Women's Rights & Issues
Related: About this forumSOP conversation
Our current SOP is: "Discuss all issues affecting women in the U.S. and around the world."
Does it need to be changed?
I think we had mentioned that we would talk about the SOP after hosts were selected.
We would also discuss whether we should be a 'protected group', though I am unclear what that actually means in DU3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1138190#post2
yardwork
(61,585 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)yardwork
(61,585 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)but its a convo we said we'd have, so i thought we should have whether or not i understood it
to me, all protected status means is that we can block people from this forum, which we should be able to do anyway
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)To me, it means the ability to block someone who is blatantly against women's rights. ie abortion should be illegal in all cases. Most posters like this will be PRRed anyway, but maybe not right away. I don't mind people disagreeing with me about things, as long as that disagreement doesn't advocate the removal of civil rights.
I also know some posters will disagree and think protected means the discourse can be more tightly controlled.
If we include a disclaimer in the SOP saying posters are expected to advocate for civil rights for women, and must also recognize the inherent equality of women, then adhering to the SOP would cover all of this.
I'm just spitballing here. I'm open to anything.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)then protected vs. not protected can be decided
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)EVER? If so, please -- tell me who, because I'm utterly unaware of it.
yardwork
(61,585 posts)Remember Me
(1,532 posts)maddezmom
(135,060 posts)Remember Me
(1,532 posts)much evidence that sexism and misogyny are even frowned upon here, let alone a TOS-able, now PPR-able offense. Glad to hear I'm just ill-informed or "not in the know."
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)and many more from DU2.
laconicsax
(14,860 posts)The first that comes to mind is working guy who seemed to join DU just to say that all women are whores.
There have been others as well.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)maddezmom
(135,060 posts)obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)Irishonly
(3,344 posts)In a perfect world trolls would be banned before any harm is done. We do not live in a perfect world.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)This group was a forum under DU2 and as such couldn't be a safe haven. Forums were open to all posters, not just those with stars. It seems to have functioned just fine that way.
However, this is an open thread so please take the above as a suggestion only.
I'll be back later with some ideas on the SoP.
Pri, I'm pinning this thread.
yardwork
(61,585 posts)I am not comfortable with two-tier systems in which some people are excluded because they can't afford a star, for example.
If this group is going to be open to everybody on DU to read and discuss issues of importance to women, as long as community standards are observed, then it is the right place for me. I don't think that it's necessary to exclude people on the basis of litmus tests about their opinions of this or that, or their personal characteristics. The community standards of DU are quite clear - progressive points of view are welcomed. Right-wing points of view are not. If a person's opinions and behavior fall within the community standards of DU, then they are likely to fall within the SoP of this and any discussion group.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)and calls prochoice people, pro-deathers? thats not necessarily enough to get you PPR'd from DU, but should it be ok in this group?
yardwork
(61,585 posts)And I checked the TOS box.
That said, I believe that we could handle any poster who came in here and said that. We would have that poster for lunch.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)If a person was outrageous and used nasty language, I'd give them the boot, wouldn't you?
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)OKNancy
(41,832 posts)that I was a hardass about this kind of thing.
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)niyad
(113,210 posts)maddezmom
(135,060 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)kdmorris
(5,649 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)I do welcome people who are ambivalent or against abortion personally but who accept that the issue is choice and that other women have the right to choose differently.
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)yardwork
(61,585 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)yardwork
(61,585 posts)obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)Because half of mine don't.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)Things seen to be humming along fine. Just as long as everyone is civil, I think we will do fine.
Now, if someone is causing trouble, I won't have any problem giving them the boot.
SOP - I did ask earlier if we could talk about ANY women's issue, no matter how trivial. Theory and waves are fine, and I'm sure we all could use some education, but I would like to also talk about work, society, crappy fashion, chin hairs, and partner problems.
In that way, I think the group won't be too stale. I think we could also attract new blood.
