Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumNetanyahu Blasts UN's Ban: Your Remarks Are A Tailwind For Terror
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accused UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday of supporting Palestinian terrorism.
“It is human nature to react to occupation, which often serves as a potent incubator of hate and extremism,” Ban had told a Security Council meeting in New York.
In what became a war of words, Netanyahu shot back: “The secretary-general’s remarks provide a tailwind for terrorism. There is no justification for terrorism. Those Palestinians who murder do not want to build a state, they want to destroy a state and they say this openly.”
Ban made his remarks on the same day that terrorist victim Shlomit Krigman, 23, was buried in Jerusalem. The young woman was fatally stabbed on Monday evening by two Palestinian terrorists.
MORE...
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/UN-chief-Ban-condemns-terror-wave-but-says-it-is-human-nature-to-react-to-occupation-442846
Ban Ki-moon is spot on with his comment regarding occupation.
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shira
(30,109 posts)
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Stating that the murder of a mother of 6 or that a lethal attack on a pregnant women is a "natural response to occupation" is incitement to more terror.
Just as vile, repulsive, ugly & wrong-headed as saying the Dawabshe & Abu Khdeir murders were a natural response to 100 years of unrelenting Palestinian terror against Jews.
It's excusing and justifying the murder of innocents.
THAT is incitement.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)of the current violence in Israel and the occupied territories.
Could you explain why you think so in less heated language so that I could understand?
shira
(30,109 posts)Suppose Ban Ki Moon were to explain the causes of the Dawabshe and Abu Khdeir murders as a natural response to Palestinians attacking Jews for the past 100 years. Just human nature...
What would you think about that?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Ban Ki-moon was right - certain conditions cause certain effects, in this case it's the occupation that causes the occupied to react violently. It's not a justification, it's an explanation.
Netanyahu and some other f**kwits in Israel are barking up the wrong tree, and it's sad to see how little they understand about the problems they have caused.
shira
(30,109 posts)There are people oppressed 100x worse around the world......folks who are occupied in Cyprus, Kurdistan, Tibet, Quebec & W.Sahara but that doesn't cause folks to lose their minds and start stabbing, running over, or blowing up pregnant women, kids, or elderly.
Daily incitement is the cause. The same incitement which led to terror attacks on Jews in Palestine, pre-1948. Before occupation, settlements, and "desperation". Remember UNRWA incitement on Facebook?
Explaining this insanity as just a natural reaction - when it's not natural anywhere else - is just giving a green light for more of the same.
How would you respond to someone merely explaining the cause of the Dawabshe & Abu Khdeir murder being a century of Palestinian terror against Jews - therefore the murders were just a natural reaction by desperate, frustrated people?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Suppose the reality is that the Abu Khder & Dawabshe murders can be explained as natural reactions by genuinely frustrated yet desperate people.
Remember UNRWA Facebook incitement? Who's denying reality?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....and women 5 months pregnant? Run over or ram infants with cars....
Because, occupation? Natural response?
If so - the brutal murders of Abu Khdeir and the Dewabshes can be explained away & justified as natural responses to 100 years of Palestinian terror.
Ban Ki Moon couldn't possibly be more wrong - and neither could like minded enablers of terror.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Making an exception for you, this one time.
shira
(30,109 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)I mean, if you can't defend Moon and you know he's wrong - why call Bibi out for that?
Besides the fact Bibi is evil incarnate, it appears he's right on this one.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)1/26/2016
The United Nations Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, said today that 'the terror wave is a natural response to the occupation.'
There are millions of people in the world whose lives are harder than those of the Palestinians. In Africa, in Asia, in the Middle East. There are hundreds of millions of people in the world for whom the UN didn't create a special body and to whom the UN didn't send billions of dollars (and then stood to one side while a corrupt government stole it).
For some reason those people don't think there is anything, anything at all, which gives them license to take a knife and stab a mother of six. To take a knife and stab a woman who is five months pregnant. To take a knife and stab a wonderful 23 year old who had never harmed anyone.
