parents probably don't know about.
Not saying they're doing any provocative but that their parents probably don't understand all what goes on there.
Everything is connected & broadcast so easily & so instantly with no boundaries.
Web 2.0 is very scary if you don't deal with it properly.

I'm an adult & am shying away from services like these. I would only use them for business promotion purposes at best.
But the world in general has gone for social media. I'm actually out of step with society in this regard but being an adult I'm not so dependent on the opinions of my peers.
Teenagers in general live & die off the opinions of their peers.
And that means they're gonna go on chat it up Facebook/Twitter/Tumblr, snap pics & vids to share with their friends.

That's what killed her. She let these people matter.
These people didn't matter. The only thing that mattered was an adult trying to take advantage of a child.
Whether the pic would have been exposed or not, he shouldn't have been in the position to threaten anybody like that again.
And her parents found out too late what it means to give a child too much freedom on the internet without knowledge.

Feminism is about women being in charge of their own choices.
She was not a woman yet & her parents were in charge of her choices.
Their choice to underestimate the reality of today's internet world & her access to it led to an adult exploiting a child.
The aftereffects of this exploitation led to bullying from her peers.

I don't judge this girl for that mistake. I blame the guy for his exploitation & the kids for bullying her.
But ultimately I wonder about the scope of the internet today & how unprepared we really are for it.
If we understood this better, that girl couldn't have made that mistake, that guy couldn't exploit her, & those kids would have no chance to bully her.

This will happen again & it's not because girls are told they're beautiful.
We have opened a Pandora's Box with Web 2.0.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #26)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 12:38 AM

28. The fact that she was taken advantage of by a perverted pedo

and that the perv ought to be sitting in a cell all alone for the next 50 years goes without saying. That stuff's not even up for debate. The misogyny issue arises in the treatment SHE received for HIS actions. And yes, it is a misogyny issue and it has nothing to do with the onset of puberty or the normal sexual interests that arise with puberty. You said it yourself:

It shouldn't give her Scarlet Letter for life & the kids shouldn't treat her as trash because she exposed herself.


Bingo! It becomes even clearer with the later issue of sexual activity with a guy who had a girlfriend- and she took a physical beating for that one. The guy, on the other hand, was not only not condemned for HIS actions (his relationship was HIS responsibility, not Amanda's), but was apparently given a pass by the girlfriend since he showed up with her for that beating. If you want to explain how there's not a massive double standard in all of this, go ahead, but I'll probably laugh at you.

We live in a society that still bases the worth of a female on her appearance, with standards for that appearance that are impossible to meet. This is what an insecure young girl is going to worry most about, no matter what the problems in her life actually are, because this is the standard that our media-driven society sets- no matter what your problems are, they would all be solved if you were only more perfect, more beautiful. Everyone would like you, everyone would be your friend, if you just were thinner or your breasts were bigger/smaller or your nose was more straight or your hair would just curl or your skin never had a zit or pores... That's how predators like the one that got to Amanda are able to operate- any insecure young girl is going to feel inadequate and ashamed of her body, so it's not that difficult to talk her into showing more than she should by telling her how beautiful that "imperfect" body is. The internet has made access easier, true, but you really think this stuff didn't happen back in the days of Polaroids? Or before? The Catholic Church built a highly profitable industry around stealing the babies from young, unmarried girls that got caught in that trap and got pregnant, and it lasted for generations.

And married to that impossibly high standard of physical beauty, which could probably be dealt with by itself, is the old, tired, worn-out madonna/whore complex that waits quietly in the wings until you DO develop those lovely sexual features, then condemns you for using them. THIS is what got Amanda in the end- not just showing her breasts, but the firestorm of slut-shame that resulted from it. Men do not have a similar standard. We just had a thread recently on a schoolteacher being fired because of underwear modeling she'd done 17 years earlier- compare that to the fate of a man who posed nude in his 20's:



Meet Senator Scott Brown. That behavior, which condemns a woman for displaying the same sexuality it demands that she have yet applauds a man for the same action, is not biological behavior. It's cultural. Were it not for that sad old madonna/whore complex that we've raised our children on, combined with a cultural delight in tormenting those we consider "lesser" or "different", that picture wouldn't have been such an issue with her peers.

You could wipe out the Internet tomorrow and those issues would still be a problem, because that is how our society is structured. Female sexuality is still condemned, even in one as young as Amanda was, even if it's through no fault of her own. This is not the fault of the Internet, but of the attitude her torturers were raised on.

And the mindset doesn't develop in a vacuum. Babies don't look at other babies with no shirt on and think "what a slut!". We teach our daughters to be ashamed of their sexuality, and to shame other girls for theirs. You yourself have chosen to place the blame on her parents for allowing her Internet access, yet the kids who bullied and beat her also had parents and they are not mentioned-neither are the school officials who knew this was going on. You've fallen into the same trap that the article discusses; while you're progressive enough not to blame a 12 year old child, you've chosen to aim for the next closest target rather than place that blame where it belongs. Let that one sink in for a minute. That's what we're talking about, that's what the article is talking about. The immediate inclination is to place at least some kind of blame on the victim, or those in charge of the victim, instead of the people who committed the crimes. Why do you suppose that is?

That's what we mean by misogyny.

I am once again posting exhausted when I know I shouldn't be, so I can't gauge how much sense I'm making. Hopefully at least some. Anything that wasn't clear can be fixed in the morning.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #28)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 01:54 AM

30. I don't mind having this discussion. I welcome it.

Other posters on here are mad at me because I'm more focused on understanding how to prevent future incidents like this instead of looking on the right person to blame.

My view is that gender roles ARE cultural roles but that these gender roles cannot form without biological origins.
Every culture assigns different standards & roles to all the diverse expressions of humanity.
There are people of all types of shapes & sizes, all types of moods & temperaments, all types of strengths & weaknesses.

Fat people, thin people, muscular people, curvy people, short people, tall people, happy people, angry people, sad people, indifferent people, strong people, weak people, far-sighted people, near-sighted people, athletic people, scholarly people, extroverted people, introverted people, heterosexual people, homosexual people, bisexual people, try-sexual people...on & on forever.

With so many variations of the human design & human expression each culture picks favorites out of the types & promotes these types to be aspired to by all members of that society. The ones who don't fit the favored profiles get lesser regard for not fitting in.

In our culture, an amalgamation, descendant, & evolution of past cultures, if a man is not physically strong they are looked at as not manly.
If a man gets emotional easily, he will not be seen as manly.
If a woman tries to take charge & become the boss, she will not be seen as womanly.
If a woman forgoes having children, she will not be seen as womanly.

ALL members of any society goes through double standards.
All men are not physically strong & will never be strong. But they are still men.
All men do not suppress their emotions & can tear up at a sad movie. But they are still men.
All women don't take a backseat & take command of situations without any higher ups. But they are still women.
All women don't want to have kids. But they are still women.

Can men wear flowers in their hair without catching a bunch of grief for it?
Can a woman purposely shave off all of her hair without catching a bunch of grief for it?

