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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:31 AM

Comparing Nazis to Israelis is unacceptable


Dvir Abramovich
From:The Australian
December 12, 201212:00AM


YESTERDAY in Melbourne's The Age Michael Leunig defended his cartoon "First they came for the Palestinians", previously published in that newspaper, and attacked those who supported Israel and who found his work objectionable.

Leunig's cartoon takes the noble words of anti-Nazi cleric Martin Niemoller decrying the passivity of bystanders in the face of Nazi evil and substitutes the Nazis referred to in the original poem with Israelis: "First they came for the Palestinians and I did not speak out".

Leunig obscenely equates the actions of Israel in Gaza to those of the Nazis and asserts the people who were once the objects of Hitler's extermination and their descendants are now committing genocide against the Palestinians and are thus the present world's Nazis.

I wonder if Leunig paused to consider how a survivor of the Holocaust would react when they came upon his cartoon?

Understandably shocked, they would ask, "How is it possible for anyone to compare the organised, industrial murder of six million Jews in gas chambers, in death camps, in ghettos and in open fields to what is happening in Gaza? Why would any person liken Israel's protection of its citizens from rockets to the genocidal and bestial liquidation of the Jews?"


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/comparing-nazis-to-israelis-is-unacceptable/story-e6frgd0x-1226534879253

147 replies, 14203 views

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Arrow 147 replies Author Time Post
Reply Comparing Nazis to Israelis is unacceptable (Original post)
King_David Dec 2012 OP
Deep13 Dec 2012 #1
King_David Dec 2012 #2
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #3
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #48
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #49
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #56
safeinOhio Dec 2012 #70
King_David Dec 2012 #4
RobertEarl Dec 2012 #5
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #6
kayecy Dec 2012 #7
RobertEarl Dec 2012 #8
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #9
RobertEarl Dec 2012 #10
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #30
Sam1 Dec 2012 #80
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #81
Sam1 Dec 2012 #86
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #95
Sam1 Dec 2012 #109
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #110
King_David Dec 2012 #83
Sam1 Dec 2012 #87
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #11
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #12
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #14
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #18
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #20
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #25
Robeysays Dec 2012 #41
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #42
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #47
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #50
Robeysays Dec 2012 #53
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #84
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #59
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #103
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #82
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #88
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #93
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #98
King_David Dec 2012 #89
Robeysays Dec 2012 #24
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #26
Robeysays Dec 2012 #38
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #40
Robeysays Dec 2012 #44
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #46
Robeysays Dec 2012 #51
King_David Dec 2012 #90
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #121
King_David Dec 2012 #124
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #127
RobertEarl Dec 2012 #13
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #16
King_David Dec 2012 #91
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #33
Robeysays Dec 2012 #15
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #19
Robeysays Dec 2012 #22
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #27
Robeysays Dec 2012 #45
King_David Dec 2012 #92
azurnoir Dec 2012 #94
King_David Dec 2012 #97
azurnoir Dec 2012 #99
King_David Dec 2012 #100
azurnoir Dec 2012 #101
King_David Dec 2012 #102
azurnoir Dec 2012 #104
King_David Dec 2012 #105
King_David Dec 2012 #118
King_David Dec 2012 #119
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #120
King_David Dec 2012 #125
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #126
azurnoir Dec 2012 #130
King_David Dec 2012 #133
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #140
King_David Dec 2012 #142
azurnoir Dec 2012 #131
King_David Dec 2012 #134
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #17
azurnoir Dec 2012 #21
Robeysays Dec 2012 #23
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #28
azurnoir Dec 2012 #29
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #32
azurnoir Dec 2012 #35
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #37
azurnoir Dec 2012 #39
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #43
azurnoir Dec 2012 #52
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #55
azurnoir Dec 2012 #62
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #63
azurnoir Dec 2012 #64
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #66
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #58
azurnoir Dec 2012 #60
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #67
azurnoir Dec 2012 #68
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #61
Justin_Beach Dec 2012 #31
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #34
azurnoir Dec 2012 #36
Grey Dec 2012 #54
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #57
King_David Dec 2012 #76
ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #65
shira Dec 2012 #69
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #71
shira Dec 2012 #72
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #74
oberliner Dec 2012 #73
shaayecanaan Dec 2012 #75
shira Dec 2012 #77
shaayecanaan Dec 2012 #122
shira Dec 2012 #123
azurnoir Dec 2012 #132
King_David Dec 2012 #144
oberliner Dec 2012 #79
intaglio Dec 2012 #78
oberliner Dec 2012 #85
intaglio Dec 2012 #111
oberliner Dec 2012 #114
intaglio Dec 2012 #116
King_David Dec 2012 #96
intaglio Dec 2012 #112
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #106
oberliner Dec 2012 #107
holdencaufield Dec 2012 #108
intaglio Dec 2012 #113
oberliner Dec 2012 #115
intaglio Dec 2012 #117
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #128
shira Dec 2012 #129
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #135
shira Dec 2012 #145
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #147
King_David Dec 2012 #136
shira Dec 2012 #146
King_David Dec 2012 #137
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #139
King_David Dec 2012 #141
KimonoGirl Dec 2012 #138
King_David Dec 2012 #143

Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:32 AM

1. Then the Israeli state should not act like Nazis.

Yeah, there are no death camps, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:37 AM

2. Proving this guy's point,

Do carry on.

Strange how this is apparently acceptable on DU now.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:41 AM

3. I've never seen an Israeli skin a cat.

 

For one thing ... it wouldn't be kosher.

But, please continue telling us just how blood-thirsty are the Israelis.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:55 AM

48. It always comes down to individuals. Individual people and the choices they make,

the causes they support, the stupidities they accept.

On both sides there are people making bad mistakes
and defending them righteously, as if it were so simple --
that people on one side are good and right, and people
on the other are bad, and wrong. No, never.



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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:57 AM

49. Well that's helpful

 

As helpful as referring to Israelis as Nazis

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:06 AM

56. It's helpful, for me, to recognize the individuality & value of human beings.

It starts there. If we don't know who we are, it's easy to
start wars and keep them going forever.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:12 AM

70. Wise words.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:44 AM

4. Sometimes Israel`s opponents , Extreme Right and Extreme Left come together and long for the past,

http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-bands-european-tour-takes-nasty-turn-during-gaza-operation/

'On Sunday, the band arrived for a concert in Antwerp to find more than a hundred protesters shouting “Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews to the gas” outside the venue, according to the Belgian Jewish journalist Michael Freilich, who was present. A group of neo-Nazis protested as well.'

