Rightists Award Student Who Persecuted 'Left-Wing' Teacher

[Purveyor]

Far-right former MK Michael Ben-Ari and notorious Hebron settler Baruch Marzel hold an award ceremony for a high school student who tried to have her teacher fired for expressing “left-wing” views.

By Activestills |Published February 10, 2014

A very strange ceremony took place in the small town of Kiryat Tivon, in northern Israel on Sunday. Former Knesset member Michael Ben-Ari gave momentarily famous high-school student Sapir Sabah the “Jewish State Award” at an event attended by a variegated mix of hardline settlement leaders, followers of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane and anti-African refugee activists from south Tel Aviv. Outside, a group of local residents protested the ceremony, calling those inside “fascists” and shouting, ”Tivon is not Hebron.” Police stood in the middle and prevented the two sides from clashing.

The award commended Sabah for “bravely standing up for the dignity of the nation of Israel” and defending the honor of its soldiers against those “dirty pieces of debris” who seek to undermine the Jewish people’s hold on the Land of Israel. Earlier this year the 12th grader publicly denounced her civics teacher, Adam Verete, for exposing his students to “extremist left-wing views” – allegedly by questioning the Israeli army’s morality and the legitimacy of a Jewish state. Months before she herself will be drafted into the army, Sabah found those views extremely distressing and wrote a letter to the education minister. The affair might have ended there if not for the intervention of Michael Ben-Ari, who reposted the letter on Facebook and took up her cause. Ben-Ari’s campaign turned the affair into a public battle against those he accused of “poisoning the wells of the education system.”

In the ensuing nation-wide furor, the teacher almost lost his job. At the same time, the affair brought back into the spotlight Michael Ben-Ari, whose popularity has somewhat waned since his glory days of 2012. Ben-Ari was known for organizing a series of protests against African asylum seekers in south Tel Aviv which eventually resulted in a violent pogrom that saw a racist and xenophobic mob attack asylum seekers and their and shops. Some of the same people who were at the forefront of those protests stood outside the award ceremony on Sunday, shouting abuse at those who came to confront their celebration of nationalism.

The evening was a stark reminder that the hyper-nationalism usually associated with hardline West Bank settlements has a tendency to creep back into Israel proper — even to small periphery communities like Kirya Tivon. Baruch Marzel, one of the leaders of the Hebron Jewish settlement, joked during the ceremony that the same leftists who usually want him to “get out of Hebron” were outside shouting at him to go back to Hebron.

MORE...

http://972mag.com/photos-rightists-award-student-who-persecuted-left-wing-teacher/87000/

[Scootaloo]

1. Liberal zionism is on the march, one goose-step at a time!

[LeftishBrit]

2. This is far-right extremism, not liberal anything

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:38 PM - Edit history (2)

The loons hate liberal Zionists, and attack them as readily as they do non-Zionists. Fortunately they failed in their vicious attack. And will continue to do so, so long as liberal and just plane sane Israelis and Zionists are vigilant.

These nutters sound pretty much like the BNP and similar groups in the UK and elsewhere.

[Israeli]

3. I dont know who is more confused ...

you or Scootaloo .

The teacher in question is male and is not a " liberal Zionist " ....he votes Hadash .
He is not a Zionist .

Best read this :

http://972mag.com/student-persecutes-high-school-teacher-for-political-views/86056/

" These nutters sound pretty much like the BNP and similar groups in the UK and elsewhere. "

The BNP are religious fanatics ?

[LeftishBrit]

4. OK - sorry, misread something when reading too fast. But people like that hate liberal Zionists too.

The BNP are religious fanatics ?

Not in most cases; they are nationalist fanatics. But there is a lot of similarity between religious and nationalist fanatics.

[Israeli]

5. Baruch Marzel and Michael Ben-Ari.....

are both disciples of Rabbi Meir Kahane .... as is Avidor Lieberman.
So yes there are a lot of similarity between religious and nationalist fanatics.

The BNP ever carried out anything on the scale of Baruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir ?

Your BNP are a small minority .....our BNP , thanks to immigration from Brooklyn and Avidor Lieberman's Russia ... are fast becoming our majority .

Democracy !! ...... import enough Arab haters ....who cares whether they are Jewish or not .

[Scootaloo]

7. I'm not at all confused.

"Liberal zionism" is an oxymoron like "reform orthodoxy" or "materialist asceticism."

[King_David]

8. Obama: Israel validates Herzl’s Zionist vision

http://www.jta.org/2013/04/16/news-opinion/united-states/obama-israel-validates-herzls-zionist-vision


An interesting excersize is to google "Obama Zionist" or. "Liberal Zionist "
And see the list of extremist websites taking issue.
Very interesting indeed .

[Scootaloo]

9. Google for "Bush Zionist" - same results

Hell, you could probably type up, i dunno, "Fozzie Bear Zionism" and still hit two or three articles from Rense

(Actually no, but i did find some interesting analyses of the muppets that point out Fozzie's use of Jewish humor. Neat stuff, actually)

So do you have a point to make, Dave? I really wish that when you have a point, you would just... y'know... get it out there.

[King_David]

10. It's not nearly as nasty as the extremist right wing

Last edited Fri Feb 14, 2014, 12:49 AM - Edit history (1)

David Duke Stormfront nasty ...

And the point ? Extremist are ugly ... Vote Democratic Party of the USA for a fine balanced and liberal Zionist point of view...

[Scootaloo]

11. You're right, extremism IS ugly

Which is why I oppose Zionism - along with white supremacism. In fact as I've explained before, there are no appreciable differences between the two - Zionism is a child of white supremacism, and carries with it the same hatred for Arabs and blacks, and very often, no shortage of disgust towards Jews as well.