That Sikh woman that was in the news a few days ago with the facial hair. Balpreet Kaur.
She was a woman who dared to go in public with facial hair. A light moustache & beard.
Women grow face hair. Men are KNOWN for having face hair more than women but women grow face hair too.
She just as much a woman as any other woman. She's not a lesbian or butch or none of that.
She's just a woman with a little scraggly on her face.

Now as much as women applaud her for standing her ground on her appearance how many of them will stop plucking & tweezing their OWN hairs?
Do they think they can be a woman with a little fuzz on their face or do they think it's "unhygenic"?
Will they go out on dates with fuzz on their face & not expect others to question them?
Will they expect to get many dates with fuzz on their face without challenge?
That everybody should just see them as a woman & that womanhood is not defined by the hair on their face.

And that statement is absolutely TRUE. Woman grow face hair too.
Women also go bald somewhat like men do. It's a little more evenly distributed & not as dramatic but women have baldness patterns like men.
What woman do you know feels good about going bald?
Just because you're bald doesn't make you unfeminine.
But will others come to that conclusion or is their a double standard on baldness in women & baldness in men?
Patrick Stewart can go bald & be considered the Sexiest Man Alive.
What woman can go bald & be considered the Sexiest Woman Alive?

I also believe that there should be gray-haired women anchors on TV.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
I don't think women should have to dye their hair & fake being 25 forever when they get older just to be on TV.
Gray hair doesn't make you unfeminine.

But speaking of that also think about the double standards about how someone says older people should dress.
Young women can wear flirty skin-bearing clothes.
When a woman is 45 should she be able to wear the same clothes that she did when she was 25?
Why not? Clothes are clothes, right?
So what if a woman who is 45 wants to wear provocative shorts that bare the thigh?
So what if a woman wears a tight T-shirt that accentuates her chest & torso?

A bunch of women will talk nasty about her & say "She knows she's too old to be wearing that! She should dress her age. She's a mother for goodness sake!"
What does that mean to "dress your age"?
How does wearing clothes like that inhibit your ability to be a mother?
Why is she "too old" to be wearing that?

Double standards are everywhere & are reinforced by men AND women ON men AND women.
If a woman stays a virgin until she's 35, it's acceptable. If a man stays a virgin, until he's 35 something's wrong with him.
That's why they made that movie The 40 Year Old Virgin & mocked guys like these.

Short men catch a lot of grief from women because many women look disparagingly on short-heighted men.
He could be responsible, thoughtful, respectful, financially successful but he's shorter than the woman.
He is discarded solely for that reason.
If he brings up the inequity they call it Short Man's Syndrome & mock him.
Reminds me when Black people talk about racism & they call it the Race Card.

No one owns the pain of double standards.
The man—better yet the ADULT who exploited & blackmailed this girl is the problem.
Lamenting the fact that she was pulled in by compliments on her beauty is futile.

This is biological programming.
If it wasn't there would be no Beauty Industry today.
WOMEN supply the beauty industry billions & billions of dollars every year & men don't even care about all of this stuff.
Women may THINK they're putting on makeup "for themselves" but the biological reason is so that they can attract males.
This is why women wear heels which make them walk in a certain way to make their legs attractive & push their butts out.
That's why women wear perfumes to give off unique odors that have an effect on the opposite sex.
That's why women's clothes are designed the way they are to show off a woman's figure.
This is why women are always changing their hair colors & hairstyles.

This is why men are always trying to get money & status & might.
Why men always seek high-paying jobs.
Why men have high ambition & try to be the leader of the pack.
Why men work out their muscles & show off their strength.
Why men go into the military & other uniformed services.

The Masculine is PROGRAMMED to attract the Feminine.
The Feminine is PROGRAMMED to attract the Masculine.

In Intersexed people like the Gays that dynamic still remains.
Even if the bodies are two males or two females there is a masculine component attracting a feminine component in both partners.

Masculine & Feminine is within us all. But we assigned certain traits & expression of humanity as Masculine & Feminine.
Then we tried to promote certain profiles of these traits that may have been expressed in one man or one woman of the time.
Would Michelle Robinson be attracted to Barack Obama if he strayed too far from the promoted gender roles?
She called him "a nerd" when she talked about first encountering him.
It was not until Obama showed off his basketballing skills with her brother that she warmed to him.
He showed his ability to weather competition & this is promoted as a favored masculine trait.

Genetic man & Genetic woman is biological reality but Social man & Social Woman is assigned by the culture.
Yet that Social role came from certain biological components expressed largely by one sex or another.

My little cousins who show off their dresses, makeup-filled faces & cutesy looks on Facebook trying to show off their attractiveness lets me know that you're barking up the wrong tree trying to stop girls from expressing themselves that way.
Girls like to show off their looks & boys like to show off their prowess.

The only thing you can do is direct it. Amanda Todd took a natural inclination of females that age & directed it at the wrong person.
The technology of our era is what we ultimately need to address because there will be many more Amanda Todds showing off for strangers on the internet I don't care how many girls you educate otherwise.
A few girls will be scared & make better choices. Others will be warned & risk it anyway.
The creeps are gonna be out there. We can make laws to make it more difficult for them to creep, sure.
But you better teach your girls how to deal with that dark side of that technology.

Girls want to show off their prettiness. They have done it from the beginning of time & will do it to the end of time.
Recognize biological reality & teach them how to express this more responsibly so that the creeps can't take advantage of their naïveté.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #30)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:47 AM

32. I am too ill to type out a response tonight

but I will say this: none of the examples you give are biological in origin. Every one of them are cultural, the result of the warping and twisting of the natural sex drive, not the drive itself. So we're back to what I was saying to begin with; the problem (and by extension the proper line of prevention) lies in the attitudes toward sexuality and violence that we are teaching our children, and that we have bought into ourselves.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #32)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 09:03 AM

33. Cultures were formed from environmental & biological settings

Yes cultures are like fashions.
They change & can BE changed.
But they didn't come out of nowhere.

There were certain traits of humanity that were promoted for any given reason (live in a mountain area, sturdy legs; live in flat plains with high grass, height).
And then that group devises a cultural code out of these particular trait trying to reproduce them.
Those who adhere to the traits are rewarded, those who don't adhere are demoted.
It then becomes tradition & that's how culture spreads.

Feminine is attracted to Masculine.
Masculine is attracted to Feminine.

Gender roles may be artificial but gender isn't.

Amanda Todd NEVER deserved to be harassed by her schoolmates.
Amanda Todd NEVER deserved to be assaulted & attacked physically by them.
Amanda Todd NEVER deserved to be blackmailed by an internet stalker.
Amanda Todd WAS NOT supposed to die & SHOULDN'T have felt she should die.

I'm angry at this death like you all are.
But I don't want to just dwell on my sadness & anger by itself.
I want to USE this anger to concoct a better solution so we don't have this crap happening anymore.

The case of Trayvon Martin.
When Geraldo said Trayvon shouldn't be wearing a hoodie in the rain, it was bullshit.
I can get mad all day long at George Zimmerman who did the deed & I have & will again.
I can get mad at the Sanford Police Dept. for their part in letting that man walk free for so long.