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:57 AM

5. That is awful

But what is even more awful is the way Israel treats the Palestinians in Gaza. It's like they have pushed those poor people - who have had their land stolen - into a camp where they can be easily attacked.

Israel is making a huge mistake. Israel is no longer a friend of this American.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:01 AM

6. "Israel is no longer a friend of this American."

 

Be honest now ... were they ever?

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:04 AM

7. $80billion support to Israel and you can ask a question like that?......n/t

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:06 AM

8. Of course Israel was

Why do you ask?

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:07 AM

9. Just curious to see how honest you would be

 

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:13 AM

10. Do you think Palestinians are criminals?

If not, why are they treated like criminals? Isn't Israeli action against those people a bad case of bigotry?

Now we'll see who is honest and who is a liar, eh?

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:34 AM

30. No, of course not ...

 

... and neither are they being treated like criminals.

They are -- for better or worse -- being treated like a people whose elected leaders continue to make open warfare on Jewish civilians and have been doing so for 40 years.

They are being treated in much the same way that our own president (for whom I voted and I presume you did as well) does the people of Afghanistan.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:50 AM

80. Israel has never been a friend of America.

Israel has always been a client state of the US. Israel's great advantage has been that an articulate well organized minority of American citizens has supported it at all costs. The last time that the U.S. effectively challenged Israel was in the 1950's when Eisenhower forced them and the British to give up the suez canal and withdraw from the Sinai. In fact the Israel's policy of military dominance would be a failure with out unquestioned U.S. resupply of munitions.

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Response to Sam1 (Reply #80)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:14 AM

81. Apparently ... you misunderstood the question

 

If you read the statement that prompted it, I asked if they were ever a friend to HIM.

Of course Israel isn't your friend if you believe that (and I quote) "an articulate well organized minority of American citizens" (Yes, we know who we are) have been secretly running American foreign policy -- and probably the banks and media too -- for over 50 years.

I think you might actually be on the wrong website -- have you tried Stormfront or Rense.com? There are a lot of folks who confuse those with DU.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:31 PM

86. I was thinking more along the lines of the AIPAC and

the Baptists that are tring to breed the "perfect heifer." Nothing secret, nothing conspiratorial, just a very open and public support of Israel. AIPAC is a potent force in our policy toward Israel for a long time as Mearsheimer and Walt found out when they published The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.



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Response to Sam1 (Reply #86)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:35 PM

95. "I was thinking ... of the AIPAC"

 

Yes, I'll just bet you were.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #95)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:17 PM

109. you would lose.

Show me a right wing antisemitic group in the U.S. that is as articulate, well organized and connected as the AIPAC.

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Response to Sam1 (Reply #109)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:46 PM

110. The majority of antisemites ...

 

... articulate or otherwise ... these days aren't in the Right Wing. Times have changed.

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Response to Sam1 (Reply #80)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:28 AM

83. that an articulate well organized minority of American citizens has supported it at all costs"

Hollywood , Banks and The Whitehouse too ?


What a disgusting post .

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Response to King_David (Reply #83)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:36 PM

87. The Simple Reply is NO! The longer reply is that the AIPAC is to Israel what the NRA is to guns.

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:37 AM

11. there's a powerful documentary film

"Wall"
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm688037120/tt0413018

I understand why people see similarities.
Nothing is black and white.

guard tower:


Israel and the Occupied Territories: The fence/wall violates human rights
Amnesty International 2/19/2004
Amnesty International believes that the construction by Israel of the fence/wall inside the Occupied Territories violates international law and is contributing to grave human rights violations.

According to the Israeli authorities the fence/wall is "a defensive measure, designed to block the passage of terrorists, weapons and explosives into the State of Israel...."

However, most of the fence/wall is not being constructed on the Green Line between Israel and the West Bank. Close to 90% of the route of the fence/wall is on Palestinian land inside the West Bank, encircling Palestinian towns and villages and cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and Palestinians from their places of work and education and health care facilities and other essential services.

....The fence/wall encompasses more than 50 Israeli civilian settlements in the Occupied Territories, in which the majority of Israeli settlers live and which are illegal under international law. The security exceptions in international humanitarian law cannot be invoked to justify measures that benefit unlawful civilian Israeli settlements at the expense of the occupied Palestinian population.
http://www.vtjp.org/background/Separation_Wall_Report.htm

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:41 AM

12. That's all it takes? A wall?

Have you seen the one on the US border?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:51 AM

14. you might watch the film.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
that wants it down.


Robert Frost, Mending Wall

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:57 AM

18. It doesn't change the fact the analogy is weak and pathetic.

I suggest you watch some movies about the Holocaust and the Third Reich.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:09 AM

20. I've watched tons of movies about the nazis & the holocaust.

Have you watched any about the wall?

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:26 AM

25. I have. And your admission makes it even more sad you use such analogies.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:49 AM

41. hahahaaha, what? because we watch movies that don't praise what's going on isreal?

 

This makes you sad bro?

Cry a river and it wont make a difference.

Fascism on the march. And like Churchill said, America tries every choice wrong once, but eventually we make the right choice. One day america will stop supporting fascism in the middle east. And when that day comes, the whole joint is gonna wish they made a deal.

Me, I'm an American, and could care less. I say fuck it, im all for pulling everything from every where and going back to being isolationist.

I don't want to die for a crazy rat fuck fascist theocratic apartheid.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:49 AM

42. please don't make assumptions about me, it's not relevant.

It wasn't my analogy.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:54 AM

47. It was your analogy; you made the post!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #47)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:59 AM

50. You are trying to make me wrong in this discussion, for no good reason.

I simply said I understand why the analogy is made.

Can you consider the possibility that there may be human
beings, not only on one side, who are suffering profoundly?

Does that matter?
Or is only the defense of Israel important?
If so, why?