Zionism is not, and never will be even a remotely liberal ideology. This doesn't change even if otherwise liberal people uphold it - it just makes those people bad at being liberals in that respect. That the only defense you have ever mounted for the concept of "liberal zionism" is that a political party in the US pays lip service to it on occasion really just reinforces this point I'm making Dave. If it were liberal in any way you could defend it on those merits rather than with an internally weak bandwagon fallacy. But it's not, and you can't.

[King_David]

12. "Zionism - along with white supremacism"

That certainly does not sound like something you would read any progressive website .

I'm surprised to read it on DU.

If such a thing were said by any Democratic Party staff, official ,candidate etc they would be booted out and rightly so.

But it's very good to hear your thoughts on this --- here on DU.

"Zionism is a child of white supremacism"

( this view most certainly was against the rules on DU2 and sounds pretty hateful on DU3. )

Sickening .

[Shaktimaan]

16. Have you ever considered

That the list of intellectual luminaries and human rights leaders who support Zionism is so long, and as you have such a limited understanding of even the basics of Zionism, that you could be mistaken?

Woodrow Wilson
Dr. Tawfik Hamid, former member of a terror organization and current Islamic thinker and reformer
Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, Director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community
Tashbih Sayyed
Moses montefiore
Chaim Weismann
Albert Einstein
Martin Luther king jr.
Queen Victoria
Napoleon Bonaparte
King Edward VII
President John Adams
President Masaryk of Czechoslovakia
philosopher and historian Benedetto Croce
Henry Dunant (founder of the Red Cross and author of the Geneva Conventions)
scientist and humanitarian Fridtjof Nansen

Why are you so adamant in your refusal to actually learn the true history of Zionism in favor of sound bites and absurd hyperbole? You can lie and troll all you like. It just makes it easier to laugh at your pipe cleaner and glue arguments.

[Scootaloo]

17. Napoleon Bonaparte is a human rights leader?

Tafwik Hamid? Are you fucking kidding me? Is Walid Shoebat on that list as well? If Napoleon made the cut, surely Stalin did as well.

I dunno who / what you're cribbing that list from (its flavor reminds me of masada2000, though) but... really. Tafwik Hamid.

[Shaktimaan]

19. You know what...

You're right. Napoleon obviously wasn't a human rights leader. I included him because he was an interesting world leader and undeniably a visionary in his own right.

That said, you've taken issue with a single individual on a list of over a dozen names. I'm not sure how that in any way refutes my suggestion, which you obviously sidestepped rather than risk spending even a moment's consideration on, even if just to reject it.

You previously admitted to not feeling the need to bother learning the history of either Zionism or the conflict from anything but the least credible sources. Personally, I think you seek out examples of Zionists who author online articles which you know will reinforce your existing beliefs. That way you'll never encounter any facts that might challenge your expectations. If all you look for are racist. Pro theocracy Zionists then that's probably what you'll find.

But the uncomfortable fact remains that there are plenty of undeniably liberal human rights luminaries who were also Zionist. Singling out Napoleon merely illustrates how uncomfortable you are considering every other name on that list; as they're obvious examples that invalidate your inane prejudices.

Oh, and I think the list was culled from a far longer one on Wikipedia. I only included the names I recognized.

[Scootaloo]

23. He also lived and died prior to any solid notion of "Zionism."

And Tafwik Hamid is... well, he's a hoax. There's this whole "Ex-terrorist" industry that seems to exist. Sort of a Coptic / Maronite scam subculture. Show up in the US, tell some churchgoers "I was a terrorist until I found Jesus!" and then rake in the dough. It works because Americans tend to think all Arabs are both Muslims and terrorists by default.

I focus on these two because their inclusion is head-slappingly dumb; John Adams isn't that bright an example either, for the same reason found in the title of this post. It seems clear to me that the list is using the absolutely loosest definition of "Zionism" possible, and from there is only cherry-picking the "good guys" that would then count (though again, with Napoleon and Hamid, that filter seems pretty damned loose as well.) Queen Victoria's another funny inclusion - as is Henry Dunant, given how Israel is in standing violation of those very same Geneva Conventions, in the name of Zionism.

The list you provided is shoddy at best, provides no detail, no context, and contains despots, criminals, people who predate Zionist theory, and in the cases of Moses Montefore and Chaim Weismann at least, persons whose only claim to fame is being a Zionist in the first place. In other cases, such as Albert Einstein, the list contains people who held some level of Zionist belief but which would be unrecognizable as such under the modern rubric of political Zionism.

Finally the whole thing is an attempt at argument from authority. "These famous people believed, so should you!" - I could come up with a much longer list about Roman Catholicism, would you abandon Judaism and take up the true path of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost under the authority of the Bishop of Rome? You're probably no more inclined to do so than I would be, correct? Even if JFK, Simon Bolivar, and Dan Akroyd are all Catholics. I'll bet you'd be especially dubious if I included Napoleon, the Borgias, and each pope in the list.

That way you'll never encounter any facts that might challenge your expectations. If all you look for are racist. Pro theocracy Zionists then that's probably what you'll find.

Interesting commentary on Haaretz there. I think it's more a case of that being the overwhelmingly dominant strain available.

[Shaktimaan]

20. Funny

Zionism is not, and never will be even a remotely liberal ideology.

Duh. Of course not. Zionism, like all national movements, transcends the conservative/liberal spectrum in that it isn't dependent on any specific leanings but rather encompasses all of them. It's like calling an ideology like socialism either liberal or conservative. In a political sense, socialist governments can fall anywhere on the spectrum. It's a big tent.

Is American nationalism liberal or conservative? It's a nonsensical question. Are ideas like democracy or capitalism inherently liberal or conservative?

Zionism is a child of white supremacism, and carries with it the same hatred for Arabs and blacks

You do realize that Israel's decl of independence specifically invites the Arab population to live in and help build Israel as equal citizens, right? Arabs who currently make up 20% of Israel's population. Also that Israel chartered flights to bring Ethiopian Jews to Israel, regardless of the fact that they're black?

