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Tue Nov 6, 2012, 06:16 PM

Latest Pallywood Strategy

http://www.thejc.com/blogs/jonathan-hoffman/latest-pallywood-strategy

The Palestinians select and dress their children to look like regular blond European and American girls. They then have them taunt IDF soldiers, aiming to provoke a reaction which will then be filmed and broadcast across the globe - with Ha'aretz and The Guardian in the lead of course.

Look carefully how one girl antagonises a soldier, and see how photographers wait for the 'perfect shot' to relay around the globe as yet another piece of anti-Israel news reporting.

This will then be portrayed as a spontaneous brutal attack by an armed and uniformed Israeli soldier against an innocent Palestinian girl.

This is film that you will never see on your mainstream TV news -- but it happens on a regular basis.


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Arrow 161 replies Author Time Post
Reply Latest Pallywood Strategy (Original post)
shira Nov 2012 OP
shira Nov 2012 #1
azurnoir Nov 2012 #2
henank Nov 2012 #3
azurnoir Nov 2012 #4
Shaktimaan Nov 2012 #6
azurnoir Nov 2012 #7
King_David Nov 2012 #15
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #23
King_David Nov 2012 #24
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #25
oberliner Nov 2012 #28
azurnoir Nov 2012 #29
oberliner Nov 2012 #31
azurnoir Nov 2012 #33
oberliner Nov 2012 #37
King_David Nov 2012 #32
azurnoir Nov 2012 #34
King_David Nov 2012 #35
oberliner Nov 2012 #38
King_David Nov 2012 #40
oberliner Nov 2012 #41
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #36
oberliner Nov 2012 #39
azurnoir Nov 2012 #50
oberliner Nov 2012 #60
azurnoir Nov 2012 #65
oberliner Nov 2012 #67
shira Nov 2012 #57
azurnoir Nov 2012 #64
Shaktimaan Nov 2012 #93
shaayecanaan Nov 2012 #56
shira Nov 2012 #68
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #71
shira Nov 2012 #73
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #75
shira Nov 2012 #76
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #78
shira Nov 2012 #80
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #82
shira Nov 2012 #85
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #86
shira Nov 2012 #91
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #92
shira Nov 2012 #95
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #97
shira Nov 2012 #102
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #103
shira Nov 2012 #106
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #108
shira Nov 2012 #114
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #117
shira Nov 2012 #118
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #121
shira Nov 2012 #127
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #129
shira Nov 2012 #132
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #136
shira Nov 2012 #148
aranthus Nov 2012 #133
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #139
aranthus Nov 2012 #140
shira Nov 2012 #77
morningfog Nov 2012 #155
shira Nov 2012 #5
azurnoir Nov 2012 #8
shira Nov 2012 #27
azurnoir Nov 2012 #30
shira Nov 2012 #42
azurnoir Nov 2012 #46
shira Nov 2012 #47
azurnoir Nov 2012 #51
shira Nov 2012 #53
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #89
shira Nov 2012 #96
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #98
shira Nov 2012 #100
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #101
shira Nov 2012 #104
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #107
shira Nov 2012 #109
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #112
shira Nov 2012 #115
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #119
shira Nov 2012 #120
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #122
shira Nov 2012 #125
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #126
shira Nov 2012 #128
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #130
shira Nov 2012 #131
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #138
shira Nov 2012 #147
morningfog Nov 2012 #156
King_David Nov 2012 #10
azurnoir Nov 2012 #12
King_David Nov 2012 #17
azurnoir Nov 2012 #26
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #69
shira Nov 2012 #70
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #72
shira Nov 2012 #74
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #79
shira Nov 2012 #81
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #84
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #83
shira Nov 2012 #87
Scootaloo Nov 2012 #90
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #88
shira Nov 2012 #149
Mosby Nov 2012 #9
shira Nov 2012 #11
Mosby Nov 2012 #13
shira Nov 2012 #16
shira Nov 2012 #14
King_David Nov 2012 #18
shira Nov 2012 #20
shira Nov 2012 #19
King_David Nov 2012 #21
shira Nov 2012 #22
shira Nov 2012 #43
azurnoir Nov 2012 #44
shira Nov 2012 #48
azurnoir Nov 2012 #49
shaayecanaan Nov 2012 #54
shira Nov 2012 #55
shaayecanaan Nov 2012 #58
shira Nov 2012 #59
shaayecanaan Nov 2012 #62
shira Nov 2012 #63
shaayecanaan Nov 2012 #94
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #99
shira Nov 2012 #105
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #110
shira Nov 2012 #111
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #113
shira Nov 2012 #116
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #123
shira Nov 2012 #134
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #137
azurnoir Nov 2012 #45
shira Nov 2012 #52
azurnoir Nov 2012 #61
shira Nov 2012 #66
Progressive dog Nov 2012 #124
shira Nov 2012 #135
azurnoir Nov 2012 #144
shira Nov 2012 #150
aranthus Nov 2012 #141
shira Nov 2012 #146
pelsar Nov 2012 #142
azurnoir Nov 2012 #143
pelsar Nov 2012 #145
shira Nov 2012 #151
shira Nov 2012 #152
shira Nov 2012 #153
morningfog Nov 2012 #154
shira Nov 2012 #157
morningfog Nov 2012 #158
shira Nov 2012 #159
shira Jun 2013 #160
shira Sep 2013 #161

Response to shira (Original post)

Tue Nov 6, 2012, 07:38 PM

1. Notice girl is waiting for camera at beginning of video...

She starts into her act when the camera is close enough.

At 2:30, a boy is being pushed into an IDF soldier so that those with cameras can hopefully get an exclusive of an IDF brownshirt nazi SS stormtrooper in his jackboots attacking a poor defenseless child for no reason.

This type of activism is child abuse.



There's so much more that's so very wrong with a video like this, when you really think about it.

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Response to shira (Original post)

Tue Nov 6, 2012, 10:14 PM

2. ah so those 'devious' Arabs disgise their children as blonds

ya that's really obvious that little girl is wearing a wig and

maybe even makeup to make her skin look lighter

even bet on a close up we'd see blue contacts in her eyes


or



maybe just maybe





someones quite full of 'it', but has failed to burp






take your choice I've made mine who's feelin' gassy, not me



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Response to azurnoir (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:11 AM

3. Her colour is irrelevant

What is really relevant and really salient in this video is how a bunch of little children are manipulated or pushed by their parents and a bunch of photographers towards a crowd of armed soldiers, where they stand right up close and in their face and proceed to scream - I don't know what, I don't speak Arabic, but I assume they are not admiring their pretty uniforms. One of the children even makes a lunge for a soldier's gun. Now you show me any other army where soldiers manning a checkpoint or border in hostile territory will not only allow civilians and photographers so up close and personal, but would do so with such forbearance, even smiling and laughing.

I dare you to send your children to a US Army checkpoint say on the Mexican or Canadian border, not to mention hostile territory like Iraq or Pakistan which would be more equivalent to the situation in the video, and see what would happen to the children, the parents and the press photographers. At the very least you would see mass arrests. You would also be likely to see lots of shooting and dead bodies.

The video proves that the IDF are not the monsters they are typically made out to be. The children are manipulated precisely BECAUSE the parents know they will come home safely.

But if you can't see that you need glasses and possibly a new insight test.

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Response to henank (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:24 AM

4. or perhaps they listen to what Lieutenant Colonel Shaul Eisner

who regrets slamming his rifle into a Danish activists face - in front of a camera

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 02:45 PM

6. yeah...

everyone looks terrified that their children will be hurt in that video shown above.

Proof that this is what Palestinians do: Send their children out to try and antagonize soldiers into touching them in any way. They would sacrifice their children's lives for some decent footage embarrassing the IDF. What a truly sick, diseased society.

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Response to Shaktimaan (Reply #6)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:10 PM

7. you mad bro"

or are ya feeling frustrated today for some reason?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:01 PM

15. His post is a bulls eye

Last edited Wed Nov 7, 2012, 11:58 PM - Edit history (1)

'They would sacrifice their children's lives for some decent footage embarrassing the IDF'

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Response to King_David (Reply #15)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 11:21 PM

23. The only bullseye was for the bigoted comment in that post

Why would anyone at DU say something as nasty and bigoted as that, let alone come along and agree with it being said? That was ugly and bigoted and should be no more acceptable here than if it had been said about Israeli society.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #23)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 11:47 PM

24. HUH ?

I think your wrong, but try adress it to the dude who wrote the post, Shaktimaan.

I do not want to be drawn into that hostile game.

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Response to King_David (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 01:25 AM

25. You agreed with the bigotry in their post.

You said: 'His post is a bulls eye '..

It's really sad that anyone would think that calling Palestinian society sick and diseased isn't bigotry. The reason it's bigotry is because it's a broadbrush generalisation of another people. It's bigoted for people to say things like that about Israeli society, and it's every bit as bigoted for it to be said about Palestinian society. I don't see how anyone could see it as bigotry in one case and not the other...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #25)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 05:06 AM

28. There is none

The post did not call "Palestinian society sick and diseased".

Palestinians who do this with children are sick and diseased.

Just like Israelis who throw rocks at little girls on their way to school are sick and diseased.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #28)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:52 AM

29. Here is the post yes it does seem to be all Palestinians not Palestinians who do this or that

Proof that this is what Palestinians do: Send their children out to try and antagonize soldiers into touching them in any way. They would sacrifice their children's lives for some decent footage embarrassing the IDF. What a truly sick, diseased society.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #29)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:01 AM

31. Wrong post

I thought it was in reference to this comment:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20509

My bad.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #31)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:13 AM

33. nothing in any of your comments indicated that and in fact you quoted from the comment

I reposted for you but if you say so ...........

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #33)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:11 AM

37. I quoted from the person who gave the response

I thought that person was critiquing a different post that didn't say the things they said they were saying. It was a mix-up.