Earnest question.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:01 AM

53. I threw a shoe over this fence and the dog whelped.

 

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Response to Robeysays (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:31 AM

84. Who are the dogs in this scenario?

 

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:17 AM

59. No, I am not trying to paint you as "wrong."

Your post seem to indicate you also were a "fan" of the analogy. If that isn't the case, then I apologize. But, unlike you, I can't understand how the analogy is made when it isn't even comparable...not by a long shot.

Can you consider the possibility that there may be human
beings, not only on one side, who are suffering profoundly?


Can you? I know I can.

Does that matter?
Or is only the defense of Israel important?
If so, why?


Does it matter to you? I find that having two states for two people important. Do you only find the creation of Palestine, even at the expense of Israel or Israelis, important? If so, why?

Do you understand the situation is not comparable to Nazi Germany, which is the topic? Do you even understand why it is offensive?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #59)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:32 PM

103. My point of view is that human beings need peace. Each one, including you and me.

I have no first-person expertise on the subject of
Israel and Palestine I can only speculate about what
might work, what would not work.

I'm not a fan of assigning blame to either side. I think both
sides' stances are leading nowhere.

I'm sad to see so many innocents in the way of all the
insanity, both here, as this morning, and there.

If there could be one inclusive democratic nation that
would be fine with me. If they want to make it two
countries, or ten countries, I don't care. What I care
about most is that people start looking at themselves,
recognizing where the real solutions are, and where
peace can be found.

If we make no effort to understand the other person, &
other points of view, wars and misunderstandings will
continue to flourish.

Something I recognize is that most people have a
unique set of circumstances, programming from early
life, cultural biases, etc. and it is very hard for most of
us to see beyond those things. If we learn from childhood
that Arabs are evil, or that Jews are evil, it's hard
to shake those early life beliefs and fears, they are
close to our bones. But they're not us. These beliefs
and fears are not who we really are.

The scene from Borat is a ridiculous but excellent
analogy, if you saw that film -- when he is taken
in lovingly and with great kindness by the old Jewish
couple. But because of what he was taught as a child,
all he can see is dangerous monsters.

Probably this phenomenon, more than anything,
accounts for these conflicts. Instead of recognizing
what we all have in common, we focus on the
differences, our fears, and our inherited prejudices
-- and create conflicts that don't have to exist.

I recognize that the OP is about an extreme analogy.
It's obvious to me that it's not the same situation.

But all things considered I understand why people
make the analogy. I understand why people defend
both sides with equal passion, and why people may
feel offended.

Yet I benefit more from examining & understanding
why things offend me -- why something is personally
offensive to me, even if it's happening on the other
side of the world, not affecting my life directly --
than from proving someone else is offensive.

Thanks for your openness to the possibility that
you were misunderstanding my post. The only card
I have in the game is this one:
It is not the world that needs peace, it is people.
That's where it begins and ends.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:25 AM

82. Hmmmm....

 

... you are comparing a security fence -- which has stopped untold numbers suicide bombers from reaching Israel from the West Bank -- to the plan, that very nearly succeeded to murder every Jew in Europe.

And you're concerned someone is trying to make you look wrong?

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #82)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:11 PM

88. I'm not making the comparison.

and have no more appetite for this conversation this morning..

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #88)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:32 PM

93. You wrote ...

 

"I've watched tons of movies about the nazis & the holocaust ... Have you watched any about the wall? "

You made a moral comparison between the concerted deaths of millions of Jews and a construction project. If I were you I wouldn't have the appetite to discuss it either.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #93)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:57 PM

98. please stop.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:09 PM

89. I am pretty sure that Hamas does indeed want the wall down..

They would love to resume their suicide terrorist attacks against the Jewish State. That wall is a major inconvenience to them . Tear it down... Pronto !!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:23 AM

24. And you will find that most everyone on this board hates that wall just as much.

 

We don't like walls.

We know walls aren't to keep out.
Walls are for keeping people in.
--It's an old proverb.

Case in point:

Palestine now that you bring it up.

Or we could talk about Warsaw.

You know what ever.

Walls a wall, and as a progressive liberal American, I fucking hate them.

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Response to Robeysays (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:27 AM

26. Again, showing that the analogy is weak and pathetic.

Want to talk about Warsaw? Learn something about it first, then we can talk.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #26)


Response to Robeysays (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:49 AM

40. You're educated and providing links to anti-Semitic hate sites? Interesting.

It explains your litany of personal attacks. It also explains why why you think comparing Nazi Germany and Israel makes sense.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:51 AM

44. ROFL

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fourteen+pillars+of+fascism&l=1

YOU'RE A CHUMP BRO.

get over it.

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Response to Robeysays (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:53 AM

46. And you are what you are. But, then you knew that.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:00 AM

51. haha, man I'm over this.

 

Fun while it lasted.

Long live freedom. Down with tyranny whether pronounced in German or Hebrew.


Sic semper tyrannis

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Response to Robeysays (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:15 PM

90. Some progressive ,

Linking to ultra right wing websites ...

You sure you know which forum you are posting on ?

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Response to King_David (Reply #90)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:43 PM

121. Plenty of 'supporters' of Israel link to ultra right wing websites...

I guess they were just following that lead...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #121)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:26 PM

124. Not really ,

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Response to King_David (Reply #124)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:42 PM

127. Yes, really. Or are you trying to claim 'supporters' of Israel don't link to extreme RW sites?

I don't recall saying that 'dude' wasn't an antisemite. Sorry if yr confused and thought I did. I'm pointing out that Islamophobes and anti-Arab bigots generally get a pass at DU if they claim to support Israel...

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:45 AM

13. Thanks for that, Voice

It's a modern day concentration camp, isn't it?

Israel is making a big mistake.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:54 AM

16. I think it's all incredibly sad and stupid.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:21 PM

91. Another post proving the OP correct,

Unbelievable that its so rampant here on DU...

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:37 AM

33. Why would it?

 

"most of the fence/wall is not being constructed on the Green Line between Israel and the West Bank."

Why would it be built along a line that isn't now or was ever intended to be the border of a Palestinian State?

The Green Line is the agreed armistice line between Jordan and Israel from 1948. It has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:52 AM

15. Facists are facists.

 

How long they gonna be stuffing the Palestinians in to walled ghettos?

