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Sat Nov 24, 2012, 03:55 PM

Hamas: Jews will think twice before attacking Iran

Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar said Saturday that after Hamas' rain of rocket fire that reached as far as Tel Aviv and paralyzed swathes of southern Israel, "the Jews will think twice before" attacking Iran.

"We have no choice but to continue to bring in weapons by all possible means," he said, adding that he expected Tehran would "increase its military and financial support to Hamas."

"We have a right to take money and weapons from Iran. They (Iran) give to us for the sake of God, no conditions attached, and I am a witness to that," Zahar told reporters.

"If they don't like it, let them compete with Iran in giving us weapons and money," he said in an apparent jab at the Gulf states.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4311107,00.html

71 replies, 5078 views

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Reply Hamas: Jews will think twice before attacking Iran (Original post)
oberliner Nov 2012 OP
dlwickham Nov 2012 #1
oberliner Nov 2012 #2
azurnoir Nov 2012 #3
oberliner Nov 2012 #5
azurnoir Nov 2012 #42
oberliner Nov 2012 #45
dlwickham Nov 2012 #7
azurnoir Nov 2012 #8
dlwickham Nov 2012 #6
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #26
oberliner Nov 2012 #31
azurnoir Nov 2012 #9
oberliner Nov 2012 #10
Bonobo Nov 2012 #54
AverageJoe90 Nov 2012 #4
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #11
oberliner Nov 2012 #13
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #15
oberliner Nov 2012 #17
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #18
oberliner Nov 2012 #20
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #21
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #24
oberliner Nov 2012 #32
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #51
aquart Nov 2012 #29
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #30
oberliner Nov 2012 #33
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #48
sabbat hunter Nov 2012 #61
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #12
oberliner Nov 2012 #14
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #16
oberliner Nov 2012 #19
azurnoir Nov 2012 #22
oberliner Nov 2012 #34
azurnoir Nov 2012 #38
oberliner Nov 2012 #40
azurnoir Nov 2012 #41
oberliner Nov 2012 #46
azurnoir Nov 2012 #58
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #23
oberliner Nov 2012 #35
King_David Nov 2012 #39
azurnoir Nov 2012 #43
oberliner Nov 2012 #44
azurnoir Nov 2012 #47
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #49
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #50
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #52
oberliner Nov 2012 #63
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #68
oberliner Nov 2012 #69
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #70
delrem Nov 2012 #25
aquart Nov 2012 #28
oberliner Nov 2012 #36
delrem Nov 2012 #55
oberliner Nov 2012 #57
delrem Nov 2012 #60
oberliner Nov 2012 #62
delrem Nov 2012 #71
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #37
delrem Nov 2012 #56
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #59
King_David Nov 2012 #67
aquart Nov 2012 #27
Turbineguy Nov 2012 #53
Alamuti Lotus Nov 2012 #64
oberliner Nov 2012 #65
Alamuti Lotus Nov 2012 #66

Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 04:05 PM

1. but I thought it was the Israelis and not the Jews

isn't that what some people post on here?

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Response to dlwickham (Reply #1)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 04:16 PM

2. Hamas leadership hasn't gotten that memo

They sometimes use the two interchangeably (if they even use Israel at all, which they often don't).

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 04:43 PM

3. so this was announced in English I take it?

and gee weren't we being told that there is little relationship between Hamas and Iran just a short time ago?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 07:24 PM

5. Here's the Ma'an News article on the statement

Hamas leader expects Iran support to grow

Excerpt:

In a rare phone call to Hamas' Gaza leader Haniyeh, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad praised what he called Palestinian "resistance and perseverance" against Israel, which he said must now "bow" to Palestinian rights, IRNA news agency reported.

