Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael has moved to the right, but it is not an apartheid state
My experience of apartheid in South Africa leads me to think a survey of Israeli attitudes towards Arabs has been spun too far
That Israel's Jewish public has moved sharply to the right in recent years is well known. There's a rightwing government to prove it and so beyond challenge is Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and so confident about his hold on power, that he has called early elections for January. Indeed the government will shift even further to the right with this week's dramatic announcement that Netanyahu's Likud party will join forces for the elections with the foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu (Israel Our Home).
Lieberman, who speaks for many of the Russian immigrants who form about 20% of the population, stands well to the right of even the rightwing Likud, so Netanyahu could run into problems with some of his own members in addition to their resentment at being pushed down the list for parliamentary seats. If the link endures greater curtailment of civil liberties can be expected, harsher attitudes towards Israeli Arabs who also form about 20% of the population, and less influence for Jewish religious parties.
Even with all this, the extent of the hostility expressed by Israeli Jews towards the country's Arab citizens, reported in an opinion survey this week, still comes as a shock: among much else, 42% said they don't want their children in the same school class with Arab children and 42% don't want to live in the same building with Arabs.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/26/israel-arabs-not-apartheid?newsfeed=true
King_David
(14,851 posts)---------------------------------
The survey's picture is very different for the secular who form the majority of Israel's Jews: 73% did not object to having Arabs in their children's school, and 68% would live in an apartment building alongside Arabs.
These are remarkably positive views in light of the effect of the Palestinian suicide bombings during the Second Intifada in driving many Israeli Jews to the right, plus the continuing threats to Israel's existence by Iran and Palestinian militants and their supporters in the world. The firing of rockets and mortars more than 80 this week at southern Israel from the Gaza Strip by Hamas and others adds to antipathy towards Palestinians. Rightwing leaders gain support by playing on Jewish fears.
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I know about apartheid. I was born in South Africa and spent 26 years as a journalist specialising in reporting apartheid; I have also written several books about it. I only left South Africa because my newspaper, the Rand Daily Mail, of which I was then deputy editor, was closed down by its commercial owners under pressure from the government. We paid the price for being the country's leading voice against apartheid.
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Whatever attitudes might be claimed for Israel's Jewish public the situation on the ground does not support accusations of apartheid
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Why do I dismiss the apartheid analogies so emphatically? Because I straddle both apartheid South Africa and Israel today and have knowledge of the good and the ill in both societies.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)jody
(26,624 posts)APARTHEID : racial segregation; specifically : a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
King_David
(14,851 posts)Prominent anti apartheid activist .
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)while there are discriminatory practices and laws they are applied equally to all Israeli citizens
shira
(30,109 posts)Like the blood libel about Israelis just killing Gazans, this is yet another demonizing narrative.
You want apartheid vs. Palestinians, look no further up north than Lebanon.
Funny you deny it happening there, where Palestinians cannot own land, cannot vote, and cannot be in numerous professions.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)thought the Palestinians were pretty much outcasts there as well
shira
(30,109 posts)dlwickham
(3,316 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)on the matter as your comment would imply so what ideas on the matter do you have?
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)just wondering out loud
maybe the Jordanians and the Syrians don't want them either
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and Syria is in chaos at the moment, but thanks for reiterating the complaint that those nasty Arabs won't solve Israels Palestinian problem for it
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Why is that exactly?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or is this yet something else you do not wish to discuss?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there are some Palestinian refugees in Jordan mostly from Gaza whom Israel encouraged to move there in the early 1970's when it was attempting to shuffle Gaza's Palestinian population
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)This snip is about legal conditions in the West Bank
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=534074
2 peoples being subject to different treatment under the same legal system based on their ethnicity, textbook apartheid
shira
(30,109 posts)...isn't the least bit careful, and Hamas has zero to do with it due to their strategy of victimizing their citizens. Even Goldstone eventually admitted intentionality to do harm to Palestinians was a bullshit charge.
And really, if it's not apartheid against Palestinians in Lebanon, Jordan, or Syria then what makes you think Israel is any worse than those countries - earning the dreaded apartheid label?
That's right, they're not worse so if it's not apartheid anywhere else in the mideast, it isn't in Israel either. But let's see you try to argue what Israel does is definitely apartheid in comparison to neighboring Arab states.
Go for it!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)against Sudanese and Ethiopian refugees as to Jordan, it has allowed millions of Palestinians citizenship so many that almost half of its citizenry are ethnically Palestinian and Syria things there are so anarchy that little can be said except for that the situation is tragic as to your ravings about Arab countries lets take a look at a thing called facts shall we Palestinians in foreign countries such as those you named are refugees from colonial Palestine who were made refuges by the newly born Israel who is now enforcing its own colonial rule over the West Bank
shira
(30,109 posts)Is that apartheid or not?
As to your claim WRT 2 rules for 2 peoples, the WB settlements have thousands of Arab/Palestinian Israeli citizens living in them as equals. How's that apartheid?
Funny that you claim what Israel does is worse than Lebanese apartheid. Israel is the only nation in the region who has granted Palestinians citizenship & equal rights in Israel (where they vote, serve on the supreme court, etc).
Lastly, the situation WRT refugees now in foreign countries is a result of those nations perpetuating Palestinian misery. You can argue Israel started it, but you cannot possibly blame Israel 60 years later for its perpetuation.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)list them and their population of Arabs, or are attempting to weasel the population of East Jerusalem?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)if Lebanon is committing apartheid against Palestinian refugees then Israel is committing the same against Black African refugees by imprisoning them for being refugees