What's the Israeli state's final solution?

Obviously, they can't keep taking land from them and pushing them closer and closer together, permanence of matter and all.

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Response to Robeysays (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:58 AM

19. And yet, another example of the OP article.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:16 AM

22. yet another example of cognative dissonance.

 

Enjoy your hypocrisy!





And for all the progressives lurking:


Freedom of speech and expression <<< Calling any one I want a Nazi if i feel like it. Welcome to America. like it or GTFO.
Freedom of worship <<< Lets stop screening and metal detecting everyone going to the dome of the rock.
Freedom from want <<< Millions living in abject and chronic poverty per embargo policy and de juer law.
Freedom from fear <<< And no one likes getting rained on with phosphorus bombs.

Long live Freedom. Long live Democracy.

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Response to Robeysays (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:28 AM

27. You are correct, but it yours, both the cognative dissonance and hypocrisy.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:52 AM

45. yeah okay.

 

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Response to Robeysays (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:31 PM

92. "Freedom of speech and expression <<< Calling any one I want a Nazi if i feel like it."

Yes you are free to utter any antisemitic speech in America but not necessarily on DU... They are free to shut up any bigoted speech they want on their message board.
If they decide that your an antisemite for calling Jews Nazis, they are free to hide your post and or kick you off DU, if they should so desire.

A forum such as Stormfromt , would never tombstone a person for posting Jews,Israrlis,Zionists are like Nazis.

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Response to King_David (Reply #92)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:34 PM

94. you do realize that the poster can not reply don't you?

or did you not realize he already had one comment on this thread hidden I'm sure you did not

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #94)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:47 PM

97. Makes no difference to me

His offensive posts must be challenged .

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Response to King_David (Reply #97)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:03 PM

99. the post was challanged by the poster that it was made in reply to

but still thank you for your reply and may I add that I expected no different

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #99)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:07 PM

100. No problem. nt

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Response to King_David (Reply #100)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:09 PM

101. apparently not for however IMO

kicking a dead horse is a bit of over kill, myself I would not knowingly do it

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #101)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:17 PM

102. It's not "just" a debate for some of us. nt

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Response to King_David (Reply #102)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:37 PM

104. ah I see that justifies your responses okay

I just guess our ethics are different here

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #104)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:45 PM

105. Not sure what you getting at and this part of

The discussion just ain't my thing and about to eat Friday night , shabbat supper with the family , so ill leave you guys to continue.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #101)


Response to azurnoir (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:49 PM

119. Guess it was not overkill.

Guess it was not overkill.

Skinner's reason = Anti-Semite.





http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=167767&sub=trans

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Response to King_David (Reply #119)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:42 PM

120. What a shame the Islamophobes aren't treated the same way...

There's a massive double standard being displayed when it comes to different sorts of bigotry at DU...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #120)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:29 PM

125. I disagree ,completely. nt

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Response to King_David (Reply #125)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:40 PM

126. You can disagree. It's a fact that admin don't treat Islamophobia like they do antisemitism...

Islamophobes are able to run riot at DU. I've only known of two Islamophobes who've been nuked by Skinner for Islamophobia. It took months of bigoted posts and links to anti-Muslim extremist crap like Atlas Shrugs for one to get shown the door, and the other was up in GD after an extremely anti-Muslim post was left standing by a jury.

So, wheres the links to others?

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Response to King_David (Reply #125)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:12 PM

130. so you do not have a problem with Islamiphobia? your comment could be read like that

is that it?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #130)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:45 PM

133. Of course I have an equal problem with Islamaphobia as I do with antisemitism,

They must both be wiped out.

I say that categorically !

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Response to King_David (Reply #133)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:27 AM

140. That's a relief to know. I hope you'll start speaking out against Islamophobic posts in future...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #140)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:41 AM

142. Find me the post,

I will alert on it and eMail skinner myself to remove such a person.

Islamaphobia , Antisemitism ,Homophobia and all types of Bigotry should not be tolerated on DU or anywhere else for that matter.

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Response to King_David (Reply #119)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:15 PM

131. That changes nothing I still think it is a nasty tactic to reply to someone when you know they

can't answer as to it being more than a debate from perspective of DU that is all it is, unless your are saying you have some other purpose here?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #131)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:48 PM

134. Some comments can not go unchallenged nt

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:56 AM

17. Yes, it is. Yet...

You will be hard pressed to find so-called progressives and liberals commenting in the affirmative, too many actually approve of this type of rhetoric and use it (see post #1 in this very thread!). I also don't like when Jews and/or Israelis use this type of rhetoric when discussing the Israeli-Arab conflicts. I find it counter-productive, but it is the only time other liberals and progressives will come to my side in agreement. I view this situation the same way I do when it comes to the "war of words" in regards to sexist, racist, and homophobic remarks. There is a difference between calling a black person a "nigger" and a white person a "cracker." Both are racist terms, but the former carries much more gravitas than the latter. Why? One word: HISTORY.

So how do the two situations relate? Using Holocaust imagery by those who were affected is much different, then using said imagery against those affected or Israel, itself. So, while I was not impressed by Lieberman's (of Israel) comments about the EU, I find what Leunig (and those like him) massively more offensive. The situation in Israel doesn't even remotely approach Nazi Germany's actions, anymore then Ahmadinejad is the equal of Hitler. But, the latter is less offensive then the former for the same reason in the above racist word analogy: history!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:13 AM

21. so in your opinion comparing Israeli's to Nazi's is worse than calling a Black person a n*gger ?

fascinating

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:18 AM

23. I know right.

 

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:29 AM

28. Show me where I said that?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:33 AM

29. your comment certainly inferred it IMO

but if you say not then okay

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:36 AM

32. It isn't a matter if I say no, it is that you falsely accused me of something.

Then, as usual, fail to prove it. But, that is how you read it, so I guess it makes it OK in your mind.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:40 AM

35. I gave my opinion which you apparently would rather continue to go on with this

what I said it was my opinion and if that not what you meant that's okay too

you can accept graciously or not the choice is yours

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:42 AM

37. Yes, and I know why, I was able to infer that as well.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:44 AM

39. so or not it is that was also expected thanks n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:50 AM

43. As was your false conclusions and ignoring the topic.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:01 AM

52. ignoring the topic?

nope that is what is going on here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113425659

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113425696

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113425544

odd though you don't seem at all concerned hmmmmm

however I already gave my opin ion on this thread but I will repeat it just for you

comparing Israel's actions vis a vis Palestinians to Nazi's is inaccurate and wrong however a comparison to South Africa during the apartheid years is indeed far more accurate IMO and that is in agreement with and drawn from that of Desmond Tutu

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #52)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:05 AM

55. And yet, I wasn't in ANY of those threads.

Yes, I am aware of your opinion and the reasons for your implications.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #55)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:33 AM

62. yes I am quite aware of that

but we are all quite selective of who's subject matter we choose and I do fully understand your avoiding those threads

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:34 AM

63. Much like your avoiding the topic of this one in this conversation...what is it you said...Oh yes:

"Quick! Look over there!"