I don't think Palestinian or Israeli society is sick and I strongly disagree with anyone who says either is.

I do, however, think that the abuse of children by people in any society is sick - and those who do it should be ashamed of themselves. And it's too frequent in every society.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #25)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:06 AM

32. Again I'm telling you ,

Please adress the poster who posted it instead of following myself around .

( it's creepy )

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Response to King_David (Reply #32)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:15 AM

34. 'scuse me but that poster has not been back, and you answered my reply to him

which VC replied too, so it could hardly be called an exclusive conversation or following anyone around

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #34)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:21 AM

35. Yes but there's other posts too

I'm beginning to get paranoid about it.

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Response to King_David (Reply #35)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:13 AM

38. Maybe you should put certain posters on ignore

Might make for a more agreeable experience.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #38)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 11:33 AM

40. Yes thanks for that,

I'm considering that .

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Response to King_David (Reply #40)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 02:47 PM

41. Transforms the entire DU experience

Might not be for everyone - but clearly works for some!

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Response to King_David (Reply #32)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:30 AM

36. I'm not following you around...

This is a small group, and yr no different to anyone else, in that people who disagree with what you say are going to reply to you. There's nothing creepy at all about picking you up on agreeing with a bigoted post. Though if you think otherwise, yr free to stick me on ignore. But complaining that yr being bullied and stalked when that's definitely not happening is imo disruptive. What's really weird is only a day or so ago, you were appearing in threads and replying to my posts. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20442 Do I get to shudder and do an insincere *creepy!* about that?

Now, I'll repeat it. When someone comes along and high fives a post that contains bigotry, I'm going to take it up with the high fiver, and I'm going to ask them the obvious question about why they wouldn't think that's bigotry when aimed at Palestinians, but think it was bigotry when aimed at Israelis. Which is what you've been asked, but for some reason you don't want to answer...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #36)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 11:17 AM

39. Only one kind of bigotry seems to bother you

Greta Berlin's comments (which were posted and discussed extensively here) don't seem to warrant so much as a mild rebuke.

Seems like bigotry needs to be directed in a particular direction for you to take notice.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #39)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:49 PM

50. as long as you wish to toss that thread in to the mix

didn't you claim on that thread the only reason US Palestinians activist Ali Abunimah condemed Berlin was antiWhite bigotry and in fact went so far as to insert Jew into a title where it did not occur, in an attempt to make a point

here's a link to that thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=18727

and

btw if your wondering why I'm replying for VC she has you ignore bet ya did not know that huh?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #50)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:02 PM

60. In response to your questions

1. No, I did not claim that that was the only reason, but race was definitely clearly and explicitly a factor. In fact, there was a whole discussion about the role non-Palestinians can and should be permitted to have in "the struggle".

2. I did not insert Jew into a title where it did not occur. I pointed out that AA made (and continue to make) a point of identifying the nationality (and by extension the Jewishness) of one of these supposed sock puppeteers.

3. The poster you mentioned is definitely not ignoring me. In fact, that poster has responded to me on numerous occasions as recently as last week. I actually consider that poster to be one of my closest friends on this board as we go back quite a long time together. I get the sense that, in spite of some disagreements, the feeling is pretty mutual.

Edit to add: I think of you in a similar way.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #60)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:52 PM

65. I did not ask you any questions and it seems your calling me a bigot

care to expand on that any?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #65)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 09:20 PM

67. You asked me three questions and I was calling you a friend

Here they are:

1. Didn't you claim on that thread the only reason US Palestinians activist Ali Abunimah condemned Berlin was antiWhite bigotry?

2. Didn't you go so far as to insert Jew into a title where it did not occur, in an attempt to make a point?

3. If your wondering why I'm replying for VC she has you ignore bet ya did not know that huh?

My responses above comport with those three questions you asked in the post I responded to.

And I consider you one of my closest friends and sparring partners on this board (like VC) since we go back so far and have exchanged so many posts. I certainly don't think of you as a bigot.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #39)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:13 PM

57. Greta Berlin is just the tip of the iceberg revealing the true face...

...of the pro-Palestinian activist movement.

After all, western anti-Israel activists make up the bulk of the demonstrators at the weekly protests in Nabi Saleh.

And they actually pay Palestinian children to confront the soldiers....

'Soldiers know to avoid such traps'

A senior IDF source told Ynet that intelligence indicates that pro-Palestinian activists pay Palestinian children from Nabi Salih and the nearby villages to confront the soldiers.

The weekly protests in the areas used to involve hundreds of people, but over time the numbers have dwindled to just a few dozens. According to the officers, the majority of protesters are foreign pro-Palestinian activists.

"The soldiers are briefed on the fact that these protests are staged for the sake of provocation, so that they could be filmed acting violently and so that those videos could be distributed worldwide in an effort to harm the IDF's image," the officer explained.

"We make every effort not to fall for such traps, to exercise restraint and to use only crowd-control measures to disperse such protests."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4301487,00.html

The Greta Berlins of the world, and her ilk, are more Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves.

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Response to shira (Reply #57)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:51 PM

64. lol it just gets 'better and better' now these girls were on someones payroll? n/t

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #25)


Response to Shaktimaan (Reply #6)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:10 PM

56. Are you saying that Palestinian society is sick and diseased? (nt)

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #56)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 05:21 AM

68. Are you saying, as a parent, you would send your little children....

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 05:56 AM - Edit history (1)

...out repeatedly in harm's way, hoping an IDF officer reacts in some violent way towards your child? In order to procure a photo intended to bring about more hatred vs. Israel and the Jews?

Or is it only okay when Palestinian parents do that to their kids?

It's okay for the brown people; not so much liberals like yourself?

=======

As to sick societies, I doubt we can even agree the parents of Shirley Temper are sick. Or that Mahmoud Abbas is sick for encouraging and rewarding this behavior. Or that the western activists who have for years been involved in this 'game' are sick for encouraging it...


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Response to shira (Reply #68)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:04 AM

71. I'm curious. Do you consider it bigoted to label Palestinian society sick and diseased?

I most definitely do, and find it every bit as bigoted as saying something like that about Israeli society. I'd be curious to know whether you see it the same way...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #71)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:15 AM

73. I think we first need to agree how sick it is for parents to use their little kids...

...as political props who they deliberately put in harm's way. Hoping their child is attacked by a soldier.

If we can't agree that this is sick, why move on to how society views it?

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Response to shira (Reply #73)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 07:21 AM

75. No, all you needed to do was answer the question I asked you...

That's all I wanted. A simple answer which would have been forthcoming with no games involved if we were talking about Israeli society being labelled sick and diseased...

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine. I'll leave you to getting back to whatever it was you were doing. Clearly bigotry aimed at Palestinians is just far less important than talking about, well, just about anything else....that is unless it's Palestinian on Palestinian bigotry and then I bet there'd be a new thread that quickly grows on a steady diet of manufactured outrage into over 100 posts

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #75)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 08:56 AM

76. I think it's sick & disgusting to send yr own children out...

Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:07 PM - Edit history (1)

...as political props, daring soldiers and/or wanting soldiers to harm them.

I think it's sick for western leftists to encourage such behavior from Palestinian adults when they wouldn't do this with their own kids. Shows how they value non-western 3rd world people and their children. They don't think much of them b/c they're disgusting bigots.

I think it's sick for Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah henchmen to encourage & reward such behavior. As well as disgusting for western mainstream media reporters who know about this but never report it - and instead - report only Israeli "brutality". In effect, giving these horrible people who abuse kids a green light to continue.

I have no respect for major NGO's who say they're for human rights but turn out to be sick, twisted fucks who go along with this 'game'.

=====

And I'll go beyond Palestinian society. If a majority of the world think this is alright, whether the UN, major NGO's, academic elites, etc.... then they're all disgusting, twisted fucks and the world is still as sick and unenlightened as it was a few generations ago.

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Response to shira (Reply #76)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:27 PM

78. That's not the question I asked you. Here's the question AGAIN...

A simple yes or no will suffice. Do you think it's bigotry to label Palestinian society diseased and sick? I'm taking a very educated guess that your answer is yes, and if it is, that's a nasty, ugly, and disgustingly bigoted position to take. So if you ignore the question again and go on about something else, I will take that lack of answer as you saying that you do believe Palestinian society is sick and diseased. In which case I'll point out the breathtaking double standards of someone who'd erupt into a 100 post condemnation frenzy if someone were to say the same about Israeli society (which of course is every bit as much bigoted), while believing that very same thing about Palestinian society...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #78)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:05 PM

80. If Israeli society encouraged & rewarded this behavior, I'd say it's sick....

Whether we're talking the majority 'culture' or society, I'd have no problem condemning it as disgusting and/or sick.

I don't have a problem labeling any society that way.

I did it WRT a world not only indifferent to evil, but one that supports it.

I hope I made myself clear now answering you.

The hot topic now WRT Israelis is that they're pro-apartheid (which is utter bullshit). But let's imagine a twisted Israel run by terrorists from KACH running an apartheid state; brainwashing a high percentage of the population into maintaining it in every cruel imaginable way. From the state-run government, to the courts system, to the media and educational institutions.

THAT, to me, would be a sick, nasty, disgusting Israeli society (not just regime).

And I don't see anything bigoted in saying so.

Now if the charges are complete bullshit and Israel is condemned for being a disgusting, sick & shitty nation (despite being demonstrably not & very much the opposite) then I'd say the charge of bigotry enters the equation. What else would motivate the accusers?

Then again, I think it's probably bigoted when people call for the destruction of Israel (anti-zionists and their supporters). You'd probably think the same WRT people calling for no Palestine or its annihilation.

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Response to shira (Reply #80)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:17 PM

82. I asked for a simple yes or no answer. You still can't do it...

It's pretty easy to read between the lines and see you try to justify bigotry against Palestinians by clinging to an invented one-dimensional vision of Palestinian society built from a mixture of ignorance and hatred.

