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Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:16 AM

A lesson in remembering that Israel could learn from Australia

Even in Sydney's well-to-do neighborhoods, there are people who make sure to show their appreciation for the 'original custodians of this land.'

By Akiva Eldar | Oct.30, 2012 | 4:15 AM |


SYDNEY - On Sunday afternoon, after the end of the event at the local community center, it was hard to find a table at any of the cafes scattered along the length of Watsons Bay, one of Sydney's countless escapist venues. Parties, villas, cars, yachts and money (primarily money) are the favorite topics of conversation of the residents of the eastern suburbs that overlook white-sailed boats in their berths.

What do these privileged folks have to do with any troublesome, heretical thoughts about the sins of their forebears who came from faraway places? The teeth of the tanned young men zipping along in Mercedes convertibles seated beside smiling, blonde young women are as a white as can be. No wonder that young Israelis fed up with war and misgivings in a hard country to live in are attracted to this distant place.

However, at the modest little community center nearby, we had an opportunity to meet a different Australia, the one that sparks jealousy. Several dozen people crowded around simple wooden stalls displaying a selection of items from the culture of the aborigines, the original inhabitants of the area. A volunteer offered pins and small flags showing appreciation for the community, half of whose 500,000 members (the ones not wiped out by the whites and their alcohol) live in the greater Sydney area.

<snip>

Who said Iran and Israel don't have any political common denominator? Look, both of them voted a week ago to elect Australia a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. Both of them helped make it so that over the next two years, Canberra will join the list of places eagerly courted by the two enemies. Even so, they both criticized the investment of $25 million in the campaign to join the exclusive diplomatic club. The budget was designated primarily for courting African and Arab countries.

Whatever Iran's reasons for supporting Australia, Israel certainly had a good reason to support such a step: Rarely do Australian governments disagree with their American friends when it comes to votes on Middle East affairs. An Australian commentator wrote in recent days that membership in the Security Council obligates the Canberra government to break away from Washington, including on the matter of the war in Afghanistan.

During the two-year tenure of the Australian ambassador at the UN, he may have to vote in favor (or against? ) stiffening the sanctions against Iran. If the Palestinians decide to submit their request to upgrade their status to the Security Council, it is possible that Australia, which supports the establishment of a Palestinian state (and opposes the settlements ), will face a tough dilemma: Should it deny its position and present itself to the whole world as the Americans' poodle, or should it display its independence and leave its big brother alone in the fight

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/a-lesson-in-remembering-that-israel-could-learn-from-australia.premium-1.473122

69 replies, 4760 views

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Reply A lesson in remembering that Israel could learn from Australia (Original post)
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 OP
King_David Oct 2012 #1
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #2
bemildred Oct 2012 #11
shaayecanaan Oct 2012 #18
bemildred Oct 2012 #20
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #30
King_David Oct 2012 #37
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #51
oberliner Oct 2012 #52
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #55
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #56
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #61
oberliner Nov 2012 #58
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #60
oberliner Nov 2012 #63
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #69
King_David Oct 2012 #53
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #54
King_David Nov 2012 #57
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #59
King_David Nov 2012 #64
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #67
King_David Nov 2012 #68
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #66
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #3
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #4
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #5
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #6
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #7
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #8
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #9
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #10
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #13
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #14
aquart Oct 2012 #12
bemildred Oct 2012 #15
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #16
bemildred Oct 2012 #17
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #19
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #21
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #23
TomClash Oct 2012 #31
bemildred Oct 2012 #22
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #24
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #25
bemildred Oct 2012 #26
holdencaufield Oct 2012 #27
aranthus Oct 2012 #28
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #40
aranthus Oct 2012 #46
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #49
Mosby Nov 2012 #62
Violet_Crumble Nov 2012 #65
oberliner Oct 2012 #29
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #32
King_David Oct 2012 #33
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #34
King_David Oct 2012 #35
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #36
oberliner Oct 2012 #38
azurnoir Oct 2012 #41
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #43
oberliner Oct 2012 #45
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #47
oberliner Oct 2012 #44
azurnoir Oct 2012 #42
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #39
Ken Burch Oct 2012 #48
Violet_Crumble Oct 2012 #50

Response to Violet_Crumble (Original post)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:41 AM

1. In my opinion Australia needs to learn a lot if lessons from

other countries such as Canada. Especially in the area of tolerance .