Terrorism against innocent civilians can not be justified, no-one should provide excuses for it. No-one, especially not the UN Secretary General, should say that terrorism is the result of something. Terrorism against innocent civilians is the result of nothing except the murderous insanity of the perpetrators.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts).....in response to occupation?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)outside of that not playing I agree with what Ban has said
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts).....then what was he referring to in the context of his statement?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Just deflections, smoke and mirrors.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)I'd wait at least a week between "do you approve of kill on sight?" (in response to two terrorists attacking civilians and attempting to bomb a grocery store) and accusing anyone else of excess hyperbole.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and oh it was not a direct response to thesuspects as you purport, is that why you're not posting any link?
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)They aren't "suspects" because it isn't criminal activity (nor was there any question of guilt) - it's terrorism. Nor have I seen any evidence that they were "no longer a threat".
I can't make this any simpler. You shoot terrorists who stab civilians and try to bomb grocery stores. You don't try to subdue them (if for no other reason than you don't know that they aren't wearing a suicide explosive). If an Israeli Jew shows up at a grocery store in Gaza and stabs a couple women and throws a grenade into the store - it's entirely appropriate for local security to shoot her.
and oh it was not a direct response to thesuspects as you purport,
It was in direct response to a post about the OP. It was clear that the two women knew they were going to die (for the reason given above) and do the most possible damage. The might as well be wearing suicide vests.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=123896
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but thanks for finally responding you do believe in extrajudicial killing it seems
I guess innocent until proven guilty does not apply in your mind
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)One would think that you would check that if you were going to provide a link - and that you would have some rational reason to think that in that context it wouldn't be hyperbole (hint - you don't).
but thanks for finally responding you do believe in extrajudicial killing it seems
Thanks for proving that you're so aware of the illogic of your positions that you can only debate straw men. The shooting of a terrorist in the act of attack is not an "extrajudicial killing". The right of self defense has always been recognized to extend to the defense of others. פיקוח נפש
I guess innocent until proven guilty does not apply in your mind
You cannot possibly be so divorced from reality... can you? There is no "innocent until proven guilty" when you're in the process of killing someone and trying to kill others. It's ridiculous to claim that, for instance, a police officer cannot return fire because it hasn't been proven in a court of law that the other guy is shooting at him.
You've stretched the bounds of reality past the breaking point... a perfect example of hyperbole.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)asthe rest is simply an attempt to distract by using some hyperbole of your own
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)You're just embarrassing yourself.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I confused the 2 of you but your insults are noted I always feel those are supposed distract or intimidate but they do neither they only tell me something about the person hurling them
King_David
(14,851 posts)You just looking silly....nobody here , even on the 'other side' is even buying into or supporting that ridiculousness.....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and no one from the other side has said anything there are 3 people who seem to love a pile on, but other than that nothing
oh and here's the link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=123914
I asked if you approved of kill on sight, a question meant as a general one and referencing extrajudicial killing
King_David
(14,851 posts)And some people actually think they know what is going on in this conflict. Delusions.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"Some say the two sides are entrenched in their respective positions. I say that we must not succumb to passivity, resignation or hopelessness that a comprehensive resolution of the conflict is not achievable.
A lasting agreement will require difficult compromises by both the Israeli and Palestinian leaders."
shira
(30,109 posts)
Israeli
(4,148 posts)Gideon Levy Jan 27, 2016
The gloomy, cold hall seethed with repressed anger, and the somber faces of the dozens of men sitting there clearly expressed it. This week there was mourning in the remote Palestinian village of Al-Karmil in the hills south of Hebron, after the killing of Rukaiya Abu Eid, a girl not yet 14 years old. She was killed by a guard she tried to stab at the entrance to the settlement of Anatot. On Israeli media she was termed “a 13 year-old terrorist” without the batting of an eyelid.
The grieving father refused to talk to us at first. “What do I have to talk about with the Israelis who killed my daughter?” It snowed on the way there and there was a mist around the mourning hall. Inside there was fury and cold. After a while the atmosphere became somewhat relaxed and the father, Eid, agreed to talk. He pinned his daughter’s desperate act on the reality of life under the occupation. “Every little child sees the crimes,” he said.
In Israel they chose to adopt the girl’s mother’s version, according to which Rukaiya left the house with a knife after a fight with her sister. In Israel they liked this explanation, involving no occupation or other such nonsense. A family quarrel. We had no hand in the unfolding of events. Even the notion that every Palestinian knows that if she only ventures out with knife in hand she’ll be shot to death by Israelis does not shock anyone here.