For anyone to support bigotry against one people while claming the same thing is bigotry when aimed at another is disgusting. It doesn't matter what excuses they want to try trotting out...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:28 PM

85. The answer is NO, obviously. I don't have a problem labeling any society...

...that way when it's warranted; including Israeli society.

How was that not clear to you?

And there's nothing bigoted about it. If you still detect some kind of double-standard where I condone one type of bigotry over another, I'm sure you'll let me know.

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Response to shira (Reply #85)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:38 PM

86. Urgh, that's so ugly and revolting...

I'll tell you why, not that I think you'll care. Let's talk in a language of bigotry that you appear to understand so it might sink in. Antisemites will usually insist that their 'criticism' of Jews is warranted and they'll trot out example after example of something they think supports what they're saying. What they and other sick fucks like them don't realise is their ignorance of a people combined with hatred does not equate to warranting ugly and disgusting stereotypes being used to label any people.

You can also see RW types using the same 'but it's warranted' to try to justify their bigotry and hatred of Arabs and Muslims. And of course what that means is they think it's warranted when it comes to the group they hate, but when it comes to anyone holding the group they support to the same 'standards', suddenly they'll be trotting out excuses as to why it's not warranted and my guess is within five minutes they'd be flinging accusations of bigotry at the person pointing out the double standard...

Claiming that either Israeli or Palestinian societies are sick and diseased is bigoted, and it doesn't matter which society that's aimed at, or who's doing the aiming. It really is that simple. Making ignorant and ugly broadbrush claims about entire societies like that is bigoted, and it really does suck that support of bigoted comments against Palestinians are allowed at DU

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #86)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:11 PM

91. It's fascinating what you find acceptable vs. ugly & revolting. n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #91)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:20 PM

92. I find it totally bigoted if aimed at either Israelis or Palestinians...

You don't. I just explained in some detail why it's bigoted when aimed at either society, and that yr using an 'argument' I've seen used by antisemites and others to justify bigoted comments made against the groups they hate. You ignore it.

But you just go ahead and pretend that this is about my views. I honestly couldn't give a stuff what someone who in this very thread has expressed support of a bigoted comment about Palestinians thinks when it comes to anyone else in this group...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #92)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 05:08 AM

95. No, it's not bigoted at all.

Palestinian society is whatever the ruling power defines it as. That ruling power is Hamas in Gaza or Fatah in the WB. Their fascist, theocratic ideology, denied by many in the West who support their cause, is known to anyone familiar with PMW or MEMRI. This tactic (child abuse) may seem extreme to us, but I can assure you it's what radically repressive Hamas & Fatah have made mainstream in Palestine, by force, along with idolization of Samir Kuntar, and suicide bombers. They made it mainstream thru their government & educational institutions, & state-run media. That is what has led to nearly 75% Palestinians agreeing with the hadith in Hamas' charter about wanting to kill Jews hiding behind stones & trees. Moderates for peace & co-existance have no voice in this fear society.

So yes, it's sick.

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Response to shira (Reply #95)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 05:32 AM

97. Sorry, but it most definitely IS bigoted...

Go back and read the post yr replying to where I've explained why. Right now the way yr trying to justify the bigoted comment in this thread (the person who said it had their post hidden for returning and saying it again) in exactly the same way that antisemites try to justify antisemitism, and that's through a complete and utter ignorance and hatred of the people they are making the comments about. We've been through this before. You have no knowledge of Palestinian society, and when I offered to give you some pointers on what to read to learn about it, you showed zero interest. You also have no idea of what a society is....

So, yes. It's bigoted and sick that some here seem to think their own hatred and ignorance justifies supporting bigoted comments. What will you do next? Compare Palestinian society with Nazis? Oh, you've already done that back at DU2.

I fail to see any difference between yr posts and what you rail against...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #97)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:12 AM

102. No, what you think is bigoted is every and any criticism of Hamas or Fatah...

You equate Palestinians to them.

I've quoted Maryam Namazie before, but I'll do so once again to show the fallacy of your position WRT bigotry of any and everything Palestinian:

But that doesn’t mean that I think the sad excuse of much of the European Left is any better (even though I myself am on the Left).

It is an anti-colonial movement whose perspectives coincide with that of the ruling classes in the so-called Third World. This grouping is on the side of the ‘colonies’ no matter what goes on there. And their understanding of the ‘colonies’ is Eurocentric, patronising and even racist. In the world according to them, the people in these countries are one and the same with the regimes they are struggling against just as the ‘Muslim community’ here is one and the same with reactionary Islamic organisations, Sharia councils, and parasitical imams. Which is why at Stop the War Coalition demonstrations, they carry banners saying ‘We are all Hezbollah;’ at meetings they segregate men and women and urge unveiled women to veil out of ‘solidarity’ and ‘respect’.

This type of politics denies universalism, sees rights as ‘western,’ justifies the suppression of rights, freedoms and equality under the guise of respect for other ‘cultures’ implying that people want to live the way they are forced to and imputing on innumerable people the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class.

In this type of politics, the oppressor is victim and any criticism racist…


You need to read that again.

It's why you see any legitimate criticism of Hamas or Fatah as an attack on all Palestinians, and therefore racist or bigoted. I wouldn't make this claim if I saw you actively supporting liberal Palestinians against Hamas/Fatah and what they're currently doing to Palestinian society (destroying it).

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Response to shira (Reply #102)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:16 AM

103. I really wish you wouldn't throw things out there that are blatantly untrue about my views...

I've criticised both Hamas and Fatah in the past, so not sure where yr pulling that nonsense from. Please try and focus. The offensive and bigoted comment you have returned again and again to try to justify was NOT aimed at Hamas or Fatah. It was aimed at Palestinian society. It said that Palestinian society was sick and diseased. Are you following? There is a difference between criticising the political leadership of a people and making revolting stereotypes of an entire people, which is what someone is doing if they talk about Israeli or Palestinian society. I honestly think yr totally incapable of telling the difference...



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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #103)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:27 AM

106. Again, Hamas and Fatah are DESTROYING Palestinian society...

They are POISONING it with their views and their "resistance" or "struggle" against the Jews.

This latest video from the OP demonstrates how acceptable it is to bait Jews into reacting, in order to demonize them and bring about more hatred against them.

The very fact that 73% of Palestinian polled AGREE with the Hamas Charter hadith to kill the Jews shows how successful Palestinian leadership has been in poisoning and destroying Palestinian society.

There is NO dissent that we know of against this sickness within Palestinian society. Not for lack of critics, but because it's a FEAR society and dissent there isn't allowed without paying BIG penalties.

I stand by my comments.

The fact that you're incapable of responding intelligently goes to show you're desperate and that rather than debate anything, your immediate knee-jerk reaction is to label legitimate criticism as racism and bigotry. Your attempts to stifle all discussion with cries of racism is obvious.

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Response to shira (Reply #106)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:36 AM

108. Again, you need to stop making up what the views of other DUers are...

What part of what I'm telling you isn't sinking in for you to be going on about standing by yr comments. Apart from the bleeding obvious fact that I have criticised both Hamas and Fatah in the past, the bigoted comment you've done multiple posts trying to defend was about Palestinian society, not Hamas and/or Fatah. Seriously, what has to happen for you to actually take notice of what gets said to you? Right now it appears like you don't read anything that anyone says to you...

And for someone so determined to justify bigotry against Palestinians in this thread, you sure go all out to try to portray criticism of Israel (oops, or as you now call it 'The Jews') as being antisemitic. And I'm pretty sure yr not even comprehending that yr doing that...

Also, I'm very capable of responding intelligently. Maybe they define it differently wherever you are, but I do take the time to read, comprehend and respond to what's being posted. I'm also intelligent enough to understand what a society is and I'm so totally not interseted in any more attempts to justify what was most certainly a bigoted comment about Palestinians.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #108)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:46 AM

114. Oh? How have you criticized Hamas and Fatah before?

For their incitement to kill the Jews? For poisoning the next generation of Palestinians wanting to do the same? For succeeding at making this type of child abuse in the OP video acceptable and justifiable?

Show me where you've done this.

Once you come face to face with what the Palestinian leadership is, but not before then, will you realize how toxic their views have been on the Palestinian population (and greater society). As someone who professes to be pro-Palestinian, I fully expect you to come all out against Palestinian leadership for what they've done to the Palestinians you say you love so much.

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Response to shira (Reply #114)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:53 AM

117. Fatah for being corrupt, and Hamas for being extremist religious nutters...

I've done it many times since I joined DU back in 2002

It's been pointed out to you several times now and which you've totally ignored each time, the bigoted comment you've been energetically defending in this thread weren't talking about Hamas and Fatah, but about Palestinians themselves and their society. So for you to start throwing around weird accusations that it's not bigoted because criticism of Hamas and Fatah isn't bigoted is incredibly bizarre and suggests that you don't bother reading anything that's said in response to you.

Oh, and I've never said I love Palestinians. Where do you come up with this totally incorrect rubbish?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #117)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:58 AM

118. That's generic shit. You won't touch their incitement to murder Jews....

...and their efforts to brainwash Palestinians into believing the same thing. Or their success at making the OP video acceptable anti-Israel "resistance".

You either ignore or deny this is happening. And by doing so, there's no need for you to criticize Palestinian leadership for it.

So like I wrote earlier, you're against legit criticism of Palestinian leadership.

Once we get past that, we can continue on with how their ideology has poisoned and sickened Palestinian society. I realize you're uncomfortable discussing the really ugly side of Palestinian leadership. Now here's where you're probably thinking that if you do respond, you're going to have to create some moral equivalency fallacy and argue Israel does the "exact same thing", so it's hypocritical for Shira to rant about it. That's how you'll "address" the OP video, if at all.

