Israel can clear Mideast of nukes, it just won't

[Jefferson23]

If Israel accepts an invitation to the conference in Helsinki, it will have an opportunity to move ahead on a deal: comprehensive nuclear disarmament in exchange for comprehensive peace, says researchers' position paper.

By Akiva Eldar

The Iranian professor burst out laughing when I showed him the report on the Haaretz website about President Shimon Peres' call for the Iranian people to bring down the ayatollahs' regime. His neighbor at the table, also a senior lecturer at the University of Tehran, looked annoyed and scoffed: "Don't you think it takes a lot of temerity to sit next to the Palestinian prime minister, whose people have been living for years under Israeli occupation - and call on another people to rise up against its elected government?"

The conversation took place during a seminar in Barcelona at the end of January. It was one of a series of preliminary conferences initiated by the Peace Research Institute Frankfurt, in cooperation with the Norwegian government, the Friedrich Ebert Foundation and the Protestant churches of Hesse and Nassau, in preparation for a regional conference on Middle Eastern disarmament of weapons of mass destruction. The event is to take place in Finland later this year.

At the request of the organizers, the identity of the two Iranians - like that of the other participants (from Yemen, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, the United States and Europe ) - was kept under wraps. However, they did not keep secret the fact that four Israelis (among them a former senior member of the intelligence community ) had been invited to participate in the discussions about lifting the threat of nuclear weapons and other types of WMDs.

snip* The attendees were presented with a position paper written by Prof. Bernd Kubbig, a project director at the institute, and another institute member, Christian Weidlich, in cooperation with Prof. Gawdat Bahgat, an American of Egyptian origin, and Col. (res. ) Dr. Ephraim Kam, deputy head of Israel's Institute for National Security Studies.

remainder: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-can-clear-mideast-of-nukes-it-just-won-t-1.411272

[1ProudAtheist]

1. Those

right-wing zionists will undoubtedly cause the war that ends the world. Religious extremism at it's most extreme.

[Shaktimaan]

19. What right-wing zionists do you mean?

If you think that anyone in Israel represents the MOST extreme religious extremism then you really need to get out more.

right-wing zionists will undoubtedly cause the war that ends the world.

Of course. Because you don't like them? Or did you have a real reason?

[teddy51]

2. It certainly would be nice to see, but I doubt if Israel would be willing

to go along with something like nuke removal. Seems like they only know how to war with other nations. If it weren't for the US providing them with both weapons and aide, it just might be much more peaceful in the ME.

[Shaktimaan]

20. Ha!

Seems like they only know how to war with other nations.

Not counting the nations they are at peace with, obis.

If it weren't for the US providing them with both weapons and aide, it just might be much more peaceful in the ME.

That is such a weird statement. It's like saying, "If it hadn't been for czechoslovakia perhaps Europe wouldn't have been so violent in the 20th century." Comparing the death toll of all of the wars happening in the MidEast to JUST the ones that Israel is directly involved in may open your eyes a bit. Even if you considered which country has been oppressing and killing the Palestinians to the largest degree you would find quite a few other states occupying the top of the list before you finally got down to Israel further down. Heck, Jordan killed more Palestinians in a month during Black September than Israel has killed in 65 years. And just try and imagine what the death tolls looked like during the Iran/Iraq war... there were a million casualties in 8 years. A MILLION! (There have been about 16,000 in the I/P conflict over 64 years, btw.)

[holdencaufield]

3. Where is the conclusive proof that Israel has nuclear weapons?

Yes, I know everyone SAYS they have them. But everyone said Saddam Hussein had WMD's.

Has Israel said they have them? Have they threatened overtly to use them?

[azurnoir]

4. what was Mordechai Vanunu kidnapped and imprisoned for then?

In late 1985, Vanunu took a backpacking trip through the Far East, eventually settling in Australia and becoming a taxi driver in Sydney. He renounced Judaism and converted to Christianity, joining the Anglican Church of Australia.[1][17][19] In June 1985, he met Oscar Guerrero, a freelance journalist from Colombia. Guerrero persuaded Vanunu to sell his story, claiming that his story and photographs were worth up to $1 million. After failing to interest Newsweek, Guerrero approached the British Sunday Times, and within a few days, Vanunu was interviewed by Sunday Times journalist Peter Hounam. In early September 1986, Vanunu flew to London with Hounam, and in violation of his non-disclosure agreement, revealed to the Sunday Times his knowledge of the Israeli nuclear programme, including photographs he had secretly taken at the Dimona site.

<snip>

The Israeli government decided to capture Vanunu, but determined to avoid harming its good relationship with Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, and not wanting risk confrontation with British intelligence, determined Vanunu should be persuaded to leave British territory under his own volition. Through constant surveillance, the Mossad found that Vanunu had become lonely and eager for female companionship. Masquerading as an American tourist called "Cindy", Israeli Mossad agent Cheryl Bentov befriended Vanunu, and on 30 September persuaded him to fly to Rome with her on a holiday.[23] This relation has been perceived as a classic honey trap operation whereby an intelligence agent employs seduction to gain the target's trust—a practice which has been officially sanctioned in Israel.[24][25][26] On the day Bentov met Vanunu, the Israeli Navy electronic surveillance ship INS Noga was ordered to the Italian coast. The Noga, disguised as a merchant ship, was fitted with electronic surveillance equipment and satellite communications gear in its superstructure, and was primarily used to intercept communications traffic in Arab ports. As the ship was heading from Antalya in Turkey back to Haifa, the captain was instructed to change course for Italy and anchor off the coast in an encrypted message. The Noga arrived off the Italian port city of La Spezia and anchored in international waters, just outside Italian waters.

