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Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:44 PM

Amnesty takes action against official’s tweets

The human rights group Amnesty International has began disciplinary procedures against a senior member of its staff after posting an offensive tweet targeting Jewish members of the British parliament.

In a tweet he posted on Tuesday, Kristyan Benedict, Amnesty International’s campaign manager, said “Louise Ellman, Robert Halfon and Luciana Berger walk into a bar... each orders a round of B52s #Gaza.” Benedict was alluding to B-52 long-range strategic bombers, which is also the name of a popular cocktail, in his reference to three Jewish MPs.

Amnesty distanced itself from the tweet and said the matter has been referred to its internal, and confidential, processes.

“This was a private tweet, sent from a private account. We do not believe that humor is appropriate in the current circumstances, particularly from our own members of staff,” said Amnesty’s campaigns director Tim Hancock on Wednesday.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=292978

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Reply Amnesty takes action against official’s tweets (Original post)
azurnoir Nov 2012 OP
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #1
azurnoir Nov 2012 #3
oberliner Nov 2012 #11
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #55
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #54
King_David Nov 2012 #2
azurnoir Nov 2012 #4
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #6
azurnoir Nov 2012 #8
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #16
azurnoir Nov 2012 #40
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #57
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #56
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #58
King_David Nov 2012 #77
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #78
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #59
King_David Nov 2012 #7
azurnoir Nov 2012 #9
King_David Nov 2012 #13
azurnoir Nov 2012 #15
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #52
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #5
azurnoir Nov 2012 #10
King_David Nov 2012 #12
azurnoir Nov 2012 #14
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #17
azurnoir Nov 2012 #20
azurnoir Nov 2012 #26
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #74
King_David Nov 2012 #79
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #80
King_David Nov 2012 #82
azurnoir Nov 2012 #81
King_David Nov 2012 #18
azurnoir Nov 2012 #19
shira Nov 2012 #25
azurnoir Nov 2012 #27
shira Nov 2012 #34
azurnoir Nov 2012 #37
shira Nov 2012 #60
King_David Nov 2012 #21
holdencaufield Nov 2012 #22
King_David Nov 2012 #23
azurnoir Nov 2012 #33
azurnoir Nov 2012 #24
King_David Nov 2012 #28
azurnoir Nov 2012 #29
King_David Nov 2012 #30
azurnoir Nov 2012 #31
King_David Nov 2012 #45
azurnoir Nov 2012 #46
King_David Nov 2012 #47
azurnoir Nov 2012 #32
oberliner Nov 2012 #35
shira Nov 2012 #36
azurnoir Nov 2012 #39
shira Nov 2012 #62
azurnoir Nov 2012 #38
oberliner Nov 2012 #41
azurnoir Nov 2012 #42
oberliner Nov 2012 #43
azurnoir Nov 2012 #44
oberliner Nov 2012 #48
azurnoir Nov 2012 #49
oberliner Nov 2012 #50
azurnoir Nov 2012 #51
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #53
shira Nov 2012 #61
azurnoir Nov 2012 #63
shira Nov 2012 #65
azurnoir Nov 2012 #66
shira Nov 2012 #67
azurnoir Nov 2012 #69
shira Nov 2012 #70
shira Nov 2012 #68
azurnoir Nov 2012 #71
shira Nov 2012 #72
azurnoir Nov 2012 #75
King_David Nov 2012 #64
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #73
King_David Nov 2012 #76

Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:46 PM

1. But, remember ...

 

... antisemitism isn't related to anti-Israel sentiments.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:52 PM

3. as you have been told prior

in the majority of cases antiIsrael sentiments are no more related to antisemitism than ProIsrael sentiments are related to Islamiphobia or antiArabism bit in a few cases they are indeed one and the same

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:05 PM

11. You cannot truly believe this

How do you define "a few cases"?

Maybe check Ma'an news - you can see Palestinians using Jew and Israeli interchangeably on a regular basis.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #3)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:29 AM

55. Or that "Pro-Israel" statements are related to philosemitism.

Balfour supported the idea of a Jewish homeland because he wanted as close to a Judenrein Britain as he could get. Many U.S. gentiles who supported the creation of Israel in the 1940's were also at least closet antisemites(you can find some ugly quotes from Harry Truman on that score).

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:27 AM

54. In the vast majority of cases, it isn't.

This certainly proves that Amnesty is vigilant on antisemitism.