Al-Zahhar said that after Hamas's rain of rocket fire that reached as far as Tel Aviv and paralyzed swathes of southern Israel, "the Jews will think twice before" attacking Iran, as Israel has earlier hinted it might do to stop a nuclear program the West fears is destined to produce atomic weapons.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=541646

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Response to oberliner (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:45 PM

42. Interesting neither the line or the article appear in Arabic

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://www.maannews.net/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmaan%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DyfP%26tbo%3Dd%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial&sa=X&ei=j4KyUOeBHKjUyQHuoYH4Dw&ved=0CEYQ7gEwAQ

perhaps this so called translation was for Western consumption?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #42)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:31 PM

45. So-called translation?

Are you serious?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 08:47 PM

7. who was stupid enough to say that

Iran has been arming Hamas I think since day one or at least for a long while now

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Response to dlwickham (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 10:57 PM

8. here you might have to go a couple of posts back to get the full picture

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 08:46 PM

6. still sounds like some posters on here

that haven't received that memo either

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Response to dlwickham (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:21 AM

26. Like who?

Please, share.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:20 AM

31. Calling out other posters is against the rules

At least I think it still is.

So they can't answer your question - maybe try a PM.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 10:58 PM

9. so it was announced in Hamas I see my confusion I did not know Hamas was a language

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #9)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:14 PM

10. I'm not sure what you are confused about

It was reported in English in various sources. I assume he made the remarks in Arabic.

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Response to dlwickham (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:13 PM

54. I'm Jewish. Is it me? nt

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 04:50 PM

4. I'm all for Hamas getting their asses kicked.

Somebody oughta teach those fascist assholes a lesson. Unfortunately, the Likudniks are either too chicken to do things the right away, or. in the more extreme cases, salivate over the deaths of more Palestinians(the same way Hamas delights in the murder of Jews).

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:14 PM

11. We already knew this guy was an asshole.

Nobody here supports Hamas.

Supporting an end to the privations inflicted on Gaza isn't about approving of Hamas...it's about opposing collective punishment.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #11)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:16 PM

13. Which Palestinian political party do people here support?

Any of them?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:44 PM

15. I don't think they support any particular party.

The solidarity is with the people.

At most, the argument has been that Hamas was going to have to be included in the process in some way...that it wasn't going to go away. There's a significant difference between taking that view and between expressing actual support FOR Hamas.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:53 PM

17. Hamas is made up of people

In fact, if you held an election in Gaza right now, the people would probably re-elect Hamas in a landslide.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #17)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:56 PM

18. How about before the recent bombings?

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:01 AM

20. I think it would have been close

Too close for Hamas, which is why they have seen to it that no elections have taken place even though they are overdue.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:03 AM

21. I agree. If it were a fair election Hamas may have lost because they got the people nothing.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:59 AM

24. An observation that helps make the case AGAINST the kind of tactics Israel just used against Gaza.

What did Israel gain in this that could possibly have been worth making it easier for Hamas to hold popular support?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:21 AM

32. What should Israel done to make the rockets from Gaza stop?

I am curious to know what action you think would have been appropriate to prevent the rockets.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:49 PM

51. I'd go with real negotiations, first for a non-aggression treaty, with a "hudna" being enforced

WHILE the negotiations are in place(by outside peacekeepers if necessary).

Also, I'd offer at least a couple of concessions to make life easier for ordinary Gaza residents...

1)Let the fishermen fish up to twenty miles from shore(as they were supposed to be allowed to do)

2)Let Gaza residents travel to the West Bank via Israel in buses after being searched for weapons(there's no reason to force them to try and travel through Egypt...not ALL Gaza residents are psychopaths and if they've been searched for weapons, it shouldn't matter if they pass through Israeli territory in buses.)

Those are a couple of things that might help.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:58 AM

29. Nice dodge. Hamas was legally elected.

Just as we had to take the heat for the Bushes and Reagan, the Palestinians get to own their own corrupt, murderous leadership.

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Response to aquart (Reply #29)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:13 AM

30. Then again, our own corrupt, murderous(far MORE murderous than Hamas in the scheme of things)

leadership does NOT justify other countries launching missiles at population centere in the U.S.

And, if we agree on that, then we'd have to agree that it's wrong to attack civilians in any OTHER country because of the bad leadership they happen to live under.