Once in Rome, the Vanunu and Bentov took a taxi to an apartment in the old quarter of the city, where three waiting Mossad operatives overpowered Vanunu and injected him with a paralyzing drug. Later that night, a white van hired by the Israeli embassy arrived, and Vanunu was carried to it on a stretcher. The ambulance drove out of Rome, down the coast to a pre-arranged point. Vanunu was transferred to a waiting speedboat, which then rendezvoused with the waiting Noga anchored off the coast. Vanunu was brought onto the Noga in total secrecy. The crew were told to assemble in the ship's common room and lock the door as Vanunu and the Mossad agents were taken aboard. The ship then set sail for Israel. During the journey, Vanunu was kept in a cabin, with Mossad agents taking turns guarding him. None of the Noga's crew were allowed to look at the prisoner. On 6 October, the ship anchored off the coast of Israel between Tel Aviv and Haifa, where it was met by a smaller vessel which Vanunu was transferred to. The vessel then took Vanunu to Israel.[23][27][28]



This page was last modified on 4 February 2012 at 20:04.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

[holdencaufield]

5. I don't know...

... all the facts behind Vanunu's arrest -- and I'm positive that you and the Sunday Times don't either.

[azurnoir]

7. what Vanunu was charged with is in the link I posted

but here from the same link

Vanunu was put on trial in Israel on charges of treason and espionage. The trial, held in secret, took place in the Jerusalem District Court before Chief Justice Eliahu Noam and Judges Zvi Tal and Shalom Brener. Vanunu was represented by Avigdor Feldman, an Israeli civil and human rights lawyer. He was not permitted contact with the media but he wrote the details of his abduction (or "hijacking", as he put it) on the palm of his hand, and while being transported he held his hand against the van's window so that waiting journalists could get the information.

[shaayecanaan]

18. Thats the same logic used by holocaust deniers and 911 truthers...

you simply raise the standard of proof so high that no evidence will ever suffice for establishing that something is true.

So in your eyes, the fact that Israel's prime minister has admitted that Israel has nukes is meaningless. Likewise, so is their co-operation with South Africa and France in developing nuclear weapons, or the fact that Mordecai Vanunu took photos of nuclear bomb assemblies in Dimona, a full-cycle reactor that has been operating for forty years but has not generated so much as a single kilowatt-hour of civilian nuclear energy.

Just like holocaust deniers, there comes a time when supposed "doubts" become so far-fetched and fanciful that no reasonable person would put any stock in them any more.

[Jefferson23]

6. Calls for Olmert to resign after nuclear gaffe

snip* Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, was yesterday trying to fend off accusations of ineptitude and calls for his resignation after he accidentally acknowledged for the first time that Israel had nuclear weapons.

After decades in which Israel has stuck to a doctrine of nuclear ambiguity, Mr Olmert let slip during an interview in Germany that Israel did indeed have weapons of mass destruction.


He told Germany's Sat.1 channel on Monday evening: "Iran, openly, explicitly and publicly, threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons, as America, France, Israel and Russia?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/13/israel

[azurnoir]

8. Lol thanks I had forgotten about that one n/t

[Jefferson23]

9. hee hee

[holdencaufield]

11. So... because a politician said so?

You can't test a nuke anywhere on the planet without it being monitored. No one has ever detected an Israeli nuclear weapons test.

[Jefferson23]

12. It's been a public secret and no one told you.

National security adviser Uzi Arad, in comments to Haaretz newspaper, appeared to allude to what is widely believed to be Israel's own nuclear arsenal and a standing policy of "mutually assured destruction" (MAD). He warned other countries they could bring about their own devastation if they launched an attack.

Israel has never confirmed it has atomic arms.

In excerpts on Haaretz's English-language website of an interview to be published on Friday, Arad said he feared that if Iran became a nuclear power, five or six other states in the Middle East would follow suit. He called such a prospect a "nightmare" for Israel.

"The defensive might we have must be improved and become tremendously powerful, and create a situation in which no one will dare to realize the ability to harm us," Arad said.

"And if they do dare, we will exact a full price, so that they too will not survive."

Israel has three German-made submarines that are widely assumed to carry nuclear missiles.

One of the submarines sailed from the Mediterranean, via the Suez Canal, to Israel's Red Sea port of Eilat last week, in what officials called a signal to Iran of the long reach of its arsenal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/07/09/us-israel-iran-idUSL962380020090709

here too: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

[holdencaufield]

13. "widely believed...widely assumed" NT

[Jefferson23]

14. Well. I'm glad you're so skeptical..the ME is safer for it now. n/t

[holdencaufield]

15. I believe the Middle East is safer...

... if Israel actually HAS nuclear weapons -- especially safer for Jews.

But, it's difficult to use the FACT that Israel has nuclear weapons as a justification for Iran having them when there's no actual proof they exist -- only conjecture and consensus.

If you recall, Iraq was invaded because of the conjecture and consensus that they had chemical weapons and you can see how that worked out.

Do you agree that conjecture and consensus are sufficient grounds for a nuclear Iran?

[Jefferson23]

16. They do have them, so you're all set.

I think Israel's policy of ambiguity has garnered the intended result.

I mean it's 2012, and you're looking for more, "proof"....oh well. I'm not
aware pro-Israeli posters here deny they exist..I could be wrong.

Iraq, there were more than enough reports the WMD claim was bullshit, those
in power went along with King George due in part to a great deal of fear mongering
after 9/11..fear of looking weak on the "terrorists"..gotta keep Americans safe.

[polly7]

10. Imo, it's been pretty common knowledge for a long time.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

"There followed two decades in which the United States, through a combination of benign neglect, erroneous analysis, and successful Israeli deception, failed to discern first the details of Israel's nuclear program. As early as 8 December 1960, the CIA issued a report outlining Dimona's implications for nuclear proliferation, and the CIA station in Tel Aviv had determined by the mid-1960s that the Israeli nuclear weapons program was an established and irreversible fact.

United States inspectors visited Dimona seven times during the 1960s, but they were unable to obtain an accurate picture of the activities carried out there, largely due to tight Israeli control over the timing and agenda of the visits. The Israelis went so far as to install false control room panels and to brick over elevators and hallways that accessed certain areas of the facility. The inspectors were able to report that there was no clear scientific research or civilian nuclear power program justifying such a large reactor - circumstantial evidence of the Israeli bomb program - but found no evidence of "weapons related activities" such as the existence of a plutonium reprocessing plant.

Although the United States government did not encourage or approve of the Israeli nuclear program, it also did nothing to stop it. Walworth Barbour, US ambassador to Israel from 1961-73, the bomb program's crucial years, primarily saw his job as being to insulate the President from facts which might compel him to act on the nuclear issue, alledgedly saying at one point that "The President did not send me there to give him problems. He does not want to be told any bad news." After the 1967 war, Barbour even put a stop to military attach�s' intelligence collection efforts around Dimona. Even when Barbour did authorize forwarding information, as he did in 1966 when embassy staff learned that Israel was beginning to put nuclear warheads in missiles, the message seemed to disappear into the bureaucracy and was never acted upon."

[Ken Burch]

24. Give it a rest.

Everybody knows they have nukes. That what Dimona was for.

You don't have to follow "the line" that blindly.

[sabbat hunter]

30. it has never truly been said openly

but more with a wink and a nod from their elected officials (for example saying that "we will won't be the first to introduce nuclear weapons in to the middle east&quot

[azurnoir]

17. Interesting article from 2005 about Israels atomic history

UK helped Israel get nuclear bomb

Ministers in Harold Macmillan's government were unaware of the deal. It was also kept secret from the US.

In one of the documents Foreign Office official Donald Cape concluded: "On the whole I would prefer not to mention this to the Americans."

Washington had refused to supply heavy water to Israel without a guarantee it would only be used for peaceful means.

US President John F Kennedy's defence secretary from 1961, Robert McNamara, told BBC News he was "astonished" by the cover-up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4743987.stm

[Scurrilous]

21. Thanks.

[pelsar]

22. just for general interest..

the book: the samson option by seymour harsh seems to give a pretty good account of it.

what i found more interesting is the young country, fighting off massive economic, social and military issues with very limited resources had the guts and brains to set up a nuclear facility......making maximum use of its political abilities to do it.

[aranthus]

23. Yeah, right.

Is there anyone who seriously believes that the Arab/Muslim world would not attack Israel if they thought that they could get away with it? Should the Israelis trust that to be true? Is it realistic to think that the states that are trying to obtain a nuclear capability are doing so merely because Israel has such a capability? Does anyone think that if the US gave up its nukes that Russia and China would do the same? Is Eldar really that naive as to think that countries like Iran and Pakistan would give up their nuclear arsenals (assuming Iran eventually builds one) because Israel did so?

[pelsar]

26. and thats just one more in a long line.....

israel's got AIDs inducing gas
steal organs of Palestinians
massacres at will
poisons the water
starves the gazans
creates concentration camps
genoicde
is now in syria "provoking the syrian army

[Shaktimaan]

27. It's amazing.

Some people will truly believe just about anything.

[Ruby the Liberal]

28. Are you denying sex gum and penis-shrinking rays?

You must not read the "news".

[shira]

29. Latest Palestinian news: Israel to create artificial earthquakes under Al Aqsa....

....in order to destroy it so that the 3rd Jewish Temple can be built in its place.

http://www.qudsmedia.com/?p=57045

Now that's a good one, but I still think news of penis shrinking rays beats it.