(This happened in a government office )

For example :


Jewish Australian wins compensation over office anti-Semitism
Review officer for Australian government workers' compensation insurer finds it ‘likely’ that abuse was a significant factor in Stephen Strelecky’s developing a psychological condition.
By JTA | Sep.24, 2012 | 6:04 PM

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/jewish-australian-wins-compensation-over-office-anti-semitism-1.466611

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Response to King_David (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:46 AM

2. Then you know nothing about Australia...

I'm guessing you said that to try to divert attention away from Israel.

And I'm at a total loss as to why yr using an example of a successful compensation case as something for you to complain about, or what that has to do with tolerance towards indigenous Australians...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:27 AM

11. Canada has nothing to lecture Australia about.

When it comes to treatment of its indigenous peoples.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #11)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:00 AM

18. Admittedly, Australia is rather ill-equipped in that area also (nt)

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #18)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:06 AM

20. The legacy of the British Empire lives on in all of us.

May it soon perish forever. I mean i like British culture and its descendants, but the racism and hide-bound economic class system - one wants to use the phrase "caste system", but it's not quite that bad - that we need to lose, and soon. It has already cost us far too much, not to mention the people we pretend to govern.

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Response to King_David (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 06:53 PM

30. This would be the Canada where a World War II-era immigration official...

...when asked what would be an ACCEPTABLE number of Jewish refugees that could be admitted to that country(at a time when Hitler's vile deeds were already known to all), said "Zero would be too many"?

Yeah...THAT's one tolerant country.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #30)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:25 PM

37. Please try keep up ...

We were talking present day Canada vs Australia 2012.

The articles posted were from a few days ago .

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Response to King_David (Reply #37)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 04:22 PM

51. The vast majority of Australia's crimes against Aborigines took place decades ago

BEFORE the Canadian official said what he said(and before his country's government helped CAUSE the Holocaust, as the U.S. helped cause it, by barring almost all Jewish refugees from entry-Australia, by contrast, actually took a fair amount of them).

Australia has admitted that everything it ever did to the Aborigines was wrong. Canada still hasn't come

The ONLY reason you are saying Canada is better than Australia on Aboriginal issues is because Canada has an right-wing extremist government(a government that's also anti-worker, anti-poor, anti-woman and anti-gay, but you give them a pass on all of that, of course)which defends the Occupation AND the illegal West Bank settlements with more fervor than your hero Bibi does(and which equates any expression of compassion towards Palestinians with antisemitism). That's the dirty secret of the "pro-Israel" thing, King...it's about letting the countries that betrayed the Jews(and others who were in danger) when it really mattered and which still won't admit they were wrong to do that buy themselves indulgences for their political and moral sins.

Not only is Canada not being run by a party that cares about First Nations people, that government is committed to a program of making life harder for those people by cutting subsudies, by reducing the meager social benefits and educational opportunities it offers to FN people now in exchange for stealing their land, and is trying to get rid of fishing treaties so that FN people lose their traditional food supplies to white fishermen in places like British Columbia.

Canada's government doesn't give a damn about FN people, and you're only invoking them here because they unquestioningly back the status quo in the West Bank while demonizing anyone who questions it, like such as decent, progressive humanely universalist religious groups like Kairos.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #51)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 05:35 PM

52. I can tell you racial prejudice in Australia is real

I AM AN AUSSIE, so from that starting point you can frame what I am about to say.

I have lived and worked in many countries, am married to a Papua New Guinean lady and was brought up in a 1960's western cultural tradition.

Perhaps, with that background, I can see some things others cannot.

As a schoolkid, I lived through UK prejudice against Aussies. They used to stand around me in the schoolyard and poke me in the ribs and say "speak Kranz!".

They would then fall about laughing when I said 'you pathetic Pommy bastards' or some such phrase with a rich Ocker accent that I learnt to drop quite quickly.

But I did manage to get in a few apt quips about the Poms performance at cricket and tennis at the time - especially when Rosewall beat the Old Dart contender in 1970, which we were allowed to watch on the only TV in the school.

I have seen what appears to be racism from both Highlanders and Coastal people in PNG.

‘Never trust the Motu', said my Hagen taxi driver. 'Never trust the Highlanders', said my Hanuabada friend.

But I am sad to say racism against people because of their colour or ethnic background is very apparent in parts of Australia.

http://asopa.typepad.com/asopa_people/2012/01/i-can-tell-you-racial-prejudice-in-australia-is-real.html

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Response to oberliner (Reply #52)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 02:22 AM

55. I didn't know you were Australian, for the record.

If you are, you should know perfectly well that someone like Violet would have joined in the protests against what was done to Aborigines(British prejudice against Australians isn't racial, it's a vestige of colonialism) and that, while Australia hasn't achieved racial utopia as yet(no other country has either, including Israel or the MegaTory Canada the other poster defends) it has made a massive effort, equal to that of any other country, to try to rectify the problem.

You should also know that the Australian Left can't fairly be accused of double standards on racism in Australia vs racism in the I/P situation.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #55)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 02:51 AM

56. Oberliner isn't Australian. He was quoting from the blog article in the subject line...

I just read the article and agreed with what that guy said. I'm at a loss as to what point Oberliner's trying to make, as no-one's said there isn't racism in Australia. That would be every bit as silly as someone trying to make out that racism isn't a problem in Israel. The blog guy mentioned some of it, and there's also things like the Cronulla riots, the hatred of 'boat people' stirred up by the RW here, as well as the very recent attempts by a group of anti-Muslim bigots to stop a Mosque being built in my city. http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/group-takes-mosque-fight-to-court-20120816-24bs7.html

Reconciliation is at a higher and official level. Hopefully what steps get taken from there by the govt and leaders of the community trickle down to the areas that really need to purge themselves of racism. It's disappointing to see the very negative responses to reconciliation here at DU, and I hope those who reacted negatively do end up taking an honest interest in how things have moved along here...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #56)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 12:59 PM

61. Thanks for the clarification.

n/t.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #55)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 10:09 AM

58. Did you not click on the link?

The piece was written by someone from Australia.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #58)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 12:58 PM

60. Sorry, I thought you said YOU were Australian.

No, I hadn't clicked on the link.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #60)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 02:17 PM

63. No - just posted the title of the piece as the subject

Sorry for the confusion. I am American.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #63)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 09:03 PM

69. OK, I've now clicked on the link.

However, nobody here was saying that Australia was now FREE of any type of prejudice-just that it had taken a major step towards reconciliation. OK?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #51)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 05:39 PM

53. ''The ONLY reason you are saying Canada is better than Australia on Aboriginal issues ''

I said no such thing.


Please direct me to this post .

No you can not ?

Thought so...

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Response to King_David (Reply #53)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 02:17 AM

54. You said Australia has a lot to learn from Canada on tolerance.

And you implied in that that that included FN issues.

If you didn't mean that, it was hard to tell.

There's no meaningful difference between the way Canada and Australia deal with antisemitism, as far as that goes...Australia is just as tough on that as Canada is...it's that Australia doesn't unquestioningly support everything the Israeli government does.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #54)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 07:52 AM

57. So you couldn't point to my post where I said things that you claimed?

Thought so ..

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Response to King_David (Reply #57)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 12:55 PM

59. It was post #1...and I figured you'd still remember it.

The truth is, Australia is just as strong on fighting antisemitism and all other forms of prejudice as Canada is.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #59)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 02:38 PM

64. If you did not get caught again , fabricating what a poster has said,

Then please point out to me and everyone where in post 1 I said anything whatsoever to do with Australia's treatment of her indigenous people .

You can not ... Can you?

You have a bad habit of fabricating thought and speech to almost all posters that disagree with you... Often!!



Do you find that it lends you credibility ??

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Response to King_David (Reply #64)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 04:34 PM

67. I didn't fabricate.

The question of tolerance applies to all groups...and we were discussing aborigines, so your remarks would have applied to FN people in the context.

You said what you said and i accurately described it.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #67)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 05:48 PM

68. oki doki then, the lesson to learn is that the

Best take home message is not assume or invent what a poster is saying ...applies to all in this forum.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #59)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 03:44 PM

66. That post was attacking Australia for being intolerant at the governmental level...

I did ask the poster what it had to do with the OP, seeing it was an article about a tribunal awarding compensation to someone for pain and suffering caused to them from bigoted comments aimed at them, but they didn't bother answering...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Original post)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:47 AM

3. Given that Australia ...

 

... practiced government sanctioned racial discrimination from the day of its founding until as recently as 1975 AND they continue to hold in asylum seekers, adults and minors, in indiscriminate detention, I'm not sure Australia is in the position to be offering themselves up as a shining moral example.

Especially given the fact that Israel is currently at war against multiple foes and Australia hasn't seen a shot fired in anger since 1942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #3)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:53 AM

4. But unlike Israel, Australia remembers its past...

If you'd read the OP, you'd have noticed that Australia's not offering itself up as a shining moral example, and anyone suggesting it is needs to read more carefully before commenting. The point is that Australia as a country that's had a dark history could give Israel some pointers when it comes to reconciliation, which despite what some seem to think, will involve the goodwill of both Palestinians and Israelis. Yr reaction to that is a bit on the strange side...


Anyway, Australia remembers and acknowledges its past treatment of Aboriginal Australians and there's been reconcilation and a national apology. I wonder what problem you have with that?

http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/reconciliation

http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/our-people/apology-to-australias-indigenous-peoples

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:03 AM

5. In point of fact ...

 

... the former PM's apology to the indigenous nations wasn't for a history discrimination and land evictions but specifically for the practise of taking aboriginal children of mixed race from their indigenous families to be raised by whites known as "stolen generations".

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #5)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:08 AM

6. I'm not sure why you think the acts of the past have to be the same...

It doesn't make a difference. Of course the discrimination varies in nature between the countries. The fact is that Australia has acknowledged the wrongdoings of its past, and it's a starting point towards reconcilation. It's the sort of thing that needs to happen for a country to mature. Israel and the Palestinians aren't anywhere near that point yet, but the example of Australia is one that they'd do well to look at, imo...

on edit: forgot to mention that when it comes to evictions from land, that happened on a scale far beyond anything in the West Bank, and that wrong's gone a long way towards being righted in this High Court decision. It;s Wikipedia, but it's accurate and gives a good summary of all that stuff...

'Mabo v Queensland (No 2) (commonly known as Mabo) was a landmark High Court of Australia decision recognising native title in Australia for the first time. The High Court rejected the doctrine of terra nullius, in favour of the common law doctrine of aboriginal title, and overruled Milirrpum v Nabalco Pty Ltd (1971), a contrary decision of the Supreme Court of the Northern Territory.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabo_v_Queensland

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #6)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:14 AM

7. And I'm absolutely certain ...

 

... that when Hamas and Fatah finally renounce their goal of Israel's destruction and reject the methodology of armed struggle then Israel will be very forthcoming with conciliatory messages.

However, given the continued belligerency of the Palestinian Arabs and other states in the region, a conciliatory message is premature at best.

First make peace, then make friends.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #7)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:22 AM

8. How could I have forgotten that in yr version of things, Israel holds no responsibility...

Fatah doesn't have a goal of destroying Israel, and even if Hamas still did, they can't actually carry it out. As for armed struggle against an occupying military, it'd help if Israel went a way in that and removed their military and settlers from the West Bank and didn't oppose moves to create a Palestinian state. See? It's not one-sided thing you portray it as, and while Israel thinks that it's blameless and has no responsibility in getting to the point where reconciliation can happen. Both sides need to do things, not just one..

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #8)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:24 AM

9. And in your version ...

 

... Israel holds ALL responsibility.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #9)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:27 AM

10. My version's the one where I've said consistently that both sides hold responsibility...

Why, what do you know! I only just said it a post or so ago. Do I need to repost it and bold the bit where I talked about both sides needing to take responsibility when it comes to reconiciliation?

btw, when someone points out to you that habit you have of holding only the Palestinians responsible, going 'but you dooo it tooo with that bunch!!!' isn't an effective counter. All it does is show that you admit you do indeed only blame one side, but seem to think it's okay to do that because yr claiming someone else does it with the other side.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #10)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:29 AM

13. Ceasar can quote Cato to his purpose ...

 

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #13)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:32 AM

14. That's lovely and all, but I'm telling you what I've always said. Feel free to pretend otherwise...

Do you understand? I'm telling you what I've said and have said since I arrived at DU back in 2002. If you want to ignore it and invent some alternate reality, then there's nothing I can do to stop you, but I will be there to point out that yr not giving a true representation of what I've said...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Original post)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:28 AM

12. You surpass youself.

And I'm truly tickled by your white supremicist noblesse oblige toward the Palestinians.

Brits have poodles. Americans have pitbulls.

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Response to aquart (Reply #12)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:40 AM

15. Bah, we have grizzlies, wolves, giant sloths:

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Response to bemildred (Reply #15)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:45 AM

16. I can't work out who she's calling a white supremacist. Me or Akiva Eldar...

Or maybe it was just one of those hit and run sprays that goes for as many targets as possible in as short a time as possible...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #16)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:56 AM

17. Oh it's you I think.

Though the complaint is probably better aimed at Eidar, and is not entirely off point for that matter; but I think the real source of annoyance is that Australia is not still stuck in the middle of it's war with its indigenes, who were not much of a "threat" to begin with, unlike Israel, which is in the middle of the most contentious real estate on the planet, and is not doing so well.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #17)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:02 AM

19. I'm scoring the big wins with the accusations of evil this week...

First I was told I was merely a supporter of Iran and a Dems hater, but the whole white supremacist thing is really lifting the bar higher, and building me up into a far more interesting person than I could ever be in real life...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #19)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:06 AM

21. "The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose...