BUT let's look at the system that led to the incident & see if something can't be fixed there.
WHY was this guy allowed to continue to be Neighborhood Watch with his background?
Some knew him to be out of control & yet he was allowed to have this position.
The neighborhood watch code said he wasn't supposed to have a gun.
Why did he have a gun? And why wasn't that an immediate cause of suspicion when he was first encountered by Sanford PD?

I can sit here & try to say "People shouldn't be racist! They shouldn't stereotype people like that!"
And that's true but that doesn't solve the issue in the short term.
People have been preaching against racism forever & some people are just gonna refuse to change.
We gotta understand that racists are out here & when you have an unstable one like Zimmerman being put into a position of power, he's gonna take advantage of his position to play out his racist mentalities.

I don't like that girls get branded with Scarlet Letters over their sexuality. It's bullshit.
I can get mad all day at the kids who bullied Amanda Todd online & in person & I have.
I can get mad all day at the pervert who snapped pictures of her on webcam & then tried to blackmail her into posing for the cameras some more by threatening to expose the pics.
I'm mad enough to strangle guys like that!
In fact I wanna know if this sucker was charged & convicted with anything so he can't pull this shit again on another young girl.

BUT let's look at the system that led to the incident & see if something can't be fixed here.
Why is a 12 year old girl allowed such unfettered access to the internet in the first place?
Was this webcam thing done at her house or her friend's house?
Was she allowed to go online at will without supervision or did she sneak around her parents' back?
Did she receive any education about the dangers of the internet if she WAS allowed to go online?

Why is Web 2.0 so pervasive that one incident can follow a person no matter where they go?
Why aren't we concerned more about the current nature of the internet knowing that most kids have picture-taking, video-capturing internet-connected phones that can post on this Web 2.0 & spread info like a virus?
Why didn't the school intervene in the physical bullying from Amanda's classmates?
Why should a girl feel like she has to change schools because of the school's inept bully prevention policies?
What do you do about online bullying which may not happen on the school grounds?
Is the blackmailer behind bars? Is he charged with child pornography?
Is he still free victimizing other young girls who make the mistake of exposing themselves on webcam?

See I don't believe in anger without action.
But I also don't believe in unfocused action either.
I don't want people to say "Girls are being victimized on the internet! There should be a law that everyone's real name shows up online whereever they go!"
Sounds good but all that does is help bosses hold things against you for your political beliefs or your off-work actions or your familial relations.
Democratic Underground doesn't exist if everyone didn't have Anonymity to protect them from people who would use your non-harmful views & actions against you.
I don't want kneejerk dumb responses to tragedies like what led to the idiotic Three Strikes Law.
Like what led to locking away drug users like hardened criminals.
Like what led to Zero Tolerance policies that make no room for mercy.

Culture is changeable but biology is forever.
The details may change but the theme remains the same.
Cultures are just expressions of human nature.
And as hard as you may try you will never control how girls like to show off their looks to gain attention.
You will never control how boys like to show off their prowess to gain attention.

Alicia Keys dressed like a tomboy when she first came out.
Not long after she made it big here she goes dressed up all glamour girl style in dresses.
She felt she had to hide her femininity in the neighborhood she grew up in & now when she hit the big time she was free to go all girly-girly.
The details of how each culture expresses these things differ for sure. WIDELY differ in fact.
But the underlying reason stays exactly the same.

In a society that puts male over female, tomboy is more acceptable than sissy.
Some mothers would rather their girls not be tomboy but are TERRIFIED if their boys become sissies.
The double standard is not ONLY enforced by men.
When a man can walk into a job interview wearing a skirt & not calling it a kilt & get hired then that double standard will be defeated.

Young girls having sex are called sluts, young boys having sex are called studs.
35 year old women who have not had sex are said to be waiting for the right one.
35 year old men who have not had sex are called weirdos or gay.

But why is it like this?
Biology.
Think about it.
An Extinction Level Event where only 11 people remain on Earth.
In the first scenario you have 10 men & 1 woman.
In the second scenario you have 10 women & 1 man.
They have to repopulate the Earth with these 11 people.

First scenario the 1 woman has sex with the 10 men to make a baby.
Nine months later she has the baby & now there are 12 people on Planet Earth.
Maybe she has twins, triplets, quadruplets & so on.
If so there would be 13, 14, 15 people on Earth.
Minimum 1 extra human being every 9 months.

Second scenario the 1 man has sex with the 10 women to make a baby.
Nine months later the women each have their babies & now there are 21 people on Planet Earth.
Maybe they have twins, triplets, quadruplets & so on.
If so there would be 31, 41, 51 people on Earth.
Minimum 10 extra human beings every 9 months.

Look at how this pattern looks from both scenarios:
1st scenario (10 men, 1 woman): 11 ~ 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
2nd scenario (10 women, 1 man): 11 ~ 21, 31, 41, 51, 61, 71, 81, 91

This made men more expendable since they can drop sperm very easily to spark life.
They send men to wars & dangerous pursuits since the world doesn't need as many men to reboot life.
This made women more protected since carrying a baby to birth is very hard to spark life.
They say women & children first on ships since the world needs many women to reboot life.

Still don't think there's a biological underline to cultural practices?

Yet they want healthy well-adjusted children to populate the world so they look down on young women having babies before they're ready to take care of them.
The woman brings the child into the world. The woman nurses the child from her breast.
This is why so many cultures control female sexuality.
This is why governments will ALWAYS be trying to steer how human beings reproduce with marriage laws & such (see replacement rate).
This is why some people freak out about gays & lesbians & such because they think that will lead to a domino effect of less children.
This is why people feared women in the workplace because they believed it takes away from men having positions to play the provider role set by society & steers women away from a life of motherhood & family.

And because of the biological reason of menopause, women only have a certain amount of time to have a healthy baby.

At work, women ask me if I want any kids. I have no kids right now.
I told them I have my whole life to have kids.
I told them my paternal grandfather, my daddy's daddy, was born in 1897!
My dad was born in the 1940s!
There's a documented world record of a 90 year old man in India having a baby by his much younger wife.
Tony Randall from the Odd Couple had a child with his younger wife at the age of 77!
Men are made differently & have different attitudes towards life than women.
When women ask me about having a baby, they're talking from their biological perspective.
They have a time limit. Thus their approach to mating is totally different from men's.
Men don't have a time limit outside of death. Thus their approach to mating is totally different from women's.
Men's method of creating life is different than women's method of creating life.
Men drop seed & go. Lickety split. Women carry that seed for 9 months with it transforming their body tremendously & go through great pains delivering it. LONG TIME.

Biology influences identity which influences culture which influences lifeviews.
Environment of the natural kind, of the social kind add extra influence to those biologies, identities, cultures & lifeviews.

Can we influence our cultures? Sure. It happens all the time. It's happening right now.
But understand that these things come from biology at the root.
Even racism has a biological component. 'Us vs. Them' is also a survival trait.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #33)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:31 PM

37. I'm beginning to think you might be in the wrong place

Once again, you're pointing to things as biological that are not based in biology, but in human departures from biology. You've also wandered so far off topic that parts of your post aren't even connecting to the issue being discussed, and your solution for the topic under discussion is "Don't dress like a slut" reworked for the Internet: don't make any mistakes on the Internet, child, or you will be ruined forever!- best to just stay off it completely. You've missed the fact that there IS no real short-term solution, only short-term band-aids; the only solution that will work is the long-term one of putting social attitudes toward sexuality back where they belong.