And the question oberliner asked wasn't about what Palestinian party people in Gaza support...he asked what party people HERE(that is, on DU)support. And the answer remains that people here(on DU and I think this goes for people in various international solidarity groups as well)don't support ANY particular Palestinian party...At most some have said that, like it or not, Hamas is there and has to be included in some way in the negotiating process...that outsiders(including Israel)don't have the right to specify who should and should not be in the leadership in Palestine and Gaza...that to insist on the right to state which leaders are and are not "acceptable" is pretty close to imperialism.

Saying that doesn't mean that those saying it support the current leaderships...simply that the recognize that those leaderships are there. OK?

And given that the attacks by Israel seem only to have increased Hamas' support(when it was falling and likely would have continued to fall)isn't it clear that the idea of using force against Gaza to provoke a civilian revolt against Hamas is, and will always be, an absolute failure as a strategy?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:23 AM

33. I definitely prefer some Palestinian political parties to others

Hamas would be towards the bottom.

Similarly, I prefer some Israeli political parties to others.

I would think most I/P posters here would feel similarly.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:39 PM

48. I honestly don't support either Hamas OR Fatah.

And there's a distinction between "prefer" and "support". Saying someone supports such parties implies actual allegiance rather than the kind of "beats a kick in the head" sentiment that "prefers" connotes.

I honestly don't think anybody here is a strong partisan of either Fatah or Hamas, for the record.

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Response to aquart (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:22 AM

61. not really

Hamas won a plurality of the vote, then took full control via violent action with their terror arm.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:14 PM

12. Al-Zahar should shut the fuck up.

But this is just on him and his mob...NOT the entire population of Gaza.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:17 PM

14. Which part of what he said do you think people in Gaza don't agree with?

You think these statements are unpopular there?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:50 PM

16. What I think is that the people of Gaza are angry with Israel...not "The Jews".

And that what this bigoted idiot says doesn't chance that.

I doubt that they'd be ok with the status quo if only it was a state claiming to act in the name of some OTHER religion or culture imposing it.

It serves no purpose to demonize the entire population of Gaza.

Besides...if they DID agree with those statements, do you really think that it would be possible to bomb or starve them into NOT agreeing with them?

The answer remains to deal with the real issues here...not to insist on ascribing the worst of all possible motives to every single person in Gaza, as you(please tell me I'm wrong here)now appear to be trying to do. The only reason to try to do that is to try to soften the world up for the use of far more brutal tactics against the populace of the Strip. You can't honestly be wanting to do THAT, for God's sake.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #16)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:59 PM

19. I think you are wrong

I think these sentiments would be expressed fairly commonly in Gaza.

I have no interest in demonizing the entire population of Gaza. And I certainly don't believe they should be bombed or starved or anything like that.

I think, though, people need to stop pretending and stop inaccurately imposing their own perspective on others who do not view the world the same way.

I also think you make some preposterous assumptions in your last paragraph. Soften the world up for brutal tactics? Good lord!

No one's reading my posts except maybe a dozen or so DUers, so let's not imagine that anything I am writing here is having any impact on "the world" and let's try to have an actual discussion about the issues and see what we can conclude together.

To pretend that this conflict has nothing to do with religion is just silly.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:26 AM

22. so you are claiming the people of Gaza are not angry at Israel but rather every Jew on Earth?

well okay then

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:28 AM

34. I'm claiming most people in Gaza would not object to his statement

In fact, I am quite confident I have seen similar statements from ordinary Palestinians living in Gaza. Have you not encountered anything like that?

Has there been any outcry in Gaza against this prominent Hamas leader's comments about Jews? Has he been asked to apologize?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:05 PM

38. in other words yes n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:28 PM

40. If you think that is what Zahar meant...

Personally, I don't - but whatever works for you.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #40)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:35 PM

41. you were not speaking only of Zahar here "I think these sentiments would be expressed fairly common"

n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:31 PM

46. Exactly

I don't think his sentiments are what you seem to be reading into them.