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Response to shira (Reply #118)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:11 AM

121. No, that's not any sort of shit, That's been pretty much my stance my entire time at DU...

I can even go back and drag out some old posts where I criticised Hamas for their antisemitism, but it'll have to wait till tomorrow sometime, coz I'm not going to be rushing seeing I doubt you'll retract what you've said even if you do actually bother reading the link.


Once we get past that, we can continue on with how their ideology has poisoned and sickened Palestinian society.

What is it that yr just not comprehending about the fact that saying Palestinian society is sick and diseased is bigoted? What do you not get about being told repeatedly that the tactic you've used in this thread to justify a bigoted comment as not being bigoted is the same tactic used by antisemites to try to justify their bigotry against Jews? what people do when trying to justify bigotry is to trot out 'examples' based on their own ignorance and hatred and use that as *proof* . And it's apparently *proof* because they believe it is, and even though the same bigotry aimed at a group they support is quickly denounced by them as bigotry because they don't believe whatever *proof* accompanies that, they just don't see what they're doing...

So like I wrote earlier, you're against legit criticism of Palestinian leadership.

And it would be just as untrue as when you wrote it earlier. This time seeing it repeated after being corrected on it, I'd also point out that it's at the point where repeating it is dishonest.



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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #121)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:49 AM

127. Oh, it's shit alright. Precisely what have you had to say....

...about Palestinian leaders' incitement to and the encouragement and rewarding of attempts to kill masses of Jews? We're not talking ordinary antisemitism here, but murderous intent which goes WELL beyond antisemitism. There's a world of difference b/w garden variety stupid western bigots joking about kikes with big noses vs. intent to mass murder Jews. The latter is what you will not touch. You probably figure all antisemitism is the same (your Moral Equivalency kicking in again) so when you bust Hamas for knocking on Jews like WASPS do when they go on about crooked nosed Jews, that's enough in your view.

Let me put this another way:

All that content we see at PMW has a decidedly negative effect on Palestinians and their society at large. Agree/Disagree? Why or why not? I'm predicting you won't touch this one either and you'll just choose to continue minimizing the extent of Hamas/Fatah Jew hatred. Deflect with PMW is bigoted, etc... so it's not happening. Lieberman is just as bad, etc. Anything to avoid criticizing Palestinian leadership. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You're unwilling to really discuss the very ugly face of the Palestinian "cause".

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Response to shira (Reply #127)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 08:13 AM

129. I see now. You want to see where I've frothed at the mouth like a RW pro-settler lunatic?

Can't say I've done that because I leave that routine to others better armed.

See, you originally insisted that I NEVER criticise Hamas or Fatah. Then you must have realised you were soon to end up with egg on yr face, so you switched it a bit to have you criticised Hamas for their antisemitic swill. Then when you realised I had, you've gone and switched it a bit more to the pro-settler frothing. Because apparently being critical of Hamas or Fatah isn't legitimate criticism unless it's OTT ranting about genocide and Nazis and a good link or two to some bigoted anti-Arab pro-settler site...

Let me put this another way.

You appear to be having great difficulties comprehending that when you repeatedly make completely false claims about what I do or don't believe, and then get abusive and imply that I'm antisemitic, and then follow it up with making more crap followed by 'correct me if I'm wrong', I'm not interested in that sort of 'discussion', which is just you yelling at me telling me I believe things I don't and that I haven't posted things I have. I mean, you've been told several times now that I have criticised Hamas and Fatah, yet here you are again with 'Anything to avoid criticizing Palestinian leadership.' Is there some communication problem that's happening? Do I need to put that sort of stuff in bold red font and make it Heading1 so you will notice it? Or is it that you do see it, do comprehend it, but discard it because you've embarked on a specific track where you have everything all sorted out ready to post and little things like factuality suffer because of it?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #129)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 09:14 AM

132. No, I want to see some real criticism from you instead of denial...

Last edited Sat Nov 10, 2012, 10:42 AM - Edit history (1)

...and deflection. I once posted videos showing how disturbing Hamas & Fatah's murderous Jew hatred is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11343829#post90

It doesn't get more foul, sick, and despicable than that.

Apparently that's all RW settler bullshit to you and doesn't exist except in the fevered imaginations of frothing-at-the-mouth bigots. It can safely be ignored. Those posting it can be ridiculed. That way, you never have to confront it. IOW, this is what you've done from the moment you started posting here at DU about I/P.

Hell, you won't even confront the recent OP video above except to say (very reluctantly) that it's child abuse no worse than what was captured in the settler video.

That must be bullshit too.

Same WRT 73% of the Palestinian population being in favor of killing Jews as per the Hamas hadith. You scream bigotry against those condemning all that rather than stepping up to the plate to condemn it yourself. How proud you must be of yourself!

Is it any wonder why people would question your motives WRT anything I/P related?

Once you choose to confront head-on the foul content of those PMW videos as well as the OP above, certain PEW polls, etc, we can then have a REAL conversation about what constitutes bigotry WRT claims about Palestinian society.

Until then, take your games elsewhere or play with yourself.

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Response to shira (Reply #132)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:36 PM

136. Since when has criticising Hamas and Fatah been 'denial and deflection'?

Sorry, but this is really getting extremely silly. As I've said before, I've been critical of both Fatah and Hamas openly during my time here at DU, so I'm not sure what you think yr achieving from ignoring that and continuing to make false accusations...

As for that link to one of yr own posts. It's very interesting that in a thread where the OP was about Romney and his hatred of Palestinians, you appeared in there to support what he was saying.And anyone who believes the vast majority of Palestinians are wannabe genocidal Nazi types is someone who has some pretty major issues, imo.

But you digress. Again, you seem to ignore that only a moron would want to have a REAL conversation with someone who's idea of a REAL conversation seems to be repeating false claims about the other person even after being corrected multiple times, and who keeps on making the mistake of speaking on behalf of everyone else rather than herself....

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #136)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:42 AM

148. You won't touch their systematic child abuse vs. Palestinian kids

http://palestinianchildabuse.com/

You're pretending this widescale abuse doesn't even exist.

As to Romney, I'm not sure he can hate Palestinians anymore than their alleged supporters who loathe them by tacitly supporting wide-scale child abuse dedicated to the Palestinian "cause". But now that you brought it up, what do you do with the statistic that 73% of Palestinians agree with the Hamas charter hadith to kill Jews? You ignore and deny that too.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #86)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:56 PM

133. I don't see how fair critique that is true, can be bigoted.

Last edited Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

"Society" is a set of ideas. Ideas are subject to criticism are they not? Was Nazi German society sick and hateful? Is North Korean society problematic? I believe so, and that doesn't make me at all anti-German or anti-Korean. You are correct that antisemites say that their criticism of Jews is warranted. The issue isn't criticism however, it's that the antisemitic criticism of Jews is a lie. With that in mind, is it fair to say that Jews tend to see antisemitism behind every critique? Not every Jew, perhaps, but it's a fair generalization. That isn't bigotry. I'll give you another one. If Israeli society encourages a belief that Palestinians are animals and "untermenschen" isn't that sick and evil? I don't believe that Israeli society does do that, but if it did, I'd sure say it was sick and evil. So the real issue on this thread is whether the claim of the video is true. Does Palestinian society (whatever that might be) encourage the mis-use of children in this way? Hamas sure does. Is that enough to generalize to all of Palestinian society? I don't think so. But if the generalization is supported by sufficient other evidence, then it isn't bigoted. Broad brush generalizations about entire societies are always suspect, but once in while they are true, and then they aren't necessarily hateful.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #133)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:18 PM

139. I do, and I'll give you one example that I saw happen...

A person appeared on another forum I used to belong to and came out with some antisemitic crap about how there were more Jews in Hollywood than in proportion to their numbers in other areas. And when she got told it was antisemitic, she informed me that it was true so therefore it couldn't be bigoted and proceeded to start rattling off long, long lists of people who she claimed were Jewish and in Hollywood right up till she got banned. I don't see how that can be seen as anything other than bigoted.

"Society" is basically a group of people who are related to each other and share common experiences etc. It's closely related to culture, another thing that Shira has in the past equated with Nazis when it comes to Palestinians. political leadership at any given time doesn't have anything to do with the society. For instance, Australian society didn't change when we had the misfortune to have a RW leadership that followed Dubya around fawning over him, and society couldn't be blamed for what the leadership did...

What concerns me a lot in this thread is the way one instance of something is being used to portray all Palestinians as being the same. Should we do the same when it comes to Israelis? I bet if one instance of something really ugly (for example the settler taking their small child into a volatile and dangerous situation where they're attacking a Palestinian farmer) is used to portray all Israelis as being like that, there'd be a whole different reaction. And in this case, the attempt by two in this thread to portray what happened in the OP as somehow being something to judge all Palestinian society on is clearly suspect. I remember reading an interview with Barghouti where he interrupted the interview to order his teenage son not to go doing any stonethrowing at Israeli soldiers because he feared for his safety. Why is it that would get ignored and not used as a generalisation about Palestinian society if people are pulling out one instance of something to make sweeping generalisations about an entire people?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #139)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:33 PM

140. Your example doesn't show bigotry.

If anything, it shows that the claim that Jews see antisemitism in every critique or comment is true. The lady was almost certainly correct that there are more Jews in entertainment than there are Jews in the genreal population. Fewer in sports. That's not bigotry, it's statistics. Either it's true or it's not. In her case it was entirely true. Now, depending on why she posted that or what she made of it, she might be considered an antisemite. But merely stating the fact isn't antisemitism at all.

"For instance, Australian society didn't change when we had the misfortune to have a RW leadership that followed Dubya around fawning over him, and society couldn't be blamed for what the leadership did..."

True enough, but Australia is a liberal democracy, not a totalitarian state. In fact, I think you are insulting Australians when you compare their Conservatives to totalitarian thugs like Hamas.

