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Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:03 AM

Alice Walker Kills Hebrew ‘Color Purple’ Deal Citing ‘Apartheid’

Alice Walker, author of “The Color Purple,” refused to authorize a Hebrew translation of her prize-winning work, citing what she called Israel’s “apartheid state.”

In a June 9 letter to Yediot Books, Walker said she would not allow the publication of the book into Hebrew because “Israel is guilty of apartheid and persecution of the Palestinian people, both inside Israel and also in the Occupied Territories.”

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/alice-walker-kills-hebrew-color-purple-deal-citing-apartheid/2012/06/19/

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Reply Alice Walker Kills Hebrew ‘Color Purple’ Deal Citing ‘Apartheid’ (Original post)
oberliner Jun 2012 OP
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #1
shira Jun 2012 #2
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #3
azurnoir Jun 2012 #4
shira Jun 2012 #5
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #6
azurnoir Jun 2012 #7
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #11
azurnoir Jun 2012 #13
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #16
azurnoir Jun 2012 #19
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #23
azurnoir Jun 2012 #39
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #8
azurnoir Jun 2012 #10
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #12
azurnoir Jun 2012 #15
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #18
azurnoir Jun 2012 #21
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #30
azurnoir Jun 2012 #34
azurnoir Jun 2012 #36
pelsar Jun 2012 #29
azurnoir Jun 2012 #35
King_David Jun 2012 #44
azurnoir Jun 2012 #45
pelsar Jun 2012 #54
azurnoir Jun 2012 #55
pelsar Jun 2012 #59
azurnoir Jun 2012 #60
pelsar Jun 2012 #68
azurnoir Jun 2012 #72
pelsar Jun 2012 #83
azurnoir Jun 2012 #91
azurnoir Jun 2012 #93
pelsar Jun 2012 #88
azurnoir Jun 2012 #89
Bradlad Jun 2012 #61
pelsar Jun 2012 #67
azurnoir Jun 2012 #90
azurnoir Jun 2012 #92
azurnoir Jun 2012 #9
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #14
azurnoir Jun 2012 #17
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #20
azurnoir Jun 2012 #22
JustAnotherGen Jun 2012 #25
azurnoir Jun 2012 #26
pelsar Jun 2012 #31
azurnoir Jun 2012 #33
azurnoir Jun 2012 #43
azurnoir Jun 2012 #42
oberliner Jun 2012 #46
azurnoir Jun 2012 #47
shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #49
azurnoir Jun 2012 #51
shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #52
shira Jun 2012 #24
azurnoir Jun 2012 #27
shira Jun 2012 #28
azurnoir Jun 2012 #32
shira Jun 2012 #37
azurnoir Jun 2012 #38
shira Jun 2012 #40
azurnoir Jun 2012 #41
shira Jun 2012 #48
azurnoir Jun 2012 #50
shira Jun 2012 #56
azurnoir Jun 2012 #58
shira Jun 2012 #62
azurnoir Jun 2012 #63
oberliner Jun 2012 #64
azurnoir Jun 2012 #66
pelsar Jun 2012 #69
shira Jun 2012 #75
azurnoir Jun 2012 #80
shira Jun 2012 #81
azurnoir Jun 2012 #82
shira Jun 2012 #84
azurnoir Jun 2012 #85
shira Jun 2012 #86
azurnoir Jun 2012 #87
shira Jun 2012 #94
holdencaufield Jun 2012 #53
shira Jun 2012 #57
shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #65
holdencaufield Jun 2012 #70
shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #74
shira Jun 2012 #76
pelsar Jun 2012 #71
shira Jun 2012 #73
shira Jun 2012 #77
shira Jun 2012 #78
oberliner Jun 2012 #79

Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:21 AM

1. Her words

Her book, her right.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:02 AM

2. Yeah, right. Apartheid within Israel...

What a pathetic example of a once great activist looking for some cause, no matter how sick and twisted, to remain relevant. It's always upsetting to see anti-racists becoming what they once proclaimed to hate...

Her new racist Hamasnik BFF...



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Response to shira (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:25 AM

3. She's still great to many

Black American women. The Color Purple is not so much about race - as it is women's rights/experience within America and being a certain race. The Color Purple told ugly truths that black American women still have to deal with today . . . these lessons are why Ann Coulter isn't an angry asshole but Michelle Obama is 'angry'.

Ideally - she shouldn't have given an explanation - just said no and move on. Let the Israeli people - Jewish or Palestinian - read The Help. After all - there is a large segment of white Americans who feel the 'race issue was solved' with that book - maybe it can help Israeli to overcome their issues and put it out of our pretty little heads once and for all.

Snark isn't directed at you - I understand your point. I just think if you read that book as a black woman who descends from those who SURVIVED the Jim Crow Regime - you don't see it as 'racism' - more an outpouring of empathy for what our grandmother's experienced. My fathers was born right around 1900 in Mississippi - so she would have been Miss Celie's contemporary.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #3)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 12:51 PM

4. Hang around it gets ummm interesting here in these parts

the poster is very aware of race issues in the US they get trotted out when similar issues in Israel are brought up, so why do we concentrate on Israel, most likely cause 'we' that, those referred to as 'Team Palestine" hate Israel/Jews, along with the fact that Palestinians living the territories aren't Israeli citizens so of course they don't have the same rights and that picture is of Leftists from the UK (mostly) with Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh its proof of how the Left hates Israel and Jews as in all (the 2 can be interchangeable in these parts) and wants to destroy Israel ect it posted a couple of times a month at 'appropriate' moments
and don't let me forget this one Palestinians (Arabs) who are Israeli citizens, why they have it better than Arabs anywhere so why complain, think back sound familiar?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:01 PM

5. LOL. So what do you think of Alice Walker's claim that there's apartheid within Israel? n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:11 PM

6. She's one writer

Just because that is her opinion - doesn't mean it's true. She also does not live there, and it's not HER experience. And highly doubt the people of Israel really care what ONE writer from the US wants done with her books. Much bigger fish to fry.


Had she said there was a Jim Crow type system in place - I would contemplate her words. I would try to find the analogy. But she compared Israel to South Africa. Cheap shot.

Doesn't mean I'm going to burn The Color Purple or stop giving it to the young women in my family as a gift. It's our story. It's our history - it's America's birth defect. And I won't throw another black American woman under the bus. We're all - regardless of our education, financial security that we've earned - still the lowest women on the totem pole here in America.