 

... the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."

-- The Rabbi

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #21)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:14 AM

23. Well, you know just what to do if someone ever calls you a horse three times...

I doubt anyone would be stupid or dishonest enough to accuse me of being a white supremacist and supporter of Iran three times

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #23)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 06:55 PM

31. Beware

You are playing in a sandbox with an insane child. The Nakba never happened, don't you know.

I applaud Australia for dealing with its past. Israel can't even deal with its present.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #19)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:10 AM

22. Well, I'm in a good mood today, going out of town, by myself, to do what I damn please.

So I'm not going to dig myself any deeper here today.

So I'll just add this:

"Such euphemisms illustrate one major function of language, which is to keep reality at bay." – John Carey "Eyewitness to History" Introduction

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Response to bemildred (Reply #22)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:17 AM

24. Have yrself a fun time. I don't get much me-time anymore...

I'm going to sit here collecting me more evil titles. Well, I'll wait for them to find me coz I'm heading off to bed....

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Response to bemildred (Reply #22)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:19 AM

25. I hope you're going to town strapped.

 

"It pisses off all the right people" -- Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #25)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:22 AM

26. Where I go there are no people.

I am in 3rd stage election burnout, the die seem cast, and I've got to recuperate.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #26)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 09:42 AM

27. It ain't over 'till it's over ... Yogi Berra

 

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Original post)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 01:11 PM

28. Eldar should know better.

I admit that I haven't read the entire article, since I'm not a subscriber. However, I would bet that he doesn't acknowledge any of the major differences between Australia and Israel. For instance.

1. Jews are the indigenous people of Israel (I know the Palestinians claim that too, but but they are not. Despite having been there for almost 1,500 years, they are in the relative position of the invader). The whites in Australia obviously are not.

2. The Jewish re-settlers of Israel bought land. The Australians just took it.

3. The Jews didn't forcibly take anything until after the Arabs tried to take the homes and land that the Jews had purchased. The English came with the intent to conquer.

4. There is a long history of racism in Australia. Despite all the lies told about Zionism, it isn't racist.

5. The Palestinians started and are continuing a war against Israel's very existence. Not so the Aborigines.

6. Despite the Palestinian war against the Jews, there is a vibrant discussion in Israel about what has happened to the Palestinians, and Israel's relative responsibility for the situation. The fact that the mainstream doesn't agree with Eldar about what that history is doesn't mean that they are ignoring it.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #28)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 11:38 PM

40. I don't subscribe either but can read the article

How you do it is register at haaretz and you can read ten articles a month. It's better than nothing and it's free.. I'd be interested to hear yr thoughts after you've read it.
Btw, of course there's major differences between Israel and Australia. Ones big and not prime real estate while the others in a crap area that everyone wants to argue about the ownership of. We've argued before about most if not all of what you listed as differences so well have to keep on agreeing to disagree. The thing is there's going to be a time in the future when reconciliation will be high on the agenda and theyd do far worse than looking at how it works here.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #40)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 12:08 PM

46. How to achieve reconcilliation when the two sides can't agree on the truth?

At least in Australia it was pretty clear to both sides what the English had done. In Israel there is a real disconnect between what each side believes happened.

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Response to aranthus (Reply #46)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 03:32 PM

49. That's a massive hurdle...

They're going to have to get to that point, even if it's a grudging general sort of feeling they're in the same ballpark, before there's any reconiciliation...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #49)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 01:28 PM

62. are palestinians interested in reconciliation?

I'm not very confident that a majority of Palestinians are interested in reconciliation. The notion that all of Israel is occupied Palestinian land seems to be gaining acceptance by more and more Palestinians and Arabs.

