HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Foreign Affairs & National Security » Israel/Palestine (Group) » Press Doesn't put 2 + 2 t...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:33 PM

Press Doesn't put 2 + 2 together in Analysis of Most Recent Israel - Palestinian Conflict

Last edited Mon Nov 26, 2012, 12:03 AM - Edit history (1)

Time Line based on (The Story has been updated here. )

Palestinian Authority President says that he will seek elevated UN status from observer entity to nonmember state at the United Nations on November 29th which could allow the Palestinian Authority to join the International Criminal Court, which has previously rejected their complaints against Israel because they are an observer entity.

In the past, the Palestinian Authority has attempted to become a full member state but this action was blocked by the Obama administration. A vote for non-member status doesn’t require U.N. Security Council approval.

A call from President Obama over the weekend of November 10-11th to the President of the Palestinian Authority isn’t successful in halting the bid. The U.S. and Israel issue threats of financial sanctions such as withholding tax revenues if the President of the Palestinian Authority doesn't stop and he responds by saying he doesn't need your money. Israel begins lobbying European Nations to reject the Palestinian Authority bid.

Beginning on November 10th, Hamas begins hitting Southern Israel with Rockets on a daily basis

November 14th

Israel newspapers state that Israel will topple the President of the Palestinian Authority over his attempt to obtain nonmember status

Militant Hamas leader Ahmed el-Jabar is killed in an Israeli air-strike.

Palestinians say 15 dead, 118 wounded in 20 attacks along the Gaza strip as part of what Israel refers to as operation “Pillar of Defense.”

November 15th

US press claims its all Palestinians fault

15 replies, 1344 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 15 replies Author Time Post
Reply Press Doesn't put 2 + 2 together in Analysis of Most Recent Israel - Palestinian Conflict (Original post)
toddmiller Nov 2012 OP
polly7 Nov 2012 #1
toddmiller Nov 2012 #2
polly7 Nov 2012 #12
preventivePhD Nov 2012 #15
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #3
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #4
Mosby Nov 2012 #5
Igel Nov 2012 #7
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #10
Igel Nov 2012 #6
toddmiller Nov 2012 #8
oberliner Nov 2012 #9
Mosby Nov 2012 #11
polly7 Nov 2012 #13
toddmiller Nov 2012 #14

Response to toddmiller (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 04:50 PM

1. Help me out like I'm a 10 y/o please,

why the opposition by Israel and the U.S. to the Palestinian Authority gaining member status?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to polly7 (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 05:17 PM

2. Opposition

Traditional view would be that Israel only has the support of a few countries. If the Palestinian Authority has the right to pursue legal grievances against Israel, they would have a good chance of winning their lawsuit. For example, the International Court could stop Israel's blockade of Gaza. Israel blockades Gaza to prevent weapons from getting into Gaza. Gaza could use those weapons to build rockets and bombs that are sent to Israel.

The International community, however, believes Gaza has a right to trade with other countries and Israel is interfering with Gaza's economy.

For more, click on the link.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to toddmiller (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 10:41 AM

12. Thank you for the information!

I've seen resolution after resolution vetoed or not acted on over the years against the Israeli Govt's acts towards Palestinians ... they deserve the same rights and protections as any other people in the world. It seems incredibly arrogant and brazen, to me, to just go on year after year with nothing changing, while they suffer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to polly7 (Reply #12)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:24 PM

15. I agree

Looks like maybe they will get some rights in just three days. Israel isn't bound by the criminal courts decisions, however. Not sure it will mean more than just more bad publicity for US & Israel.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to polly7 (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 05:22 PM

3. There's no "soft" way to put it...

Israel and the US both insist that statehood for the Palestinians should be negotiated through direct talks with Israel.

Israel has a much stronger bargaining position, so much that it can treat just showing up as a concession that needs ot be met with an offer.

This disparity in bargaining basically turns "negotiations" into "demands."

If Palestine wins UN member status, however (and it is 100% completely in its right to do so without asking anyone's permission) their bargaining position is significantly elevated; they cease to be what effectively amounts to "unclaimed territory" in the eyes of the United Nations and its member states, and can call up their own bit of diplomatic pressure.

Bluntly? Israel opposes Palestinian statehood because it would cut into Israel's territorial and resource interests in the west bank and its resource interests in the Mediterranean. Land, water, natural gas, etc.

The US opposes Palestinian statehood because US foreign policy is completely about maintaining the status quo. We'll support a bloodthirty tyrant as readily as a liberal democracy, so long as we have some assurance that either regime will be in power for a while so we don't have to update our own notes. A Palestinian state would alter the status quo, and that's just unacceptable from a US foreign policy position.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:39 PM

4. Israel's leaders wants to cut a Palestinian state down to nothing,

They want the major settlement blocs left in place, they want ALL of Jerusalem(those two demands would essentially make a contiguous West Bank state impossible, and non-contiguous states are always doomed to collapse)...they want NO RoR(even a small symbolic RoR for the elders of '48, which decent people of all faiths and cultures recognize is necessary for any reconciliation to happen),

And after all Israel's sanctimony about the right to self-defense, they want to deny that same right to an independent Palestine(thus making it not a real country at all). Without that right, Palestine's sovereignty can be revoked any time the Israeli government wants it to...thus making that sovereignty meaningless. It's not enough for those leaders that Palestinians agree to peace...they want them to agree to helplessness as well.