What she should be doing is focusing the Trayvon Martin case. She has a voice and bully pulpit and it will make a difference. I'd rather she say - I want to halt all sales of the Color Purple in Florida until they ALSO stop disenfranchising minority Americans.

But Israel is NOT her dog fight.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:16 PM

7. stick around I think you'll be of great value in these parts thanks

so Alice should shut up about Israel, same with Desmond Tutu?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:21 PM

11. Not paying attention to Tutu at all

ANY Roman Catholic for that matter. I'm a UU - we don't bow down to papist rhetoric.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:24 PM

13. well that's nice except that Tutu isn't Catholic

he's Episcopalian, they have Priests , Bishops, Arch Bishops ect too but feel free not to pay attention to him

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:32 PM

16. He still plays nice

With the Christians.

What does Pope Benedict say about all of this?

And has either one commented on the burned Mosque in TN - or the UU Church that was shot up down in TN a few years ago - or the Rutherford NJ Temple that was burned in January?


All three of those things get me 'indignant'. They should be in my power to stop and influence. But we haven't done it here in the US . . .


The way is not from the external - black Americans did not get a 'taste' of civil rights and liberties with the help of ANYONE outside of the US. There were no boycotts of the US. There were no arms being delivered to us on the sly. We did it through reason, perseverance, and quiet protest. Sooner or later - someone is going to murder a Palistinian teenager for whistling at a Jewish woman - or someone is going to blow up a Mosque with four little girls playing in the basement.

The changes will come from within the Israeli people themselves. Sooner or later they will see Palestinian children as children. The emmet till and birmingham 4 were what changed the 'hearts' of the white Americans.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:43 PM

19. oh so they should just wait I see

does it occur to you that Birmingham bombing and Emmet Till happened way prior to international media being what it is today? and those things did not change the hearts of White America did you learn that in history class? I've got news the hearts of White America got 'changed' by making discrimination illegal period in other words the change was intitially forced or why has the South voted Republican since 1964?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:08 PM

23. Actually

My father who died last August - was the same age as Emmett Till. I'm quite familiar with the situation.

And I'll follow the perspective of my father, aunts, uncles who LIVED it (I had a taste in the late 70's at a Dairy Queen) and believed those to be the TWO defining moments. And well, I'm sure you know slavery never really ended in the US. It just 'shifted'. I.E. - It's only been since the mid 1960's that it ended. Your history books will tell you differently.

See here's the thing - and what REALLY irks me about Walker. She is the first one to say (and I agree with) I don't like when non black Americans (to include those outside of the US) try to define the black American experience.

I don't think she should be defining the Israeli or Palestinian experience. The situation is a unique one. Trying to put in the pretty little slots of slave nations (S.Africa and the USA) doesn't help.

If she compared it to the traveler/roma experience in modern day Europe (Italy is a perfect example) it would make sense. It's a better analogy to me - but then again . . . I'm not living it.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 03:34 PM

39. But what about nonBlack Americans who lived themselves in the Black community?

should those, or should I say we just stfu too?

eta you speak about experiencing discrimination at a Dairy Queen in the late '70's, my daughter and I experienced it at a K-Mart here in the north a short time back

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Response to shira (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:18 PM

8. I also have to say

It seems like the fate of the Palestinians in their day to day lives seems have become the "Pop Indignity of The Day". I.E. - - Let's all us Rock Stars and such get on a bandwagon about a situation that we are NOT going to change. I've been to Tel-Aviv and Jaffa the Dead Sea and well . . . they are just lovely people the Israelis.


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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #8)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:20 PM

10. actually I've been on this bandwagon as you chose to call it

for 6 1/2 years now here on DU but thanks your replies are quite revealing

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:23 PM

12. So help me to understand this

You TRULY believe that the Israelis are this demonic force that has it's boot on the neck of the Palestinians?

You REALLY believe that?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #12)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:30 PM

15. "Demonic force" quite a colorful choice of words but no not demonic

however what they are doing in the Occupied territories to Palestinians is wrong it is against civil rights by anyone's measure and in Israel itself things are coming close, did you know that Israel passed a law that allows towns to deny residence to anyone that doesn't fit the cultural identity of that town, I suppose it could work both ways but who will be denied more often do you think?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:42 PM

18. Yes

Israel also put in what? 60K to the UN Refugee fund - and now they are evicting some of the African refugees? The US has had Israel amongst its top ten beneficiaries of foreign aid for the past decade.

In the meantime - alarmist/racists in Europe scream 'Eurabia' and Anti-Semitic Ukranian Soccer players call each other Jews as the 'highest' insult.
They (Christian Europe) can't even decide who to hate based upon their religion.

And the world is on brink of financial disaster.

And America has too high of an unemployment rate and Krugman is now calling this a depression. *doh*

What is America to do? Pull our foreign aid to Israel? Could we? Will the Israelis even care? If we pull our aid - will those who follow the most 'extreme' ideology of Islam back off of our (America's) destruction? The only thing I can see that prevents Israel from doing something that is going to get a lot of children killed in say - Iran - is the fact that we hold that money over their governments head. The only thing that keeps GOVERNMENTS (not inviduals - I highly doubt the woman who mirrors my space and place in life that lives in Iran thinks every single minute about the destruction of Israel) is our alliance with Israel.

The US needs to keep walking the tight rope - it used to sadly insane that kept Iran in check. With him gone - it's just us.

And look up our 'special' relationship with Sadly Insane. It's not that different than our special relationship with Paul Kagame.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #18)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:54 PM

21. Did Obama just give Kagame a Medal of Freedom?

nope I don't think so does the US give any one African country 3+ billion dollars a year no I don't think so

now I have nothing against the existence of Israel, but I do have a problem with its actions towards Palestinians, especially those living under its military occupation

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:42 PM

30. So what is the solution

What will change it -
but I do have a problem with its actions towards Palestinians, especially those living under its military occupation


What will cause a revolution from within?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:58 PM

34. my belief is that it possibly will happen do to international pressure or

it possibly might not happen at all, there is little compunction for Israeli's to give up the territories and some do not the Israeli's already living there (the settlers) back in Israel, time will tell

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 03:04 PM

36. in addition there already are such groups in Israel here are 2

http://www.gush-shalom.org/

http://www.btselem.org/

however you might find there groups are denigrated by some posting on this thread and theyu by no means constitute any sort of majority within Israel, in fact we told here they are radical fringe groups

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:36 PM

29. since when are civil rights an issue with you?

this is new for me......your actually concerned about the civil rights of the Palestinians?.....