The Mosuo in China have a sex culture anchored much more closely to human biology. The suicide rate among their teenagers is zero. They don't have these problems. Western culture, with its emphasis on monogamy and disgust for female sexuality, has created and maintained these problems. This "biological" urge to preen and flirt is a response to that CULTURAL (and unnatural) attitude- girls raised to believe they have to pick just one perfect mate for a lifetime, and then must be to that perfect mate all of the hundred or so women he would have otherwise been with in the course of his life, will tie themselves into knots trying to make themselves appear worth that tradeoff. This breeds a fierce competitive environment for resources that aren't actually scarce, and feeds multibillion dollar industries for clothing, cosmetics, surgery and diet while these poor girls try to make themselves into that hundred different women- all the while repressing their own biological urges that tell them to mate with as many as possible, and believing the carefully taught lie that those urges are dirty and unnatural. That isn't biology, as I said- it's the result of a cultural warping of biology and it's done nothing but harm. THAT is the problem and THAT is what has to be fixed. All the "don't dress like a slut, don't drink with strange men, don't post pictures on the Internet" warnings aren't going to help fix that underlying problem one iota, because they're targeting the symptoms, not the disease.

And they don't make anyone safer. You yourself have pointed out that this is going to happen anyway. Why not fix the actual problem instead?

May I respectfully suggest that if this conversation is going to continue, we do it in a different thread? This is starting to break away from the subject of Amanda Todd, which is what the thread was intended for.


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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #37)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 09:05 PM

45. Misunderstandings here. Listen to what I say

I'm not saying that the girls being called sluts is RIGHT.
I'm just stating the current cultural view. Of that & a lot of other double standards in this society.
Just stating them not condoning them.
I said this stuff can change because cultures can change.
American culture has changed tremendously in just 100 years.
Remember I said that I don't think girls should be branded with Scarlet Letters over their sexuality.

I'm gonna compare Amanda Todd to Trayvon Martin again.
Trayvon was just walking down the street coming back from the store.
He was 17 years old & it was 7PM. He was minding his business & wasn't seeking out trouble.
I don't talk about the nature of the neighborhood's streets he walked on as something to be addressed.
It was all George Zimmerman's irresponsible views & actions that caused that tragedy.

Amanda was flashing her breasts at a grown man in a webcam chat.
She was 12 years old & unsupervised. Young girls like this shouldn't be showing their breasts to grown strangers on the internet because of the reality of creepy pedophiles & stalkers who may exploit her youthful naïveté.
I DO talk about the nature of the current internet's Web 2.0 status as something to be addressed.
It was that blackmailing stalker's fault AND the school bullies' fault that caused that tragedy...
...and all because of the increasingly seamless nature of Web 2.0 which both parties exploited to traumatize that girl.

Slight difference in those cases.
12 year old girls should not be online doing stuff like that.
They're not adults & they don't understand the ramifications of their actions.
The aftereffects of her actions were NOT right but it's the same thing as that guy who went past the fence to get a closer look at the chimpanzees.
That boundary was meant to protect you because chimps can be dangerous to human beings.
That boundary was meant to protect girls like Amanda because internet stalkers can be dangerous to young girls.

The neighborhood streets Trayvon walked on don't need to be addressed because Trayvon did what was proper: just walked down the street & minded his business.
The internet's Web 2.0 nature Amanda flashed on DOES need to be address because Amanda did what was NOT proper: flashed at grown strangers on the internet even though she was a child.

Her flash does NOT give her stalker the right to blackmail her with exposing the pics so she can put on a show.
Her flash does NOT give those kids the right to bully her online & in person to shame her & ostracize her.
But that's why you don't cross that boundary. It opens up a can of worms. It opens up a Pandora's Box you're not prepared for.

No matter how you put it Masculine is designed to attract Feminine & Feminine is designed to attract Masculine.
It may play out in different ways but the theme remains the same.
You think it's unnatural that girls flirt & preen.
I think it's just one of the many ways that the Masculine-Feminine connection takes root.
We try to stop teen pregnancy but biologically this is when boys & girls have the most potentially healthiest babies.
As opposed to men & women over 45.
When kids CAN make babies they usually WILL.
The flirting & preening is that drive expressing itself.
Problem is it can be directed at the wrong people.

And speaking about this biology thing.
Do you REALLY think the Mosuo in China don't have a culture determining how they act sexually?
ALL people have cultures & ALL cultures influence their interactions.

I stick to my point that cultures come out of biology.
I know that biology determines identity.
And that identity determines culture.
And that culture determines lifeviews/political views.

Every culture assigns the totality of human traits differently because each environment is different & has different needs.
Many Native American nations have the notion of Two-Spirit when it comes to Intersexed people like the Gays.
They didn't shun 'em & treat them as dirt. They saw it as just another variation & they were accepted in those cultures.
Puritan culture treats Gays like the plague & they see them as an abomination not a variation.

Both of those views if you take them back to their origins always came down to a biological cause.
These biologies were just interpreted differently with one treated positively & the other treated negatively.

You can't dispute my Extinction Level Event example of what may have set gender roles like they are in so many societies.
Yeah I would love to talk further about this biology-culture connection thing in another thread.
I'll start it tomorrow & let you know.
I'll see you tomorrow, LadyHawkAZ.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #45)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 09:28 PM

46. I'll watch for it then

and thank you for moving it out of this thread.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 10:14 AM

55. Here it is LadyHawkAZ

Biology forms Identity. Identity forms Culture. Culture forms Politics.

Can't wait to hear from you on this one.
Invite your friends!
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #45)

Wed Oct 17, 2012, 03:57 PM

50. "No matter how you put it Masculine is designed to attract Feminine & Feminine is designed to

attract Masculine."

"I know that biology determines identity.
And that identity determines culture.
And that culture determines lifeviews/political views."


"You can't dispute my Extinction Level Event example of what may have set gender roles like they are in so many societies."


That's amazing. You're sooooo lucky.

I don't believe I really know anything. But sometimes, I encounter new information that I believe may be true, and I rearrange because of it.




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Response to Zorra (Reply #50)

Wed Oct 17, 2012, 06:05 PM

51. I'll invite you to that thread me & LadyHawkAZ will talk in

Isn't the whole thing about gay people talking about it not being a choice but being part of their biology to be gay?
That it is inborn? That it is NOT merely a decision on their part to be gay?

Their biological controls (hormone set, brain design, etc.) cause them to be attracted to the same physical sex.
That's biology determining identity.
They grew up knowing they were different from the other boys or the other girls.

But even in gay people there are Masculine components & Feminine components.
In 2 women or 2 men, there is something masculine in one being drawn to something feminine in the other one.
There's a mental sexuality too. Or if you wanna get all supernatural a spiritual sexuality too.