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)Gormy, etal may think differently.
niyad
(113,210 posts)yardwork
(61,585 posts)kdmorris
(5,649 posts)It helps to kind of set the tone on what really isn't allowed. I could give you an example of what happened at the Health group...Our original SOP was "Discuss all aspects of health and health care policy." Very broad and kind of vague. It certainly describes at a high level what the forum is going to be, but if we ever had to block someone for posting advertisements or lock a post that was seeking medical advice, we would have been hard pressed to say "Hey, you had all the knowledge at your fingertips to know that we were going to lock that post (or block you)".
What we (the hosts maybe, if it becomes way too complicated for 100 people to determine an SOP) need to determine is: "What don't we want to see in our group?"
Would you lock a post or give someone a time out for using misogynist language? That should be spelled out. Will you block two people for having a all out flame war? (even for a short period of time?) If so, that should be spelled out.
From my perspective (and I am not a host of this group), I would not be happy with personal attacks on other members (you should spell out the exact actions you will take - warning, then time out, then you are out of here).
I would like the group to not allow people to come in and use misogynistic language. You can include that you would warn them to edit it first (maybe someone doesn't realize that it's hurtful to others), but then it will be locked (unfortunately, only for OPs) or there will be some other consequence.
I trust all of you to use your judgement on locking an OP that has turned into a destructive flamewar (even if the OP does not violate the SOP). I think all of you know a flame war vs a heated discussion. When people are just trying to hurt each other - it's not fun being part of that and I would support locking such OPs (even if it were mine and I didn't participate in the flame war).
Above all, I'm just going to use Skinner's words - it's supposed to be fun. Don't allow anyone to make it suck for rest of us.
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)yardwork
(61,585 posts)A short, simple SoP is best, imo. If we try to spell out every possible problem, it gets very unwieldy very quickly, we'll argue about wording, we'll never have a complete list of everything we don't want people to say or do, and in the end trolls will just wriggle through loopholes.
A short, simple, robust SoP, accompanied by our experienced hosts who know how to recognize and deal with troublemakers, plus the commitment of our members to be civil, thoughtful, and kind to one another, will give us the environment we seek, I believe.
kdmorris
(5,649 posts)My trend toward being REALLY talkative probably make it sound like I thought a 70 page SOP was in order.
No, I meant something like this:
The Women's Rights and Issues group is for discussing all issues affecting women in the U.S. and around the world. Sexist/hate speech and questioning whether there is a problem will not be tolerated. Flaming has not place here. If found to be in violation of these rules, you will be given one warning and then your post will be locked or you may be blocked from the forum.
I'm sure someone can wordsmith something WAY nicer than that, but that was more what I was thinking.
Meh, I'm tired
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)Is for members to stay on topic of the OP, be respectful of others opinions and don't belittle them if their views may be different. In other words no bigotry. No sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. no matter how slight the slur may be perceived.
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)kdmorris
(5,649 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)The more specific the better. That way if someone does break the SOP/rules you can direct them to said bullet point. I also think it's very important to outline consequences of breaking the rules.
Just curious, should the amount of posts hidden play into the SOP/rules?
For example, if you get X posts hidden in a matter of X time, you get a time out? If after that time out, you get X number of posts hidden, you're blocked. People can say things without breaking specific rules/sop and still be a trouble maker.
Lisa D
(1,532 posts)I especially like your idea in the last paragraph. People can stay just inside the lines of an SOP and still be vicious or insulting.
yardwork
(61,585 posts)I speak from experience raising two children.
laconicsax
(14,860 posts)I think that some sort of provision stating that this group isn't for debating whether certain issues exist of whether there's a need for women's rights advocacy could be useful.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)The need for Women's Rights shouldn't be up for debate here.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)kdmorris
(5,649 posts)Once Women's Rights and Issues became a group and not a forum, the hosts are now the ones that determine the rules. At the top of the group it says:
This is a group, not a forum. Groups often serve as safe havens for members who share similar interests and viewpoints. Individuals who post messages contrary to a particular group's stated purpose can be excluded from posting in that group. For detailed information about this group and its purpose, click here.