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Response to pelsar (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:59 PM

35. oh please what in your mind has this all been about? n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #35)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:22 PM

44. Ha Pelsar got it right.

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Response to King_David (Reply #44)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:24 PM

45. yep I'll second that one n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #35)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 02:56 AM

54. your quote....previous post/different thread

is there work to be done, you bet, but wouldn't it be better to do that work when there is actually a state to work with

your clearly advocating that civil rights are dependent upon having a 'state" and people who are "stateless" or in the process of getting a state don't have the right to civil rights in the meantime.

play it anyway you want, you can even call it a political strategy if you like, but your still calling for suspension of civil rights.

(states btw in case you didn't notice, don't really take well to outside interference on their definition of civil rights-see hamas and iran for examples of your theory in action)

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Response to pelsar (Reply #54)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 04:19 AM

55. different aspect what I said pertained to passage of civil rights laws

Last edited Wed Jun 20, 2012, 05:15 AM - Edit history (1)

within a future Palestinian government you know that however don't let that stop you except I must ask do you ever get dizzy from spinning or is that math isn't your strong suit you have a way with 2+2=5 and if you remember I was speaking about civil rights laws, why do you make such fatuous claims? however overall the occupation itself has put on hold civil rights for Palestinians in the OPT

And once again you use Hamas as your chosen fall back, except they are not the government in the West Bank and are not too likely to be in the foreseeable future

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #55)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 01:50 PM

59. civil rights......your were clear...not now for the Palestenians...

i believe you were very clear that the Palestenians don't deserve their civil rights until they have their own govt.....and when i write they don't "deserve them" i am taking that out of your writing that was very clear that now is not the time to put any pressure on the PA/Hamas govt for those civil rights (or the Lebanese for that matter)

did i understand wrong? or that you believe there should be pressure on the PA/hamas to have western civil rights today?
___

from there i was extrapolating to your views on the Palestenians in Lebanon...as you wrote something to the effect that also with them, that its "OK" not to give them the full civil rights of the Lebanese, even those who were born in Lebanon.

am i wrong?
__
one thing about your views....you prefer to remain vague at best and really hate to be very definitive...

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Response to pelsar (Reply #59)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 02:13 PM

60. and the spinning increases

what is clear is that your desperate what I have said is that civil rights laws that is laws will be developed that is written in a state constitution when there is a state to develop them, you conveniently interpret that as not deserving or such bull but indeed that is not what I said that is how you want to spin it, but that does serve your purposes doesn't it

By the way you keep quoting me but for some reason don't provide a link to thew quote why is it that you don't want what I said and more importantly the context seen ?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #60)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:40 AM

68. its called clarification....and application of ones principles.....

is that civil rights laws that is laws will be developed that is written in a state constitution when there is a state to develop them

and i interpret that to mean, that until that state is developed any creating/developing laws etc pertaining to the Palestinians under the PA (who in fact does make laws for its citizens) are to be "put on hold" with its consequence of freezing development of the Palestinian society. (you might notice i like the word consequence....its takes one beloved principles and sometimes shows how cruel they can be to others.....)

well? is that your principled stance?

spare me the "i'm afraid of the context" bs.....just being lazy (your quote above relates directly to it, hence clearly you know it)

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Response to pelsar (Reply #68)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:39 AM

72. No the sort of clarification as you call it is generally called spinning

Last edited Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:42 AM - Edit history (2)

you take a statement and then apply conclusions and meanings usually to serve one own purposes to it that fall outside of the meaning or add things that were not in the statement, we see that often here

I could do it too

you constantly call Abbas a dictator, because he has postponed elections for quite some time

you also seem to think that Hamas would win elections in the West Bank

conclusion you want Abbas to hold elections that Hamas would win there by putting Hamas in power on the West Bank and most likely resulting in the cut off Western support

also you say that both the PA and Jordan coordinate with Israel to control the borders and Hamas/IJ/ and other terrorist groups activities in the West Bank and border areas along the Jordan river , do not support the removal of IDF although these Palestinian and Jordanian security forces have already proven their capability and the former would still be getting assistance from the West

conclusion Arabs can't be trusted to police their own even if it's in their best interest

eta see it's not too hard, but really it get nowhere

..............................................................................................................................

now about civil rights the current Palestinian government follow to a large extent Jordanian codes some are good some not so much, however once again some of the civil rights complaints stem from the suppression of political parties but what parties exactly were not told, the parties being suppressed are Hamas /IJ/other political groups, and I believe will remain so would you rather these parties would not be suppressed, if so why?
now as to laws regarding women Gays and religious minorities Christians most those laws will be developed some will be adapted from the already existing ones some maybe unique, women need more equality Gays need better protections at the very least, because these things too are civil rights, but let me ask did Israel have all of its laws down in say 1940, about the same amount of time after Balfour as has pasted between now and Oslo, you ca not say yes because those laws are developing all the time, so why do you expect more of the Palestinians than was required of Israel?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #72)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:33 PM

83. my conclusions are clear....and easy to question...yours are vague with always a 'backdoor"

that is the difference.....if you question mine and find contradictions, once spotted, i can either clarify or modify...with you one must make guess as to what you might mean and then you have the classic " i've already answer that"..which is always a good "out" instead of clarifying.
_________________

ah..so you noticed, that i mention that abbas is a dictator yet I also see elections as being potentially dangerous. This is very true,
I have no pretentious here, i believe that dictators unfortunately have a place given certain conditions as without them things can be worse- iran being an example as i see theocratic regimes to be the lowest form of governing.

however, what i dont get from you...is what is the "progressive stance" arent you suppose to be against dictators? as well as hamas? Well? are you for Abbas being a dictator or not?

As far a Jordan and the PA security forces, the PA security forces requires the IDF to survive, like their Parent PA they are corrupt and unreliable and their govt is not stable. And in case you missed the arab spring, Jordan may not be far behind and as in 1970 may require the IDF to survive.....thats reality, and thats the problem with dictatorships is that they are not stable.

as far as civil rights go...whats the reason for suppression of freedom of speech?, once that is suppressed anything goes and there is no excuse for that. Is that something that you also support?

comparing israel in the 1940's to the PA in 2012 doesn't work very well, in terms of gays rights etc given the general culture of the entire world at that point, a better comparison and one that i suspect you will avoid is freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Whats the excuse for limiting that?