It's the YinYang symbol. There's a little boy in every girl & a little girl in every boy.
With gay people/bi people/trans people it's just a little more pronounced.

If you biology determines that you grow up tall—6' 5" tall where you look over everybody's heads, you will see & approach the world differently...
...than another person whose biology determined him/her to grow 5' 3" where he/she has to struggle to look above the crowd.

Female physiology is different than male physiology & that alone makes women & men see the world in different ways.
Introverted temperaments are different than extroverted temperaments & that makes the two type of people see the world in different ways.
Your temperament is determined by your brain wiring/hormone configurations.

Yes I'll say it again & I'll say it with CERTAINTY.
Biology determines identity.
And from identity cultures form & politics form.

I also know that Erykah Badu song that says "The man who knows some things knows that he knows nothing at all".
One of my favorite songs from one of my favorite singers.
There is much I do not know but this ain't one of 'em.
Truth is not owned by anybody & I am merely one of many conduits to deliver truth.

Truth is Independent of the Speaker.

Test my statement out in your daily life & see if it's true.

A person that you know who loves cold weather vs. a person you know who loves warm weather.
A person who's allergic to pollen vs. a person who is not allergic.
A person who's wider & fatter vs. a person who's thinner & slimmer.
A person who's very tall vs. a person who's very short.
A person who's busty vs. a person who's flat-chested.
A Black person in the sun vs. a White person in the sun.
A person who never seems to get sick or hurt vs. a person who suffers from many ailments & injuries.
A boisterous person vs. a reserved person.

Just check through as many types of people you can & think about how their biological build & design shaped the way they interact with the world.
John Lucas

P.S.: When I start that new thread, I'll re-example my Extinction Level Event scenario. I really believe this is how so many cultures formed the way they did in regards to gender roles.

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #51)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 12:09 AM

52. John? Please, consider that you are a man, making repeated, assertive, absolute statements to a

group comprised mostly of feminists, most likely primarily women.

A man, telling us that you have some type of absolute knowledge, and are some type of conduit that is channeling absolute truths, and that we should listen to what you say because (you appear to believe) that you know so much more than we do.

The thing is, a whole lot of men, whole fucking violently insane patriarchal societies full of them, all over this planet, have been telling us all the shit that we poor helpless women must understand, and believe, forever, because, it is, of course, the absolute truth ~ the indisputable natural order of things, that men are superior to women, and, therefore, intrinsically know so much more than we poor biologically inferior beings are capable of.

And much (most) of the time, they've been terribly, tragically wrong, probably because they are so convinced of their innate superiority, and the total complete accuracy of their perceptions and judgments, that they fail to consider that their perceptual abilities and knowledge bases are fragmented and overwhelmingly ego-subjective, and therefore, their absolute judgments are derived from incomplete relative information.

Absolute woo.

Men have been telling women about their absolute truths, maybe since the dawn of humankind. I don't know; despite all this remarkable absolute truth, people are still killing each other, babies are still going hungry, kids are still being bullied to suicide, women are still being raped, etc.

Personally, I've had more than enough of this absolute truth in my lifetime as dictated to me by the gatekeepers of the patriarchal collective consciousness, and I pretty much couldn't care less about these marvelous truths these days. My intuition and experiences tell me these truths are not so absolute at all. Does biology determine identity? Maybe, more or less, relative to each individual. Does identity determine culture? Maybe, more or less, relative to each culture.

Maybe....maybe. I don't know.

Consider the possibility that change is constant. Consider the possibility that the processes of the universe, forces of natural selection, evolution, or whatever, have already led to the development of rapidly evolving beings on this planet who naturally transcend what were previously believed to be the biological boundaries of any life forms, including the biological limits that you appear to place on "identity".

Who knows?

All I know is what appears to be real for me, and I'm not sure about that, either ~ because that's constantly changing ~ but one of the primary aspects of my reality is actively working on several fronts to eliminate this widespread hatred that drives bullies to inflict pain and suffering on others, and causes children to take their own lives.

And it appears to me that the overwhelming majority of this hatred, and subsequent oppression, of women, and LGBT folk at the very least, is being perpetuated and manifested primarily by many of those who are 100% positive that they know the absolute truth.

IMO, things change, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and things are not always what they appear to be.

Thank you for your kind, tentative invitation to participate in your thread, but I don't believe I'll be able to make it.

Best wishes.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 08:09 AM

53. Oh so just because it comes from a man, it's to be discarded?

I said right there that I am just one conduit of truth out of many.
There's things I know. There's things you know.
But if you can't get over this grudge that whenever a man makes a point he's supposedly bludgeoning you with his patriarchy you won't find truth.

Test my statements. DON'T take my word for it.
Test them. I welcome doubt.
Truth is independent of the speaker.

Feminists need thicker skins if this is how feminists discuss things.
So what if it comes from a man. I said no one owns truth & that goes for men AND women.

Here's something to know: The sun is hot.
Do we have to act like we don't know that fact just because we don't know everything about the sun?

Get over the grudge with men. We're not all your enemies for God's sake.
John Lucas

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Response to johnlucas (Reply #53)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 02:43 PM

58. LOL! Oh, my. No,

it's only the authoritarian men who tell me in absolute statements what is true about who, how, what, and why, I am, what I need, and what I need to do, that I have serious problems with.

Rather than assuming that I have a grudge with men, I suggest that you study as much of the history of the relationships between men and women as you possibly can, and try to empathize, put yourself in the place of women, all during that history.

I cannot test your personal assessments. I can neither prove, nor disprove them. And I don't care to, or need to, try. Anthropology is a very inexact practice, based largely on subjective assumptions and incomplete information, as your assessments of being and culture are based on subjective assumptions and incomplete information.

I'm an LGBT woman. I've been contemplating and gathering information about these issues for most of my life. The theoretical assumptions you are positing as absolute truths here, these things you claim to know, are nothing new to me, and probably nothing new to many of the feminists posting in the various feminist forums here at DU.

Here's a nutshell, similar version of the theory:

Men are generally physically stronger than women. In the distant past authoritarian men dominated women with brute force because of superior strength. Authoritarian, disingenuous men (priests) claimed supernatural knowledge so they could subjugate gullible populations, instituting patriarchal religions. Subsequently cultures grew from these religions, cultures in which women were relegated to inferior status through force. The inferior status of women, and, relative to this misogyny, LGBT persons, became institutionalized in the collective consciousness. These religions/cultures spread, and have been perpetuated, as has institutionalized misogyny and homophobia. So here we are, stuck in a self-perpetuating, pathetic, dumbass illusion.

Is this true? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe partially.

American Psychological Association: The Sexualization of Girls

Sexism

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Response to Zorra (Reply #58)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 08:47 PM

59. I touch on the control of female sexaulity & homophobia in that thread I made for LadyHawkAZ

I actually touch on theories of how female sexuality was controlled & how homophobia may have formed in that separate thread I made for LadyHawkAZ. I touch on those very 2 issues you talk about.

Biology forms Identity. Identity forms Culture. Culture forms Politics.

