Netanyahu's Cabinet Proves: Abbas Was Right

[Little Tich]

Source: Haaretz

The smoking gun is the prime minister's plan to legalize four more outposts in the West Bank.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, in a desperate speech at the United Nations, accused Israel of a systematic violation of the Oslo Accords and a stubborn attempt to finally do away with the two-state solution. By coincidence, Israel’s response came the same day: authorization for illegal outposts in the West Bank, which proves the justice of Abbas’ claims.

The message from a government that whitewashes additional outposts is unambiguous: yes to continued occupation, no to a two-state solution. There’s no other way to interpret it.

In responding to a petition by rights group Yesh Din, the state said it intended to legalize all the outposts in the Shiloh area. This region amounts to six square kilometers and four outposts – Adei Ad, Kida, Esh Kodesh and Ahiya.

The area contains hundreds of unlawfully built houses, some of which were put up on private Palestinian land. No fewer than 150 files relating to illegal construction have been opened against the residents of Adei Ad alone, but over 16 years only five enforcement measures have been taken. Now the government intends to reward these lawbreakers and encourage others.

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.678500

[Nitram]

1. I'm sure King David can explain this away... nt

[King_David]

2. What do you mean by that?

Have you got a question?

What's it got to do with me ?

Have you ever spoken to me? LOL


What a weird post....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. Not as weird as your deflection from the OP,

but what else is new?

[6chars]

12. You aren't an "explain it away" kind of guy

You have thoughtful informed posts and seem to be pretty sophisticated and empathetic. That was a weird post.

[King_David]

13. Also hit and run....

[Nitram]

15. Neither meant to hit you nor run away from you, David

Just that I've noticed you are usually pretty quick to defend Israel from all criticism. A light-hearted poke, if you will.

[King_David]

16. No problem ....

I don't defend Netanyahu nor settlers or the settlement projects

[Nitram]

17. Then I mistook you for another. My apologies. nt

[BillZBubb]

34. Nor do you ever speak out against them...

[King_David]

35. You're hardly objective

Last edited Fri Oct 2, 2015, 10:36 PM - Edit history (1)

LOL

[King_David]

37. What a weird argument...

Are you making some kind of point about something?

I have never seen you say anything positive about Jews... Should we conclude and insinuate the same evil about you that you're insinuating about me?

[BillZBubb]

40. Trying to play the anti-Semitism card is pretty pathetic.

My point was very clear.

[King_David]

41. I don't see any antisemitism cards

Your accusation was clear and so was my reply.... Mine unlike yours was not an accusation.

You're in no position to judge anyone in this group .

Your bias is pretty clear too.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

43. Neither are you, dave, in any position to judge.

But has that ever stopped you?

[geek tragedy]

3. of course he was right. Oslo was never designed to create a Palestinian state, it was designed

to make the Palestinians quiescent in the face of eternal occupation and domination by a foreign army.

People talk about the two-state solution as if the one-state solution hasn't been in progress for the past 50 years.

We're approaching the penultimate stage of the one-state solution--official annexation and apartheid.

The ultimate stage will be the ending of apartheid, and the dissolution of the state of Israel, to be replaced by a binational, secular state.

Palestinian nationalism and Zionism will share the same funeral pyre.

[King_David]

4. So you're opinion is completely 180% different to Bernie Sanders

Who supports 2 States ....

[geek tragedy]

5. Well, I support eating as much and whatever I want as a means to attaining

a perfect physique, but that doesn't mean I envision that plan working out.

Sanders is a politician, and very, very, very, very few politicians are going to speak the truth about I/P: a Palestinian state is a physical as well as a political impossibility not only today, but 10 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now.

I understand why he adopts the standard dodge on I/P--it's the same one held by virtually every politician in the Democratic party and until recently has been the one held by most Republicans.

The question is not one-state solution vs two-state solution, it's whether the Israelis are going to try to rerun the 1948 Nakba/1990's Slobo Milosevic playbook and forcibly expel Palestinians from the west bank so they can dodge the mathematical status of an apartheid state.

And, some of our 'liberal' supporters of Israel at DU have in fact defended ethnic cleansing as an appropriate 'solution' to the Palestinian 'problem.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=65930

Note that there is explicit racism in that thread, with people actively defending the idea of genocide/ethnic cleansing to be committed against the Palestinians.

And then clutching their pearls and act as if it's a crime to suggest that supporting anti-Palestinian genocide means one is not a liberal. Because obviously ethnic cleansing and genocide are okay for Israel to do, and one is an anti-Semite if one disagrees.

Which just shows how corrosive support of Israel is to people's values. In the end, supporting an apartheid, racist state turns one into someone who supports the worst sorts of human rights abuses.

So, that's where this is going, and it's just as well that Israel and Zionism will not deserve to be saved at the same time they cannot be saved.

[King_David]

8. So in other words , besides all the waffle in the post...

Your views on IP are completely opposite to those of Bernie Sanders and indeed the Democratic Party.

[geek tragedy]

9. No, they are not completely opposite.

They are certainly not 100% in line with anyone's, but my views are well within the mainstream of the Democratic party re: Israel.

My views tend to be more opposite Ted Cruz and Netanyahu's fellow travelers in the Republican party.


http://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/democrats-israel-palestine-gallup-poll-115419

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-04-15/bloomberg-politics-national-poll-finds-deep-partisan-split-on-israel-and-iran

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-losing-democrats-cant-claim-bipartisan-us-support-top-pollster-warns/


Israel is a rightwing cause, and those liberals who support it, support it despite the fact that they're liberals, whereas ALL elected Republicans support it because they, like most Israelis, are rightwingers who dislike Arabs. (note that, per my link above, some self-described liberals are also virulently racist towards Arabs, which correlates with their outspoken support of Israel).

Also, spare us all--please--your spamming of the argument from authority fallacy by pointing out Bernie Sanders as a supporter of Israel and claiming that criticizing Israel makes one 100% in disagreement with Bernie Sanders.

[King_David]

10. Your views on Israel, Zionism

BDS , Apartheid state etc etc etc

Are absolutely nothing like any Democratic Party candidate and absolutely nothing like Obamas views and absolutely nothing like Bernie Sanders view and absolutely nothing like any Democratic Party policy.

I volunteer on Democratic Party campaigns and if anyone expressed such views on Israel that would be their last day on the campaign.

[geek tragedy]

11. that doesn't mean very much.

As I said, some Democrats' are no different than Republicans when it comes to Israel, war, anti-Arab racism, etc.

Feel free to stop hiding behind arguments from authority and debate the viability of a two-state solution based on facts as they exist.

[King_David]

14. Your aggressive rhetoric leaves no room for that

Always a good read though.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

20. Run, rabbit, run...

[azurnoir]

19. Bernie has never given an in depth analysis of the situation in all of it's aspects

what he said so far is pretty boilerplate political speak, nor has he said anything one way or the other about BDS either, then of course there is his interview with Ezra Klein wherein he would not say whether or not he was a Zionist, something you attribute to his apparent fear of antisemitism due to a condemned interview with a very impaired sounding Diane Rehm where she stated he was a dual Israeli/American citizen, something that is not true , myself I differ on that as Bernie has not hesitated to say he is a Jew nor does he seem to fear much, in fact the very premise of the thread you posted that on would beg to differ

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=114025

[King_David]

21. BDS ? You think Bernie

The first Jewish president of the USA would support a proven antisemitic and recently homophobic movement like the BDS ?

That's ludicrous and slanderous.....


If you're hoping Bernie Sanders will be antiZionist or anything but pro Israel as he is.... I think you better find a different candidate .... Because Bernie ain't your man and you should be dissaponted as Mondoweiss and Juan Cole are.

[azurnoir]

22. Bernies not my man, well okay then

[King_David]

23. If you're a single issue person on IP anti-Israel

pro BDS and antiZionist... Like a poster we have in this group... Then no Bernie is not your man.... Correct.