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:39 AM

64. and the topic is? comparing Israel's to Nazi's

the side bar was my 'apparently' miss understanding your comment which I admitted to and yet you keep pressing why?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #64)


Response to azurnoir (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:14 AM

58. That's... a weird stretch, Azurnoir

BtA was making the point of some racist slurs being worse than others because of the power differential; "nigger" and "cracker" are not equal terms because one is used by the oppressor and the other by the oppressed.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:18 AM

60. we've already discussed it but it nice to see BtA has a such a good friend here thanks

eta what you seem to to miss though is that this is again the oppressor vs the oppressed which is why the comparison is made albeit inaccurate

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #60)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:57 AM

67. No, I got that

I didn't miss anything on that scale, Azurnoir. But we're not talking about Palestinians using the term.

Frankly, I don't give a damn if a Palestinian wants to launch all the Nazi allusions they can think of at Israel, exactly because of that differential. They might not be historically accurate, but the sentiment is completely understandable. It's the Palestinians getting ground down under occupation, it's their lives in the crosshairs, its their homes being bulldozed, it's their female relatives getting groped at checkpoints. If the people being oppressed want to compare their oppressors to Nazis, frankly I do think that's fair game

When we do it? When Americans, or Europeans, or whoever it is not suffering that oppression do it? That's a different kettle of fish. We can sympathize. We can be angry. We can speak out and seek cor the oppression to end... But we're not the ones under that oppression. We don't have the "privilege" (for a lack of a better term) of lobbing accusations of Naziism at Jews. For us, it's just an extra-nasty insult, something we know will make a really bloody cut, a turn of phrase that demonstrates "our" power over "them," basically.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #67)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:59 AM

68. yes I agree and said pretty much the same thing just more briefly

anything else?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:20 AM

61. Thank you!

Some are worse, yet they are still slurs, and it is all because of the historic context and oppression that goes along with those slurs. BTW, I appreciate the comments you made against this type of shit in another thread recently, and if I could find that thread, I would post your comments. Every now and again, the Devil laces up those ice skating shoes.

On Edit: Oh dear, now we're friends! YIKES! I guess you can get the next round of drinks.

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:34 AM

31. It is a bad comparison, a fair one would be ...

To compare Israels actions to those of the United States (and Canada to a lesser extent) in the 19th century.

The U.S. responded to the native population by pushing them onto reservations, slowly encroaching on their land (including land that had been part of those reservations) and responding with overwhelming force (claiming self defense/ defense of the settlers) if the natives fought back or resisted in any way.

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Response to Justin_Beach (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:37 AM

34. That may be closer, but it still missing components.

But, yes, it isn't the same as the Nazi comparisions.

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Response to Justin_Beach (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:41 AM

36. IMO South Africa would bge closer

and Desmond Tutu seems to agree or far more accurately I agree with him

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:05 AM

54. Comparing Nazis to Israelis is unacceptable or

Maybe not......?

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:09 AM

57. Well, that's an awkward title...

Does Australian English work differently than American English that way? Because to me, it should go the other way, "Comparing Israelis to Nazis is unacceptable." As-written it looks like the author is upset at Nazis being defamed, which is very disconcerting.

No, Israel is not the Third Reich, by a long shot.

It's more like... the United States. That's not a compliment, if anyone's wondering.

But it's not the Third Reich.

Granted, there was that whole affair of Israeli MK's stirring up a race riot against Africans in Tel Aviv where Israelis smashed up shops and comitted assaults against the "infiltrators" and "cancers" (as said MK's termed the Africans) all in the interest of "preserving Israel's Jewish Character" (i.e., ethnic purity - it certainly wasn't a demonstration of moral character on the part of the rioters) that does look a whole fucking lot like krystalnacht... But still not full-on third reich.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:28 AM

76. I agree ,should of been "Comparing Israelis to Nazis is unacceptable."nt

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:44 AM

65. Seriously comparing any group to the Nazis is unacceptable.

There are some exceptions, such as saying group X's uniforms look like Nazi uniforms, etc.

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:06 AM

69. Holocaust inversion. Sick...

Maybe the Nazis left a few Jews remaining to show the world just how Nazi-like the Jews were.



Great way for Europeans and others around the world to absolve themselves of the crimes of their parents and grandparents.

This cartoonist, Leunig, would probably feel right at home amongst demonstrators shouting 'We are Hamas' and of course, 'Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas'. Note that no other ethnic or religious group on the planet is ever compared to Nazis. Just Jews. This is a vulgar and deliberately painful slur used against Jews, which also serves to incite violence against them for being "just like" their former persecutors.

More from the article:

I wonder, did Leunig's "duty and conscience" compel him to sound the alarm all those years while thousands of rockets systematically fell on Israelis, attacks that Israeli author and peace activist Amos Oz called "a war crime and a crime against humanity"? Did Leunig ever express the "unspoken grief" of Israeli families who lost loved ones to terrorism?

Did he liken the actions of state genocides, brutal executions and large-scale massacres of civilians in Rwanda, Darfur, Congo, Nigeria, Syria, Myanmar, Somalia and Ethiopia to those of the Nazis? Did he call Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad "excessively homicidal" for wanting to wipe Israel off the map? Or is this epitaph reserved only for Israel?

Why does Leunig absolve Palestinians of all responsibility for their situation and ignore their behaviour against Israel?