With Israel's coalition political system, it is quite plausible that a West Bank revanchist party could win enough seats in a future Knesset election that it could demand that anyone wishing to go into government agree to re-invade the West Bank and Gaza and re-establish the Occupation, with a view this time to achieving what the Israeli Right has always demanded...the annexation of "Judea and Samaria", and the creation of an essentially Arabrein Israel.

Peace means treating BOTH partners with respect and treating both partners as if they can be expected to behave honorably. Insisting that Palestine have NO right to self-defense is based on the bigoted assumption that NO Palestinian state, no matter what its leadership is composed of, no matter how much time has passed, no matter HOW many years of peace, can ever be trusted to behave as a civilized nation.

Israel should be happy with a non-aggression treaty. Insisting on an agreement in which Israel has the right to self-defense but Palestine doesn't means insisting that Palestine achieve independence by accepting a humiliating insult...the notion that Israel can be trusted with security against invasion, but Palestine can't. There is no Palestinian leader that could ever accept those terms, and Israel knows it. Therefore, in insisting on that, the Israeli government is insisting that any Palestinian leadership it agrees to negotiate with agree to effectively commit suicide...thus making any agreement meaningless when that leadership is overthrown.

What good comes from ANY of that?

War must end...and it can only end when neither side is humiliated in the process.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 06:51 PM

5. the US does not oppose Palestinian statehood

Where did you get that idea? What was Pres Clinton et al trying to do, if not actualizing the two state solution?

I think you are partly right about the US maintaining the status quo, Bahrain comes to mind. But US foreign policy has to be a balancing act between realism and idealism. First and foremost the US has to look out for its interests, supporting the shia of Bahrain is the right thing to do but it would destabalize the gulf and could lead to much higher gas prices which would hurt average Americans.

I don't get this idea that negotiating has to be between equals or its not fair, in this case why should Israel be punished so to speak because of their success?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Mosby (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:22 PM

7. It can't be unconditionally in favor of it.

Otherwise we'd have recognized the PA as the once-elected government of the Palestinian state already.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Mosby (Reply #5)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:56 AM

10. Mostly I get it from our directly-stated opposition to the Palestinian's UN bid

How about this; the US opposes any Palestinian state that is not created according to the terms set by Israel. Same idea, but a little more accurate in wording.

And yes, I know that Americans will not hesitate to watch any number of Arabs die in order to save a couple cents at the pump. I don't believe that this is something to shrug over, however.

As for negotiations... Are you at all interested in a lasting peace between Israel and Palestine, Mosby? I assume you are, so allow me to explain to you... there will be no peace without an equitable resolution. Such a resolution will not be garnered by a powerful negotiator demanding terms of a weaker "partner." That may buy a few quiet years, but the chafing will lead to more unrest, more violence, and a renewal of the problems we've been looking at all this time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 07:21 PM

6. It would also establish modern precedent for a territory-less state.

Rather a novel idea, but one that we saw in the formal recognition of governments in exile by sme nations in the past. And something close to what some want in the case of Syria.

At the same time, though, it also imposes a burden on a lot of countries. If the UN recognizes, on the basis of UN representatives' votes, the PA as a state, then there's pressure on the other governments to do the same. It's not required to recognize a state, of course, but since we seem to be of the idea that a government's right to rule these days is based more in worldwide opinion than in jurisdiction or popular vote, it's hard to argue against it except on the most extreme of ideological or moralistic grounds.

And given a world in which attacking those firing mortars at you is bad but blowing up a bus in the name of freedom is good, the meaning of "extreme ideological" and "moralistic" strikes me as rather untethered.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:25 PM

8. The other major point is the war propaganda

The Impartial Review News reported the above story but where is the rest of the media? Regardless of whether you like Glenn Greenwald or Glenn Beck, they're not going to mention it and you're going to create a lot of confusion among people who believe US citizens are told the truth about things.

The best way to understand what causes the US government to misreport what going on to its citizens and why the news media is frequently a willing accomplice is to watch an award-winning documentary. Here's a list of ten as well as some books.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to toddmiller (Reply #8)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 11:06 PM

9. Do you own stock in that website?

Seriously, what's your connection?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to Scootaloo (Reply #3)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 10:42 AM

13. Thank you very much Scootaloo! nt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to toddmiller (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:29 AM

14. Update

Also note I updated the article because I found a link where Israeli newspapers and the finance minister admitted that the Rockets were not as big a concern as the Palestinian Authority's bid for United Nations Status on November 29th. Also, the President of Israel supports the bid Nobel Peace Prize Winner Shimon Peres. Thus, it will be interesting to see what happens in three days.

Finally, about 40 minutes ago Hamas backed the UN bid. This could be a real blow to the US & Israel agenda.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread