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Wed Mar 7, 2012, 01:49 PM

Palestinians say no to new talks without settlement freeze

Palestinian leaders have told Jordan’s visiting foreign minister they will not resume Mideast peace talks without an Israeli settlement freeze.

Jordan’s Nasser Judeh explored the possibility of resuming talks in a meeting Wednesday with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. In January, Jordan hosted low-level Israeli-Palestinian talks that broke down in acrimony.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/jordan-fm-hears-palestinian-no-to-renewed-talks/

31 replies, 2476 views

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Palestinians say no to new talks without settlement freeze (Original post)
Mosby Mar 2012 OP
Lil Missy Mar 2012 #1
Mosby Mar 2012 #2
Lil Missy Mar 2012 #3
shira Mar 2012 #4
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #5
Ruby the Liberal Mar 2012 #6
azurnoir Mar 2012 #8
shira Mar 2012 #10
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #18
shira Mar 2012 #22
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #25
shira Mar 2012 #27
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #29
shira Mar 2012 #30
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #31
Violet_Crumble Mar 2012 #12
azurnoir Mar 2012 #7
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #9
shira Mar 2012 #11
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #13
shira Mar 2012 #14
azurnoir Mar 2012 #20
shira Mar 2012 #23
azurnoir Mar 2012 #26
shira Mar 2012 #28
Mosby Mar 2012 #15
shira Mar 2012 #16
shaayecanaan Mar 2012 #17
Mosby Mar 2012 #19
azurnoir Mar 2012 #21
shira Mar 2012 #24

Response to Mosby (Original post)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 02:04 PM

1. And who can blame them?

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 02:46 PM

2. It's just an excuse

In the past Palestinians and Israelis negotiated while the settlements expanded, this went on for quite a long time.

Every realistic 2-state plan out there includes land swaps which would bring almost all the settlements into Israel, everyone knows this including the Palestinians, but they just don't want to sit down and negotiate so they make up excuses like this.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 06:26 PM

3. That's what has happened, but not with Palestian agreement that settlements continue.

Israelis just bulldoze their way through Palestian territory with impunity.

That's all I have to say on this.

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Response to Mosby (Original post)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 06:46 PM

4. So what? What do the 2 sides have to talk about w/Hamas in the mix?

Israel: Okay, let's talk peace.

Hamas: We will never recognize Israel and the best we'll offer is a short term truce after full RoR. We won't even really renounce violence or terror. That's not who we are. Submit!!!

Israel: Okay, thanks. Bye.

END OF TALKS

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Response to Mosby (Original post)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 10:40 PM

5. And then there are the Israeli preconditions...

that the Palestinians must agree to recognise Israel as a Jewish state (in advance of final status negotiations), that they must allow Israel a security presence in the Jordan valley, that the Palestinian state must be demilitarised, that the Palestinians must forego any right of return, and that the settlement blocs must remain in Israeli hands.

The problem for the Palestinians is that if they agree to all of this its hard to see how things would improve from their current situation. The Israeli military would still be operating within the West Bank, the settlements would still be there (effectively dividing the West Bank in two), and the Palestinians would be largely powerless to deter any malfeasance by either settlers or the Israeli Army.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 11:09 PM

6. Out of curiosity, which of those do you have a problem with?

Plenty of Sharia nation-states in the region - is there room for a (secular) Jewish state as well?

If so - do they have a right to self-defense, and if not - where would you have them go?

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #6)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 11:50 PM

8. out of curiosity do you deny that Israel is at present a Jewish State?

why does Israel need the Palestinians to define it?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:19 AM

10. The PLO and Hamas need to recognize Israel as a Jewish state...

...in order for there to be peace. By doing so, they're admitting they have no desire to eventually make the whole area one state, and Arab majority. You realize that's all they've told their people the last 60+ years, right? Now if all you want is an end to occupation and no peace, that's another story.

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Response to shira (Reply #10)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 04:25 PM

18. What's the problem with saying that Israel is an Arab and Jewish state?

After all, that is more factually true than saying that Israel is just a Jewish state. Or are you attempting to say that the 1.5 million Arabs in Israel don't belong there?

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #18)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:20 PM

22. Why is this so difficult? Two nations for two peoples. One is a Palestinian homeland...

...for Palestinians. The other is the Jewish homeland for Jews. Each recognizes the other as such. Each renounces all claims to land on the other side of their borders. Commitment to peace, etc.

I'm not saying Arabs don't belong in Israel. But Israel needs to remain a safe haven for all Jews worldwide. That's non-negotiable. I don't care if Israel can no longer be defined as a democracy for not allowing a majority to vote the Jewish state out of existence. That should never be allowed to happen.