Criticism of Israeli policies is entirely acceptable and Leunig is entitled to his views. But such cartoons not only poison public debate, they close it. After all, how do you discuss the conflict with someone who compares Israelis to Nazis?

In his opinion piece this week, Leunig labels his critics in the Jewish community as "aggressive Israel supporters", "cynical", "bullying", "lazy", "false accusers" and "boys who cry wolf" who are engrossed in "obsessive and vapid denunciation". He accuses anyone who dares to see anti-Semitic tones in his cartoon as frauds who "are not really upset by any 'anti-Semitism' in my cartoons (there is none) but by the possible impact of a cartoon on the doubters".




Holocaust Inversion

The false accusation of Holocaust inversion-the portraying of Israel, Israelis, and Jews as Nazis-is a major distortion of history. This anti-Semitic concept claims that Israel behaves against the Palestinians as Germany did to the Jews in World War II. “The victims have become perpetrators,” is one major slogan of the inverters. By shifting the moral responsibility for genocide, Holocaust inversion also contains elements of Holocaust denial.

The motivations of the Holocaust inverters are manifold. Some aim at the destruction of Israel and seek to lay the infrastructure for its moral delegitimization through demonization... For Europeans it is also an effective way to cover up for Holocaust crimes of their countries and expunge guilt by claiming that what was done by the Nazi perpetrators and their many collaborators is a common phenomenon and by now is practiced by Israelis and Jews.

As anti-Semitism historian Robert Wistrich put it:

“anti-Zionists” who insist on comparing Zionism and the Jews with Hitler and the Third Reich appear unmistakably to be de facto anti-Semites, even if they vehemently deny the fact! This is largely because they knowingly exploit the reality that Nazism in the postwar world has become the defining metaphor of absolute evil. For if Zionists are “Nazis” and if Sharon really is Hitler, then it becomes a moral obligation to wage war against Israel. That is the bottom line of much contemporary anti-Zionism. In practice, this has become the most potent form of contemporary anti-Semitism.

more...
http://jcpa.org/article/holocaust-inversion-the-portraying-of-israel-and-jews-as-nazis/



The Livingstone Formulation


This paper is concerned with a rhetorical formulation which is sometimes deployed in response to an accusation of antisemitism, particularly when it relates to discourse which is of the form of criticism of Israel. This formulation is a defensive response which deploys a counter-accusation that the person raising the issue of antisemitism is doing so in bad faith and dishonestly. I have called it The Livingstone Formulation. It is defined by the presence of two elements. Firstly the conflation of legitimate criticism of Israel with what are alleged to be demonizing, exclusionary or antisemitic discourses or actions; secondly, the presence of the counteraccusation that the raisers of the issue of antisemitism do so with dishonest intent, in order to de-legitimize criticism of Israel. The allegation is that the accuser chooses to ‘play the antisemitism card’ rather than to relate seriously to, or to refute, the criticisms of Israel. While the issue of antisemitism is certainly sometimes raised in an unjustified way, and may even be raised in bad faith, the Livingstone Formulation may appear as a response to any discussion of contemporary antisemitism.

This paper is not concerned directly with those who are accused of employing antisemitic discourse and who respond in a measured and rational way to such accusations in a good faith effort to relate to the concern, and to refute it. Rather it is concerned with modes of refusal to engage with the issue of antisemitism. Those who argue that certain kinds of arguments, tropes, analogies and ideas are antisemitic are trying to have them recognized as being outside of the boundaries of legitimate antiracist discourse. The Livingstone Formulation as a response tries to have the raising itself of the issue of antisemitism recognized as being outside of the boundaries of legitimate discourse. In this paper I describe and analyse a number of examples of the formulation which come from a number of profoundly different sources, including antiracist, openly antisemitic, antizionist, and mainstream ones.

http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/david-hirsh-the-livingstone-formulation/


It's a great time to be an anti-semite. Attack the bloodthirsty, Nazi Jews. Claim you're just an anti-zionist. And when the Jews complain, put them in their place by telling them they do so dishonestly and in bad faith in order to stifle all criticism of Israel.

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Response to shira (Reply #69)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:16 AM

71. Quite a handful of interesting accusations...

Maybe the Nazis left a few Jews remaining to show the world just how Nazi-like the Jews were.


I'm amazed at the weird ideas that come out of folks like yourself, Shira. I know you're being sarcastic, but really, where in the world did that come from?

This cartoonist, Leunig, would probably feel right at home amongst demonstrators shouting 'We are Hamas' and of course, 'Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas'.


You think so? Got some supporting material there, Shira?

Note that no other ethnic or religious group on the planet is ever compared to Nazis.


Nobody else, ever, in the entire world? My!

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:34 AM

72. Answers...

Sheikh Hussein bin Mahmud fake-quoting Hitler:

‘I could kill all the Jews in the world, but I left a few alive so that the entire world will know why I killed the Jews.’”

Typical StormFront, neo-Nazi banter as well.

========

Michael Leunig also writes about the nefarious Jewish Lobby. Holocaust Inversion, Elders of Zion Protocols.... This guy is bad news. One of his Israel/Nazi cartoons somehow made its way to the Iranian conference years ago on Holocaust denial. The one that David Duke and other neo-nazis attended. Leunig knows quite well how his bile is used against Jews.

========

I should've written no other religious or ethnic group on the planet is compared to Nazis as frequently and consistently than the Jews.


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Response to shira (Reply #72)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:17 AM

74. Okay then.

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:07 AM

73. Apparently not

Sad.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #73)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 AM

75. The Israelis compare the Palestinians to Nazis

Just this week, Avigdor Lieberman compared the European support for Palestine's UNGA resolution to the appeasement of the Nazis prior to World War II. Presumably, then, the Palestinians are the Nazis in that analogy, and Mahmoud Abbas is Hitler.

That is nothing uncommon. Israelis have been comparing all of their opponents in the middle East to Nazis essentially since the birth of the state. Nasser was Hitler, Arafat was Hitler, Saddam Hussein was Hitler and now Ahmadinejad is Hitler.

This despite the fact that the number of Muslims killed by virtually any Israeli PM vastly exceeds the number of Jews killed by any of the above Arab leaders, and not merely because of lack of opportunity. Ahmadinejad is nearly out of office and hasn't even started killing any of the 25 000 Jews that reside in Iran. If he is Hitler, he's something of an underachiever.