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:51 PM

2. These organizations such as Amnesty and Free Gaza Movement

Seem to be filled to the brim with anti semites or anti Zionists as they call themselves ...(Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza movement and flotilla's ,anybody ?)

The organization has a hard time taming their members.

The bigots seem comfortable in these anti Zionist organizations.

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Response to King_David (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:54 PM

4. as I told another poster being antiIsrael (really antioccupation) is as related to antisemitism

as being proIsrael is to being Islamiphobic or antiArab

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:57 PM

6. "I told another poster"

 

So ... you were wrong twice?

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #6)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:02 PM

8. no I was not wrong at all so you are saying

that being against Israels current occupation of the West Bank and blockade of Gaza is antisemitic?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #8)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:14 PM

16. No ...

 

... what I'm saying here ... that people who take a vitriolic, hyperbolic, completely biased position against Israel. People who hold Israel to a higher standard than any other country in the world. People who believe that Israel can NEVER take a conciliatory position with the Palestinians (despite the evidence to the contrary) because it isn't in the "Israeli" nature. People who call Netanyahu the personification of Hitler and Hamas are just misunderstood freedom fighters. People who will scream from the church steeples about "outdoor prisons" and "starving Palestinians" but secretly smile about rocket attacks and bus bombers against Israel as "justified and excusable actions against the Zionist oppressor". People who ignore ten thousand brutal deaths in Sudan to spend 12 hours a day tweeting about a dozen deaths in Gaza.

Those people ( and they know who they are ) aren't doing so out of any love or compassion for the Palestinians. They have another, vile, motivation behind their false outrage.

Being against the occupation is fine -- I'm against it myself. But to pretend that Israel is the sole guilty party in this is so dogmatically skewed that there has to be an underlying reason.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:47 PM

40. so your saying that Amnesty International has not reported on Sudan?

and I find this quote curious

People who will scream from the church steeples about "outdoor prisons" and "starving Palestinians" but secretly smile about rocket attacks and bus bombers against Israel as "justified and excusable actions against the Zionist oppressor"


why ever would you use "church steeples" as an example are you saying that Christians are antisemitic?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #40)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:32 AM

57. Amnesty has vigilantly reported human rights abuses in every Arab and Muslim country.

They've been just as hard on those countries as they were on Israel...if not harder.

What the poster you're sparring with REALLY objects to is that they don't give Israel special sanction or accept the "ends justify the means" defense when Israel makes it(as they also don't accept it when anybody ELSE makes it, for the record).

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:30 AM

56. NOBODY here "secretly smiles about rockets attacks or bus bombers against Israel"

And you damn well know it.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:36 AM

58. YOU'RE against the Occupation?

That's the first time you've ever expressed that position in this forum, to my knowledge.

And nobody here is saying that Israel is the SOLE guilty party...just the notion that the other side is the sole guilty party or the preeminently guilty one. Both sides share the blame and neither can claim moral superiority in the way they treat their opponents.

All anybody here is really guilty of is not giving Israel special deference, and not giving it special sanction to act without debate or dissent. NO state should get special deference or special sanction to act without criticism...in any situation.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #58)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 08:23 PM

77. Who are you to question if a fellow DU member is against the occupation ?

We are all against the occupation.

That is offensive.

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Response to King_David (Reply #77)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:18 AM

78. I've never heard you express opposition to it

OR to call for the Occupation to end.

Why is it offensive to express surprise that a poster holds a view she or he hasn't expressed in the group?

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 02:47 AM

59. Those people ( and they know who they are )...


Well, who are they?

Do you believe that I am one?

I don't support Hamas, and never have.

I don't secretly "smile" (sick accusation there my fellow DUer) about rocket attacks and bus bombers against Israel.

I don't ignore Sudan (why deflect away from I/P?) or tweet 12 hours per day about a dozen deaths in Gaza (nice way for you to marginalize them though).

And I've never accused Israel of being the sole guilty party.

Yet you defend Israel now with the rant about Those people ( and they know who they are )...


We expect Israel, a Democracy and ally of the USA that takes its $$, to fucking act like one and stop pretending that it doesn't have and hasn't created a fucking underclass. We expect them to respect international law, not their own fucking colonial bullshit, and remove their fucking citizens off of Palestinian lands. We expect them to do this without them rolling their eyes and pretending that the land is theirs and the Palestinians are just Arab interlopers that were holding it for them, and now they can bugger off.

To be blunt, it is hard to see them as victims when they are the ones in a position of power while victimizing others.

So spare us the BS.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:00 PM

7. These organizations seem to show that it is more prevalent than we all previously thought,

There is definitely more antisemites in these anti Israel anti Zionist movements than any of us would ever have imagined.

Its shocking to us all ,I am sure, that every day another antisemitic incident seems to occur in these 'anti Zionist' organizations.

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Response to King_David (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:03 PM

9. well everyone that gets published in a rightwing paper seems to be

but do you agree that being anti Israel's occupation of the West Bank is antisemtic?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:11 PM

13. Well I never believed it before, but recent events are convincing me

that it is a far bigger problem than any of us ever imagined,perhaps even a majority or if not a significant minority.

Agreed ?

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Response to King_David (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:14 PM

15. Nope I do not agree at all but I find it rather surprising that you'd say

you've only recently began to believe this how recent is recently?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #15)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:06 AM

52. I have begun to believe, IMvHO, that any information with regards to Israel


that paints it in anything less than a cheery light will be ignored, laughed at or called anti-Semitic by some whose motives have become questionable to me.

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Response to King_David (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:55 PM

5. By tame them ...

 

... I assume you mean make sure they don't spill the family secrets in public.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:05 PM

10. "I assume you mean make sure they don't spill the family secrets in public".

what and who's family secrets would those be? and do not leave out the details please name names please

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:07 PM

12. Everyday theres a different incident.

Greta Berlin and now Kristyan Benedict seem to be just the tip of the iceberg.

free Gaza Movement , Amnesty International , I shudder to think whats next?

ISM or UNHRC could be filled with antisemies too for all we know?

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Response to King_David (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:12 PM

14. everyday? actually more than a month apart and unrelated

but have it your I'm sure it justifies something for you

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:16 PM

17. The point is ...

 

... they are NOT unrelated. They are part of a larger ideology behind these movement that -- for now anyway -- they aren't ready for the rest of the world to see.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:24 PM

20. hmmm it seems you are claiming that while it is antisemtic to be antiIsrael's occupation

of Judea and Samara it not Islamiphobic or antiArab to be in favor of that? that one side is very morally superior to the other?

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:42 PM

26. okay I'll agree that antisemitism is as much a part of the ProPalestinian movement

as Islamiphobia is a part of the ProIsrael movement because after all Pam Geller and Robert Spence are both adamantly ProIsrael and represent the sentiments of the ProIsrael movement as a whole every bit as much as the likes of Greta Berlin and the woman from Amnesty do the ProPalestinian as a whole

which is a minority of both movements

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 04:28 PM

74. They aren't part of a larger ideology.

They are simply the crazies that always get attracted to something.

This is about getting Amnesty to back off on reporting what the Israeli government does to Palestinians...and getting Amnesty to give that government special dispensation and special deference.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 06:27 PM

79. So many crazies in these organizations?

Looks like its much more endemic than we ever thought .

Agreed ?

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Response to King_David (Reply #79)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 08:33 PM

80. No...it looks like you're just trying to create paranoia.

Amnesty has never been antisemitic, and it has nothing in common with the Free Gaza Movement or the others. Amnesty's sole agenda is standing for human rights.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #80)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:25 PM

82. I know that's what we all believed

But read the OP .. I think they full of these bigots.. Shocking to all of us .

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Response to King_David (Reply #79)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:02 PM

81. so bigotry and general craziness is "endemic" to Amnesty International?

interesting indeed

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:16 PM

18. I know,

It is shocking.

I feel relieved that last year I was going to donate to Amnesty International but settled on The Jerusalem open house (Gay org) and Shurat Hadin and PizzaIDF.org instead....Phew was a close call,I would feel terrible had I donated to this suspect org.

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Response to King_David (Reply #18)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:22 PM

19. I am sure you would feel terrible if you donated to AI or HRW and some others I've seen listed too n

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Response to King_David (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:38 PM

25. You're damned right. Amnesty is infested with anti-Semites....

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Response to shira (Reply #25)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:43 PM

27. Thanks from 2 year ago but is he still with AI? n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:26 PM

34. Amnesty International, MEMO and the Palestinian writer who calls Jews 'kikes'

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100087135/amnesty-international-memo-and-the-palestinian-writer-who-calls-jews-kikes/

Two weeks ago, I pointed out how Amnesty International was due on 23 May to give over its Human Rights Action Centre in London to a discussion of Zionist control of the media co-hosted by Middle East Monitor Online (MEMO), a Hamas-friendly publisher of anti-Semites. I knew then that I’d draw a colourful response. I had no idea just how colorful.