Now to reverse the question back to you: By defining Palestine as the homeland for Palestinians, do you think that necessarily means Jews do not belong there?

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Response to shira (Reply #22)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 07:19 PM

25. You are trying to conflate two quite different notions...

France is the homeland of the French.
America is the homeland of the Americans.
Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinians.
Israel is the homeland of the Israelis Jews.

Now to reverse the question back to you: By defining Palestine as the homeland for Palestinians, do you think that necessarily means Jews do not belong there?


Of course not. It would be perfectly viable notion to be a Palestinian Jew.

I'm not saying Arabs don't belong in Israel.


So you would have no problem with Israel being recognised as a state of Jews and Arabs? After all, that is what it factually is, right?

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #25)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 02:56 PM

27. No I'm not...

France is the homeland of the French.
America is the homeland of the Americans.
Palestine is the homeland of the Palestinians.
Israel is the homeland of the (Israelis) Jews.


There's no contradiction there. Being a Jew isn't faith based. Jews are an ethnicity as well as a nation, and it's been that way for over 3000 years. Every country in that region is defined as either an Arab or Arab/Muslim nation, and I don't see the same people who question Israelis/Jews doing the same with all other nations in that part of the world. And please don't give me that crap about more being expected from a Western democracy. If it's wrong for Israel in your view, it must be just as wrong throughout the rest of the region. Same standards for everyone.

So you would have no problem with Israel being recognised as a state of Jews and Arabs? After all, that is what it factually is, right?

I would have a problem with that. It's not Jews' fault that it's a Jewish homeland/nation. That responsibility falls on the heads of non-Jews throughout the rest of the world who forced Israel into being a safe haven for Jews. Until the rest of the world grows up, and it has not done so yet, I don't see a reason things should change. Once that happens, then I think you have a stronger case.

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Response to shira (Reply #27)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 06:54 PM

29. You enjoy denying the patently obvious, don't you?

There's no contradiction there.


Yes, there is. The difference is that a person could be a Black American, a White American, or a Chinese American. Likewise, someone could be a Kurdish Palestinian, or a Coptic Palestinian or a Jewish Palestinian. To be Palestinian is an identity that is potentially open to anyone, whereas to be Jewish is obviously an affiliation that is only open to Jews.

The problem with the sentence "Israel is a Jewish state" is that it is factually inaccurate. Roughly 20% of Israel's population is Arab and this will swell to 30% within a generation. If you have a bucket of sand with a grain of salt in it, you can still get away with calling it a bucket of sand. But if you have a basket containing seven apples and three bananas, you can no longer get away with calling it a basket of apples. It is a basket of apples and bananas.

To the extent that the Palestinian leadership does not want to deny the existence of Israeli Arabs or to imply that their connection to the land is any less legitimate than that of Jews, their objection to rubber stamping a patently racist conceit has a perfectly valid basis.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #29)

Sat Mar 10, 2012, 07:26 AM

30. Israel is the Jewish homeland and a refuge for all Jews worldwide...

You don't believe Israel should give preference to Jews who still, after 70 years, need Israel to be what it is, do you? That when they do so, it's evil b/c they're just pushing more Arabs out - right?

"Both sides will declare that Palestine is the only state of the Palestinian people and Israel is the only state of the Jewish people."

-Sari Nusseibeh


Mutual Recognition: Under the Geneva Accord, the Palestinian people and government recognize the right of the Jewish people to their own state and recognize the State of Israel as their national home. Conversely, the people and government of Israel recognize the Palestinian state as the national home of the Palestinian people.

-Geneva Accord


"It is up to the Israelis and Palestinians to take action. No peace can be imposed upon them -- not by the United States; not by anybody else ... a lasting peace will involve two states for two peoples: Israel as a Jewish state and the homeland for the Jewish people, and the state of Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people ... The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states."
- "Arab Spring" Speech, May 19, 2011.

"The special bonds between our nations are ones that all Americans hold dear because they’re bonds forged by common interests and shared values. They’re bonds that transcend partisan politics ... We stand with Israel as a Jewish democratic state because we know that Israel is born of firmly held values that we, as Americans, share: a culture committed to justice, a land that welcomes the weary, a people devoted to tikkun olam ... So America’s commitment to Israel and Israel’s security is unshakeable.
- Remarks to the 71st General Assembly of the Union for Reform Judaism, December 16, 2011

-Barak Obama


So as I understand it, your position against a Jewish state/homeland mirrors that of Hamas and the PLO. And you believe Obama, Nusseibeh, and the Geneva Accord people (as well as all those who believe the same) are the real extremists, racists, etc. Not Hamas and the PLO b/c their intentions on this one issue are pure. Is that correct?

Further, as I understand it you only see racism/apartheid and the like WRT Israel in the mideast. That's why you practically never ever speak or write about those things (including slavery) outside of Israel in the mideast. Is that correct?

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Response to shira (Reply #30)

Sat Mar 10, 2012, 07:34 PM

31. I don't object to Israel being described as a refuge for Jews...

I object to it being called a Jewish state, in the same way I would object to America being described as a White Protestant state, or Germany as a Teutonic state.

My position is that Israel is not a state of Jews only. It is a state of Jews and Arabs. It is therefore a Jewish and Arab state. It is inaccurate to call it a Jewish state when it is in fact it is a state of Jews and Arabs. I regard it as a racist conceit to deny or minimise the existence of Israeli Arabs, irrespective of whomever does it.

You don't believe Israel should give preference to Jews.


Well, giving preference to one race over another is generally regarded as racism. For example, until the 1930s Australia generally only accepted Anglo-Saxon or Irish migrants, and even until the 1960s or so European Christian migrants were preferred.

This policy is today regarded as racism. Now, I suppose you could compare Israel's migration policies to affirmative action - that is to say it is discriminating on the basis of race, but in order to rectify a broader pattern of racism. So selectively employing black people to public sector positions might not be racist, if it is done in the context of black people being refused jobs in the private sector.

The problem is that the outcome of Israel's racist policies towards Arabs means that Arabs in Israel are treated far worse than Jews are treated anywhere else. For example, a 12-year old child of an Arab mother must be expelled from Israel if the father happens to have come from Syria, Lebanon or Iraq - a policy that you've attempted to defend before. Its hard to see how this benefits Jews or how it serves any legitimate policy interest. It is a policy intended solely to punish Arabs.







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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #6)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:38 AM

12. I have a problem with all of them....

Also, as you mentioned Sharia, it's important to note that Israel isn't truly secular, as it has Sharia courts for Israelis who are Muslim, and of course when it comes to Israeli-Jews, all family law is in the hands of religious courts....

When you ask 'where would you have them go?' I take it yr asking about Israeli settlers? If so, there's an easy answer for that - Israel.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 7, 2012, 11:49 PM

7. the Israeli pre-conditions amount to a near rubber stamping of what currently is

with snippets of land here and there in Israel traded to the Palestinians in exchange, considering those things no right to self defense for Palestinians, Israeli Arabs given permanent second class citizenship in Israel, the question is why should they bother ?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:08 AM

9. that is precisely correct - the Israeli preconditions amount to nothing more than a status quo

arrangement. If the Palestinians accept , then they are no better off than they are now.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:22 AM

11. What's this rubbish about a Palestinian right to defense?

Who would they be 'defending' from?

Israel?

As for Arabs having second class citizenship in Israel, what concern is that to a Palestinian state? What concern is that to you, considering discrimination is arguably worse in your own country than it is in Israel?

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Response to shira (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:49 AM

13. so you don't regard Palestinians as having the right to self-defence?

Interesting. I'll add that to your list of meaningful attributes, along with the fact that you think the settlements are justified, that racist websites are interesting for "their facts, not their opinions", and that comparing the freshly slaughtered teenagers in Norway last year to the Hitler Youth was not at all in bad taste.

Out of interest, are there any other peoples that you consider should be deprived of the natural right to self-defence? Perhaps your home country of Canada - after all who are they going to defend themselves against - the United States?

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #13)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 10:05 AM

14. So you think a big Palestinian air force, tanks, etc. wouldn't be used against Israel....

Last edited Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:27 PM - Edit history (1)

...for terror/war purposes? See, it works this way: When other nations don't screw with Israel and attack it, Israel doesn't either. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and even Lebanon recently have figured this out. The Palestinians, OTOH, have not. I don't have an issue with Palestinian self-defense, once they demonstrate they're committed to not attacking Israel (like the states mentioned earlier). You think Hamas can be trusted with tanks and an airforce?

There are many countries that are demilitarized today. For much worse reasons than a future Palestine, which has a proven track record of unprovoked terror attacks with the aim of murdering my friends and relatives there. As well as a current "policy" to keep the armed resistance going...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

As to racist websites, you frequent them not me. Like ElectronicIntifada and any other site that routinely publishes bigots and antisemites who'd love to see Israel destroyed. You prefer their opinions as they very rarely report facts or facts within context, but rather half-truths and outright malicious lies. Your other accusations are just as baseless and hypocritical. Hell, you're the one who couldn't - and maybe still can't - distinguish between Islamists and liberal Muslims, thinking they're all the same. Perhaps a carryover from your days in Lebanon where Palestinian christian refugees were welcomed as Lebanese citizens while the Muslim Palestinian refugees were not and are still living under apartheid conditions, which seemingly doesn't bother you in the least. Then again, I never see the Left distinguishing Islamists from Liberals, for the simple fact that Leftists don't give a shit about liberals and actually prefer Right or Leftwing extremists in charge. Whatever they do to their people is irrelevant b/c the people, all being the same, are supposedly one with the victimized leadership which hasn't yet recovered from Imperialism and Colonialism, which gives them a pass to do whatever they want.

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Response to shira (Reply #11)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 05:28 PM

20. why does a Palestinian state need a military? why does Jordan or Egypt?

apparently you can see the big picture WRT who else would the Palestinians be defending themselves from as there are Arab groups out there that may well create problems Islamic Jihad for instance and the smaller lesser known one that have been causing problems in Gaza, the ones that are even more extremist than Hamas.

and finally yes there are Jewish extremists that may well commit terrorist acts in a Palestinian state and who will defend Palestine against them, IDF, just like it does now, which is to say it doesn't much defend Palestinian not their job as I understand it

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #20)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:31 PM

23. The more specific question is why does Hamas need a military?

They're still at war with Israel, they say they will always remain at war with Israel, they will never renounce terror, etc. Why should they be allowed a military? You think Israel is wrong for not being suicidal? It appears you wouldn't mind at all if tens of thousands more were killed due to Hamas having better weapons.

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Response to shira (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 07:45 PM

26. your conflating the right now with the future

right now Hamas is in control of Gaza and yes there is unity talk has been for close to a year now but as of yet its just that -talk. In an actual Palestinian state it is highly doubtful Hamas will be in control and in such an event Israel has its very own tanks planes bombs ect and is as history has shown us more than willing to use them

so in your opinion Israel has right to self defense but Palestinians do not have I got that right?

Kind of a double standard isn't it?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #26)

Fri Mar 9, 2012, 02:59 PM

28. So with a 2 state solution, you recommend the West Bank be militarized...

...but not Gaza due to Hamas, right? We'll pretend for now that the PLO has peaceful intentions that Hamas does not.

And there's no double standard WRT demilitarization. I provided a link a few posts above this showing just how many demilitarized states there are.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #5)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 11:45 AM

15. Netanyahu said he would start negotiations without any preconditions

25 September 2011 Last updated at 16:35 ET

The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has urged the Palestinians to agree to talks without preconditions, in an effort to achieve a peace deal.

His comments to BBC Arabic came as Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas received a hero's welcome on his arrival back from New York, where he applied for full state membership at the United Nation.

video at link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15055578

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Response to Mosby (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 12:41 PM

16. Obviously a mistranslation. He's still calling for pre-conditions.

So I can easily dismiss that BBC report.

But nice try sticking up for the Zionist regime. Are you a paid shill?

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Response to Mosby (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 04:14 PM

17. I suppose his preconditions must not be preconditions, then...

either that or he's a liar, perish the thought.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #17)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 05:25 PM

19. Dude, he is on video saying he's willing to start negotiations w/out preconditions

Here is Ma'an's reporting on this:

Netanyahu said he offered to meet Abbas on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly where he urged him to approach peace talks without preconditions.

"In the UN I said to President Abbas, 'Look, we're in the same city. We're in the same building, for God's sake, the UN. Let's just sit down and begin to talk peace.' Why are we talking about talking? Why negotiating about negotiating? It's very simple. If you want to get to peace put all your preconditions on the side. Sit down opposite a table," Netanyahu said.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=423574

Bloomberg Businessweek:

Netanyahu Accepts Call for Peace Talks Without Preconditions

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-02/netanyahu-accepts-call-for-peace-talks-without-preconditions.html

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Response to Mosby (Reply #19)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 05:29 PM

21. ya Netanyahu said that and how many thousand settlement units has he approved since then? n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #21)

Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:32 PM

24. Yep, it's all Netanyahu's fault. The PLO and Hamas are so desperate for peace talks...

...and having their own independent state with no settlements or occupation.

Seems you're the one not interested in peace talks. I mean, if the PLO and Hamas are victims you can never blame no matter what they do to keep the conflict going, then you're giving them a pass and going with their propaganda that blames Israel no matter which leadership is in charge (Likud, Labor, whatever).

Seriously, do you really want to see peace talks b/w the two sides?

Because if so, you're not showing it. You're giving the PLO and Hamas a pass to stall, delay, and keep the conflict going to the fact that we all damned well know they're holding out for everything, believing that the Arab world has their backs and Israel will eventually be destroyed.

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