So, really... what we come up with for the SOP will determine how "protected" we are. At that is my understanding of it.
MH1
(17,595 posts)Ok I don't post here very much, but I am very interested in seeing this group remain a functional, worthwhile place for discussion of the topic of women's rights. That means avoiding some of the issues that have seemed to plague *cough* other groups in DU.
For one thing, this group (in my view and preference), should be primarily about women's RIGHTS, which are under assault pretty much everywhere, and which have never, in most places and certainly not in the U.S., reached parity with the rights of men (men as in male human beings, not the allegedly generalized 'men' which arguably doesn't really include women when rights are the topic).
The U.S. never ratified the Equal Rights Amendment, remember? That matters. That it matters has been driven home full force this week with the sordid spectacles we've seen, on Capitol Hill with the hearing farce about birth control, and the VA law that a raped woman will be raped yet again by the state, or bear her rapist's child. Most here probably remember the Catholic nun who was disciplined for (if I remember the details correctly) allowing a woman who was dying with the dying fetus inside her to have an abortion, when there was nearly 0 (and doctors will never say absolutely 0) chance of the fetus surviving; both would surely die if the fetus were not aborted. But in the Catholic Church's view, A WOMAN HAS NO RIGHT TO LIFE. How stark is that?
There are tons of issues out there that affect women. Many can be tied in to a political discussion of women's rights. For example, the failure to protect women from environmental toxins that they are exposed to at a higher rate than men, or the failure of health care system to adequately differentiate appropriate treatments for women vs. men.
There's a lot of issues that might be highly contentious, where "freedom" might potentially conflict with exploitation. (Porn, anyone?)
Then there are issues of overlap with other groups. There are the rights of women as opposed to the rights of men in our patriarchal society. Then what about the issues of lesbian or trans-gendered women?
What I would hope to see from this group is an emphasis on discussion of women's rights that are relevant to any woman walking down the street. Rights that impact her ability to live her life to its fullest, but which might be threatened because she is a woman. NOT issues that might come up because she is a lesbian or transgendered woman (if those need a group, it should be a different group, imo. But those women will also suffer for the rights issues that I'm saying DO belong here.) And not things that are really not political issues, such as "why did Clairol discontinue my shade of hair color" or stuff like that. Well I hope that last example isn't too bizarre, but just trying to give an example of a non-political, non rights-based issue that probably wouldn't belong in this group.
Also, I would request that it be considered 'protected' in the sense that speech decrying the abuse of women - even if poorly stated and possibly insensitive to other cultures - should be protected. Sure, if I make a broad brush accusation in a way that unfairly tars a particular culture, call me on it and explain why I'm wrong. But I think if we are going to discuss the abuse of women, the attitudes against women that result in women being treated as property, sometimes an inartful, 'culturally insensitive' thing might slip out. But you know what? After this last week in the war on women, I'm a little less interested in being "culturally sensitive", and a lot more interested in what the f*** do we do to stop these assholes?
Well I guess that about covers it. I expect my voice to be small here because I don't post much, but thought I'd throw it out there for consideration. It's just my opinion. Overall I think this group has been doing a pretty good job, so maybe you don't need to change anything anyway.
Lisa D
(1,532 posts)And I wish I knew how excerpt a post. You stated:
"What I would hope to see from this group is an emphasis on discussion of women's rights that are relevant to any woman walking down the street. Rights that impact her ability to live her life to its fullest, but which might be threatened because she is a woman. NOT issues that might come up because she is a lesbian or transgendered woman (if those need a group, it should be a different group, imo. But those women will also suffer for the rights issues that I'm saying DO belong here.)"
Do you also believe a poster shouldn't bring up issues because she's a black woman or a poor woman or a disabled woman? Because I think it would enhance discussions of womens' rights if posters were able to disclose all the discrimination they encounter, which could be more (or even possibly less) because of an additional minority status.