I make a point that a biological difference created an identity which became a culture & political belief system.
I mention how gays' role in society may have been decided in 2 cultures.
The inclusive Two-Spirit view of some Native American cultures.
And the exclusive Abomination view of Puritan-based American culture.
I also mention the exalting Godly view of other cultures where gays are revered.

I use my Extinction Level Event example to show how the biological nature female pregnancy created an identity of protector from the males who were just laying around.
How this protector role evolved into a controlling role since protecting pregnant women from predators meant controlling the environment.
Then how men got consumed with this controlling role until women were devalued with their value only coming by proxy based on their biological function of delivering babies. It became a culture of controlling female sexuality.
Then come the political views that women were lesser than men.

My statements CAN be tested & I WANT them to be tested.
I don't expect people to just take my word for it.
I use an example of the biological nature of short people & tall people causes them to see the world in totally different ways.

Alright you hate my use of the word "know"?
Well then I'll say I have a VERY STRONG theory that this is true.
Read my thread & let's discuss it.
John Lucas

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Response to Zorra (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 01:47 PM

56. Zorra?

You rock.

Awsome reply.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 01:55 PM

16. In wake of Amanda Todd suicide, House of Commons to debate anti-bullying bill

In wake of Amanda Todd suicide, House of Commons to debate anti-bullying bill

CTVNews.ca Staff
Published Sunday, Oct. 14, 2012 1:20PM EDT
Last Updated Sunday, Oct. 14, 2012 1:41PM EDT

As Canadians debate the right response to a case of cyber bullying that may have pushed B.C. teenager Amanda Todd to take her own life, lawmakers will consider a private members bill that seeks to lay the groundwork for a national bullying prevention strategy in the House of Commons Monday. But the father of a teen who took his own life because of bullying says it’s time for action, not another study.

NDP MP Dany Morin will introduce the bill aimed at building an all-party committee of MPs to study the prevalence of bullying and help build a framework for a national anti-bullying strategy.

...

“There is a time for action now, instead of another study or anything like that,” he said. “We have a definition of bullying. We already know a lot of the resources that can help bullying. But the frontline resources that will help these kids when they need it most, at that moment they’re about to make that decision, they are underfunded. That’s where we need to put our energies and our efforts.”

Hubley’s son, Jamie, committed suicide at the age of 15. Jamie, who was openly gay, was bullied for years and fought depression.

...

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/in-wake-of-amanda-todd-suicide-house-of-commons-to-debate-anti-bullying-bill-1.995254

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:02 PM

17. Amanda Todd still a target of vile online abuse - on FB page set up in memory of teen 'found hanged

Unbelievable!

Amanda Todd still a target of vile online abuse - on Facebook page set up in memory of teen 'found hanged' who suffered from cyber bullying

Amanda Todd, the 15-year-old hanged herself after being tormented by cyber bullies, is still being targeted


Her apparent suicide sparked worldwide revulsion when it emerged that it came just weeks after she posted a harrowing video on YouTube telling of her battle with internet bullies.

But it has now been revealed that the sickening attacks are continuing, with Facebook pages set up in Amanda’s memory being defaced with hateful messages and images.



One picture shows the silhouette of a female body hanging dead along with the mocking phrase: “Todding.”

Other commenters said she deserved the negative attention that she’d received from bullies after having a topless photo posted online when she was at school.



This same topless photo was also re-posted to two “R.I.P. Amanda Todd” Facebook pages, which as of Saturday night had almost one million 'likes' between them.

...

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/amanda-todd-facebook-page-set-1378930

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Response to Catherina (Reply #17)

Mon Oct 15, 2012, 10:11 PM

25. This is how people are on the internet. That's why I talked about preventive techniques

You got mad at me because I didn't just cry out "They shouldn't be doing this to her!"
OF COURSE that's the truth.
But this internet world, man, it's really really sick sometimes.

Kids don't grasp that reality until it's too late.
Some ADULTS don't grasp that reality until it's too late.

I had internet stalkers before.
They put my name into stuff I didn't even do & tried to shame me from a forum.
Tried to dig up my personal information & blast it everywhere.
Oh some other woman they tried to personally call her job & get her fired after digging up her information.
All this because they couldn't debate & tried intimidation tactics to silence the debaters they couldn't beat.
I knew I had to weather them & not let them intimidate me.

I knew it was a tool I would need in this internet world.
I looked at it like I was in a revolution protesting a police state.
Crying "it's not right" & "they shouldn't do this" is not enough.
We know it's not right & we know they shouldn't do this.
But they ARE doing what's not right & they ARE doing this.

Do you try to go after every single faceless person who posts a mean-spirited comment in on a internet board?
Or do you use this as an opportunity to teach kids smarter use of the internet?

Another poster in this thread got mad at me because I said that her highlighting this for kids will only stop a few of them from the dangers of the internet.
Since when do kids heed warnings from their parents?
How many of you all here stayed away from drinking & smoking from what some authority figure told you?
Teens make mistakes even when they were shown & told better.
Doesn't mean you don't keep showing & telling them but sometimes kids just have to bump their heads first to get a understanding.

A few kids heed the warnings, most kids take chances despite the warnings.
Some kids who took chances may come out unscathed, the others come out scathed.

I don't know how it's really possible right now with all the pic/vid recording, internet-connected smartphones around.
Best bet is have your kids know how to deal with the dark side of the internet.
You can't realistically keep them from it. They got internet at the library too.
John Lucas

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:09 PM

18. It just gets worse :(

Tormenters target Amanda Todd’s online memorials amid police probe

...

More than 20 full-time investigators are working on the case, conducting interviews, scouring social media and reviewing contributing factors into Todd’s death, police said.

...

While more than 475,000 Facebook users had “liked” Todd’s memorial page on the social media website by Saturday evening, strangers and even former classmates interrupted the condolences to post vile comments and images.

Posts include one, by a woman who identified herself as Todd’s classmate, who wrote: “I’m so happy she’s dead now.”

...

“I am finding now that young women are contacting us and are extremely upset with what they are seeing on social media sites,” said Thiessen.

...

The same images have resurfaced on the Facebook memorial pages dedicated to the teen, with one individual even adding “laugh out loud, end the search.”

....

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/tormenters-target-amanda-todd-s-online-memorials-amid-police-probe-1.994594#ixzz29IXqlXSO


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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 02:15 PM

19. 'It got traced to somebody in the United States'

'I'm constantly crying now.'

'Everyday I think, why am I still here. My anxiety is horrible now, never went out this summer.'

'Nothing is left of me now. I have nobody. I need someone.'


The man who originally contacted Amanda on her webcam attempted to blackmail her with the image, and when she rejected his sexual advances he created a Facebook page with a screen-grab of their chat as its profile picture.

Amanda's mother Carol, a teacher in the local area, reportedly told the Vancouver Sun that police had told her the man lived in the US.

'Police investigated and investigated,' she is quoted as saying. 'It got traced to somebody in the United States. But they never found him. Those people are very good at hiding their tracks.'

Sgt Thiessen told journalists up to 25 full-time investigators were dealing with Amanda's case, and that more than 400 leads were being investigated.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/914987-amanda-todd-police-to-probe-bullying-and-trolls-after-teenagers-suicide

Find this pederast and hang him high.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 01:36 AM

29. It just gets worse and worse

Apparently this was the 4chan guys (an immature sublevel of Anonymous hackers that hangs out on sites google can't index) getting their "lulz" (sick laughs).