In the course of making my case for MEMO’s lack of credibility, I cited one of its regular contributors, Khalid Amaryeh, who for good measure has got the front-page story in Monday’s edition on Israel’s “mendacious” prime minister. In the past, Amaryeh had written in MEMO that Israelis were “pathological liars from Eastern Europe”.

Amaryeh was quite upset at me for quoting his words back to him and denounced me as a “Zionist propagandist” and so on. Par for the course. But then he grew less pleasant and slightly more uncorked in the comment thread of a blog run by Richard Millett, who raised the same questions I did about Amnesty’s lapsed standards for invited guests....

...Amaryeh later “apologised” for the “Kike thing” (such are his ethical standards) but insisted that in matters of Zionist appeasement, he remains unbowed.

Amnesty was also made uncomfortable by my intervention. A spokesperson told the Jewish Chronicle shortly after my piece appeared: “Providing space for an event does not mean that we necessarily agree with all of the views of participants. The key point is that free debate takes place.”

Quite. I eagerly await Amnesty’s Human Rights Action Centre being turned over to the BNP for a debate on how changing demographics in England are depleting national pride.

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Response to shira (Reply #34)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:38 PM

37. well thank you for your condemnation of Amnesty International

no matter how convoluted it is i think that your opinions about human rights organizations speak volumes and should be seen by all here don't you?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #37)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 05:53 AM

60. Amnesty pretends Hamas isn't committing war crimes against its own people

Last edited Thu Nov 22, 2012, 07:11 AM - Edit history (1)

That makes them apologists for and tacit supporters of Hamas' strategy to use Gaza as one big human shield.

Don't take my word for it. Here's B'tselem from Nov 15, 2012:

Hamas combatants, as well as other armed Palestinian groups operating against Israel, fire at civilian targets within Israel from within Palestinian civilian areas and do not distinguish themselves from the civilian populations. This conduct is a severe violation of International Humanitarian Law and as such, it constitutes a war crime.

http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20121115_gaza_operation

Shame on Amnesty International.


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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:28 PM

21. Thanks for posting,

I am sure you agree it is important we know the people makeup of such organizations.

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Response to King_David (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:30 PM

22. I'm guessing ...

 

... that wasn't his intention.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:36 PM

23. Maybe , but it was the result . nt

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:11 PM

33. no I thought it was important that AI took action on this

but anything else is well pretty much what I expected thank you

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Response to King_David (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:37 PM

24. so in your opinion that the organiztion took action against her is meaningless

if one is guilty they all are?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #24)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:44 PM

28. I am saddened that the core is way too rotten

This action they took is too little too late.

Same as Free Gaza Movement .

Credibility is now shot.

I mourn for the loss of this altruistic organizations spiral and assumption of the antisemitic mantle .

They got some major spring cleaning to do.

Rotten to the core ..

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Response to King_David (Reply #28)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:53 PM

29. ah so you feel that because one member is guilty they all are ? n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #29)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:59 PM

30. As Shira pointed out,

There is a track record .

Also with recent Greta Berlin , Free Gaza Movement , ISM, UNHRC etc etc etc

I think this problem is much much bigger than any of us ever imagined.

I used to give them the benefit of the doubt but I'm beginning to think there is a far wider hatred of Jews than any of us fathomed.. I'm shocked and floored at this revelation .

( Beth Tselem Excepted )

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Response to King_David (Reply #30)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:02 PM

31. B'Tselem excepted really I've seem them called antisemtic here too

however AI and Free Gaza are not even remotely related you do realize that Israel is a relatively small part of what AI covers or does that not matter?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #31)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:27 PM

45. These groups are absolutely obsessed with Israel and apparrently the Jews too

nt

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Response to King_David (Reply #45)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:33 PM

46. Amnesty is obsessed with Israel? okay

here is their homepage Palestinians are mentioned but the main thrust of the page is about Mozambique and Bahrain

http://www.amnesty.org/

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #46)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:02 PM

47. Check out the UNHRC resolutions

Add them up by israel as a % of world countries ...

Now stories like this shed light on motivation .. Remember the Free Gaza Movement ? Greta Berlin is not a "lonely " person ...

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Response to King_David (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:05 PM

32. I thought is important that AI took action against one of its members for their actions

but apparently that part is lost or has no meaning for some ?