And I also want to add that I hope you will participate a lot in this group. I think you'd be a great addition!
MH1
(17,595 posts)If a lesbian is mistreated or subject to unequal treatment because she is gay, then that is an issue for GLBT, I think. (Not being an active member of that group, I'm not sure how they're broken out, and I'm also afraid I might not use the right terms to express my meaning. But I'll try.). If she is subject to unequal treatment in the gay community because she is a woman, again, I would see that as an issue for GLBT, or maybe a separate group. If she is subject to unequal treatment in overall society - hiring , education, walking down the street - because she is recognized as a woman and therefore (to the person treating her this way) as less than or 'different' than a man - THAT belongs in this group.
To your question
- not at all! But maybe the wording is tripping me. To me it is irrelevant whether a poster is a minority, gay, different in some other way, or even a man rather than a woman - if the ISSUE being discussed is about women's rights as relative to men's rights.
If an issue arises primarily because of someone's minority status, I would think that would belong in Race & Ethnicity. If it arises primarily because she's a woman, and is perhaps exacerbated by her minority status, that certainly would belong here, including the ways that the general inequity to women is magnified by other factors such as race or ethnicity.
If this all sounds maybe too specific and even pedantic: I saw a post upthread by niyad that helps explain why I recommend these lines be drawn. Her post was basically "all issues are women's issues". I agree with that!!! So what would be the point of having a separate forum for "women's rights and issues" if it's about EVERYTHING that affects women in any way? So I think the emphasis on RIGHTS is key, to differentiate this forum and keep it focused on a coherent set of topics. By RIGHTS we are talking about cultural and legal barriers to living a full life, or in other words, the ways women are put down and held back from achieving their aspirations due to being born female.
Does that answer your question?
(oh and to excerpt a post: copy and paste the piece you want into your post. Then highlight the pasted bit in your post, then click the "excerpt" button. The "excerpt" button is located in the row of buttons between the post title and the message text area of the post you're writing. Hope that helps!)
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)It is fundamentally impossible to segregate which oppression is greater in most cases. I'll construct a hypothetical for you. A political candidate says African-Americans cause their own problem because they won't get jobs. The same blowhard also says that women are the core of the family and need to step aside and let men make the money to care for the family. This politician is elected and his party has majority status in both houses.
If I'm an African-American woman, both of those political positions have the potential to affect me. The second part is a women's rights issue directly. The first part is also a women's rights issue because a subset of African-Americans are women. It seems to me that discussing one without the other is ignoring the synergistic effect of dealing with multiple assaults on women's rights by this politician.
Lisa D
(1,532 posts)I see the point you're making, but I don't agree. Using your example, if a lesbian is experiencing unequal treatment in the gay community because she's a woman, that still seems to be a womens' rights issues. Especially if it relates to unequal treatment in overall society.
Plus, I think it might be impossible (not to mention exhausting) for hosts to decide which issues are womens' rights for overall society and which belong to some subset of rights that shouldn't be discussed in this forum.
BTW, thank you SO much for explaining how to excerpt a post. I was doing it all wrong
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)this is an area we can talk about intersectionality and we will. if something is relevant to my being gay, an ethnic minority or something else, it belongs in here because I as a woman suffer from it or experience it.
i dont want this to end up being the place that it's only ok to speak about women's rights as long as the women has no other oppression.
obamanut2012
(26,050 posts)You beat me to it.
You cannot carve out a woman's gender from the rest of her identity and life experiences. Intersectionality is a very real thing.
MH1
(17,595 posts)unfortunately I have to go do other things now ... in fact I'm way overdue ... so I'll address it later if it appears that I need to.
It is just my opinion, and if it isn't shared by the group's regulars, that's fine, and I don't expect anyone to change anything for my view. I was just trying to put into words how I think this group could be differentiated and focused. If that's not what you want, that's not what you want.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Thanks.