Amanda Todd isn't the only girl they've been doing this too, she may not even be the first suicide from it either but she's the first one we know about. Lulz was discussed in a NYT article a few years ago when they pushed a young boy to suicide and spent months laughing about it. I can't find the article right now but if you google them, it's all out there.

So I'm not combing through their "Capper Awards" videos on youtube and they're beyond disturbing. "Camsite of the year", "shocker of the year", "Blackmailer of the year" and then allegedly Amanda at 01:26 as "Most Annoying of the Year".


Some Anon members are furious and are exposing Amanda's tormentor as someone named Kody1206. Other alleged Anon members such as the sicko who posts as AnonCentral on Tumbler write that Amanda deserved what she got and that "you all can stop your bitching about this dead girl" and that "people who are giving her sympathy and pity should all be ashamed of yourselves" and how
"We should be talking about the ones who were bullied and managed to survive through it all. The success stories. Because that’s what gives kids hope, the ones who know what it’s like to be in their shoes. The ones who have walked that road before and came out ok."


Don't expect this video to make much sense to you, but Amanda is briefly featured and so are some other young girls.

2010 Capper Awards Results

at 11:58, the scheme to "sextort" is explained as these sickos make fun of a Chan 11 news show that exposed them.

at 15:10 "It's not blackmail, it's an art form. To be able to control someone to the (missing words) to do anything takes skill" (4chan member Perso)

at 16:41 you can see a girl crying, her father yelling at the webcam.

Pedophile michael1892 "you wanna see my cock" needs to be found and arrested. He's awarded "Hero of the Year" by the sick Lulz crowd.

Awards are given for being "dogs" "camwhores" "Cock-tease" and wishes for "Happy Hunting" before pics of young female victims who got the monthly awards scroll past. I've watched three videos so far, one girl looked no older than 10. I'm sick to my stomach.

I'm going through several of their videos now, including one where Amanda was featured rather prominently. Here's a quote from one of the heroes on the video I'm watching now "If your a straight guy and your saying you DONT find young teenage girls sexually attractive, your either a queer or a liar" (sic) oh and Chris Hansen is a "faggot" for busting pedophiles and as a present for Chris, they show a young girl who was manipulated to play with her period blood and promise to find an even younger one for him before wishing sick perverts "Happy Hunting".


The Daily Capper - Week of December 19,2010


(oh yeah, that's poor Amanda in the video still)


Here are some comments from the first video:


For everyone that is mad about Perso blackmailing girls do something about it. Send an anonymous tip to Law Enforcement? about places that he can be found. i know that many of you have inside information about him.You have blood on your hands if some girl takes her life because you were afraid to stand up to him. Everyday on the news I am hearing about a child porn guy taking his life,because of the guilt that he has on his soul. that may be Persos fate eventually when he gets caught.

xboxxps3 1 year ago



Kody? had one victim with minimal damage. Perso, on the other hand, has victimized many and left trauma and terror in his wake. If anyone deserves a slow painful death, it's Perso.

whiteknightcat in reply to xboxxps3 (Show the comment) 1 year ago


The problem with Blogtv is the mods kick the girl who flashes, but not the cappers, and blackmailers. I use to be one of the most hated heros on? Blogtv. People said that I was the biggest hero at the time and wanted me dead. I left BlogTV since the mods didn't seem to care about what goes on. One person even emailed me saying that he hopes that someone kills me. Blogtv may have a lot of people that show, but I prevented a lot of recording from happening.

xboxxps3 1 year ago


Totally agree with you on this one. Unfortunately, BlogTV and other sites have legal issues to deal with, so they can't just go and block or de-activate creeps. There are two major problems with BlogTV. First, they rely on the users, teens who don't know what the hell they're getting into, to self-regulate and manage their own chats. That's like telling your kid to go play in the freeway, but to be careful and? watch out for the cars!

whiteknightcat in reply to xboxxps3 (Show the comment) 1 year ago


Viper you did the right thing by telling Peyton the truth about your age.

Perso you are a fool and a loser.? everyone who is a hero and capper hates you.

Peyton if you read this I am sorry that these sick people from dailycapper and kody1206 got off on watching you. they are the bad people not you. kody1206 you are just a script kiddie from hack forums. you are a big loser for recording Peyton.

burn in hell Kody! shame on you pervs lying about your age to see blogtv junior

xboxxps3 1 year ago


I really don't want to get sicker than I am, but it seems the person behind these Capper Awards and wishing the pederasts "Happy Hunting" is a woman.

* ~ * ~ * ~

It's so sick. The poor girl is dead and people are still bullying her, posting her flashing pics (they're not even that bad), making bleach jokes, saying she was a slut who deserved to day, WTF IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?

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Response to Catherina (Reply #29)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:43 PM

38. The problem with an Anonymous organization

is that any asshole can anonymously claim membership. For some reason they don't police their own as strictly as they used to.

Those participating in or supporting #OpSafeKids are beyond furious, but again, it's hard to tell who's real Anon and who's just along for the ride.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #38)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:47 PM

39. Totally agreed

I wish they would police better. Meanwhile I've sent that AnonCentral Tumbler to every Anon on my Occupy twitter list.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #38)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 06:33 PM

43. They're doing some policing today

ag3nt47 Aиσиумσυѕ☒Hιтмαη
According to anons on IRC @Anon_Central is suspended due to links related to Amanda Todd's autopsy pictures #Anonymous
17 hours ago Reply Retweet Favorite 10

The seized a couple very distasteful twitter accounts too. This dweeb posted fake autopsy pictures of her so Anon just seized his twitter account: http://twitter.com/shuxbro

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Response to Catherina (Reply #43)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 07:22 PM

44. About time n/t

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Response to Catherina (Reply #43)

Thu Oct 18, 2012, 02:01 PM

57. Good...about time they did some fucking self-policing

Reddit is in need of a housecleaning, too

http://gawker.com/5951987/

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Response to Catherina (Reply #29)

Wed Oct 17, 2012, 06:45 AM

47. huh? 4chan IS "anonymous"

 

not that "anonymous" even exists.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:59 AM

31. This is seriously depressing

Last edited Tue Oct 16, 2012, 02:59 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm researching this and just getting more depressed.

Ijust watched the following video (an excerpt of which was featured in the Capper Awards above) and it's depressing as all hell.

The Case of Jessie Slaughter (US)

Jessie Slaughter, real name Jessica Leonhardt and formerly known as KerliGirl13(1) on YouTube, is a Florida teenager whose attention-seeking behaviors in her YouTube videos caused her to become the target of a 4chan raid, resulting in a rage-fueled and ill-advised retort from her father that became the subject of image macros and remix videos. As a result, a police investigation was initiated by the local sheriff’s department to supposedly track down the pranksters.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/trolling




^^ This child was 11 years old ^^

The comments are so disturbing they just stun and pain the soul:

Rape her Derp. Then kill her father, and all of her family. Take their pubes and put them in a sorry cake, and force feed it to her. Then tell her about her family that are all dead, while having a smile. She'll probably cry- slap her in the face. Then rape her again.

ManLikeKami in reply to Derp Herp (Show the comment) 2 days ago


Tell to your daughter that she's a internet bicth.

TheBarbarossatube 2 weeks ago


Cyberbullying was invented by over sensitive little girls that take the internet seriously.

I just can't feel sorry for people that start to cry over someone bullying them over the internet.

Squandarlo 2 weeks ago


She's a dumb, spoiled, selfish bitch who manipulates people with crying and emotions.

Ash Williams 1 month ago 2



she's a freshman at my school. ideas?

Derp Herp 1 month ago 7

I really hope you're serious.

Do everything to her.

HitStickProductions in reply to Derp Herp 1 month ago 2


Whore, Slut, Cunt. Loser!!! >

ShinyMew151 4 weeks ago


and those were just from the first few pages!!!

And further down the page...

The Case of Amanda Cumming (US)

Amanda Cummings was a teenager who was reported dead after throwing herself in front of a city bus in December of 2011. The news of her death became a cyberbullying controversy after her Facebook memorial page “R.I.P. Amanda Cummings” was vandalized with offensive comments on the wall.


AMANDA CUMMINGS:



By COLLEEN CURRY
Jan. 4, 2012

Bullying played a part in the death of a 15-year-old girl from New York's Staten Island who walked in front of an oncoming bus with a suicide note in her pocket, according to her relatives.

Amanda Cummings, a sophomore at New Dorp High School, wrote Facebook messages in the weeks before her death that her realtives said showed a distressed girl crying out for help. Cummings died Monday from injuries sustained in the bus crash on Dec. 27.

Her uncle, Keith Cummings, told ABC-owned station WABC that bullying contributed to her suicide.

"Amanda begged her mother not to say anything for the simple fact that she'd be picked on more, or they'd make fun of her more," Cummings said.

....

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/staten-island-teen-bullied-suicide-family/story?id=15287910#.UH0DzYayjTc
http://abcnews.go.com/US/staten-island-teen-bullied-suicide-family/story?id=15287910

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Response to Catherina (Reply #31)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:03 PM

61. How fucking sick and tragic. I cannot believe this.

It's just so sad. The poor girl. I cannot believe people can be so cruel.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #61)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 10:22 PM

63. It's very hard to believe.

But the evidence is all around us, every single hour of every single day

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:54 PM

40. Man fired for posting negative comments on Amanda Todd's memorial page

Man fired for posting negative comments on Amanda Todd's memorial page

...

Calgary mother Christine Claveau saw a derogatory posting on Todd’s memorial Facebook page, and made it her mission to track down the person who wrote it.

“I just saw all these hateful comments, outrageous things, tormenting her after her passing,” Claveau said. “This one gentleman said something that just triggered something in me.”

So, she found out where he worked, and e-mailed his employer, Grafton-Fraser, about the incident. The Toronto-based menswear chain took immediate action and fired him.

In an e-mail to Global News, Dave McGregor, president and CEO of Grafton-Fraser said, “The individual in question was a part-time employee of our company and we took appropriate and justifiable action. Our company ethics are based on tolerance, respect and fair and honourable treatment of all individuals, internally, with our customers and the population as a whole.

We have zero tolerance for mistreatment of others no matter what form it takes.”

...

http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/man+fired+for+posting+negative+comments+on+amanda+todds+memorial+page/6442734156/story.html

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 04:52 PM

41. Two of her tormentors have been named

and there's a third one I just sent the police information about because he's posting pictures of her boobs on her tribute videos AND on her grieving brother's youtube account. The username of this human filth is "AmandaToddIsAWhore".

The first tormentor who was identified by Anonymous already has a criminal record consisting of one case of assault and one case of sexually interfering with a minor under 16. The record can be found as the cover image of this Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/KodyMaxsonWillDie << This page was set up by some Anons who just announced they'll be taking the page down at 11pm tonight.

This whole thing is spinning out of control because the authorities can't move fast enough and people are taking matters into their own hands.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #41)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:04 PM

62. As far as I am concerned, her tormenters should be shot.

What sickening little pigs.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #62)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 10:25 PM

64. I updated the original since the first video link is no longer working

You don't even want to know what I think should happen to such pigs.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Oct 16, 2012, 05:35 PM

42. One alleged tormentor was in court yesterday on charges of sexually interfering with another minor



A man accused by the hacker-activist group Anonymous of bullying Amanda Todd is approached by CTV News reporter Lisa Rossington. Oct. 15, 2012.

(http://motleynews.net/2012/10/16/has-amanada-todds-online-extortionist-turned-himself-in/)





Since this is public record, I hope it's ok if I post this. If not, please let me know and I'll edit.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Mar 8, 2013, 08:49 AM

65. Just found this thread...

Heartbreaking. So depressing. So disturbing. Fuck teen bullying.

RIP Amanda.

TYY

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:17 PM

66. Bumping your thread Catherina, because at least a bit of justice for Amanda has begun.

CTVNews.ca Staff
Published Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:50PM EDT
Last Updated Thursday, April 17, 2014 9:00PM EDT

A Dutch man is facing extortion and child pornography charges in connection with the online bullying case of British Columbia teenager Amanda Todd, who died by suicide in 2012.

The Coquitlam RCMP confirmed Thursday that a 35-year-old Dutch citizen was arrested in the Netherlands in January. He is facing a number of charges, including extortion, internet luring, criminal harassment and possession of child pornography.

Todd, 15, was found dead in October 2012, weeks after she detailed the online harassment and bullying she suffered in a YouTube video, using flashcards to tell her story.


A news release from the Dutch prosecutor’s office said the man was arrested in January and is suspected of encouraging underage girls in several countries, including the U.S., the U.K. and the Netherlands, to perform sexual acts in front of a web camera.

The man is also suspected of posing as an underage boy and encouraging men to perform sexual acts on webcam, then blackmailing them by threatening to give the images to the police, the news release said.



Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dutch-man-arrested-in-connection-with-amanda-todd-case-rcmp-1.1780872#ixzz2zFdZPnqa

Includes details from the operation's support officer first on Amanda's harassment case in 2010 and the effects Amanda's video had around the world. (I can't get that actual url to show here separately, but it's the RCMP presser off to the right.)

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Response to polly7 (Reply #66)

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:49 PM

67. I don't know why I'm surprised that it was someone so far away

I think it's the incomprehension that someone wo do so much evil from so far away. Thanks for this update. I hope he suffers greatly for what he did ("and he's tied to a number of young victims... dozens of victims around the globe" !) I know this is so wrong but I wish I could hang him myself. RIP Amanda

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Response to polly7 (Reply #66)

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:34 PM

68. Well, that's good news

You should cross post this to GD.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #68)

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:38 PM

69. Done :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024839528

Yes, and it was great to hear in the RCMP presser how Amanda's video has affected so many around the world.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #69)

Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:43 PM

70. Awesome

I'll just step on over and rec

ETA I see it was posted earlier this morning, serves me right for sleeping in

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