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Response to pelsar (Reply #83)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:52 AM

91. you've gotten my view a number of times they simply do not say what you want/need but

you are free to draw any conclusion you wish does not make them correct but i am sure they gratify you

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Response to pelsar (Reply #83)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 03:37 AM

93. The West Bank follow Jordanian code which legalized being Gay in 1951, Israel did that in 1988

hey the 1951 surprised me but it's true now do Gays need more legal protections in the West Bank yes, and i do understand why you'd have them turn their attention to that I do and it makes for good liberal appearing concern but you know right now Israel is deporting a Gay Palestinian even though he's lived in Israel for 10 years so I guess for Israel ethnic origins are more important than Gay rights on women it was interesting we had a thread the other night about a women only coffee shop opening in Ramallah, posters assumed it was because women are restricted in their movements when in fact in the article it stated plainly that they are not restricted at all, the women wanted a women's only place, for the most part the civil rights for women and Gays you go on about are societal attitudes as opposed to laws, and the PA/PLO is indeed secular in fact they had a falling out with Hamas over this last week but never mind those facts it is clearly the PA/PLO that has you worried isn't it they have Western governmental support and there for are a true danger to Israel's 'growth'

Now Gaza is a different story, Hamas is terrible but it seems you want them in the West Bank too, why?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:22 AM

88. to continue...because your being specific....

can't this thread die...your actually being very specific about my views and yours:

first a bit more about mine: I make no claim for what is "better" for the Palestinians, I make no claim that israel is a "bad/evil/good" country for (not) providing civil rights to the Palestinians as a matter of principle or "weapon" against/for the israeli society (as others do). I have a single concern for the Palestinians and that is that they create a stable country that will give me the confidence that they have accepted the situation, and will stop trying to kill us.

To that end, i only trust a govt/society that has freedom of speech and press at its core. Once those are established and the chorus of different voices will be heard from the Palestinians, the character of the conflict will change and voices such as Ken as per an example of believing there is a but a single viewpoint, i.e. fantacisim, will be drowned out by the multitude of real opinions by the Palestinians themselves and then a state may be established that actually represents the Palestinians themselves......as per their own voices. This goal is not to be risked with foolish fantasies but to built from the ground up, slowly but surly while fighting those who are against it.

To that end, pressure should be put on now for that to occur. History has shown that once a society is established, especially in this region, outside pressures for human rights/civil rights, etc is pretty much non existent, so your whole theory that once a state is established that they will develop a western democracy has no basis. Its a belief, but a belief that if its wrong leaves the region open to continued warfare and a dangerous strategy given the forces involved.

but more interesting is the betrayal of ones "progressive credentials" Your basically advocating for the creation of a dictatorship that has religious law as part of its foundation documents, with a belief that the society will develop a western culture and value system, when that very society has already rejected those values.....furthermore you've clearly stated that in the meantime "hands off" no pressure, no education to push them toward that goal, while in fact they are still vulnerable for some influence given the amount of international aid and internationals who "spend their summer" their.

putting ones values and principles "on hold", does not strike me as a very principled stand, especially when the consequences (remember that word.....very important) can easily lead to hamas style govt in the west bank.....their influence is nothing to ignore as per the last student elections....

but clearly your most important value (and all of our values have a hierarchal system of what is most important, 2nd etc), is for a Palestenians state, irreguardless of its initial character.

i would say thats a pretty good definition of what nationalism is, first and formost the state, no matter what.....deviation from that single most important goal is not to be tolerated, and your going to claim that, does not mimic the classic right wing stand?

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Response to pelsar (Reply #88)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:44 AM

89. Lol yet more bs pelsar? yep looks like it and no this thread should not die

I'm waiting for a little 'lamb' to return and finish our conversation now go ahead with the BS accusation dear I guess they make you feel what better superior but it does not change the fact that they are BS

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Response to pelsar (Reply #59)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 02:14 PM

61. I've noticed that too.

Addressing azurnoir: " one thing about your views....you prefer to remain vague at best and really hate to be very definitive... "

But I see it as fairly widespread on the anti-Israel side of this forum. An example: A huge number of words and comments have been offered be several different members trying to get kayecy to be specific about his belief that the Jews were "unethical" to have pursued their dreams for statehood in Palestine. I figured a few days ago, after trying every way I could think of to get him to explain what ethical principles were violated and how they applied - that for keyecy, it just wasn't gonna happen. So I dropped out.

Vague accusations unconnected to any specific principles (like UDHR) serve the purpose; expressing their animosity (that's a mild word for it) toward Israel (its formation, its existence, its self-defense, whatever). Specifics can be refuted with evidence. Vague accusations can be slipped out of easily enough - making way for the next.

Pity there's no one from the other side who really wants to get down to the basic elements of moral values on the matter. It's a topic very much worth an honest effort IMO.

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Response to Bradlad (Reply #61)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:33 AM

67. the favorite is "israel has the right to defend itself"..... mantra

try to get a specific out of that one, using todays technologies.....in all my years here, i have never gotten a single explanation of what that actually means in terms of "weapons, judgements etc that the IDF is "permissible to use and when.

putting forth the real life scenario of what is the "permissible action" underthe headline of "defending itself" at best i would get a "i already answered that"....

if you get down to real specifics, the moral dilemmas become far more difficult and for the most part Israel comes out looking a lot better than the PA/Hamas and all of their friends and supporters, hence its to be avoided at all costs.

but the gymnastics involved...just wow.

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Response to pelsar (Reply #67)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 02:49 AM

90. yepper 1400 dead Arabs vs 14 dead Israelis(Jews) 4 of which were killed by other Israel's

looks real darn good to some and I take it your one of them? Say BTW I have a question are you still an American citizen with the rights that come with it such as voting in general elections?