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:31 PM

35. It took a lot of courage for you to post this

And from the Jerusalem Post no less!

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Response to oberliner (Reply #35)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:37 PM

36. Ditto. n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #36)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:43 PM

39. I am curious how did this get past you ? you are usually quick to report and

condemn human rights organizations

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #39)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 06:29 AM

62. I'm not omniscient. n/t

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Response to oberliner (Reply #35)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:41 PM

38. why ever would you say that ? an employee of AI made an antisemtic tweet and AI is taking action

against that person why did reporting that take courage?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #38)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:54 PM

41. An antisemitic tweet?

What was antisemitic about the tweet?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #41)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 08:59 PM

42. That's what this entire thread is about and your just now asking?

well a tweet was posted by an AI member that mentioned some Jewish members of the British parliamen in a manner that was considered antisemitic because it alluded to them being in league with Israel or that was my take .

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #42)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:03 PM

43. I've read the tweet and don't find it antisemitic

You ought to be allowed to insult politicians you don't agree with regardless of their religion or ethnicity.

Nothing about anybody's Jewishness was mentioned at all.

You found the tweet to be antisemitic?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #43)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 09:25 PM

44. well I guess that;s your opinion but Amnesty and I found that tweet offensive because

only Jewish members of Parliament were named

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #44)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:09 PM

48. Offensive is not the same as antisemitic

I do find it offensive.

But I would like to know if you find it antisemitic - and if you do, what makes it so?

Just the fact that the three MPs named were Jewish? Or something else?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #48)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:14 PM

49. I don't quite get what your after here?

but the comment speaks for itself it alluded to three Jewish members of Parliament ordering B-52's to Gaza in support of Israel because they are Jews , and what are the differences between offensive and antisemitism if it was directed at Jews because they are Jews as this was?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #49)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:00 PM

50. I think you are reading things into the comment that aren't there

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:45 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't see anything antisemitic. The Jewishness of the MP's was not mentioned. Is it not possible that it did not even occur to the person making the comment that the three MP's named were Jewish? If one wants to criticize three Congress members for being too pro-Israel, are they required to make sure to include one who isn't Jewish? That's ridiculous.

It's offensive because of the "B-52's to Gaza" nonsense - as if supporting Israel means wanting to bomb Gaza indiscriminately.

Let me ask you this: if the person made the same tweet but switched out one of the Jewish MPs for a non-Jewish one then would it have been fine?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #50)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:51 PM

51. I was going to add something about that in my previous comment

no if the person had not singled out Jewish MP's then no the tweet would not have been antisemitic, but as it stands it was IMO and it should be noted that among ProPalestinian posters here on DU there is self policing, and for groups like AI they have to be, you've seen the other comments here

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Response to azurnoir (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:26 AM

53. Good. This proves Amnesty is "on the case" on this issue. n/t.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #53)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 06:08 AM

61. What do you think about Amnesty sanitizing Hamas war crimes....

...against their own population?

B'tselem:

Hamas combatants, as well as other armed Palestinian groups operating against Israel, fire at civilian targets within Israel from within Palestinian civilian areas and do not distinguish themselves from the civilian populations. This conduct is a severe violation of International Humanitarian Law and as such, it constitutes a war crime.
http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20121115_gaza_operation


Amnesty, to this date, has found no evidence of the above.

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Response to shira (Reply #61)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 11:06 AM

63. it was a quote of IDF findings not B'tselems which is why only a fraction of a paragraph is snipped


Almost four year ago, between 27.12.08 and 18.01.09, the Israeli military carried out Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip. This operation caused unprecedented damage to the civilian population: over 700 civilians who did not take part in the fighting were killed – including entire families and over 300 minor. Thousands of civilians were injured and tens of thousands were left homeless. Investigations into this operation raised grave suspicions that Israeli forces committed war crimes. Israeli officials rejected all demands to investigate the conduct of the political and military echelon responsible for the operation. The military on its part only investigated individual incidents, and these investigations did not meet the standards of an independent and thorough investigation geared at uncovering the truth. Hamas combatants, as well as other armed Palestinian groups operating against Israel, fire at civilian targets within Israel from within Palestinian civilian areas and do not distinguish themselves from the civilian populations. This conduct is a severe violation of International Humanitarian Law and as such, it constitutes a war crime.