[Scootaloo]

26. Here's the trouble...

Duh. Of course not. Zionism, like all national movements, transcends the conservative/liberal spectrum in that it isn't dependent on any specific leanings but rather encompasses all of them. It's like calling an ideology like socialism either liberal or conservative. In a political sense, socialist governments can fall anywhere on the spectrum. It's a big tent.

I explained the difference to LeftishBrit a little while ago, when he asked me if I opposed Scottish nationalism a I do Zionism. The answer was no, simply because it's apples and oranges.

The Scottish independence movement is not limiting Scottishness to membership in the church of Scotland and North European descent. They are not seeking to establish Scotland in the Korean peninsula. They are certainly not imposing this upon the Koreans by force of arms with the backing of world powers.

Zionism, however, did all that - and continues to do so.

That is, Zionism is reliant on violence against and disenfranchisement of "lesser" ethnic groups. Not just to establish itself, but also to maintain that establishment. At least, Zionism as is relevant to the discourse of this forum - please do spare me prattle about spiritual Zionism, or the Zionism Bob Marley wails about, or whatever other BS you've got - you and I both know that when we talk Zionism in I/P, it's the militaristic, political zionism espoused by and represented in the state of Israel.

With this understanding - that it can only be imposed by force - you can see why I refer to Zionism as inherently illiberal. This is a different thing from "conservative," which has its own independent political meaning.

Is American nationalism liberal or conservative? It's a nonsensical question. Are ideas like democracy or capitalism inherently liberal or conservative?

Democracy is a liberal concept. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political one - those concepts have their own set of terms.

You do realize that Israel's decl of independence specifically invites the Arab population to live in and help build Israel as equal citizens, right? Arabs who currently make up 20% of Israel's population. Also that Israel chartered flights to bring Ethiopian Jews to Israel, regardless of the fact that they're black?

Arabs who in 1947 made up 67% of the territory's population. Ethnic cleansing isn't much of a housewarming gift. And yes, Israel chartered flights to bring in Ethiopian Jews. And right now, in the name of "preserving Israel's Jewish character," the same state is making life hell for Africans in Israel, hoping to terrorize them into leaving - and mailing them to motherfucking Uganda, of all places. And tell me, where do the Beta Israel stand in Israel society? Are they equals in all ways? How about the religious angle, is their unique set of beliefs and practices protected and respected by the state of Israel as part of the diversity of Judaism... or does Lithuanian orthodoxy dismiss and ignore it?

[King_David]

34. +1

[King_David]

68. Kicking because someone may have missed this post. nt

[Israeli]

13. with all due respect Scootaloo....

I think you are .

Your comment would have been appropriate if the teacher in question was a liberal zionist ...but he is not a liberal zionist .

[Scootaloo]

14. Maybe you can help me then.

First off, I'm not referring to the teacher, but rather the student and the dolts who rewarded her the First Annual Student Asshole Achievement Award. I'm using "Liberal Zionism" mockingly because, so far as I have been able to tell, liberal Zionism is absolutely identical to right-wing Zionism.

I've admitted in the past this could just be a failing of my perception. I'm not a Zionist. I'm not "in the club" so to speak, and i've never been part of the club. What I see, liberal or right-wing, is a political ideology centered around the assertion that one ethnic group has absolute right, through divine authority and superior firepower, to do as it wishes to another group, in an effort to destroy them and take their territory and property. To my admittedly untrained eye, then, the difference between the two differing philosophies is one of rhetoric rather than principle - one screams "Kill 'em all!" and the other says "Kill as many as we need to!"

It rather reminds me of how protestantism works in the United States. you can have two churches across the street from each other, and they're preaching the same thing, on the same day, from the same book, but as the congregations walk out and see each other they think "those people are completely wrong about everything!" Both can be Baptist churches, the congregations could all be relatives, and they will still insist there are deep and unbridgeable differences between them... which only they can see. To an outsider, it's two congregations who believe all the same things, say the same damn things, act the same way, and are just insisting there's a huge difference in an effort to rationalize there being two churches across the street from each other.

So, maybe you can help me out, since so far as I can tell, you're not shackled hand and foot to this anchor of racist nationalism. What is the damn difference.

[Israeli]

15. I will try ...

" First off, I'm not referring to the teacher, but rather the student and the dolts who rewarded her the First Annual Student Asshole Achievement Award. I'm using "Liberal Zionism" mockingly because, so far as I have been able to tell, liberal Zionism is absolutely identical to right-wing Zionism. "

Its nowhere near identical ..... come on Scootaloo you cant possibly believe that .

It would be on a par of me stating that the Rebublican Tea Party loons are equivilant to those that voted for Obama .

" So, maybe you can help me out, since so far as I can tell, you're not shackled hand and foot to this anchor of racist nationalism. What is the damn difference. "

You dont need me to tell you " What is the damn difference " ....its religion ...our Right wing are no differant than yours .

[Scootaloo]

18. Just remembered this post...

So sorry for the late reply.

If I may I think perhaps you're the one being a little confused. I understand that a person can hold to liberal ideals in general, but still also be a Zionist. Humans are complicated critters, and pretty much one of us could pass an ideological purity test 100% - Christopher Hitchens for example, all round liberal guy... except for when it came to blowing up Muslims, then he was all for the crazy batshit stuff.

So, no, I totally get that someone like say, our buddy David there can have some liberal ideas (I have yet to figure out what his are, but for an example.) and still thump on about being a Zionist. That's clear, no confusion on my part (though I of course suspect some on theirs.)

My argument is that Zionism itself is an inherently illiberal ideology. At least, Zionism as is meaningful to any of the discussion we have here - political Zionism as shown by the state of Israel and its supporters. I'm fully aware that there are many other "varieties" out there but they are, for the most part irrelevant to the current discourse.