[azurnoir]

26. actually I don't know of any single issue posters in this group that are ProPalestinian

perhaps you should look round DU a bit more

[King_David]

28. Ha ha that's funny

[azurnoir]

29. Name one

[geek tragedy]

30. Funny, you don't post on subjects other than Israel, so how would you know

who's a single-issue voter?

Spoiler alert: anti-Israel single-issue voters would sit out most elections because the vast majority of elections are Democrats trying to prove they love Israel just as much as the Republicans, or in the case of primaries, Democrats trying to out-Israel each other.

[King_David]

31. In DU I could be seen as being a single issue Democratic Party supporter,

That being because I post here in this group.

( I participate in many forums , a real estate and designer one being my favorite actually )

But even with this single issue I'm very comfortable supporting Bernie.

[azurnoir]

25. go on keep putting words if that is the way you choose to go :)

[King_David]

24. Keep deluding yourself about that if it makes you feel better about your chosen candidate...

LOL

Meanwhile us traditional mainstream Jewish American Zionists have no problems supporting Bernie .

Juan Cole and Mondoweiss and other anti"Zionists" think he's going to be a very big problem for their view and have been relentlessly trashing him.

[azurnoir]

27. I'm not deluding myself about anything

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

32. As a so-called "traditional mainstream Jewish American Zionist" do you find it disgusting how

Bibi Netanyahu, and the right wingers in Israel, have corrupted zionism into a dark and sinister creature: a parody of what it once was?

[azurnoir]

39. .......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/www.scn.org/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=372957&mesg_id=373095

[Little Tich]

6. I agree with you 100%. n/t

[azurnoir]

18. +!

[oberliner]

33. It's not really a one-state "solution" if it doesn't solve anything

The whole idea is that there is a problem in I/P that needs to be solved.

Certainly you would agree with that.

So the question is, how should we solve that problem?

People like Bernie Sanders believe that the way to solve the current problem is a two-state solution where “Israel has a right to exist in security, and at the same time the Palestinians have a state of their own."

The current problem, then, would be solved - thus qualifying it as a solution - in that Palestinians would have their own independent state and Israel would be secure.

Right now, neither of those things are true - therefore the problem still exists. We obvious don't have a "one-state solution" because the problem has not been solved.

If you think the best way to solve the problem would be for all of the land that is currently Israel and the Occupied Territories become one country - so that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have their own independent state, then that would be a one-state solution.

Personally, I think that would create as many problems as it would solve, which is why smart liberals like Bernie Sanders support the two-state solution instead.

[geek tragedy]

36. The problem is that the legal status of Jerusalem, the West Bank, and every

living and future Palestinian is unresolved.

There needs to be a definitive answer to all of these open questions so everyone can move on with their lives.

The Palestinians need to belong to a state where they have representation and full citizenship.

Jerusalem and the West Bank can't fester eternally as 'disputed' territories.

The two-state solution would have been the preferable approach, no doubt.

But, it's no longer viable, plausible, possible.

The Israelis strongly, and in many quarters, violently oppose any withdrawal from the West Bank and Jordan Valley, let alone a full one.

And the Palestinians have nothing they can offer the Israelis in return.

So, not gonna happen.

[oberliner]

42. So what's the solution?

What would be the definitive answer to these questions that would allow for everyone to move on with their lives?

[geek tragedy]

44. A binational secular state that serves as the homeland for both peoples, recognizing all citizens as

equals, protecting the rights of minorities, etc.

Dismantling the checkpoints and the walls etc etc. Settlers and villagers in the West Bank living as fellow citizens under the same laws, with the same obligations and rights and protections.

Neither Muslim nor Christian nor Jewish, but respecting all three faiths.

That is the way forward.. The two-state solution requires going backwards and undoing a great many things that cannot be undone.

As long as Jews and Arabs view each other as rival tribes, this will continue.

Palestinian nationalism must be sacrificed. Zionism must be sacrificed.

There is no other way.

It will take decades. But it is the only logical path forward.

States that define their subjects and citizens on the basis of religion, race, ethnicity, or tribe inevitably descend into tyranny and injustice.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

38. kick