As was the case four years ago, Israeli officials are now using the conduct of Palestinian organizations to justify harm to Palestinian civilians. The military has committed itself to doing its utmost to minimize harm to civilians. However it also emphasized that it is not responsible for harm inflicted to civilians.

However, this position is fundamentally flawed. The fact that Hamas combatants and other organizations operate contrary to the law does not automatically justify Israeli actions that harm civilians. The fact that one side violates the law does not give the other side the right to violate it as well. Israel is still bound by the duty – legal and moral – to use all the means at its disposal to minimize as much as possible harm to civilians, despite Hamas' illegal conduct.

During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli military ignored this principle. B'Tselem cautions against the possibility that it will ignore it in the current operation as well, in order to justify harm to the civilian population. Therefore, and based on the lessons of the previous operation, B'Tselem wishes to emphasize some basic rules by which the military must operate, in keeping with commitments undertaken by the State of Israel


http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20121115_gaza_operation

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #63)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 02:19 PM

65. No it's not. It's B'tselem admitting what Hamas does...

And now you're ignoring/denying Hamas' warcrimes against their own people.



In addition, you also can't come to grips with the IDF's record regarding civilians in combat. Not only best in the world but in the history of all warfare.

But here you are demonizing Israel as if they're worse than Hamas.

Why?

This is what allows Hamas to continue on with their policy of victimizing their own people (human shields). Folks like yourself are only ensuring more Palestinians die.

More from Btselem's Jessica Montell:

The legal determination regarding Israel's behavior in Gaza depends also on an analysis of Hamas' behavior, and there are well-founded concerns that Hamas also violated the laws of war. This includes not only the deliberate firing of rockets at Israeli communities, which is clearly a grave breach of IHL, but also Hamas' conduct in the fighting inside Gaza: the hiding of weapons in mosques and other civilian areas and the extrajudicial executions of those suspected of aiding Israel.

http://www.bitterlemons.org/previous/bl230209ed8.html#isr2

Amnesty denies that too; thereby giving a green light and tacit support of Hamas' heinous war crimes.

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Response to shira (Reply #65)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 02:45 PM

66. well thankfully people can read whih is why I posted the whole thing n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #66)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 02:49 PM

67. You must've missed this part...

However, this position is fundamentally flawed. The fact that Hamas combatants and other organizations operate contrary to the law does not automatically justify Israeli actions that harm civilians.


B'tselem admits it's a fact Hamas and other terror organizations operate contrary to law (human shields mentioned in the above paragraph). That fact, Hamas' conduct, doesn't allow Israel to do whatever they want.

You're defending Hamas' ghoulish victimization of Palestinians, you know that?

Here's the context:

Hamas combatants, as well as other armed Palestinian groups operating against Israel, fire at civilian targets within Israel from within Palestinian civilian areas and do not distinguish themselves from the civilian populations. This conduct is a severe violation of International Humanitarian Law and as such, it constitutes a war crime.

As was the case four years ago, Israeli officials are now using the conduct of Palestinian organizations to justify harm to Palestinian civilians. The military has committed itself to doing its utmost to minimize harm to civilians. However it also emphasized that it is not responsible for harm inflicted to civilians.

However, this position is fundamentally flawed. The fact that Hamas combatants and other organizations operate contrary to the law does not automatically justify Israeli actions that harm civilians. The fact that one side violates the law does not give the other side the right to violate it as well. Israel is still bound by the duty – legal and moral – to use all the means at its disposal to minimize as much as possible harm to civilians, despite Hamas' illegal conduct.


Couldn't be more clear.

So here's the summary:

1. Btselem admits Hamas fires from civilian areas
2. They admit Hamas doesn't distinguish themselves from the civilian population
3. Jessica Montel admitted they hide weapons among civilians and in mosques

All war crimes.

Amnesty denies them all.

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Response to shira (Reply #67)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:11 PM

69. so you edit what I posted and claim I missed it

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #69)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:15 PM

70. Keep deflecting. B'tselem stated as fact Hamas commits war crimes via human shielding.

Amnesty denies it.

And here you are denying the obvious as well. You do it in order to focus exclusively on Israel.

Shameful.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #66)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:05 PM

68. Isamic Jihad boasting about human shielding...

The residents of the Gaza Strip were surprised with the rockets of the resistance being fired from the heart of the cities of the Gaza Strip, without seeing how the launchers were put up, or their place, in order for deception to prevent exposure to the Israeli intelligence planes of the place of the firing of the rockets...