"What concerns me a lot in this thread is the way one instance of something is being used to portray all Palestinians as being the same."

As it should. It concerns me too. My point is not to suggest that this particular instance justifies calling all of Palestinian society sick or disgusting. It doesn't. But the point of argument is not that all generalizations are wrong. It's that this generalization is wrong.


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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #75)


Response to shira (Reply #68)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:47 AM

155. So much projection and hate on your part.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:53 AM

5. You don't see one thing wrong in that video, do you?

In fact, I'd reckon you support it.

Am I right?

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Response to shira (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:11 PM

8. actually you seem to be the one supporting it

at least the Israeli poutrage over it but as I said perhaps IDF has gained the insight to not beat children in front of a camera

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 04:45 AM

27. Deflection. Again, do you support this kiddie resistance? n/t

Last edited Thu Nov 8, 2012, 05:21 AM - Edit history (2)

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Response to shira (Reply #27)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:01 AM

30. as I said above you seem to be the one promnoting this to score some antiPalestinian points

on the eve of the UN vote to upgrade Palestinian status with the UN, first you started out implying the girl was specially chosen because she was blond and that it was a staged incident
when that fell flat it became concern for poor abused Palestinian children, well as long as its Palestinians doing the abusing anyway, I see nothing of sort I don't speak presumably Arabic so I really do not know what was going except for the narration in the first video

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #30)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 05:56 PM

42. You claim not to see child abuse in that video. Says it all, really.

Here's Shirley Temper from 2011 (a few pics down the page) suffering the after-effects of tear gas.

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/nabi-saleh-4-year-old-child-on-his-way-home-attacked-with-tear-gas-by-israeli-forces-in-pictures/

Proving mom uses her as propaganda.

After all, what kind of mom takes her 4-5 year old daughter back to such a dangerous area after that?


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Response to shira (Reply #42)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:31 PM

46. yes Bassem Tamimi's daughter is being abused I would call having one father

imprisoned for a peaceful demonstration kind of abusive in a psychological sense anyway

and oh both girls are about 9-10 years old or about twice your claim but who's counting huh?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #46)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:36 PM

47. Still claiming no abuse by mom and fellow activists? Amazing!

You see abuse by Israel jailing the father, but no abuse otherwise.

Wow.

Which goes to show Palestinian human rights comes a distant 2nd to you; way behind Palestinian nationalism.

Why not just admit it?

Or, that Palestinian human rights only mean something if Israel can be blamed.

========

Hey, can you admit the video shows activists goading the IDF for propaganda purposes?

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Response to shira (Reply #47)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:57 PM

51. abuse weren't there claims her parents weren't there ?

and nothing happened most likely because there were cameras present and this incident happen shortly after an IDF soldier slammed his gun in the face of an activist for the cameras

as to propaganda purposes the only ones using this for propaganda are the Pro-Israel activist attempting to pump this for -----propaganda

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #51)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:01 PM

53. Riiiight. No abuse! Nothing to see here, now move along! n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #53)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:51 PM

89. Here's some child abuse that's been posted before that you never seem to notice...

Guess that'd be because it's Israeli settlers doing it to their own children. This video has only recently been posted in this forum, yet you and other Concerned Citizens don't appear to have the time or interest in saying anything about it. I wonder why?

&feature=player_embedded

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #89)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 05:21 AM

96. It is child abuse...

Thankfully, Israelis aren't conditioned (sometimes by force) by their ruling elite into thinking this type of behavior is justifiable. Reminds me of mothers who smoke around their toddlers, who leave them alone in locked cars, and who scream or curse at others while holding them in their arms.

What makes the ISM video far more repulsive is how routine & how ugly this child abuse is (kick the jew & get him when/if he reacts). How such twisted propaganda is embraced by the "resistance" and tacitly supported by anyone (Westerners included) claiming to be pro-Palestinian. It shows the true face of western "humanitarians" claiming to be for Palestinian civil rights. Most activists in the video are there via the ISM. The video isn't an indictment of what passes as the Palestinian cause these days as much as it also an indictment of what their Western supporters are all about (from the UN to NGO's, BDS, the FGM, Mondoweiss/EI, and random academics). They're all sick fucks eager to make others become Jew hating bigots like themselves.

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Response to shira (Reply #96)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 05:37 AM

98. I knew there'd be a BUT there. There's no 'thankfully' when it comes to child abuse...

I don't even think you realise how absolutely revolting that post is. Thankfully? Are you fucking for real? I don't know what planet that post beamed in from, but there's no scale where child abuse is better or worse depending on who does it.

I support the Palestinians and I'm not a sick fuck who hates Jews. Neither are the many other Left Wing DUers who support the Palestinian cause. Given the disgusting attempts today in other posts to try to justify bigotry against Palestinians, I'm going to suggest to you that you may want to stop calling others bigots...

Here's the link to one of the many posts in this thread where you attempt to justify the bigoted comments made about Palestinians as not being bigoted, even though here you are now wildly accusing everyone and anyone of being bigoted against Jews. My how the standards are so very different when it comes to bigotry depending on what group yr talking about...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20731

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #98)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 05:56 AM

100. Oh great, The Moral Equivalency fallacy strikes again

§ DEFINITION
Moral Equivalence – defining distinct and conflicting moral behaviors in similar terms.


An author who suggests that one act of serious wrongdoing does not differ from a minor offence commits the fallacy of moral equivalence. Many people say that “all sins are equal in God’s eyes,” which effectively equates ethnic cleansing with stealing a pencil. Our laws make many precise distinctions amongst the various types of violent crimes. Motives are different, and so these criminals are held accountable accordingly.

http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-analysis-moralequiv.htm

Anything Hamas and Fatah does is perpetrated by Israel doing the same exact thing.

Israel is like Nazi Germany, Apartheid S.Africa, Colonial & Imperialist forces from yesteryear, the deep racist American south from 50 years ago....



Newsflash, Violet: Religious fundamentalists come up with the same arguments. See the bold print in the quote above.

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Response to shira (Reply #100)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:11 AM

101. Yr seriously sitting there trying to argue that child abuse is worse depending on who does it?

I've seen some sick stuff in my time, but that really takes the cake. For fuck's sake. The damage done to a child is horrific no matter who carries out the abuse. There's no 'thankfully' about it...

Israel is like Nazi Germany, Apartheid S.Africa, Colonial & Imperialist forces from yesteryear, the deep racist American south from 50 years ago....

Why do you start coming out with random silly crap like that? Is it some kneejerk thing because I correctly pointed out that you have in the past compared Palestinian society with Nazis? I can go dig up the link to the thread at DU2 if you need reminding.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #101)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:17 AM

104. Smoking in front of your child isn't the same as raping your child.

You're living by the Moral Equivalency Fallacy.

It's why you find Israeli defensive actions against Hamas equal to - or even more disgusting as - Hamas rocket attacks and suicide bombs.

It's impossible to take you seriously when you do this.

And you're doing it again WRT this incidence of child abuse.

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Response to shira (Reply #104)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:28 AM

107. But the settlers were doing exactly the same thing as the Palestinians

There's no moral equivalency about it. Maybe you could explain exactly what it was about the settlers abusive treatment of her own child that somehow made it less damaging or wrong than the other one?


It would really really upset me if someone with yr views on what isn't bigotry against Palestinians, and child abuse, didn't take me seriously. Almost as badly as knowing that RW types don't take me seriously. I lie awake at night fretting over how to get them to like me and take me seriously. *sob*

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #107)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:38 AM

109. Of course it's the same to you.

But you have yet to really comment on what's happening in the video from the OP. The motivation behind it. Who it's aimed at. For what purposes is it being made.

Once you do that, you go ahead and try to compare what the settler mom is doing.

They're not exactly the same thing.

============

Seriously, you need to learn from the Moral Equivalency Fallacy. That way, you'd hopefully start to distinguish yourself from RW fundamentalist types who see all "sins" equally. As it is, you're "exactly the same" as they are.

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Response to shira (Reply #109)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:44 AM

112. They're both examples of child abuse, and neither should be minimised...

They were both examples of children being put in dangerous situations with no thought to the safety of the child. There's no 'thankfully' when it comes to one or the other, nor is one to be condemned while ignoring the other because it suits yr agenda.

Again, you don't know any more about fallacies than you do about Palstinian society or the history of the conflict. Because of course they're not the same thing. One was done by Palestinians and the other by extremist Israeli settlers. And that difference matters a lot for some...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #112)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:51 AM

115. You said they're exactly the same....

You probably believe the settler mother coordinated her remarks with the camera man, trying to goad her opponent into attacking her child for propaganda points. In order to make Palestinians appear to be subhuman Jew hating Nazi savages.

You must believe that.

It's why you said they're exactly the same.


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Response to shira (Reply #115)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:00 AM

119. Actually I didn't. But you just keep on making up strawmen to knock over...

What I said was that there's no sliding scale where some child abuse is worse than others based on who does it.

What I'm seeing from you is a burning desire to minimise the child abuse from the extremist settler, and I find that extremely disturbing. And I still find that 'thankfully' really disturbing.

The bottom line is it shouldn't matter if the abuser is Israeli or Palestinian. That should just so not come into things when it comes to child abuse. Unfortunately it's the most important thing for some folk such as yrself, and that's not good at all...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #119)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:04 AM

120. Actually, you did say they're exactly the same. Shall I quote you?

I'm not minimizing any child abuse. That's what you are doing.

You're running interference for the Palestinian mother by pointing to a settler woman who does "the same thing". You're deflecting criticism from the Palestinian mother and are avoiding at all costs the content of the OP video. If that's not minimizing child abuse, nothing is.

I'm just not playing your game, that's all. I'm not willing to equate "all sins" like you are.

Enough of this de-railing attempt. You want to argue about the settler mom, open a new thread. I have no objection discussing that with you. When you're ready to discuss the significance of the OP video, do let me know.