So when I ask someone who proclaims themselves to be a "liberal Zionists" what the difference is, I'm not asking about their position on marriage equality, drug legalization, the death penalty, etc. I'm asking them what makes their Zionism different from the Zionism on "the right"? How is the ideology itself different? I frankly couldn't give a shit less if

[Israeli]

21. I'm probably the last person you should be arguing with Scootaloo...

I'm not a Zionist .....I'm a post zionist .

However ... between the Zionist Right and the Zionist Left ... there is a world of difference ...one believes in the State of Israel ... the other in the Land of Israel .
One is for expansion and occupation,..Jewish supremacy ....even for annexation ... at any cost .

(At " any cost " ..... including the assassination of a PM who wanted no part in their dream of a Greater Israel. )

The other Israel ....just wants normalcy Scootaloo...how long do you estimate it will take us compared to how long it took you Americans ?

Michael Ben-Ari and Baruch Marzel are Jewish supremacists ... as is Moshe Feiglin.

All of them , including Bibi , were involved in one way or another in Rabin's assassination .

How did JFK's assassination affect you ???

[Scootaloo]

22. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to clarify my position

The other Israel ....just wants normalcy Scootaloo...how long do you estimate it will take us compared to how long it took you Americans ?

Y'see, that's the frightening thing. We kind of, uhm, y'know, obliterated 90% of the people who were here, imprisoned the rest, all while importing six million human beings as livestock to be raped, beaten, brutalized, and later suppressed at any cost. All of this by design, not as an "oops, we didn't mean to!" As a people it's been four hundred years - as a nation, 238 years - and I would easily argue we're still not "normal."

How did JFK's assassination affect you ???

Me personally? Well, he was assassinated 20 years before I was born... and with the understanding that presidents are generally different faces on the same policies, administration after administration...

[King_David]

24. "22. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to clarify my position"

Ha ,
Your position is crystal clear , no clarification necessary .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[Scootaloo]

25. Strange how you seem perpetually puzzled by it

Must be a problem on the user end.

[King_David]

28. Not puzzled at all

Just surprised to see such an extremist view equating Zionism to White Supremism on a Democratic Party Supporting website ... That's all..

Authored by you on this website.
It deserves "highlighting " as often as an opportunity arises for all to read.

That's the sum total.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[Scootaloo]

29. By all means

I'm actually a little flattered that the only content you seem able to provide for this forum was written by me, in fact. Made all the more amusing by your demonstrated inability to argue against it.

You know if you really want to fan my ass for me, you can go through and find several other posts of mine in the same vein. I know there's at least two where I took the time to explain the logic behind equating Zionism to white nationalism to Shira, for example. Highlight all you want, and make sure you keep up with your incisive and comprehensive "counter-arguments."

[King_David]

32. Oh it wasn't just "white nationalism "

"white supremacism" you said .
Specifically calling Jewish Nationalism a "child" of " white supremacism" actually is beyond the pale.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

It's good for anyone reading these forums to know where people are coming from and what their thinking is when reading these posts so that they may weigh the importance and seriousness of the arguments they read.
For example some posters are so "hyperbolic" here nobody including myself respond to the ridiculous posts ( I am not talking about you here)

But if someone compares The Jewish National movement to " white supremism"....people should know how much "gravity" and "credibility "any future postings hold.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

There is no "counter argument " to this type of
I would never try argue on the many many websites out there espousing this.... Just surprised to have found it on DU.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[Scootaloo]

38. David, you're becoming a self-parody

it's especially funny since we're still in the same thread as the post you're linking to

Are you able to tell me why a violent ideology that holds white people are entitled to conduct ethnic cleansing to preservetheir ethnic "purity" while imposing race-based rule against "lesser" people through force of arms is substantially different from a violent ideology that holds that Jewish people are entitled to conduct ethnic cleansing to preserve their ethnic "purity" while imposing race-based rule against "lesser" people through force of arms?

I mean you disagree - I think, you're not exactly being clear there - so surely you have a reason... Or is this just your way of covering your privates after having your fig leaf snatched away?

[King_David]

40. Sorry I don't argue this on ANY

Websites that would post that Zionism = Racism or White Supremism or Nazism or any other such epithets.

It's simply not a serious debate or argument.

Usually on the extreme right wing websites it's considered hate and bigotry and even the UN after retracting their hateful "Zionism is Racism" considers such too.

No serious commentator on either side of the issue would ever debate the "Zionism
( Jewish National Project) is "White Supremism" "Racism" "Nazism"... It's just way beyond the pale....

But in case anyone is wondering , it can be found spelled out on DU here :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[Scootaloo]

44. Now hold up just a second...

Websites that would post that Zionism = Racism or White Supremism or Nazism or any other such epithets.

Naziism is a particular political philosophy. Zionism has its fascist elements to be sure (as you make abundantly clear over and over again) but is quite distinct from Naziism as a particular ideology. You might have noticed I take people to task when they make that particular comparison - at least when they make it in broad strokes, particular policies or actions can be compared.

Really, you could try for a little accuracy.

Anyway.

I'm curious Dave. Where do you think i got the notion to compare the two ideologies? I'll bet you think I was just looking for some shit to throw at Zionism and picked this out of a hat, don't you? Do tell, I'm curious about your notion.

[King_David]

47. Who knows what motivates you,

The disgusting comparasin was all yours in this post here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[Scootaloo]

51. Oh, do you? Let's hear it, then.

[Israeli]

30. I never realized you were so ...

young , around the same age as my kids .

Well Rabin's assassination affected us deeply , my whole family was there that night ....we had such high hopes , we were sure peace was just around the corner .

If Rabin had lived we would not be having this conversation Scootaloo ... of that I am convinced.