The dozens of Palestinian male and female youths who set out over the last few months to kill Israelis did not do so “because they’re Jews,” as Israel’s propaganda likes to portray it, with a (routinely) broad hint about the Holocaust and the persecution of Jews.
They set out to stab or run people over by car because they’re conquerors. They set out to kill their conquerors. They chose violence as a means of resisting a more pernicious violence, that of the occupation. They wanted to hurt Israelis, especially soldiers and settlers, because of the occupation, not because they’re Jewish. Their Jewishness has nothing to do with it.
For the Palestinians, there’s no difference between a soldier who’s Jewish, Druze or Bedouin and a settler from the tribe of Menashe.
The attempt to present any violent Palestinian resistance as persecution of Jews because they’re Jewish is obviously meant to mobilize the world’s sympathy for the ultimate victim, the one and only, the Jew, while concealing the true victim in the story of Israel’s occupation. The conqueror as victim, and the only victim at that, in a total distortion of reality. This is also intended for internal purposes: Israelis like the role of victim. It unites them, conceals the Palestinians’ true motives, blurs the guilt and rids Israel of its responsibility.
One doesn’t have to justify Palestinian terror to understand this. Nearly every visit to a grieving Palestinian home portrays the same picture. For many years I’ve been amazed at how an Israeli journalist is received there, with no one knowing who he is and who he represents, only hours after the funeral. How would a Palestinian journalist be received in the house of Jewish mourners after a Palestinian terror attack?
The words repeat themselves: “We don’t hate Jews, we hate the occupation.” Sometimes they’ll say, “We hate the government,” and in extreme cases, “We hate the Zionists”. Not the Jews. Forget anti-Semitism and hatred of Jews. Remember the occupation. In most cases, that of 1967, sometimes that of 1948, especially in refugee camps.
The thought that dozens of Palestinians have already set out to commit spontaneous acts of stabbing or car-ramming, with hundreds, maybe thousands or tens of thousands considering doing the same, should have provoked some thinking in Israel. Not the thinking of a victim who is being attacked again, but a consideration of what drives desperate children and adults to do this, in the knowledge that their chances of survival are slim.
But this might only raise questions that Israelis run away from as is from a fire. Little Rukaiya wanted to commit suicide because of her sister, or just to kill Jews because they’re Jews. There’s no other possible explanation.
Gideon Levy
Haaretz Correspondent
Source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.699906
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Against "conquerers" like babies and pregnant women in the occupations of N.Cyprus, Tibet, W.Sahara, Quebec, Kurdistan....?
And why did all this aggression vs. Jews occur prior to 1948, before the excuse of occupation?
Gideon Levy is a fraud.
Israeli
(4,148 posts)..........if you say so .
And Amos Oz and David Grossman also " fraud " ?
I thought you respected both ....or so you said ....there again you also said you would vote Meretz if you could 
shira
(30,109 posts)Oz and Grossman don't excuse or justify terror attacks on Jews.
Israeli
(4,148 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....does not happen with any other conquering occupations worldwide. We don't see this in Kurdistan, Tibet, W.Sahara, N.Cyprus, or Quebec. Ending occupation elsewhere around the world doesn't require murdering mothers in front of their children.
And if it's all about occupation, then what's the excuse for terror attacks against Jewish babies and pregnant women prior to 1948?
Idiotic propaganda exposed.
The proof is that neither you or Levy have any answers and cannot justify or defend your positions. The best you can do is deflect and repeat in response.
Israeli
(4,148 posts).........personally I think you have been proved as " the fraud " .
Meretz voter indeed ........
More like ' Women in Green ' personified......a mixture of Varda Epstein ( see : http://www.israellycool.com/2016/01/25/theres-a-warm-cozy-place-awaiting-gideon-levy/ )
and this ....
shira
(30,109 posts)....that do not hold up to scrutiny and cannot be defended.
Are you religious?
deathrind
(1,786 posts)Would do itself a huge favor by getting a new PM. After that silly speech he gave at the UN with the Spy vs Spy bomb graphic I am surprised anyone still takes him seriously.