I will not ask anymore than that

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Response to Bradlad (Reply #61)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 03:13 AM

92. Heres what I noticed and a link to the thread in question

ProIsrael posters play a game where in one will start a 'conversation' with a ProPalestinian poster then when on the ropes the ProIsrael side will switch hit and another poster will take the conversation if the ProPalestinian poster answers then that answer will be thought about and an attempt to pick it apart will be made by either the first poster or a 3rd poster, in Kayescy's case it took ay least 4 possibly 5 of of you piling on and attacking from every possible angle and he held up quite well even after the personally insulting title line method was used, we've seen it before as we have the but- but- but you didn't answer the question, aka you didn't say what we want when anyone thinking person who can read knows full well the questions have been answered

here's a link to the thread its epic and valiant show of ProIsrael solidarity indeed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11345397



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Response to shira (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:19 PM

9. within Israel? I think it depends on how much racial disparity in economics

educational opportunities, housing law that allow discrimination based on ethnic culture, ect there have to be before one calls it apartheid

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:24 PM

14. Is it my fight?

We still have these problems in the US. We do. We simply do. Before we demonize another country - we better wash our own dirty laundry before we go airing others.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:38 PM

17. Interesting reply did you feel that way about South Africa too

you were quick enough to dismiss Tutu but some can see the parallels between the fight for basic civil and rights in the territories and here in the US, BTW we also help fund a some of these goings on in the West Bank so its our as Americans dirty laundry too

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:48 PM

20. The problem is

I don't know that that Israeli consitution defines who is a human being, and what rights human beings are guaranteed. I also don't know if they have interstate commerce which could be used as a Federal guideline to guarantee all those born in the country of Israel equal protection and due process (speaking specifically to the law which was the basic for the facade of equality in the US) as an inherent right of citizenship. Due process - if it exists to ALL Israelis - is how the settlement issues are resolved.

The other thing - I DO believe the Israelis base their 'codes' on the idea that Palestinians are indeed 100% human beings. Right there - you have a sharp distinction between the US and Israel. US didn't recognize black Americans as 'people'.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:04 PM

22. Israel does not have a Constitution as such

and you apparently have much to learn about due process in the territories and Israel recognizes Palestinians as human beings oh yes but if an Israel Palestinian marries a Palestinian from the West Bank they can not live together in Israel, and if an Israeli Jew wants to marry a Palestinian from the territories it gets even more complicated because inter-religions marriages are not allowed to be preformed in Israel, they have to go elsewhere, usually Cyprus its close but the Palestinian has to get Israeli permission to leave, that can take some time, like years if at all and that's only the tip of the iceberg and then there's still that residency thing

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:14 PM

25. So they are half way there

And there are laws against miscegenation? Similiar to the Nuremburg Laws - correct?

And I'm not typing that to display the hyperbole. These laws exists - the closest connection as they are based on 'religion' would be the Nuremburg Laws.

And no - I'm not taking the time to read over 190 ISO recognized countries 'constitutions. My own has been getting used as toilet paper for some time now.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:24 PM

26. yes miscegenation as such but to be fair marriages preformed outside of Israel are recognised by

the secular part of the government, but many laws are to make life difficult for Palestinians especially those in the territories, some of us think these things to be more universal these days but think or do whatever works for you, but I do have a question what does UU stand for?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:43 PM

31. no.....no laws against miscegenation

anybody can marry anybody in israel....religion and nationality have no bearing on the marriage.

its gets messy when security issues are involved as Palestinians by the nature of the conflict carry with them security issues.

In terms of religion the orthodox jews control the marriage system so mixed religion marriages have to either get a civil marriage or go to out of the country and come back with a marriage certificate..which is recognized.
____

you'll find others with agendas that like to demonize israel and attribute all kinds of racist ideology to the culture and to the various laws when in fact its base is either security or some religious power play.

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Response to pelsar (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:47 PM

33. so your saying that inter-religious marriages are preformed in Israel?

is that something new? do tell

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Response to pelsar (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:15 PM

43. Civil marriages are allowed in Israel now?

or is it only for those who prove they have no religious affiliations?

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:13 PM

42. Marriage in Israel

Marriages in Israel can be performed under the auspices of the religious community to which couples belong, or for people who have proven to lack any religion, civil marriage can be performed also. Matrimonial law is based on the Millet or confessional community system employed in the Ottoman Empire, which was not modified during the British Mandate and remains in force in the State of Israel.

There are nine officially recognised Christian communities, and Jewish, Muslim and Druze communities. Marriages in each community are under the jurisdiction of their own religious authorities. The religious authority for Jewish marriages performed in Israel is the Chief Rabbinate of Israel and the Rabbinical courts. The Israeli Interior Ministry registers marriages on presentation of proper documentation. Registration does not in itself validate a marriage, and lack of registration does not invalidate one. However, civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages entered into abroad are recognised by the state.

However, it is illegal under Penal Law Amendment (Bigamy) Law, 5719 (1959), to marry in Israel while already married. This applies to members of each confessional community, including the Jewish and Muslim. However, polygyny is still practiced in the Bedouin community, where about 25% of men are believed to have more than one wife.

The minimum marriage age in Israel is 18 for males and 17 for females.

This page was last modified on 13 June 2012 at 15:46.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #42)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 06:37 PM

46. Hooray for Wikipedia!

Except in reality, that isn't exactly how it works.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #46)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 06:41 PM

47. Then how does it work? n/t

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:30 PM

49. Generally, only religious marriage is available...

a recent bill permitted civil marriage but it is heavily circumscribed, and as I understand it, really only intended as a last ditch effort for certain people (Russians mainly) who would not be able to marry in a Jewish ceremony due to conversion status issues.

There is no impediment to a Jewish girl marrying an Arab man, as far as the Islamic authorities are concerned, so the marriage can go ahead, although there are Jewish vigilante groups dedicated to the "rescue" of such girls, so it is a case of try and see, I suppose.

Couples can go to Cyprus if they want. The other alternative is to go to the Anglican church. The only real requirement that they have is that one member of a couple profess some variant of a Christian faith (doesn't have to be Anglicanism) - however as I understand it it the priests often overlook that requirement on a compassionate basis if the couple are unable to get married elsewhere and can't afford to go to Cyprus.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #49)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:33 PM

51. most of that I already said but now a question what is the status of children

born to Jewish mother who were married to Muslim father by Muslim clerics, are they still considered to be Jews? Normally children born to Jewish mother and nonJewish father are considered to be Jews but is the mother still considered Jewish?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #51)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:42 PM

52. That is an interesting question...

halachically, they would be Jewish, of course, but they would also be Muslims according to the Muslims. Obviously, they would be recorded as either Jewish or Arab in the National ID register, I have no idea which or how this would be decided. You would hope that it would be a matter of election for the individuals concerned.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:11 PM

24. So it's possibly going on in Israel. Okay, is apartheid happening in Lebanon...

...against Palestinian refugees who are denied working in over 70 professions, cannot vote, and cannot own/purchase land?

Seems clear to me Palestinians suffer under significantly worse conditions in Lebanon than within Israel. What do you think? Is it apartheid?

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Response to shira (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:26 PM

27. anda Palestinian state would help alleviate that wouldn't it?

oh wait ....okay we can go round that shrub again if you wish

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #27)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:32 PM

28. Again, yes or no. Is it apartheid vs. Palestinians in Lebanon?

I didn't ask if a Palestinian state would alleviate anything.