[King_David]

33. Well Scootaloo considers Rabins ideology to have been

"White Supremism"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[Scootaloo]

36. And yet I can see he was attempting to pull the politics of his country in a different direction

Think of it this way - Abraham Lincoln was a white supremacist. He rejected the notion of "negro equality," and favored the notion of shipping them back to Africa - even as he opposed slavery. When it came down to enact politics hiowever, he set his own personal beliefs to the side and went for what worked best overall.

Human beings are fairly complex creatures, Dave. It's sad that you choose to live life as a two-dimensional caricature.

[King_David]

39. Rabin was pulling away from Zionism?

Or what you call "White Supremism"?
LOL
CLUELESS !!!

That's all.




I think you should take Shaktimaan's advice and do some reading on this topic .

[Scootaloo]

42. As I said, you're basically a cartoon character

You even make your arguments through flipbook animations. How peculiar.

I think you should learn about political philosophy in general, David. How they grow, develop, change, alter, and are expressed differently through different politicians and circumstances.

Take my example of Lincoln. he he;d a particular set of beliefs - namely that blacks were inferior to whites, and that the races should be separate - yet after the abolition of slavery he oversaw the first actualized attempts at integration of the races in the US. He didn't abandon his own beliefs (I don't think, we'll probably never know) but he did take a different tack from them when actually performing his role as leader of the nation.

Rabin was a war criminal piece of shit. He was a nasty little racist asshole. And yet he was able to set aside some of the ideas he was lugging around with him - that Jews had a right to take from Arabs, to kill Arabs, to pillage them and humiliate them - that is found in the core expressions of Zionism - not because he abandoned those ideas (maybe he did - again we'll never know) but because he recognized following those ideas was causing bad shit to happen. As a result he was depicted as a Nazi and finally murdered by more ideologically pure Zionists - as Israeli points out, it's not likely Amir was a "lone nut."

Maybe Rabin could have ushered in a new "flavor" of Zionism. Maybe had he not been gunned down, you and I wouldn't be having these little sessions where i attempt to educate a mossy block.

[King_David]

43. Not quite sure what that was all about

Last edited Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:40 AM - Edit history (1)

But after this post where you equate The Jewish National project with white supremism I'm not sure you can be taken seriously on an IP forum .


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[Scootaloo]

45. ...Hasn't EVERY superman been white?

I mean aside from the time when he was blue.

[Israeli]

46. Wow Scootaloo...

" Rabin was a war criminal piece of shit. He was a nasty little racist asshole. "

He wasnt ... but I'm beginning to get what you are.

[pelsar]

48. congrats....

takes some time to get a clear view.....but this is a good example of what the western left believes.....

" Rabin was a war criminal piece of shit. He was a nasty little racist asshole. "

[Israeli]

52. I hear you pelsar....

Damned if you do ....and damned if you dont .

and they wonder why we close ranks ?

its not anti semitism tho is it ? .....its anti Israel..ism .

[Violet_Crumble]

54. I'm not getting it, Israeli...

I agree with what Scoot said in his post...

Rabin was a war criminal piece of shit. He was a nasty little racist asshole. And yet he was able to set aside some of the ideas he was lugging around with him - that Jews had a right to take from Arabs, to kill Arabs, to pillage them and humiliate them - that is found in the core expressions of Zionism - not because he abandoned those ideas (maybe he did - again we'll never know) but because he recognized following those ideas was causing bad shit to happen.

I read a warts and all biography of him, and while his epiphany made him someone I'd admire from that point, before that he wasn't someone to be admired. I'm not sure how pointing that out or discussing whether it was out of pragmatism makes someone anti-Semitic. Rabin reminds me (apart from the being assassinated part) of a former RW prime minister here who blocked supply (for our American readers, think Tea Party nutters shutting down the govt last year), caused a constitutional crisis, took power, and since his retirement from politics has swung totally to the Left, so much so that he was kicked out of the party he formerly led. I've got no problems with saying he was a total conservative arsewipe before his change of stance. Same with Rabin

[Israeli]

59. You read a " biography of him "....

....well I knew him ....and I have a great radar for racists ....and I'm telling you that he was NOT... " a nasty little racist asshole " .

I never said it was " anti-Semitic " .... nor is it anti Zionism .... its a bald faced lie for a start .

Rabin was not a conservative anything Violet_Crumble ...he was never part of the Israeli Right ....and he never swung totally to the Left....he was a Centralist .

You dont get it when someone uses that kind of language to describe someone that I loved and admired ??

My apologies for being an Israeli ...Scootaloo obviously thinks we are all nasty little racist assholes ... you will forgive me if I return the favor .

[Scootaloo]

64. "Scootaloo obviously thinks we are all nasty little racist assholes"

No, I think such people effectively dominate the discourse in your nation, and that a fair portion of the remainder go with it for the benefits. I've compared the situation to the US south in the 1950's, with active rabid segregationists leading the charge, and more-or-less indifferent whites coasting in their wake because segregation gave them benefits and a sense of power, even if they had no personal stance against blacks.

But in the south, as in Israel, there are very definitely people who take a stand against this sort of shit. I've noted this repeatedly, Israeli, though usually with the lament that such people are denigrated and derided within the society and are no closer to the halls o power than the American left is (and of course, these Israelis get the ultimate epithet of "leftist" so there's another bridge there.)

As for Rabin... I'm not forgiving towards someone who engages in the sort of shit he got into during his IDF career. i can acknowledge he had a change of heart somewhere along the line, but that doesn't wipe the slate clean. If you issue orders to purge cities of their civilian inhabitants, there's no backsies. If you look at demonstrators and tell your command to shatter their legs, arms, and hands, you don't get to say "oops." If you conduct massive bombardment of civilian populations in a deliberate attempt to create refugees, you don't get to be a hero in my book. If that offends you... well, tough. Inflicting carnage on civilians offends me, and I'm going to value their lives more than your feelings.