I am only going on what he actually said, not what you seem to think he means.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #46)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:50 PM

58. No I think you are attempting to backtrack on your own statements that seem to indicate

you believe that the people of Gaza not only control Hamas actions (I'll supply the link to those statements if you wish) but that the people of Gaza back Zahar's statement exactly as he spoke it

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Response to oberliner (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:55 AM

23. Religion in this case is simply an expression of nationalism...on BOTH sides

Gazans are angry because of the way the Israeli government has treated them-not because the Israeli government purports to be "the Jewish state". It's absurd to suggest that they'd be just fine being treated in this way if only it were other Muslims or other Arabs inflicting the treatment...that implies that hatred is more important to these people than dignity itself, than, possibly, life itself.

It dehumanizes Gazans to make such arguments. And, in dehumanizing them, it enables those who want to inflict more suffering on them...because if it can be argued that Gaza's anger has no legitimacy, no grounding at all in reality, than it becomes far easier to argue that it doesn't matter how many of these people are killed.

Also, I believe a distinction can be made between the opinions and tactics of Hamas, on the one hand, and the opinions and tactics of the ordinary people of Gaza on the other. It's Hamas itself launching the rockets, it's Hamas itself insisting on aiming them at civilians. Rank-and-file Gazans, while they do believe they have the right to resist the Israelis, wouldn't automatically chose tactics that are that masochistic and self-defeating.

Finally, yes, it's true that your posts here(like mine)are only being read by a few...but I wasn't talking about your posts alone there. The ideas you are expressing are part of a larger argument the Israeli government is making here...that government is essentially that the people of Gaza are, at this point, completely unredeemable and of no value as human beings. You aren't making that argument yourself, but they are.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:37 AM

35. You are the one doing the dehumanizing

Palestinians are capable of their own rational thinking and are capable of expressing themselves. For you, as a non-Palestinian, to say that you know better, that you know what they really mean, is the height of dehumanization.

To dismiss religion in the way that you to is to disregard and disrespect the central role that religion plays in the lives of large numbers of Palestinians and Israelis. That you can make the statements you made here and claim you have any idea what "rank-and-file Gazans" believe is preposterous.

First of all, there is no such thing as a "Gazan" there is no Palestinian living in Gaza who would call themselves a "Gazan". And heaven knows what you mean by "rank and file" - are the Palestinians who voted for Hamas not rank-and-file? And your bizarre attempt to separate Hamas from the Palestinians who are currently waving their flag and cheering for their victory is similarly not grounded in reality.

If anyone is making the argument that the people of Gaza are "completely unredeemable and of no value as human beings" it is you. You are saying you think you know what they want and what they believe better than they do themselves. That is as insulting as it gets.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:06 PM

39. Well said. nt

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Response to oberliner (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 04:00 PM

43. yes in the very recent past you have stated that it is indeed the people of Gaza that control Hamas

that Hamas is doing their bidding

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #43)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:26 PM

44. Do the Democrats in your Congress do your bidding?

That's not exactly the way legislatures work.

As Americans, though, we do take some responsibility for those we elected to office.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 05:34 PM

47. your reply is quite nonsensical and has nothing to do with my comment

except perhaps as a way to dodge?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:42 PM

49. They weren't doing my bidding when they voted to back wars. Or when they funded the Contras.

(A group that was morally indistinguishable from Hamas)

Or, in the past, when the looked the other way when the CIA assassinated the elected leaders of other countries.

So no...I am not responsible for the worst things my own leaders did.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:45 PM

50. I was using the term "Gazan" to denote Gaza residents.

Since they were the ones under attack in this particular exchange, rather than Palestinians as a whole.

Your whole argument comes down to "they all WANT Hamas to do what it does...so it's ok for Bibi to do anything he wants to THEM."

You're making excuses for killing civilians.

And you're assuming that everybody in Gaza is part of a hivemind.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:54 PM

52. Zionism has never BEEN exclusively religious, though.

Most of the founders of the state were Jewish athiests. At least half the population of Israel identifies as secular.

It's as much about culture as anything else.

And a large degree of historic Arab opposition was about the fact that Israel represented the introduction of Western European culture in their midst-so they'd have had the same reaction to the creation of an Italian Catholic or Scottish Presbyterian state being created where Israel was.

And Arabs and Muslims, historically, were far less hateful towards Jews as a religion and an ethnicity than Christian Europe and Christian North America were for most of their history. There was no Arab Hitler...there was no Muslim Torquemada.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #52)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:41 AM

63. Have you ever been to Jerusalem?

I daresay the single issue that has prevented a peace accord from ever actually being agreed to is disputes over this city, and it's various holy sites for different religious groups.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #63)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:35 PM

68. I'm familiar with the situation in Jerusalem.

Nonetheless, Israel existed for nineteen years without having total control over Jerusalem.

Yes, there is a religious component, but Islam and Judaism co-existed for centuries before the Zionist movement came into existence...and Arabs and Jews co-existed in many countries with far less trouble than Jews and Christians did.

You can't reduce it to "they hate the Jews and they hate Judaism". Insisting on reducing this dispute to that is mainly about demonizing Arabs and Muslims and oversimplifying a conflict driven as much by culture and by fear of a return of European imperialism as anything else.

It serves no purpose to simply argue that Arabs and Muslims have quarrelled with Zionism solely out of bigotry. It simply can't be that simple. Nothing is, anywhere.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #68)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:15 PM

69. You can't reduce it either

All I am suggesting is that you ignore the religious dimension to the conflict at your peril.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #69)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:28 PM

70. I don't ignore it...I just don't accept that it's the only thing that matters in this.

Or that the most appropriate thing is to shame the side that's BEING oppressed in to being nicer to their oppressors. People do need to remember that most of the population of the West Bank and Gaza are essentially living at the mercy of Bibi and the IDF high command.

Yes, the Palestinians have bad leaders on their own side, but the reason they even need to HAVE a side is that the status quo has been maintained.

At this point, the best thing would be for the U.S. and Israel to just let the UN admit Palestine as a nation...with Palestine comprising the West Bank and Gaza. Keep it simple. Get it done.

The Palestinians have no reason to trust the negotiating process with Israel...they have no reason to think that those negotiations will lead to anything but a Palestinian state that, at BEST, is as small and helpless as possible...a state that can be taken away from them again at a moment's notice.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 02:36 AM

25. to oberliner

oberliner:
"I have no interest in demonizing the entire population of Gaza. And I certainly don't believe they should be bombed or starved or anything like that. "

That is nice sentiment and, having read your posts for quite some time, I think you very much want to be fair. You don't want to be considered a "Zionist extremist", and I don't think you are, tho' I think you are very heavily influenced by extremist thinking.

So, you don't believe Palestinians should be bombed or starved, or anything like that, even though they are, and I suppose you don't think Palestinians should have their land and water and natural resources usurped, their communication systems disrupted, and all of that, even tho' that's what has happened. Right? You would like a nation where equals deal with equals, regardless of their specific differences? Even in Judea and Samaria and Gaza?

In opposition to this is the default mantra that one specific culture is "white and intrinsically good" whereas the other is "black and intrinsically evil", so war is the only option. But I don't think that argument is sound.

So, who is going to step up to the plate?

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Response to delrem (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:54 AM

28. "Usurped"? What a steaming platter of meadow muffins.

But then, I've never liked KoolAid since I was five. Still, that's a nice picnic of mythology you've set up.

And how sweet of you to be the self-appointed judge of who is a "Zionist extremist." Not you, is my best guess.

Glad you feel its okey-dokey to bomb Israeli cities and buses. All great humanitarians are fine with that.

Have the muffin with the dark specks. They're chocolate chips.

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Response to delrem (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 08:38 AM

36. Not sure what you are asking

What do you mean by "step up to the plate"?