For some reason, you're more reluctant to answer this question. Easier to do so WRT Israel, not so much WRT Lebanon.

Yes or No?

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Response to shira (Reply #28)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 02:45 PM

32. that once again as you've been told depends on your defination of apartheid

does the fact that Lebanon treats foreign refugees differently from its own citizens constitute apartheid, it could if you wish to define it that way and you do but the solutions are different you would have Lebanon either be condemned in place of Israel and maybe make Palestinians citizens there by taking pressure off Israel and I would see them given a choice the first being their own state a place to go a place that is theirs, because by your own description they are not nor have they ever been part of Lebanese society so by your own words that is not their country even if they were born there

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 03:07 PM

37. I'm asking you for your opinion, not anyone else's. I gave you mine WRT both situations...

I'm still waiting for your answers. It seems to be 'maybe' in both cases. If you can't answer yes or no, why not just say you don't know and leave it at that?

Your answer in #32 was revealing. You don't like Lebanon being condemned "in place of" Israel, going to show this isn't about Palestinian civil rights to you at all. It's just a political blame game. You don't want Hamas condemned for what they do to Palestinians (that's delegitimization & an excuse to continue occupation/settlements) and now you don't want Lebanon condemned either b/c that takes "pressure" off Israel. How pathetic. Palestinians are nothing but political pawns to you, abstractions, not human beings. You could choose to condemn everyone equally (Hamas, Lebanon, Israel). But you have it in only for Israel. Victims are secondary. That's why you don't have a problem with the UN's obsession with Israel. If they were to, god forbid, focus more on Burma, the Congo, Sudan, and N.Korea that TOO would take pressure off Israel and you won't have any of that!

Shameful!

Also, why isn't your choice NOW for refugees in Lebanon a choice of whether to remain refugees or become Lebanese citizens, since they were born there? If you're for their individual civil rights - and not cynically for their 'collective' rights as refugees - why not give them that choice?

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Response to shira (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 03:29 PM

38. stating your opinion as facts along with your tired accusations

shira its tired all you can do is make false accusations I said that the Palestinian refugees should be given a choice and enumerated one on purpose, but as you so want them to be at home in Lebanon or any other Arab country, what do you think those chances are? as you point out they are strangers in a strange land, and Lebanon is none too stable or safe at the moment, even for Lebanese, same for Syria why would you have Palestinians put in even more peril, in Lebanon the army is killing Palestinians in camps right now, but you would have them made citizens of a country that so welcomes them, ya no one cares about Palestinians like you shira IMO the best choice for Palestinian refugees is Palestine

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 04:04 PM

40. So you won't answer yes or no. Not even maybe or "I don't know".

You won't even allow refugees in Lebanon to choose to become citizens there. It's their choice, but you won't have any of that b/c that too would "take pressure" off Israel (and life may not be good for them in Lebanon). Nice that you're choosing for them collectively out of the goodness of your heart.

Revealing thread. Reminds me of the time you debated Pelsar about Egypt vs. Israel's responsibility to Gazan well being. Egypt should not be blamed. Only Israel. Egypt should do nothing to "take the pressure" off Israel.

At least you're consistent.

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Response to shira (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 04:17 PM

41. and once again your consistant too at least with false accusations

and 'creative' reinterpretations, please don't stop

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #41)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 08:10 PM

48. So name one thing I'm wrong about, please. And how so... n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #48)

Tue Jun 19, 2012, 11:28 PM

50. lol ok

first off you whine and rant constantly because everyone condemns Israel over its treatment of Palestinians in the OPT but not Lebanon won't someone please condemn Lebanon (after all they're all Arabs ) well here's the deal what I said was that you wanted pressure taken off Israel, you've reinterpreted that as me, and you've made that abundantly obvious with your accusations now I said they should have choices that's plural but only enumerated one twice and pointed out that historically Lebanon has been quite hostile to Palestinians remember Sabra and Shatila the massacre by Lebanese Phalangists that IDF had observer status for, the killings that are happening in camps right now but none the less if they wish to remain in Lebanon then they should be able to , it is you that would give them no choice but Lebanon

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #50)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:45 AM

56. that's it? you're basically conceding everything I wrote about you...

first off you whine and rant constantly because everyone condemns Israel over its treatment of Palestinians in the OPT but not Lebanon won't someone please condemn Lebanon (after all they're all Arabs )


Keep correcting me if I'm wrong...

You don't believe in condemning Lebanon (Hamas, the PLO, etc..) WRT their violations of Palestinian human rights. Again, it's you and yours who claim to be pro-Palestinian, not anti-Israel. I shouldn't have to say anything. It should be natural for you guys to advocate for Palestinians under Arab rule every bit as much as you do for them under Israeli. You should be criticizing Lebanon every bit as much as you criticize Israel. But you don't.

FFS, none of you can even admit (let alone condemn) Lebanon for practicing genuine apartheid vs. Palestinians.

well here's the deal what I said was that you wanted pressure taken off Israel, you've reinterpreted that as me, and you've made that abundantly obvious with your accusations


Let's assume I do. So what? What does that have to do with you guys not taking much interest at all over Palestinian oppression that doesn't involve Israel? Am I wrong to say it's you guys who don't want pressure taken off Israel? It's why none of you can even admit to Lebanese apartheid, or ever bring up gay and women's rights in the territories. Worse, none of you can even admit that the UN has a problem with its focus on Israel and the countries on its human rights councils (Syria still currently on UNESCO). Because you're against "pressure" taken off Israel, you'll gladly sacrifice human rights worldwide to "get" Israel. Exactly my point...

As for me, my position has always been clear as human rights are universal. The biggest violators should draw the most attention. At worst, all countries should draw equal attention for their violations. You say that's me wanting pressure taken off Israel. I say it's very cynical of you to not want either of the 2 scenarios mentioned. How am I wrong?