[pelsar]

84. its some kind of mix...

for some its simple anti semitism..others anti israeli..and others anti west

I'll tell u what i have learned here:
i call it the "land religion" its a progressive invention.

basically its an arbitrary line that defines who is and who isn't the "native" (indigenous). Once your defined as the "native" you get super rights. The first right is "land ownership". Your specific genes defines if u get to rule the land or not.

this was once considered racist, but no longer. (though i still do)

The "chosen" group gets to rule and this is the single most important issue: they get to rule, and the progressives will support them on this, no matter the consequences. Once they rule, they then have have the rights to do what they want with their citizens, hang homosexuals, kill those of color etc with at best a few verbal protests from the progressives, but no actual action that compares to them helping create this racist state. Civil rights etc is a secondary issue, never as important as the creation of the racist state.
___

All arabs that immigrated to Palestine are considered indigenous, including those that came after your grandparents as they have the "right" genes...hence u and your whole family are simply invaders and guilty of theft.
___________

anyway that is my take on it...it difficult to receive straight answers here

your being way to easy on them here

[Israeli]

86. I'm being .... " way to easy on them here " ....

like your being " way to easy on " shira and King_David and Co ???

you dont have the balls to stand up against their bullshit pelsar....Gush Shalom does .

[Scootaloo]

56. As opposed to people like you Pelsar, who believed in this:

I don't think the guy was even close to being a saint. But I'm not a member of the movement that gunned him down, am I?

[King_David]

62. and you believe pelsar to be ? Or that he believes Rabin was a Nazi?

Best get to know what the people posting here believe before making such ludicrous hateful remarks.

I can only echo Shaktimaan , you def need read up more about the topic before making yourself to be the authority you seem to think you are.

[King_David]

69. Kicking because someone may have missed this post. nt

[pelsar]

82. i guess its easier to make up stuff......

its makes for simpler views on life......

i could ask u to show where in any of my posts over the years i claimed that rabin was some kind of nazi, but we all know that you wont find anything and you'll have to simply make up more stuff to keep it going

dare you attempt to back up your claim?

didn't think so..just another "courageous internet warrior"

[King_David]

83. Yes it's unbelievable the fabrications from her.

Big and small , benign and hateful .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=60448

[azurnoir]

49. with all due respect a question why did you feel it nessasary to paraphrase the poster

you're replying to? He did not leave his quote about Rabin at the small part you choose to quote-here it is in full, the part that's bolded is what you chose to leave out

Rabin was a war criminal piece of shit. He was a nasty little racist asshole. And yet he was able to set aside some of the ideas he was lugging around with him - that Jews had a right to take from Arabs, to kill Arabs, to pillage them and humiliate them - that is found in the core expressions of Zionism - not because he abandoned those ideas (maybe he did - again we'll never know) but because he recognized following those ideas was causing bad shit to happen. As a result he was depicted as a Nazi and finally murdered by more ideologically pure Zionists - as Israeli points out, it's not likely Amir was a "lone nut."

now as to the first part please answer this was Rabin the deputy military commander that oversaw the expulsion of Arabs from Lydda and Ramle? I think we both know the answer and it is on that Scoot IMO bases his quote and his actual point was that Rabin overcame that

[King_David]

65. Not really, you do not speak for Scoot, she can speak for herself,

Like this gem of a post here, where The Jewish National Project aka Zionism is said to be White Supremism.

That is a gem to be found on DU, imagine that.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[azurnoir]

66. In the comment that is actually in question, not the one you chose he did agree with what I said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=58498

also hasn't Scootaloo corrected you about his gender in the past?

however I must say that the entire exchange on the subject of Rabin has been eye opening for me

[Scootaloo]

50. As Azurnoir says...

Rabin participated in ethnic cleansing, attacking and expelling the populations of Lydda and Ramle. Not just in 1948, but again in 1967, when he ordered the destruction of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou. In 1988 he ordered Israeli forces to restore order in the occupied territories via force and beatings, recommending that Israeli soldiers break the arms, legs, and hands of protestors... which the soldiers did. In 1993 he ordered an indiscriminate assault against southern Lebanon, probably the largest operation since the initial invasion, driving over 500,000 people from southern Lebanon, including 90% of the population of Tyre.

I'm not someone prone to airbrushing out the warts of someone just 'cause they got assassinated. Lincoln had his own patch of war crimes under his belt. Kennedy sank us into Vietnam and damn near set off nuclear war because of his rabid anticommunism. And Rabin was a war criminal who made a point of targeting Arab civilians for destruction and mass reprisals.

I'm also willing to acknowledge his accomplishments and moves towards a better world in spite of that anchor dragging him down, as well.

Like I tried to get through to Dave, people are complex.

[azurnoir]

53. well to be fair

perhaps being assassinated does lend itself to ignoring the bad in favor of the good-we see it here too, think of the the way the Kennedy's both John and Robert are lionized as heroes when in all truth were they in office today, and judged by the standards we hold our Democratic politicians to they'd be near driven from office due to their extra-marital shenanigans, think John Edwards or Anthony Weiner for example

[Scootaloo]

55. I suppose so

Not every assassinated leader is a King or Gandhi, though. Most are a Garfield, at best.

[azurnoir]

57. Don't take that as any back pedaling on my earlier comment however

I meant exactly what I said, I was pointing out something that to be truthful has mystified me

[Scootaloo]

58. Not at all, I was just agreeing

Assassinations tend to whitewash history... The murdered becomes a martyr, and martyrs are of course without blemish according to their admirers. This is why assassination just isn't a good political tool (especially it it was obviously an assassination.)