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Response to shira (Reply #120)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:19 AM

122. Both were putting their children in harms way with no regard to the children's safety...

That's what was exactly the same.

And I'm not minimising child abuse. I'm not the one who sat there and went off on a 'but' to try to minimise the abuse of a child because the parent was an Israeli settler. That's all you.

I'm absolutely positive I'm not running interference for anyone. What I did was quite rightly point to a recently posted video of child abuse which you'd totally ignored. Ignoring one for what looks to be like because the parent and the child were Israeli settlers gives a big hint that the motivations for getting all outraged have nothing to do with concern about children, but to try to score some propaganda points or whatever it is people think they do when they go on like this. As I said before and you keep on ignoring, it shouldn't matter one iota whether the parent and child is Palestinian or Israeli...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #122)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:29 AM

125. You're still minimizing what the Palestinian mother did to her girl....

You are avoiding at all costs the deliberate attempt to use her girl as a propaganda stunt; hoping to get a reaction out of an IDF soldier in order to send video out to the world portraying Israel and its Jews as monsters.

THAT is the Palestinian mom's motivation.

Otherwise, you're right about both moms putting their children in danger. However, those who don't fall for Moral Equivalency Fallacies know that what each mom did isn't considered the same from a legal or moral standpoint. You are so desperately trying to equate the two acts precisely because you want to run interference for the Palestinian mother and her vile attempts to deliberately put her child in harm's way. At best, the settler mother can be accused of negligence. The Palestinian mom gets the book thrown at her in comparison. Yes, both are guilty but their "sins" are not considered the same in the Lord's eyes.

Reminds me of your attempts to equate any Israeli defensive reaction to rockets with Hamas' attempts to rocket civilians.

You minimize Hamas' terror attempts by running interference via deflection just as you're doing now. That's your idea of "criticism".

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Response to shira (Reply #125)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:35 AM

126. Not at all. I'm pointing out how you minimised the settlers abuse...

It's a pretty simple concept to grasp. Tacking 'thankfully' and then galloping into a diatribe blaming politicians for one and making out that makes all the difference is really objectionable.

Oh, so yr reminded of my attempts to <insert some stupid thing here that has nothing to do with what was being discussed>. Strange how you can see all this stuff I supposedly say that isn't there, yet when it comes to things I actually do say (like my criticism of Hamas and Fatah) it magically becomes invisible. You'll have an idea of what my idea of criticism is if you bothered to take the time to go read in the archives and see what I actually say instead of what you invent for me...

Again, this is a discussion forum, and I don't run interference for anyone. I really do think you take this whole thing far too seriously...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #126)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 08:02 AM

128. And I'm pointing out that you brought up another video to minimize the OP video....

You're still avoiding the OP, btw, and it's obvious.

Simply pointing out that your Moral Equivalencies are shit isn't minimizing anything. Your fundamentalist view that all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord is nonsense. But I realize this is the best you've got.

What do you think of the ISM now that their tactics (in the OP video) have been exposed? Are you still very supportive of them now that their ugliness has been exposed once again?

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Response to shira (Reply #128)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 08:23 AM

130. No, if you'd actually bothered to read what I'd said, you know that's not true...

I posted it as a recent example of a video of child abuse that got posted in this group that was studiously ignored by those who claim to be motivated by the welfare of children. Unlike you, I was quick to say I thought the OP was child abuse...

btw, since when has there been any rule at DU that says someone who posts in a thread has to address the OP? You certainly don't do that, so it's a bit hypocritical to demand something of others you don't do yrself...

Oh, and another bit of baloney to add to the massive pile. I don't hold any fundamentalist views and I don't believe in god or sins and have no idea what yr talking about. You really have to stop putting words in other peoples mouths.

Sorry, but if you ever want to have a genuine discussion with others, you should try being less hostile and nasty, and do a bit less of the implying that I'm a bigot, and a lot less of the repeating false claims about my beliefs even after being corrected on them.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #130)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 09:03 AM

131. You fear admitting what makes the OP video different than the settler one....

Last edited Sat Nov 10, 2012, 10:47 AM - Edit history (3)

I know, it's a game changer for you here. A total and complete narrative buster.

You won't even comment on it other than saying very reluctantly that the video is child abuse. I can't help but believe you refuse doing so b/c you tacitly support what's going on there. No, not child abuse, but the overall tactic to convince others to hate Israel and its citizens. You won't ever admit that this sick, bigotry is one of the primary goals of Palestinian resistance. You certainly won't condemn it if you can't acknowledge it. So it seems you support it. The ISM sure as hell does and you support them too, without reservation.

That's sick.

The same ISM that set up and is still knee deep in the now discredited (and provenly antisemitic) FreeGaza Movement.

Takes some nerve of you to accuse others of bigotry.

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Response to shira (Reply #131)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:53 PM

138. No, yr still not bothering to take any notice of what I'm saying...

Go back and read the post you hit the reply button on without reading the post. Then return and try addressing what I said rather than totally ignoring it all and continuing along as though no-ones bothered saying anything to you. The way you keep on coming back and making up stuff about my views despite the fact that I've been very clear as to what they are isn't a good debating tactic, imho....

Y'know, you don't really have any credibility at all when it comes to discussing bigotry, not given the amazing double standards that have been displayed in this thread. For some reason equating Palestinians with Nazis and saying their society is sick and diseased is embraced and defended, but everyone who supports the Palestinian cause is accused of being a bigot. That bar which is raised so very, very high when it comes to bigotry against Palestinians gets dropped a fair bit when it comes to bigotry against Jews....

So, I'm absolutely appalled that you think child abuse is worse if it's carried out by a Palestinian than it is if carried out by an Israeli. As I've said many times now, whether the person doing it is Palestinian or Israeli is totally irrelevent...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #138)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:38 AM

147. Oh, I've read what you had to say and it's complete & utter BS

Last edited Sun Nov 11, 2012, 08:51 PM - Edit history (1)

All I see from someone who professes to be pro-Palestinian is you running interference distracting and throwing smoke screens away from the elephant in the room. That elephant in the room is wide-scale child abuse perpetrated for the Palestinian cause against Israel.

You keep writing that I'm hypocritical for not showing more concern about the settler mom and her abuse. You're missing the point, and I believe you're doing so deliberately. It's part of your attempt at moral equivalency where all "sins" are the same. The settler mom is just as bad. Well no, she's not just as bad. Smoking and cursing in front of your child or leaving them locked in the car for a few minutes is child abuse, but its not the same as raping a child or pushing that child into armed soldiers pining for a good photo op. I know that you know the difference but persist with the bullshit.

What's hypocritical is folks like yourself who agonize over anything Israel is perceived of doing vs. Palestinians. Well here's a prime example of what Palestinians and their western supporters are doing to Palestinian children. They're destroying Palestinian society. All of a sudden you're not interested. THAT is where the hypocrisy lies and it's monstrous. This child abuse is ongoing and you're pretending it doesn't even exist. That way, you don't even have to condemn it.

Here's a website dedicated to documenting child abuse during anti-Israel activity:
http://palestinianchildabuse.com/

When pro-Palestinian types are deliberately blind to wide scale abuse like that and pretend it really isn't happening, how can they expect for people to take them seriously WRT human rights in the I/P conflict ever again?

It's monstrous and evil to deliberately ignore, deny, and run interference for such horrendous child abuse.

That said, it's a joke when you pull out the bigot card WRT comments about Palestinian society. Palestinian society cannot be understood correctly without taking these things you refuse to recognize into consideration. I may not profess to be pro-Palestinian, but whatever people here think of me WRT Palestinians, I don't wish them ill like their so-called defenders do when they tacitly support such abuse.

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Response to shira (Reply #96)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:48 AM

156. All praise the even tempered Israelis for practicing restraint

against evil Palestinian children.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:47 PM

10. You trying to say there's no blond Arabs

Really ?

That's ignorance .

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Response to King_David (Reply #10)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:50 PM

12. nice try but yes there are blond Arabs

my comment related to the silly claim she was chosen because she's blond but don't let that stop ya

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:07 PM

17. How do you get that? From your post about gas ?

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Response to King_David (Reply #17)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 01:32 AM

26. where did you get it? or don't you really know?

but yes there are blond Arabs and there are Black Arabs too

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 05:45 AM

69. Well, you know how treacherous and sneaky those dirty pallies are! n/t

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #69)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 05:58 AM

70. So as a mom, you'd send your little child out to pick a fight with a soldier...

...hoping the soldier strikes back in order to score political points?

You'd do that?

Or encourage only Palestinian mothers to do that?

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Response to shira (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:11 AM

72. Oooh, blood libel now, too.

Tell me Shira. Do the Palestinians control the world banking industry, too? Might as well touch all the bases, right?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #72)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 06:16 AM

74. You dodged the question. Typical...

And claiming victimhood to boot!



Let's talk about the OP.

You for or against such activism? From a mother's point of view...

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Response to shira (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:29 PM

79. Don't go accusing anyone of doing exactly what you've done in this thread...

You've just dodged the question I asked you here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20700

Probably not a good idea to accuse anyone else of doing it when an example of you doing it is in such proximity

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #79)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:09 PM

81. I had no problem answering. You have yet to do so...

Shall I assume you support it, or don't really give a shit unless Israelis can be blamed for the abuse of Palestinian children?

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Response to shira (Reply #81)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:25 PM

84. Bullshit. After being asked three times you still haven't given a straight answer...

And now yr sitting there flinging 'questions' at me? Okay, not sure what you think I'm supoosed to be supporting, but I know from long experience in this group that you'll just make up what you want me to think regardless of what I actually say...