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-33008.html&hl=en&langpair=auto%7Cen&tbb=1&ie=windows-1256

More war crimes Amnesty and the "peace activists" choose to ignore; thereby giving tacit support to this vile strategy.

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Response to shira (Reply #68)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:22 PM

71. that is not in the article anyone who's ever read a Google translation from Arabic to English

would spot it here is as close as it gets to what you posted

Pat surprised Gazans launching rockets of the resistance from the heart of the cities of the sector without see how monument platforms or place platforms, in an attempt to disguise the lack of discovery Israeli reconnaissance planes to place the rocket fire.


here is the definition of human shield

human shield
n.
1. A person who volunteers or is forced to take up a position at a likely military target as a means of forestalling an enemy attack.
2. A person who is used as a shield by someone in a confrontation with the police in order to prevent capture.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Human+shields

you see this definition does not include people who just happen to be there, in order to be of any actual value as a human shield the presence of civilians has to prevent attack in the case of IDF it very clearly does not, the altered use of human shield is nothing more than an excuse to explain away civilian casualties

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #71)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:44 PM

72. B'tselem stated that not distinguishing themselves from civilians is a war crime

That's exactly what Islamic Jihad is boasting about.

Here's the google translation:

There is no public resistance fighters in the streets of the sector .. Transportation known no longer appear, even light weapons is no longer sees people in Gaza .. Complete disappearance of the concrete while do resist .. Anti-aircraft firing on the planes without knowing their location .. Rockets are fired from the heart of the sector does not seen Mtalegoha or know the whereabouts installed only after all.

New tactic began to follow it with the resistance factions start of the Israeli war on Gaza in the twenty-seventh of the past month, to avoid any Israeli target for men.

According to monitoring our correspondents the streets of Gaza has become free from the presence of the Palestinian resistance and men went into hiding, disappeared transportation known to Palestinian resistance men from the streets of the Gaza Strip.
According to medical sources, the number of martyrs and wounded of the Palestinian resistance elements few compared to the number of civilian martyrs who have fallen since the start of the Israeli war on Gaza, with the exception of the large number of Palestinian policemen who were killed on the first day of the war on Gaza.

Pat surprised Gazans launching rockets of the resistance from the heart of the cities of the sector without see how monument platforms or place platforms, in an attempt to disguise the lack of discovery Israeli reconnaissance planes to place the rocket fire.
The rocket reached strategic cities in "Israel" such as the city of Ashdod and Beersheba which Tbaadan more than 45 kilometers from the Gaza Strip, while Israeli television reported that the rocket reached over 60 Clio meters from the Gaza Strip.
The mayor "Tel Aviv" which serves as the political capital of Israel announced the start of processing city shelters, fearing the arrival of the city's Palestinian rockets.

Abu Mohammed - one of the field commanders in the Al-Quds Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine -, said: "The overwhelmingly Saraya is a style" concealment hat "to mislead the aircraft occupation and its agents."
He stressed that Israeli warplanes can not bombed any platform for rockets since the start of the war on Gaza, or anywhere importance of the resistance can be any affect to do it on the ground
.

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Response to shira (Reply #72)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 04:40 PM

75. shira that is not the Google translation and B'tselem is being quite loosley reinterpreted

my snip was from the Google translation but continue on if you wish maybe someone will just take your word for it

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #53)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 01:08 PM

64. Take a lot more than this to cleanse their organization

of bigotry and antisemitism

This dude is just the tip of the iceberg.

As Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement proved this is a much bigger problem in a lot of these organizations than anyone ever thought. The bigots seem to be attracted to these types of movements and are now coming out the woodwork. But I am floored at the sheer number and it explains a lot.

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Response to King_David (Reply #64)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 04:26 PM

73. No you are not floored.

You're acting like Joe McCarthy here.

There are a tiny handful of bigots, and they get found out and driven out quickly.

And Greta Berlin wasn't in Amnesty, so it was inappropriate to drag her name into this debate.

You're just mad at Amnesty because it doesn't give Israel special dispensation.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #73)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 08:17 PM

76. Not true ,

I always supported Amnesty International, but it was like an 'Et tu, Brute' type moment.

I was floored that this organization too was filled with antisemites like the UNHRC and the Free Gaza Movement and many others it seems.

I am absolutely flabbergasted and disappointed that this problem seems to run far deeper than anyone actually suspected.

I do not think it is possible to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Too bad the rot runs so deep.

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