Anwar Sadat, for another - and completely relevant - example. Nasty piece of work, but there are people who have washed out all those stains simply because he was gunned down by sociopaths.

[Israeli]

60. sure Scootaloo....

" without blemish "

.......

http://www.hagalil.com/israel/rabin/israel/rabin.htm

I protest. I want the real Rabin back, the Rabin who called the settlers "propellers" (he really meant "ventilators", an instrument that turns around itself, making noise and not producing anything.) The Rabin who said "I am ready to obtain a visa for going to Gush Etzion" (near Hebron). The Rabin who said "We did not come to an empty country". I hope that we shall remember this Rabin, and only him, without Kippah and nonsense, on the real anniversary day, November 4.

BTW ... shira sent me a PM last night, first time she has ever contacted me directly , made me smile ....she seems to be enjoying our little tiff , if your reading this shira I'm not about to answer you and please dont ever expect me to take your side after everything you have had to say about the Israeli Left on here.

[Scootaloo]

63. Uri Averny makes a good case for Rabin having had a legitimate change of heart

That's good to know, thanks for the insight.

[Israeli]

70. you are welcome Scootaloo...

and I apologies for my emotional reaction .

If you want to understand us ....understand this ....:

The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in November 1995 affected her deeply. While Aloni continued to carry out her ministerial duties, she found herself increasingly at odds both with his replacement, Shimon Peres, and with many of the people she had recruited to Meretz. She therefore decided not to seek another term, retiring from the Knesset on the eve of the 1996 elections and distancing herself from the new Meretz leadership under the aegis of Yossi Sarid.

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/aloni-shulamit

Rabin's assassination changed us Scootaloo .....it was a wake up call .

[Scootaloo]

81. While I understand, sadly I can't relate

I'm one of those cynical Americans who just can't bring themselves to be so invested in a politician, I suppose.

If you don't mind my asking, what do you mean by "it was a wake-up call"?

[shira]

67. Hi Israeli...

Whether you wish to take my side or not is irrelevant now since it's fairly obvious that all of us - whether zionist, post-zionist, Meretz supporters or whatever - are all being lumped together as nasty, racist, conservative, rightwingers here.

So you're on my side by default, according to our anti-Israel friends here. We're all the same!

And that's not anti-Israel, btw...

I highly doubt any of Israel's non-Jews would be described in the same manner here.

[Israeli]

71. Shalom shira ...

" all of us " .....that's anti semitism shira ....Scootaloo is an anti Zionist .

You might be under the illusion that " We're all the same " ....but I hold no such illusions .

I reacted emotionally to Rabin being called a racist ...same way I reacted to Shulamit Aloni being called a liar :

ref : http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=43772

Never on your side shira ....its like asking me if I would ever be on the side of Daniella Weiss .

ref :
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113440478#post11

[shira]

72. In the eyes of Hamas, Hezbollah, BDS.... we're both "Zionists"

They lump us all together, just as all of us "Zionists" were lumped together 70 years ago - whether we were socialists, capitalists, marxist, rightwingers - none of that mattered. "We" are considered the enemy.

[Israeli]

73. when it comes down to you and me shira ....

there is no " we " .

You are American ... I am Israeli .

You are a Zionist .... I am a post zionist .

I represent Shulamit Aloni .... you represent Daniella Weiss .

I consider those that were complicit in the assassination of Yetzchak Rabin to be my enemy.
Not only because they murdered someone I loved, respected and admired ....becuase they murdered Peace .

[shira]

74. You keep pretending I'm somehow an enemy of Rabin...

Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:47 PM - Edit history (1)

You couldn't be more wrong. Sadly, he's viewed today as a conservative, rightwing enemy by your fellow leftwing friends.

And Daniella Weiss along with her Kahanist friends in no way represent my views. Kahanists are terrorists.

=====

I understand that you only see black/white and nothing in-between. People who don't perfectly buy into your views are automatically viewed as extreme rightwing enemies. This makes things easy for you.

You don't know who your enemies really are. That's a genuine blind-spot for you.

[Israeli]

75. pull the other one shira ....

I wasn't born yesterday

Do I have to search your posts for your comments regarding Machsom Watch ???

Grandmothers on Guard

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2004/11/grandmothers-guard?page=2

"" Nursing her cappuccino in a somewhat seedy Tel Aviv café, Yehudit Keshet, a cofounder of Machsom Watch, vows to stand up to Weiss' threats. "She is trying to frighten us and stop us from doing our work, but she won't succeed," says the 61-year-old, who has the pleasantly tousled look of an NYU professor between classes. "Of course I have a desire to punch them in the mouth, but it's not productive," she says. "It's better just to ignore them, to say, 'You're meaningless. You are nothing to us.'"

Keshet knows something about the religious underpinnings of Weiss' crusade against the checkpoint monitors. She was born into an Orthodox Jewish family in South Wales, made aliya -- a migration to Israel -- as a teenager in 1958, and settled there permanently in 1974. She was an observant Jew and a Zionist, but became increasingly radicalized in the wake of the 1995 assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by a right-wing religious zealot. She joined Bat Shalom, a women's group that advocates withdrawal from the territories and that, along with a Palestinian counterpart, runs Jerusalem Link, a cultural series through which both peoples can "share Jerusalem."

[shira]

76. What does machsom watch have to do with any of this?

Speak clearly, no riddles.

Edit:

On 2nd thought, nevermind. You have enough to worry about with 'friends' who see you as a conservative, rightwing, shitty racist zionist. With friends like that, you don't need enemies.

Take care.

Last Edit:

Labeling Rabin a nasty, racist, rightwing, conservative POS should hardly come as a surprise from "friends" who see all Zionists that way, going back to Ben Gurion and Golda Meir. It was just a matter of time before we see that they chew and spit Rabin out just the same....