For anyone else who may be genuinelly interested in what I think, any parent who places their child directly in a situation that's dangerous and volatile is a bad parent. That doesn't change based on whether the parent is Israeli or Palestinian. But having said that, I'm not falling for the bullshit spun by a few of the more zealoted 'supporters' of Israel where they make out that each and every instance of the IDF killing or harming a Palestinian is fabricated by the Palestinians, which is where I suspect this one is leading, and why there's so much overheated *concern* about children in this case while in other threads where videos of extremist settlers placing their children in volatile and dangerous situations, there's been not one single word about child abuse. Figure that one out. I can't

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Response to shira (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:18 PM

83. I was talking about the OP, Shira.

Specifically the part where you accused the sneaky, treacherous "pallies" of "making their children look like 'regular' blonde european and American girls."

What is that "regular blonde european and american" bullshit, anyway?



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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #83)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:41 PM

87. When considering the girl is being cynically used for propaganda purposes....

...and that the 'market' for this act are Westerners, it's really no big stretch to discuss how she appeals to the intended audience.

What do you think of this propaganda strategy?

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Response to shira (Reply #87)


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #83)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:46 PM

88. I noticed that bit of racism in the OP as well...

But Shira didn't write that, she's merely agreeing with it, just like she agreed with the comment that Palestinian society is sick and diseased. Given the extremely ugly and at times antisemitic blog the article that started this thread links to, that bit of racism in the OP comes as no surprise...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #88)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:45 AM

149. If you'd like to talk about racism WRT using blonde-haired Palestinian girls...

...wearing Peace and Love t-shirts, let's go right ahead.

I'm assuming you don't want to get into it based on the fact you don't wish to discuss the parents' motivation in putting the child into that situation in the first place.

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Response to shira (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:37 PM

9. crazy

How can it be that kids are allowed to scream at and taunt soldiers from an arms length away?

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Response to Mosby (Reply #9)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:48 PM

11. Can you think of any other examples in any other country....

...where this strategy could be utilized successfully, time and time over with help from the press, in order to demonize a group of people?

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Response to shira (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:57 PM

13. No

And clearly the adults and children in the video are not the least bit concerned about their safety.

The video does not reflect well on the Palestinian moms who are using their kids for propoganda.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:05 PM

16. Popular non-violent resistance encouraged by...

...Mondoweiss, Electronic Intifada, the ISM, PSC, BDS, and of course FreeGaza.

Cameras provided by B'tselem.

Compliant press willing to oblige in demonization campaign; essentially taking an active role in creating rather than reporting on I/P news.


Viva la resistance!!!

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Response to shira (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:58 PM

14. Pallywood: The Adventures Of Shirley Temper

&feature=player_embedded#!

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Response to shira (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:42 PM

18. Anyone allowing their children to do this,

Does not really care too much for their children's wellbeing.

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Response to King_David (Reply #18)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:48 PM

20. The FreeGaza, BDS, Mondoweiss crowd supports this resistance. n/t

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Response to shira (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:48 PM

19. More Pallywood: From 2 years ago. Settler runs over youth...

Notice about 6-7 photographers there for another Pallywood exclusive! Adults, photographers, parents, and activists encouraging children to get in harm's way by stoning Jewish drivers head-on.

&feature=player_embedded

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Response to shira (Reply #19)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:22 PM

21. Disgusting child abuse nt

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Response to King_David (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:29 PM

22. The Palestinians have the right to resist with their kids. n/t

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Response to shira (Original post)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:00 PM

43. Money shot: Shirley Temper with Mahmoud Abbas

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Response to shira (Original post)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:14 PM

44. Now for the REAL reason for this exercize in manufactured outrage about an incident from last June

Last edited Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

it's who the girls parents and extended family are interesting how that has not been mention and that these children whom there is a pretense of caring about6 from some here do not even have the respect to call them by their names but rather a nickname given them by 'pro-Israel' media and from CAMERA no less, wonder why no one has posted it previously

A’hd is the daughter of Narimen and Bassem, prominent activists in the Popular Resistance, and Marah’s father is Naji, another leader in the weekly demonstrations. In other words, the girls’ parents are among those who determine the protests’ strategies. Rather than keeping their children at a safe distance from the often-violent clashes, the parents encouraged their children to play highly visible roles in the confrontation with the army. . . Though photographs of the crying and constrained A’hd and Marah are actually products of Palestinian manipulation and exploitation of children, the Australian media outlets publish them unquestioningly as ostensible evidence of Israeli abuse of Palestinian children. In other words, the Tamimi girls pulled off a photographic coup, as their parents had hoped. For this, they were rewarded with a meeting with Laila Ghannam, the Palestinian Authority’s Governor of Ramallah, and President Mahmoud Abbas, who congratulated them for their “bravery.”


http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=2322

they're supposed to love their captures doncha' know, it's kind of a reverse Stockholm Syndrome

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #44)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:40 PM

48. Yes, we know you support putting Palestinian children deliberately in harm's way....

....in order to demonize Israel.

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Response to shira (Reply #48)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:43 PM

49. well 'we' know something but I'm not sure you have it right

but at least your sticking to this story guess the chosen for being blond didn't float to well huh?

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Response to shira (Reply #48)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:05 PM

54. How are the children in harm's way?

This is the world's most moral army, after all. Surely you're not suggesting that the good men of the IDF would ever harm these little girls?

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #54)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:09 PM

55. Non-violent stone throwing countered by tear gas....

Check out these photos:

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/nabi-saleh-4-year-old-child-on-his-way-home-attacked-with-tear-gas-by-israeli-forces-in-pictures/

Would you send your own very small children out again and again, repeatedly, after such an episode?

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Response to shira (Reply #55)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:29 PM

58. Thats not a response to the question...

and as for children, there were many children in the civil rights marches, and footage of Black kids being battered by water cannons and mauled by police dogs was crucial to support for the passage of civil rights legislation.

Do you think Black people should keep their kids at home, rather than expose them to the danger that they might be brutalised by police?

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #58)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 07:51 PM

59. Really? You're comparing stone throwers to civil rights activists now?

I wasn't aware American Blacks and their kids participated in non-violent, legitimate resistance in the form of stone throwing rallies intended to harm random white people.

Any parent putting their children in harm's way like this is a monster.

And you're defending it.

BTW, check out the video above in #19 WRT Palestinian youth stoning Jewish motorists. Is that what you're comparing the civil rights movement to?

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Response to shira (Reply #59)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:41 PM

62. Certainly, there was stone-throwing at some of the civil rights marches in the US...

such as the Memphis rally in March, 1968. In South Africa, Black demonstrators also threw rocks at the police prior to the Sharpeville Massacre, for example. There was also a lot of stone throwing in Northern Ireland, in fact you encounter it pretty much anywhere where you have a police force trying to subjugate a local population.

The difference is that no reasonable person seriously tries to use stone-throwing as a moral alibi for police brutality in South Africa or the American South. And no one tries to justify Bull Connor or the Sharpeville massacre on the basis that some demonstrators threw stones. Only fringe-dwelling, bilge-filled racists would seriously attempt to argue such a thing.

Unfortunately, within the hasbarado community those same bilge-filled racists are not on the fringe, but instead form the core of the movement. For these people, pretty much any instance of stone-throwing justifies pretty much any response by the IDF. And if a kid happens to get an IDF bolo round in the head, well its his parents' fault for letting him outside in the first place. He was asking for it.

Frankly, its difficult to see any daylight between Kahane Chai and your average pro-Israel ideologue these days.






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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #62)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:50 PM

63. Stone throwing at Jewish motorists is nothing to be proud about...

&feature=player_embedded

Now I suppose neo-nazis and their ilk support this type of resistance against Jews. Certainly, this resistance is the equivalent of the resistance at West Bank rallies. All are martyrs. This all counts as popular resistance. Legitimate, in fact. Any Palestinian hurt whether in this incident or any rally against the IDF is considered a victim of brutal, colonial, apartheid-style aggression.

Reminds me of stories my elders would tell me about walking the streets in their youth, being cursed, spit on, punched, and generally harassed for the crime of being Jewish.

I'll even wager there were folks then who thought that was legitimate resistance too.

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Response to shira (Reply #63)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 02:02 AM

94. How come they're always "Jewish" when

they're getting rocks thrown at them, but they're always "Israelis" when they're wielding the rocks themselves?

As in this example, where some Israeli (or would you prefer I call them Jewish?) soldiers decided to helpfully perform minor surgery on a Palestinian with the aid of some rocks:-



But it is the Palestinians' fault I suppose. After all, why did they risk life and limb by going outside in a war zone?

No doubt if Palestinian society was not so sick and diseased they would have stayed home instead.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #94)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 05:45 AM

99. That's so people can be swiftly labelled 'sick fucks' and 'Jew hating bigots'

A recent addition to this thread:

'it also an indictment of what their Western supporters are all about (from the UN to NGO's, BDS, the FGM, Mondoweiss/EI, and random academics). They're all sick fucks eager to make others become Jew hating bigots like themselves.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=20732

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #99)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:20 AM

105. If the OP video doesn't show a coordinated effort....

...to demonize Jews and make people absolutely hate Israel, then what is it? I think you know that's exactly what it is, but for reasons unknown you won't approach it.

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Response to shira (Reply #105)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:38 AM

110. I'll refer you back to yr own words

'your immediate knee-jerk reaction is to label legitimate criticism as racism and bigotry. Your attempts to stifle all discussion with cries of racism is obvious.'

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #110)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:40 AM

111. Aww, you dodged another one. Let me know when you're ready...

...to discuss this like an adult.

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Response to shira (Reply #111)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:45 AM

113. I didn't dodge anything. I'm just suggesting you apply what you say to yr own posts...

There's no need for any discussion, imo, as it was posted to make a point about saying one thing and doing another...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #113)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:52 AM

116. Then discuss the significance of the OP video. I'll wait.

See, I'm thinking you won't do so b/c you think doing so hurts the Palestinian cause. You're against legit criticism of what passes for anti-Israel activism.

Prove me wrong.