Can you clarify your question?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 09:49 PM

55. clarify? maybe... or not

I guess I left the question ambiguous because the lead-up to it indicated the ballpark, and who was "at bat". That is, and for example, the indigenous Palestinian people whose roots are in the west bank, in particular (tho' whose roots are generations deep in historical Palestine, in general), have been left nothing to say re. when and where yet another ethnically exclusive (of them) "settlement" will be placed in their most strategic territories. Having been left nothing to say, their voices not being heard, they aren't the ones "at bat" in my awkward metaphor.

I know, even saying that little bit is too much for many - there'll be interjections about "rockets" or "they started it" or ... but to clarify, I'm suggesting that the Israeli citizens, or rather, the Israeli "nationals", who are "at bat", who are in a position (because Israel is a true democracy for Israeli nationals) to do something.

Nobody can give a perfectly accurate description of what is happening - analogies to other historical times and places (e.g. apartheid S.A., etc) just give fodder for attacking the appropriateness of the analogy, thereby avoiding the issue and creating more fug. Likewise the descriptors of any attempt to characterize the situation in "the territories" can be attacked for nitpicking errors in semantics, creating fug. The situation is so bad, in this respect (the creation of fug by attacking descriptive terms for not being perfect) that I wonder if I must avoid terms like "occupation", and "Palestine", to satisfy Zionist partisans who deny that there exists or ever existed a "Palestine", and that there is no "occupation",..., etc?

I guess the best route is to avoid metaphors, analogies, similarities, even descriptives, and pare my words down to the bare bones. OK, so if I reluctantly go along with avoiding terms like "Palestine", " indigenous Palestinian people", "occupation", and so on, the issue boils down that there are *people* living on this land, that they are divided into *Jewish* and *not-Jewish*, * Israeli* and *not-Israeli*, that some Israeli citizens are not-Jewish, so these people aren't "Israeli nationals" - and all this is according to Israeli law. Now, one well-known principle of universal justice for the peoples of a modern democracy is that all people, regardless of gender, race, religion, etc., ought to be treated equally under the law.

We know that historically this principle has been implemented piecemeal - a cursory reading of the history of the U.S.A. shows this, that progress is slow, very slow, and piecemeal. But that progress is relentless - governed by the same universally understood ideal. In the long run there's no stopping it, and the result is a better world. Political emancipation helps *everyone*, everyone benefits in the long run, and time after time the fear-mongers are proven wrong.

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Response to delrem (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:43 PM

57. I still have no idea what you are asking

Forget about all the mumbo jumbo. No need to make assumptions or be cautious about wording.

Can you just ask your question in a direct and succinct way?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #57)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 11:44 PM

60. I did. n/t

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Response to delrem (Reply #60)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:38 AM

62. What was it?

Can you just repost the actual question? Is it just the one about stepping up to the plate? Again, I'm not sure what to respond to.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #62)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:36 PM

71. enough

You've given enough of an answer to show me the quality of discussion to expect from you in future.
So, a slightly different way, have aquart and King_David.

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Response to delrem (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:22 PM

37. Welcome to DU! Hope you enjoy debating here.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:36 PM

56. Thanks!

I dunno about "debate", tho', since already I've been called someone who is "okey-dokey to bomb Israeli cities and buses."
It'd be funny if the situation weren't so sad.

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Response to delrem (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:55 PM

59. Challenge them my friend! welcome and know that I am against the killing of all!

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Response to delrem (Reply #56)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:27 PM

67. Can you link that for us ? nt

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 03:42 AM

27. Hamas is protecting IRAN?

With friends like Hamas, who needs enemies?

I also appreciated Zahar's attempt to start a bidding war between Iran and the Gulf States for Hamas' loyalty.

All in all, with some rehearsal and some polish, a decently adequate comedy club routine.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:55 PM

53. I remember when the Talliban were using a stadium

paid for by members of the EU as a public execution ground. When questioned, the answer was that if the Europeans would pay for a new building, they would be able to shoot people someplace else.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 07:04 PM

64. not surprisingly, this piece inaccurately reflects Hamas' growing rift with Iran

 

Of the prominent officials, I believe only Zahar still maintains any close ties, as well as some prominent Izzaddin al-Qassam commanders. The rest of the political wing--Mesha'al especially--has since been taking more money and influence from the Wahhabi dictatorships in Saudi Arabia and Qatar and are under the umbrella of the emerging Ikhwani dictatorship in Egypt. The relationship between most of the officials-in-exile and Iran has deteriorated accordingly, as the counterrevolutionary forces led by the Wahhabi dictators have prodded them to bite the hand of their former patrons. I forget where Haniyyah stands; since he is on the ground in Gaza and does not issue statements from the security and opulence of some Gulf dictatorship, he probably treads a finer line between the two camps.

Nonetheless, the statement of Zahar is probably quite true. Most of the hasbarrios here seem to be only reacting to the word "Jews" as if the word itself was a bright red flag waved before dimwitted bulls (the actual quote in the original interview does not use this particular phraseology, but rather was the apparent invention and liberal use of artistic license on the part of Ynet's writer), but the point he is making is probably quite accurate. If the Israeli terrorist forces cannot handle the fairly primitive(*) armaments of the various resistance factions in Gaza, their gusto for taking on a powerful nation with advanced weaponry and roughly 10X the population might have taken a sharp blow from this brief campaign.

The entire interview at its original source is worth reading, as opposed to the sound-bytes butchered by thoroughly biased Israeli sources. You can find it at the link below; here are a couple segments relevant to the article above:
Israel claims that it has undermined Hamas's power in Gaza; what do you think?

Absolutely not true. The Israeli acceptance of our conditions in the ceasefire agreement proves what I say. We also continued to fire rockets until the last minute before the ceasefire.

Remember, the Israelis were not brave in their attacks, they dropped bombs on civilians and massacred several families.

Now, I think that the Israelis might stop thinking about targeting Iran over its nuclear programme.

Several sides, including prominent Arabic regimes, accuse Hamas of fighting on behalf of Iran. You said earlier that the Israelis might stop thinking of targeting Iran. This is evidence for what Hamas's critics say, isn't it?

This is a baseless accusation. We fight only for our rights, to protect our freedom and to defend our people. Iran stands with us and gives us unconditional support. I am asking those who blame us for accepting Iran's support to stand with us and fulfil our needs in order that we may stand without Iran.

With regards to what I said about Israeli plans to target Iran, this is what I expect from our experience with the Israelis in Gaza during the war. The Israelis were surprised by the relatively primitive capabilities of the Palestinian fighters. This means that they are too weak to fight an organised army with sophisticated military equipment.

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/interviews/4724-mahmoud-al-zahar-latest-offensive-has-pushed-israel-to-review-its-strategy

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Response to Alamuti Lotus (Reply #64)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 07:39 PM

65. Is Iran's Press TV a "thoroughly biased Israeli source" ?

This is from Iran's Press TV:

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar says the Israeli regime will now "think twice" before launching an attack on Iran following its failure in the Gaza war.

"The Jews will think twice before" attacking Iran, al-Zahar said on Saturday.

The resistance movements in the tiny blockaded enclave managed, for the first time in two decades, to target Tel Aviv with rockets and missiles they had produced using, according to the Commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC), Iranian technology.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/11/25/274428/israel-will-think-twice-for-iran-attack/

They do substitute "Israel" for "The Jews" in the headline, although in the body of the article they include the quote cited above where Zahar says "The Jews" rather than "Israel".

Is Iran's Press TV run by "hasbarrios" as well?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #65)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 07:48 PM

66. yes, possibly so..

 

In other news, was that really the only thing I said there that was worth responding to?

(*)--"yes, possibly so..." is of course not to be taken literally; with what little interest I still have in this story, I'm looking into the possibility of similar, but multiple and distinct statements given to the press recently..
(**)--actually, I'm not; that's just a trivial objection to singularly focus on and a petty distraction at best. There is an interesting point there, but I suppose it's easier to tilt at windmills and misdirection, as per usual.

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