[azurnoir]

77. shira no one here see's Israeli that way

I know it's not what you want, but it's simply untrue

[shira]

78. Pull the other leg, Az.... If Rabin was a war criminal POS, nasty little racist asshole....

...who was RW and conservative, then what does that make those here who love, respect, or honor his memory?

[azurnoir]

79. well if you say so that's your opinion

and at one point in time those things were true, 70 odd years ago Rabin openly participated in the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs from Lydda and Ramle, in his later years he obviously changed, he accepted Yasir Arafat's recognition of Israel's right to exist, as the premise for Peace as opposed to Netanyahu's demand for recognition as a Jewish State- which do you agree with?

the difference is that we ProPalestinians are willing to forgive we do not feel the need to go back almost 3/4 of a century or even a decade to defend our positions..........

as to what was said between Israeli and another poster that was settled quite nicely , perhaps you should read further on this thread

In the following period he was the deputy commander of Operation Danny, the largest scale operation to that point, which involved four IDF brigades. The cities of Ramle and Lydda were captured, as well as the major airport in Lydda, as part of the operation. Following the capture of the two towns there was an exodus of their Arab population. Rabin signed the expulsion order, which included the following,
"... 1. The inhabitants of Lydda must be expelled quickly without attention to age.

This page was last modified on 27 February 2014 at 21:40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin

[azurnoir]

80. Thank you n/t

[pelsar]

85. but your not...

people are complex.


your simplistic views of zionism as rascim without any variations makes you the simplistic of the black and white cartoon characters.

[Scootaloo]

87. Ideologies aren't people

I trust you understand such a basic fact that an idea is not a person?

[King_David]

61. Took you long enough. nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

27. Time moves at a different rate than it did in the 1800s.

Since the world is more technological/social/societal advanced 100 years easily compresses into ten; so with luck normalcy will come sooner than later...without an internal civil war.

As to Bibi et al involved in Rabin's assassination, I would hope not, but opportunists make the strangest bedfellows.

[Israeli]

31. we came close to civil war ...

after Rabin's assassination .....Sharon knew he would get the backing of the majority to get the settlers out of the Gush becuase he knew how much they were hated . Kadima's success was based on the rejection of the followers of a ' Greater Israel ' and of Bibi who backed them up to the hilt .

I'm not suprised you Americans know nothing about it Daneel ..... the victors always re-write history .

look :

"" LAST WEDNESDAY was the 16th anniversary of his assassination, according to the Hebrew calendar.

The event was marked in Israeli schools by speeches and special lessons. What these citizens of tomorrow learned was that it is very bad to murder a prime minister. And that, more or less, was that.

Not a word about why he was killed. Certainly nothing about the community the assassin belonged to, or what campaign of hatred and incitement led to the murder.

The Ministry of Education is now firmly in the hands of a Likud minister, and one of the most extreme. But the trend is not confined to the education system.

In Israel it is practically impossible to obtain a picture of Rabin shaking the hand of Arafat. Rabin and King Hussein? As many post cards as you might wish. But Rabin’s peace with Jordan was an unimportant matter, like the US peace with Canada. The Oslo agreement, however, was a historic watershed.

Only people branded as “extreme leftists” – one of the worst insults these days – dare to raise the obvious questions about the assassination: Who? Why?

There is tacit agreement that the only person responsible was the actual assassin: Yigal Amir, the son of Yemenite Jews, a former settler and a student of a religious university.

Would he have acted without the blessing of one or more rabbis? Most certainly not.

Amir was led to do what he did by months of intense incitement. An unprecedented campaign of hatred dominated the public sphere. Posters showed Rabin in the uniform of an SS officer. Religious groups publicly condemned him to death in medieval ceremonies. Demonstrators in front of his private home shouted: “With blood and fire / we shall remove Rabin!”

In the most (in)famous demonstration, in the center of Jerusalem, a coffin marked “Rabin” was paraded around, while Netanyahu looked on from a balcony, in the company of other rightist leaders.

And most tellingly: not a single important right-wing or religious voice was raised against this murderous campaign.

By general tacit agreement, nothing of all this was mentioned this week. Why? Because it would not be nice. It would “split the nation”. Honorable citizens do not do this kind of thing.

Rabin himself cannot be acquitted of all blame. After the incredibly courageous act of recognizing the PLO (and thereby the Palestinian people) and shaking hands with Arafat, he did not rush forward to create an irreversible historic fact of peace, but hesitated, dithered, held back and allowed the forces of war and racism to regroup and counter-attack.

When the Kiryat Arba settler Baruch Goldstein carried out his massacre in the “Cave of Machpela”, Rabin had a golden opportunity to clear out the nest of fascist settlers in Hebron. He shrank back from taking on the settlers. The settlers did not shrink back from killing him.""

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1321022639/

and here :

http://mycorrectviews.tumblr.com/post/31922070832/the-government-of-israel-announces-with-shock

"" The whole process of incitement and murder, followed by further incitement and electoral victory, resembles a putsch, rather than simple political excess. The junta may be ensconced in power, but the truth cannot be forever suppressed ""

[Scootaloo]

37. Well, I have to say it sounds more plausibl...

Than a certain other poster's belief that it was entirely Shimon Perez and his invisible undetectable robot assassin.

Hadn't Amir and his brothers plotted and attempted assassinations of Rabin before the successful one as well?

[King_David]

35. +1

[King_David]

41. "Its nowhere near identical ..... come on Scootaloo you cant possibly believe that . "

Oh she believes far worse things than that .

She believes Zionism to be
"White Supremism"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842

[sabbat hunter]

6. this award sounds as real

as the reward for excellence in excellism that Homer Simpson once got.

A made up award that is completely BS.

It does show the mindset of the nutty settlers though.
I mean lets face it some of those supporting this were followers of Kahane.

I am glad that mainstream Israelis are not like this.

They just need to vote that way at the next election.