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Response to shira (Reply #116)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:23 AM

123. I see you didn't bother reading what I said about there being no need to discuss what I said...

I was discussing the significance of the acceptance of bigotry against Palestinians, and the way there's a completely different standard applied in the same thread when it comes to different forms of bigotry...

I don't 'discuss' with people who not only make up things about my views that are blatantly untrue, but then make sweeping and stupid comments in the very same post where they're 'inviting' me to have a discussion....

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #123)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 02:50 PM

134. Of course there's no need for you to criticize the most foul anti-Israel activism

I don't expect you to ever do so b/c it appears you tacitly support the non-violent ISM style of resistance seen in the OP video above.

That much is obvious.

And there is no bigotry of Palestinians going on here, except in your imagination. What's funny is that your side accuses hasbarados of shutting down all criticism of Israel by crying 'antisemitism'. But that's EXACTLY what you're doing here. And you have the audacity to bring up 'different standards'?

Gob-smacked, palm2face doesn't even begin to describe it!


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Response to shira (Reply #134)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:44 PM

137. Again, you didn't bother reading what I posted. How about you give it a try?

I was discussing the significance of the acceptance of bigotry against Palestinians, and the way there's a completely different standard applied in the same thread when it comes to different forms of bigotry...

I don't know where you get the strange idea that everyone MUST respond to the OP. That's really ridiculous and something you yrself don't do....

And no matter how much you do the double standard thing where you insist that the ugly and bigoted comment aimed at Palestinians in this thread wasn't bigoted, it doesn't make you correct. I've explained to you exactly why saying that was bigoted, yet you ignore it and start attacking me. And when you attack me, you get everything consistantly wrong. I'm not even sure what that nonsense about 'my side' is supposed to be proving. That yr incapable of telling any difference between legitimate criticism of Israel and antisemitism? That wouldn't surprise me given the way you can't tell the difference when it comes to Palestinians and how you've been continually changing how you refer to Israelis and they become Jews or Jewish soldiers in order for you to try to portray anyone who disagrees with Israeli policy as antisemitic. I mean, you actually came straight out and called people who suport the Palestinian cause 'sick fucks' and bigots in this thread, so maybe you should put the mirror down and take a step back? Unlike you, I haven't called anyone a bigot...

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Response to shira (Original post)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:19 PM

45. More about the father Bassem Tamimi who Amnesty International has deemed prisoner of conscience

After jail sentence, Bassem Tamimi declared prisoner of conscience

"Bassem Tamimi has a long record of peaceful protest, and this court hearing showed that even the military prosecution has acknowledged he did not use or advocate violence at the demonstration," Amnesty's Mideast director Philip Luther said.

Tamimi is a well-known leader of non-violent protest in his village of Nabi Saleh, which holds weekly demonstrations against settlement.

He was released from jail in May after serving 13 months for taking part in demonstrations and solicitation to throw stones. The verdict was criticized by human rights groups and the EU foreign policy chief.

Amnesty noted that ‘Military Order 101’ in force in the West Bank requires all gatherings of 10 or more people, "for a political purpose or a matter that could be interpreted as political," to get permission from a military commander or face a maximum 10-year sentence.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=535083

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #45)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 06:59 PM

52. Cool. Amnesty supports father's child abuse too! And claims....

...that this sad excuse for a father - who incites others to throw stones at innocents - is just a peace activist who is now a poor prisoner of conscience.

Sick world we're living in these days.

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Response to shira (Reply #52)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 08:16 PM

61. ya BTW haven't you made that claim about Save the Children and CARE International in the past?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #61)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 09:05 PM

66. Well, when children's rights groups pretend Palestinian children...

...aren't being used as shields or militants by Palestinian adults abusing them, what are we to take from that?

Other than that they're politically partisan monsters?

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:25 AM

124. I thought that du'ers were better than this

Got any pictures of civil rights protesters fighting back? You don't condemn an entire people for an anecdote, unless you are a bigot.
'The Palestinians select and dress their children to look like regular blond European and American girls.'

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #124)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:27 PM

135. This isn't about civil rights protesters.

Did you watch the video?

What did you think of the show?

The BBC included a photo from that video in a recent report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20228970

All these "civil rights" protesters must be so proud of themselves.

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Response to shira (Reply #135)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:23 AM

144. the link gives the details of the fathers arrest and release which coincide with this OP

fancy that

I see your no longer wailing "but what about the children" well at least we're making progress of a sort I guess

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #144)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:47 AM

150. I was pointing to the fact that the BBC is in on this Pallywood stunt as well...

...passing it off as real, and not manufactured, news.

Are you proud of the girl and her parents' manufactured resistance to occupation via the media?

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:35 PM

141. One instance does not make a strategy.

Nor does it define an entire people.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #141)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 06:22 AM

146. It's not one instance. The soldiers were ordered previously not to react....

...to such provocation. It's happened before. When a camera is out, Pallywood begins, just as Pelsar wrote below.

As for past Palestinian child abuse, it's not just a tactic but an overall strategy...
http://palestinianchildabuse.com/

And you'd better believe all our nice western progressive friends from the ISM, Media, and NGO's have not only known about this but have gladly participated.

The true face of the Arab/Israel conflict...

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 12:53 AM

142. i was requested to comment......

nothing new here....since intifada I (not the beginning) The Palestinians and Israelis (me) would watch the news crews driving around, when they would get close to a particular spot the Palestinians would lite up the tires and start yelling and throwing stones. If the news crew didnt stop, they would just walk away....

Intifada II; children up front for the protest (i.e. similar to Intifada I), Part II, the Ak-47s would come out from the crowd (or behind) and start shooting at the soldiers. Israeli snipers would take them out, hence it didn't last too long.

Version III: sending the kids right up to the soldiers.....i must admit to a certain admiration for the soldiers for not pushing the kid away (the soldiers themselves are just 18/19yrs old), something that would be the most normal of reactions for when someone continually screams in their face. I personally like the guy who is similing at the girl....probably the best reaction, not taking them seriously. (worst thing you can do to a preteen...is smile when they are screaming at you -really pisses them off)

is this a 'one time situation?..nope. Its just the latest tactic used in the PR war. It too will die out once it proves useless. Like many of the tactics used, it produces the opposite reaction from the israeli public, (more of a disgust and pathetic use of children), but then we are not the audience. This is public theater and the goal is the image and the right image is that of the mean/abusive israeli soldier.

eventually they will get one..those soldiers are just people and some will lose their cool and push back or a kid will try to take the gun (crossing the red line) and be forcibly pushed back and no matter what kind of push, the right camera angle/photograph will do its job.

....goading armed soldiers is simply not a smart thing to do, eventually one of those parents/teens will get the reaction they want from the soldiers and the poor kid may pay for it with serious damage.

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Response to pelsar (Reply #142)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:18 AM

143. But most likely not when there's witnesses with a camera or camera's

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #143)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:51 AM

145. one forgets the cameras....

the soldiers main concentration is on the kids and if they will go to far an interfere with their present mission....the cameras though are there, one actually can't concentrate on them and to a certain degree forgets that they are there..they are not the primary mission for the soldiers, but are for the kids and their handlers

when there are no cameras, there are no kids getting this close.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #143)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:50 AM

151. No cameras, no kids. This only works when the goal is demonization...

The whole point is to get the audience (the rest of the world) hating Israel and the Jews who do something in reaction to poor Palestinians.

Legitimate child-abusing "non-violent" resistance, right?

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Response to shira (Original post)

Fri Nov 16, 2012, 04:45 AM

152. BBC forgets to edit Pallywood attempt...

Watch the miraculous recovery of this Palestinian victim of pure, unadulterated evil...

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:43 AM

153. Dead child cradled by Egypt's PM was killed by Hamas!

Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:16 AM - Edit history (1)

CNN takes it as a given that young Mahmoud Sadallah (Sadhala) was killed by an Israeli airstrike.


Only one problem: he was killed by a Hamas rocket that fell short in Gaza.


There is a lot of evidence for this. Read the New York Times' account of his death:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/11/dead-child-held-by-egypts-pm-was-killed.html



Also, see here:

Gaza Child Killed… By Hamas
http://honestreporting.com/gaza-child-killed-by-hamas/

The Sunday Telegraph reports (emphasis added):

But there were signs on Saturday that not all the Palestinian casualties have been the result of Israeli air strikes. The highly publicised death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel.

The child’s death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance. “The boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about,” he said, before promising to defend the Palestinian people.

But experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who visited the site on Saturday said they believed that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket.

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 07:46 AM

154. Poor soldiers. Jesus, this seems desparate, on your part.

You are so quick to disregard the true rage these children show.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #154)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:07 AM

157. Wow. You don't see what's going on in that video, do you?

The girl doesn't start raging until she knows the cameras are on her. Later on, you see others pushing the kids into the soldiers. It may be tough for you to stomach, but what you're watching is child abuse from Western Leftists and Palestinian protesters. An effort to provoke soldiers into some reaction that is caught on camera with the images later distributed worldwide in order to demonize and dehumanize Israelis. It's happened many times in the past.

For more, see here:
http://palestinianchildabuse.com/

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Response to shira (Reply #157)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:39 AM

158. I am going to put you and you obvious propaganda on ignore.

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sun Nov 18, 2012, 09:14 AM

159. Hamas Recycles Pictures of Syrian Dead....and claims them as Palestinian dead

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sat Jun 8, 2013, 06:59 AM

160. Arafat to children: Death as Child-Martyr is greatest message" to the world

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Response to shira (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:29 AM

161. EU diplomats now doing Pallywood

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/09/video-french-diplomat-punching-idf.html#disqus_thread

And the media (google the incident) is all-in on the fun (goading, setting up Jews for bad publicity). It's a sport!

Ugly stuff. Imagine the media doing this to any other minority group.

And some people wonder why there are those who don't immediately believe every nasty rumor or story against Israel coming out of the media...





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