Frankly, it would be a good thing if people forswore gratuitous Nazi comparisons, I find them dull and arid myself.

But I think both Israeli and many diaspora Jewish commentators need to apply that rule to themselves before they can start to demand compliance of others.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:38 AM

77. See #17 above. n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:26 PM

122. Quite breathtaking hypocrisy, isn't it?

That particular poster is the proprietor of a website that, until recently, had compared just about every person who frequents this forum to the Nazis. To wit, I recall that one regular poster here was described as a "sick bigoted piece of Nazi filth".

I would have linked to that comment, but the relevant forums on said website seem to have been deleted. I wonder why.

I am stunned he could make that complaint with a straight face, to be honest. Your own hypocrisy has been duly noted by me on many an occasion, but that particular poster seems to take the cake in that regard. If anyone finds his arguments the least bit convincing, then frankly I despair for the human race.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #122)


Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #122)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:24 PM

132. actually that part the of site is not gone it simply is not availible for viewing by non-members

seems some do not have the courage of their convictions or want their true feelings shown for some reason, but it would also indicate that part of site is active again

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #122)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:50 AM

144. 'I despair for the human race'

You have the flair for the dramatic.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:00 AM

79. They do it too!! They do it too!!

Always a go-to response.

One would think there would be universal agreement on a site like this that comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is unacceptable. In fact, that actually used to be one of the rules here.

Times have changed apparently.

P.S. If someone wants to post a thread on an editorial about how comparing Palestinians to Nazi Germany should be unacceptable, I would certainly agree with that sentiment too.

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:40 AM

78. You don't actually know the Niemoller quote, do you?

although it had specific application to the German State at that time it is about all repressive states - be they left-wing, right-wing or Zionist

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.


Nowhere does it mention Jews or Nazis

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Response to intaglio (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:06 PM

85. You are wrong

Clearly you do not know the quote yourself.

Martin Niemöller: "First they came for the Socialists..."

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

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Response to oberliner (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:16 AM

111. That's a lie

The quote I took came from the Martin-Niemoller Foundation.

„Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr,
der protestieren konnte.“


Martin-Niemoller Foundation

Funny how the words were changed by a museum with an agenda ...

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Response to intaglio (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:20 AM

114. No it's not

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:27 PM - Edit history (1)

No words were changed by a museum "with an agenda" (whatever that means).

Maybe the words were changed by a foundation with an agenda.

Here's a link to a historian who has researched this extensively:

I am often asked "What is the correct sequence and groups in the quotation?"
Here is my March 2006 answer to one of those queries:

There are in fact several "correct" versions. Niemöller named different groups when he first coined the saying, probably in 1946, than when it was revived in the 1970s and he was again asked about it.
In several 1946 speeches he mentioned the following groups (in this order, see below):
Communists
Incurably sick
Jews or Jehovah's Witnesses (depending on which speech)
People in countries occupied by Nazi Germany.
In 1976 Niemöller was asked about the quotation in an interview. The Martin Niemoeller Foundation in Germany takes his 1976 answer to be definitive . In his lengthy answer Niemoeller mentioned the following groups, and claimed that he started using the quotation only recently (namely at a 1974 event, which is demonstrably untrue, since it appeared in print as early as 1955, based on a 1951 interview with someone who quoted it) :
Communists
Trade Unions
Social Democrats
Jews who had become Protestant ministers (Niemoeller speaks of "Judenstämmlinge"--Jews by lineage).
My translation of the quotation on the Niemoeller Foundation page:
'There were no minutes or copy of what I said, and it may be that I formulated it differently. But the idea was anyhow: The communists, we still let that happen calmly; and the trade unions, we also let that happen; and we even let the Social Democrats happen. All of that was not our affair. The Church did not concern itself with politics at all at that time, and it shouldn't have anything do with them either. In the Confessing Church we didn't want to represent any political resistance per se, but we wanted to determine for the Church that that was not right, and that it should not become right in the Church, that's why already in '33, when we created the minister emergency federation (Pfarrernotbund), we put as the 4th point in the founding charter: If an offensive is made against ministers and they are simply ousted as ministers, because they are of Jewish lineage (Judenstämmlinge) or something like that, then we can only say as a Church: No. And that was then the 4th point in the obligation, and that was probably the first anti-antisemitic pronouncement coming from the Protestant Church.'
published in: Martin Niemöller, Carl Ordnung, and Walter Feurich, Was würde Jesus dazu sagen?: Reden, Predigten, Aufsätze 1937 bis 1980 (Union Verlag, 1980).
I don't think that that 1976 statement reflects what Niemöller had said in the 1940s--he was 84 years old, and he might have forgotten that he had used it in speeches more than 30 years earlier. The first documented reference to the precise quotation that I know of is in a book first published in 1955, which is based on interviews conducted some time between 1950 and 1954. In that version it is likely that the interviewee added his own groups, namely "schools" and "the press." In any case, researcher/author Milton Mayer quotes a German professor he interviewed who refered to Niemöller having said:

Communists
Socialists
schools
the press
Jews
the Church (see Mayer, below for full citation)
Note 3/15/11: I just received a flurry of emails from scholars and ultimately from the USHMM about the quotation. Apparently there is a controversy about whether MN included Catholics. It is quite clear from the 1976 interview (see my translation above) that MN meant ONLY the Protestant (Evangelical/Lutheran) Church. In fact, some Catholic clergymen spoke against the murder of the "incurably ill." And just by the way, according to figures compiled by Johannes Neuhäusler, one of Niemöllers prison-mates in Dachau, there were 447 German Catholic priests in Dachau (of 2720 total, including 1780 Polish Catholic priests). While this is a far cry from the "thousands" of Catholics some bloggers name, it is also vastly more than the handful of German Protestant clergymen (most from the Confessing Church) who were imprisoned for their principled stance.
Note 5/3/2010: I have found a few sources from the late 1950s and early 1960s that use the quotation. Three contemporary reviews of Mayer's book (Sept. 1955 AAAPS; Oct. 1955 ASR; Jan. 1956 AJS] did not mention the quote. HOWEVER, it was picked up in a pamphlet printed in defense of African-American activist Claude M. Lightfoot (1910–1986) in 1955: The Case of Claude Lightfoot, issued by the Lightfoot Defense committee, Chicago, Illinois, 1955 (google books--no content). Presumably from Mayer the quotation made its way into several educational publications in the 1960s. One of those publications is the 1958 edition of the Goodrich/Hackett stage version of The Diary of Anne Frank. It was added on p. 150 as one of the appendices with activities for students:
Frances Goodrich, Albert Hackett, and Anne Frank, The Play of the Diary of Anne Frank (Heinemann, 1958)(previous edition: New York: Random House, 1956), p. 150. (google books version--search for "communists" for example)
In this book the order is: Jews, communists, trade unionists, me; it also uses the phrase "I did not speak out" (as opposed to 'was uneasy' or 'kept silent').
An often cited published version of the quotation is the 1968 Congressional Record (see below). Howard Samuels, an official from a business organization, was testifying before Congress. He explicitly referred to Niemöller as the originator. I am quite sure that Samuels excluded and included certain groups to suit his own business agenda. In my opinion, Niemöller would not have named Catholics or industrialists at all. In 1968 Samuels named the following groups:
Jews
Catholics
Industrialists/Trade Unions
Protestant Church.
Thus the quotation was clearly well known long before 1974, the year in which Niemöller, in a 1976 interview, at that time thought he first said it. Whether you want to take the 1946 not-quite-polished versions, the 1955 published version of a ca. 1951 interview (to which the secondhand narrator probably added his own groups), or the 1976 erroneous memory by Niemöller himself as the "correct" version, is up to you.


http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm

Seems that perhaps the one with the agenda may be you?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #114)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:01 AM

116. So get this "Historian" to correct the Neimoller foundation

Who have done far more research than your, probably biased, source.

It is only in the USA (and probably Israel) that the reference to "... the Jews ..." is added

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Response to intaglio (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:48 PM

96. Actually it's you who's clueless here..

It most certainly does mention Jews .
And it seems you know about this poem about as much as you do not know about Zionism.


"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me."

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

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Response to King_David (Reply #96)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:18 AM

112. The Martin-Niemoller foundation says you are deceived

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:48 AM - Edit history (1)

„Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich geschwiegen,
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr,
der protestieren konnte.“


No mention of "Das Juden" there

http://www.martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/4/daszitat/a31

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Response to intaglio (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:03 PM

106. Is the world you live in nice?

 

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #106)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:28 PM

107. Many posts on this thread are more than a little disturbing

What do you think?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #107)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:22 PM

108. I think that since the moderators ...

 

... have outsourced policing the loons in this group to willfully ignorant juries -- we are seeing, more and more, what people really think about "you know who".

To be honest, I appreciate the honesty and I've always felt sorry for anti-semites who were forced by decent standards to couch their feelings in politically correct terms.

Welcome to the new -- and more blood-thirsty -- DU.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #106)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:19 AM

113. Better than yours, probably, But not nice

Especially as I check my sources

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Response to intaglio (Reply #113)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:23 AM

115. Not very carefully, apparently

Or maybe you will reconsider with the additional information that has been provided to you above.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #115)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:02 AM

117. So tell me why the Martin Neimoller Foundation

insists that your version is incorrect?

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Response to King_David (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:46 PM

128. I can't see anything but the article summary. Where's the cartoon itself?

Or don't we need to see it to pass judgement?

It is kinda very telling that those expressing the most outrage over a cartoon drawn by an Australian cartoonist behave as though it's far, far more horrendous and outrageworthy than the killing of Palestinians. I'm pretty sure Luenig and his cartoons aren't going to kill anyone, not even readers of The Age, who of course tend not to be readers of Murdoch's RW flagship, The Australian

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #128)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:14 PM

129. Just google Leunig, Israel, and Cartoon...



Here's an earlier one from him...



It's the really, old school style of jew-hate...



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Response to shira (Reply #129)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:48 PM

135. As I thought, more storm in a teacup stuff...

I'm just not getting how Leuning is so horrendous and outrageous, yet the killing of Palestinian civilians brings out nothing but attempts at justification from many on Team Israel...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #135)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:41 AM

145. Right. You don't get it. n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #145)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:50 AM

147. I get it just fine n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #129)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:00 AM

136. He is far worse than I thought,

That middle one was particularly disgusting.

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Response to King_David (Reply #136)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:43 AM

146. Typical Stormfront sanctimonious bigotry. n/t

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #128)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:02 AM

137. 'Luenig and his cartoons aren't going to kill anyone,'

I agree,

But very recent history has shown that newspaper cartoons can indeed prove to be deadly.

Some have provoked extreme violence.

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Response to King_David (Reply #137)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:26 AM

139. Then why get all outraged about an obscure cartoon rather than actual deaths?

It really does come across like some people find a political cartoon far more offensive than the deaths of Palestinian civilians. The high octane outrage about the cartoon is coming from people who never express any outrage about the killing of Palestinian civilians, unless the death can be blamed on other Palestinians, or theres an opportunity to express lots of outrage at how supposedly antisemitic anyone is who blames the Israeli government for the death....

btw, the reason I think there's a high level of fake outrage over Leunig's cartoon is that I know of many other situations where that quote has been used. I never saw that as accusing whoever was being criticised as being Nazis, but being a statement on what can happen if people sit back and say nothing and say it's okay because it's not happening to them.

So, do you think everyone who's ever adapted that quote to fit their own political agenda/situation is indulging in antisemitism? I don't. Also, I'm guessing that there's maybe one or two other regulars in this group who read The Age and see Leunig's cartoons on any sort of regular basis. Can't say I've had any great urge to go out and harm someone when I read his cartoons, not even when they're cartoons I don't particularly like...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #139)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:30 AM

141. I agree,

Makes no sense that political cartoons should evoke such high octane outrage.

Best that offense is registered in editorials and debate than violence.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #128)


Response to KimonoGirl (Reply #138)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:44 AM

143. 'If you aren't a Jew and you end up dead in this conflict.... You probably deserved it.'

That is a terrible thing to say.

I hope you do not mean that in your heart.

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