If Abbas were to publicly state that he thinks Jews are part of the middle eastern tapestry of cultures going back thousands of years and that in particular Jews have a long standing connection to J-lem and Israel it would be a great first step towards reconciliation. Sadly I don't see this happening any time soon.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #62)

Thu Nov 1, 2012, 03:40 PM

65. Probably no more than Israelis are...

I'm not very confident that a majority of either people are interested in reconciliation. They're nowhere near that point yet. When that time comes, BOTH parties have to make public statements, not just one. The insistence by many 'supporters' of Israel that it's the Palestinians who have to make the moves is kind of ridiculous, seeing as how they're the people who have been occupied by Israel and are by far the weaker party in the conflict...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Original post)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 06:20 PM

29. List of massacres of Indigenous Australians

For fans of Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians

But, hey, at least the white folks there, they remember it - so that's good.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #29)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 06:56 PM

32. All of which Violet has almost certainly spent many hours denouncing,

along with EVERYONE ELSE ON THE AUSTRALIAN LEFT!

Cheap shot to imply that she doesn't care about those. You owe her an apology.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #32)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:11 PM

33. Why on earth would Oberliner apologize ?

That's absurd !

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Response to King_David (Reply #33)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:26 PM

34. For falsely implying that Violet holds Israel to a higher standard than her own country.

For insinuating that Violet cares more about Palestinians than about what was done to Aborigines.

It's bullshit and he knows it. And so do you. The reason the world knows about what happened to the Aborigines is that the Australian left helped lead the fight to end such abuses and compensate for them.

It's a knowingly false accusation of a double standard.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #34)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 07:39 PM

35. Again with the accusation that a DU member said things he did not

Unbelievable !

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Response to King_David (Reply #35)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:02 PM

36. That was the whole point of posting that link.

Violet started this thread, so obviously it was an attempt to smear her. And it's not even a valid accusation against Australia as a country, because Australians themselves were the ones who raised the issue of the injustice done by their ancestors(including recent ones)towards aborigines.

There was NO double standard, and oberliner knew it.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #36)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 08:28 PM

38. I apologize for linking to Wikiedpia

I do try to avoid it but the site does seem to have some avid fans.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #38)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 12:30 AM

41. yes it does

but if one wants to be transparent one should also post the last edit date along with they're link wiki changes quite frequently in the case of your link that edit date is

This page was last modified on 30 October 2012 at 07:51.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians

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Response to oberliner (Reply #38)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 01:48 AM

43. The Wikipedia part wasn't the point.

It goes without saying that Violet and everybody ELSE on the Australian Left had already denounced everything the Australian government had ever done to Aborigines. There was no double standard, neither Violet nor anybody else on the Aussie Left let the abuses against Aborigines go ignored, none of them had ever Israel to a higher standard re: Palestinians than they held their country to re: Aborigines and you damn well knew it before you posted that.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #43)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 07:05 AM

45. I think you are seeing things that aren't there

There are a lot of people who don't know much about Australia on this forum. As I would imagine those on the Australia forum might have some members who don't know much about Israel. A simple link to some basic information can be informative. Wikipedia is relatively accepted as "neutral" (though that's another issue altogether), so it seemed a reasonable choice.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #45)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 02:50 PM

47. Yes, those things happened in Australia(and in many other places, such as THIS country)

But when you post something like that in a thread like this, you at least look as if you're implying that Australians who criticize what the Israeli government has done to Palestinians have ignored those acts(in fact, virtually any Australian who takes a critical stance towards the Occupation has also been outspoken about the injustices done towards the Aborigines, as virtually any American who has spoken out on the I/P issue has also been an activist in solidarity with Native Americans).

Will you at least be willing to admit that there wasn't actually a double standard here at all? That Australians were NOT being harder on Israel then they were on their own country?

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Response to King_David (Reply #35)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 06:39 AM

44. Thanks for intervening

I'm at a loss here.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #32)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 12:35 AM

42. never mind the last listed incident was almost a century ago

It was more a "just sayin' is all" type thing, Oberliner likes to make sure we're well informed

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Response to oberliner (Reply #29)

Tue Oct 30, 2012, 10:46 PM

39. And what does that have to do with the OP?

Am I missing something? I wasn't aware that anyone denies Australia's dark history, so I'm not sure what yr point is.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #39)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 02:52 PM

48. It sounded to me like a passive-aggressive attempt to drag in the "double standards" canard

If it wasn't, it sure as hell read that way(there was no way to bring "what about Sri Lanka?" into this thread, I guess).

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #48)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 03:36 PM

50. It was disappointing to see such a negative reaction to mentioning reconciliation...

Last edited Thu Nov 1, 2012, 02:59 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm sure Oberliner will return and answer the question I asked him about how he thinks what he said had anything to do with the OP or with reconciliation in Australia.

on edit: Looks like it's a good thing I can admit when I'm wrong. I was wrong about that, it looks like

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