As to pressure mostly against Israel, isn't that the goal of totalitarian and theocratic dictatorships? To keep pressure off themselves and on another country - like Israel? Why help them play that game? And really now, what's worse? Trying to keep pressure off Israel or trying to keep pressure off most of the world where >99.9999% of most human rights violations occur?

now I said they should have choices that's plural but only enumerated one twice


The one you enumerated is unrealistic. It's fantasy land. They're not going back to Israel. Why give them a silly 'choice' that's done nothing for them the past 64 years and will do nothing for them the next 64 years?

and pointed out that historically Lebanon has been quite hostile to Palestinians remember Sabra and Shatila the massacre by Lebanese Phalangists that IDF had observer status for, the killings that are happening in camps right now


Yes, in passing every now and then (not on your own initiative) you'll half-heartedly highlight an atrocity or 2 vs. Palestinians by Lebanon, within the context of laying it on Israel (as you just did above). Which is exactly my point. You won't condemn both Lebanon and Israel equally as you really don't believe you should. All victims are the same. Lebanese Palestinians are just as Palestinian as those in Gaza. You tell me WHY you don't think you should condemn Lebanon/Israel equally if it has nothing to do with taking pressure off Israel?

but none the less if they wish to remain in Lebanon then they should be able to , it is you that would give them no choice but Lebanon


Then why aren't you and yours advocating for refugee rights in Lebanon and elsewhere - that they should have the choice to become citizens in all those places now? Why does this confession have to be dragged out of you? You claim to be pro-Palestinian, not anti-Israel.

It's not that I wouldn't give them any other choice than Lebanon, but realistically they're not going back to Israel. I don't see the point of them having to hold off for more decades for a fantasy that will not come true.

True or False The reason refugees remain in camps today is the fault of Arab regimes who want to use them to flood Israel demographically. Let's see you answer that and condemn it...

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Response to shira (Reply #56)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 01:35 PM

58. more of the 'Arab protocols ' eh ?

still and none the less shira I stated that it was you that wanted pressure off Israel, you keep attempting to turn it around or say I said otherwise but thank you for at being honest about what you think Israels real intentions are WRT a Palestinian state, and that apparently you already consider the West Bank Israeli property.

It's not that I wouldn't give them any other choice than Lebanon, but realistically they're not going back to Israel. I don't see the point of them having to hold off for more decades for a fantasy that will not come true.


because I keep mentioning a Palestinian state most of us know that's the West Bank and Gaza but your entire quote keeps saying Israel, otherwise its nonsensical

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #58)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 03:54 PM

62. You're still being vague and playing games. That's the reason Pelsar and I have to "guess"...

....what your beliefs truly are WRT Palestinian civil rights. You say something but deny the implications later w/o explaining yourself. You then accuse us of misrepresenting you.

As to a state, you've got me wrong, but unlike yourself I will do my best to explain so that you won't make anymore wrong assumptions. I wish you'd do the same. As I wrote earlier, refugees are expected to go back into Israel, not the W.Bank or Gaza. That's the reason they've been penned up for 64 years and continue to be. The PA ambassador to Lebanon said they will NOT become citizens of the W.Bank. He was never corrected by PA higher ups, certainly not in Arabic, and he never will be publicly. I think that guy knows what he's talking about. I mean seriously, do you think Abbas could ever get away with anything LESS than full RoR with Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Muslim Brotherhood, etc.? He couldn't do it even if he wanted to.

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Response to shira (Reply #62)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 04:05 PM

63. once again why you do expect Palestinians to remain in a country that is obviously hostile to them

and the PA ambassador said , so what an Ambassador says overshadows what a President said we can go over that again if you wish, all your comment shows is that you hold different standards for Palestinians than Jews, you expect Palestinians to stay in country where they are segregated from the main population, restricted from working in a number of professions oh and subject to violence from the native population, much as Jews were in Poland and Russia but do you expect them to stay there, I don't think so

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #63)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 05:07 PM

64. Much as Jews were in Poland and Russia?

Et tu, Brute?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #64)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:17 AM

66. Huh?

There is a comparison, no not to the Holocaust but to earlier times when Jewish ghetto's were common especially in Eastern Europe , Jews were prevented from working in a number of professions, and yes violence from the surrounding population

To be honest it was another poster listing off the conditions faced by Palestinians in Lebanon that enlightened me to that parallel, don't know why it never occurred to me before, in short are Palestinians facing genocide in Lebanon or anywhere else that I know of-no but are the conditions they presently face in Lebanon similar to 19th century and earlier Jews yes I think so, perhaps not exactly the same but they never are, but there are similarities

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #66)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 12:55 AM

69. its not just lebanon....

The Palestinians face discrimination through out the arabs world, legal limitations of where they can live, work etc (I'm not totally up to date on the per country laws).

which is precisely why for those who claim to care about the "Palestinians" and their civil rights, there is no reason for not putting pressure on those arab countries to start treating them better. They no longer are a threat to Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc

so when i hear about someone complaining about the Palestinians lack of "civil rights" I wonder why that view is so selective? There not going to be getting a state in the next year or two and they've been living as refugees with limited civil rights through out the arab world without a "peep" from those who claim they care for over 65 years now.

clearly the "caring" is on par with the way the arab host countries 'care".......they don't.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #63)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 08:12 AM

75. Every Arab nation is hostile to the refugees. Are you saying they can't integrate...

Last edited Thu Jun 21, 2012, 09:02 AM - Edit history (1)

....anywhere in the mideast other than a future Palestinian state? They are, after all, persecuted throughout the mideast. Of course, EVERYONE like gays, women, and christians are also persecuted throughout the mideast but you don't seem concerned about them, even when they live under Hamas or PLO authority.

You're not consistent in your views, which is why you're challenged here.

It's not that I expect Palestinians to want to be persecuted, it's that they should have a CHOICE to live in the country they were born in. It seems you have a big problem with this choice. Once citizens, they will then have equal rights with the rest of the population. Shitty rights just like them, but equally shitty nonetheless.

And again, their own state won't take them in. The PA ambassador to Lebanon - and he should know what he's talking about - says refugees aren't going to Palestine.

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Response to shira (Reply #75)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:08 PM

80. so for Palestinian refugees to remain in a country hostile to them is your choice for them

sure if they have an alternative which you do not seem to provide for us, oh and show us the article where where the Palestinian Ambassador to Lebanon states that with link

what becomes apparent is that you must fall back on once again false accusations but it is interesting to see that you do not have a problem with Palestinians living with as you call them shitty civil rights as long as they stay where they are

thanks you proved my point about having double standards would not have expected Jews to stay in Poland and Russia at the end of 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries, I mean they were born there right? However when it comes to Palestinians it's a different story altogether apparently

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #80)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 02:07 PM

81. Welcome to the mideast where Palestinians will have shitty human rights throughout the Arab world...

You've never brought up civil rights for Palestinians anywhere else in the mideast before, whether Lebanon or inside the territories.

So why now?

Also...

Are you NOW attempting to argue that the best option for Palestinians is to live in Israel, where their rights will be better protected than anywhere else in the mideast?

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Response to shira (Reply #81)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:08 PM

82. so your upset that I even brought it up and I said that Palestinians should live in Israel too? wow

this just keeps getting better and better IMO you must be depending on people drifting in here will only read the most recent comments I would have them read the whole thread

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #82)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:39 PM

84. You are bringing up Israel, as though that should be a choice to refugees in Lebanon...

They should be able to choose between

a) return to Israel
b) becoming citizens in Lebanon
c) becoming citizens in a new Palestinian state (W.Bank)

Right?

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Response to shira (Reply #84)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:45 PM

85. Nope not on this thread Israel is your obsession

now if you wish trot out other threads be my guest it only shows your desperation and I am betting you will be quite select in your choices, have fun now

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #85)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 04:17 PM

86. You're playing games not answering simple questions. You shouldn't accuse...

...your opponents here of misrepresenting your views when you're so deliberately cryptic and vague with your remarks.

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Response to shira (Reply #86)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 04:28 PM

87. deliberately cryptic? tell us what didn't you understand?

OT But BTW I was disappointed our new friend JustAnotherGen decided not to continue the discussion, it was just getting interesting, and it seems she has a way with buzz words I've seen a couple of editorials where the term 'bandwagon' was used to describe "antiIsrael" or ProPalestinian political views as she did, but oh well

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #87)

Sat Jun 23, 2012, 08:43 AM

94. To be clear....

You are criticizing me for daring to allow refugees in Lebanon the choice to become citizens there right now. Once citizens, they are no longer subject to apartheid laws anymore. This is a choice you are criticizing me for. As if I'm forcing something terrible on them.

OTOH, you want Lebanese refugees to have the choice to become Israeli citizens due to RoR. A nation which you constantly says treats its Arab citizens as 2nd class, apartheid, etc. You've been calling for this RoR for years, claiming not many refugees would want to choose the Jewish state.

Now why attack me when you're essentially calling for the same kind of choice?

=======

Next, we can continue with their "choice" of going to a future Palestine.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:14 AM

53. The DVD...

 

... of "The Color Purple" has Hebrew subtitles.

Apparently Ms Walker's principles don't apply to the lucrative business of video royalties.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #53)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 11:03 AM

57. Boycotting the hebrew language is w/o question an attack on Jews, not Israel/Israelis/Zionists

Not surprising in the least, considering the vile people and organizations connected to the BDS movement and their odious cause. These bigots are well aware Hamas and the PLO intend to create their own apartheid states in Gaza and the W.Bank, free of Jewish apes and pigs they want dead.

Sickening.

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Response to shira (Reply #57)

Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:49 PM

65. Actually, I think it was Israel who created the "apartheid state" in Gaza...

Ariel Sharon decided that the settlers had to go and they were withdrawn, all without any Palestinian involvement of any kind.

Presumably if you actually regard this as an instance of ethnic cleansing you would have no problem with IDF officers being charged with crimes against humanity in the Hague?

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #65)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:00 AM

70. So ... to sum up...

 

Israel unilaterally ending occupation in Gaza is apartheid? When they end the occupation in the West Bank, will that be ethnic cleansing?

Tell me, is there ANYTHING Israel can do that you won't see as evil?

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #70)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 07:48 AM

74. I regard it as rather ridiculous myself...

but the poster before me seemed to be arguing that withdrawal of the settlements from the West Bank would constitute ethnic cleansing - or so I gathered from her "judenrein" comment.

The obvious point I was making was that Israel unilaterally withdrew the settlements from Gaza, and so if this really did amount to ethnic cleansing, the IDF would be as guilty of that particular crime as anyone.

It all comes, I suppose, of wasting a perfectly viable ironic comment on the sort of doggerel that that particular poster serves up on an ad nauseam basis.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #74)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 09:06 AM

76. Do you agree with Walker and the BDS movement that there's apartheid within Israel? n/t

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #65)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:07 AM

71. and the fantasy story continues.......

Ariel Sharon decided that the settlers had to go and they were withdrawn, all without any Palestinian involvement of any kind.

here are just a few historical facts/evidence for those poor fools who might actually believe what you wrote:
_____

during the days previous to the withdrawal as the plans were drawn up, the PA was very much involved so the forces that were being moved in would not clash with the PA forces in the area. further more with busses loaded with jewish settlers and thousands of soldiers in the settlements a "target rich environment" for hamas and friends would be very tempting...yet not a single mortar, kassam or bullet was fired.

seems there was an agreement between the forces on that level as well.

lots of discussion about the green houses the infrastructure and the buildings, what to leave and what not to: In the end the greenhouses and their infrastructure was left, the individual housing units destroyed, some general buildings left and for propaganda purposes the synagogues were left standing (great views of them being burned down after the withdrawal).

so that was what actually transpired during the withdrawal. The fact that sharon decided to withdraw the settlers without asking permission from the PA, is rather an absurd point, since that was the mantra from the PA/EU/US/ progressives for years, nor was there any complaints from them during the process itself. The fantasy stories only came after the fact when the Palestinians instead of trying to make some kind of club med out of it, used it to further develop their rocket program. Seems there were so upset that sharon didn't ask them publicly if they could leave, the Palestinian were/are so upset they just had to try to kill israelis

its a great tale, but only good for the naive and simple or for those who need to blame the israelis for the PA failures

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #65)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 06:44 AM

73. Israel created every evil. Don't sell them short on only apartheid & ethnic cleansing. n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #78)

Thu Jun 21, 2012, 10:47 AM

79. Very weird argument, even for Abunimah

He is trying to make a point, apparently, that Walker is not boycotting Hebrew translations of her book but rather Israeli publishing companies doing so - but who other than an Israeli publishing company would be interested in translating her books into Hebrew? Israel is the only country where Hebrew is the dominant language.

Really odd, I think, that instead of a "hats off to Alice Walker" post (like Mondoweiss) he decided to accuse JTA and Ha'aretz of "distorting Alice Walker's position" - even though about a hundred news outlets (NY Times, Daily News, Huffington Post) reported the story exactly the same way (with a similar headline).

I am starting to think that this is part of his MO. He likes to be able to give the appearance of a scoop, or a "gotcha" moment of some kind. Remember all the work they put into "outing" that fake lesbian Syrian blogger - until it turned out to be the work not of some kind of pro-Israeli "hasbarista" but rather a somewhat deranged pro-Palestinian activist fellow from the UK. Then they sort of dropped the concern.

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