Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumStartup offering wind turbines that look like a tree and sound like one too
Wind turbines have been touted as one possible answer to global warming, but they're terrible for birds and bats, they're noisy, and they're an eyesore.
Now, a French startup is announcing the Wind Tree, a small, silent version that it says is ideal for cities.
Traditional wind turbines are not silent: a paper from 2008, "Sustainable Energy Choices for a Nation," cites that wind energy "will undoubtedly create noise, which increases stress, which in turn increases the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer." Not that any human deaths from wind turbine annoyance have been reported yet.
"The main advantage of our technology is that it works with a very small input of energy and turbulent energy," says NewWind founder Jerome Michaud-Lariviere. It can even produce energy when the wind is blowing at no more than two meters per second of wind.
http://www.haaretz.com/business/1.634315
marym625
(17,997 posts)Would be so nice to make the oil companies shut up about birds.
I am just as excited about the solar trees
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/solar-panels-dont-grow-trees-most-time-n231541
And more so about solar without water, tulips from Aora Solar
http://ethiopiaforums.com/ethiopia-adopts-israeli-aora-daynight-solar-power-system/22493/
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)The first part about birds and bats is a gross exaggeration of fact and what harm is done has been diminished greatly with new turbine designs.
The second part is simply a subjective opinion.
I think turbines are beautiful and whenever I look out and see them, especially if they are big ones, I see pride, progress, and responsibility.
Now SUVs are eyesores.... McMansions are eyesores... but turbines are like hybrids: evidence that maybe we aren't so terrible after all, maybe there's hope.
The trees are cute, but I doubt that they produce much power.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)I think they're really attractive - almost serene and soothing to watch.
mopinko
(70,074 posts)there is a new walgreens down the street from me that is energy negative. solar panels everywhere, and 3 small turbines along the street. sorta cylindrical blades. only about 20' tall.
those suckers spin ALL the time. the spot is good, across from a train track, close to the lake. lots of local turbulence to tap.
it tempts me to take up welding, so i could make a real crazy sculpture that twists in the breeze. i know there is enough wind up my fairly wide street that goes all the way to lake michigan, 6 blocks away.
i dont think i need to push my luck this minute, but.....
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)You know me and my background, and I love always finding solutions and I'm open minded to new things.
Also, smaller scale distributed solutions are more likely to be adoptable by individuals and not depend on a utility company.
But the bird bat eyesore arguments rub me the wrong way, the article would have stood on its own without that preface.
OBTW, Happy New Year!
Do you know about William and the Windmill?
mopinko
(70,074 posts)the thing that bit me, tho, was that he had to drop out of school over $80/yr. what would happen on that continent if they had free public education? blows my mind to think about it.
glad he go to go back to school. what a brave young man.
one of these days imma come out for one of your conferences.
Triana
(22,666 posts)....denigrating/putting down other types of wind-generated energy ie: windmills.
Not a great sales tactic if that's what it is. I think the birds and noise claims are bunk. Airplanes kill more birds than windmills and no one gripes about airplanes. And windmills are SILENT. I've seen fields of them in Rio Vista CA and they are not only beautiful, but quiet. The emus, cows, and sheep don't mind them at all. And neither do I.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I have pictures but don't want to post, but on one day the nacelle and blades to one were on the ground, about to be hoisted to the top of the mast, and my guests could walk right up and touch the blades which are so big you can walk INSIDE of them!
And they really aren't noisy, even standing right under them.
The ambient "whoosh" happens when there's wind and ambient wind noise, so it pretty much blends in.
eppur_se_muova
(36,257 posts)FBaggins
(26,727 posts)Traditional wind turbines simply aren't that unattractive... and these can't produce enough power to make them worth it (hundreds of individual generators far too close to the ground).
mopinko
(70,074 posts)i was told repeatedly that i couldnt tap the wind where i am, because i couldnt build a 50' tower. but there is a walgreens store hear here that has 3 small mind, sorta cylindrical windmills that are only about 20' high. they spin like mad.
they are cited in a spot where there is a lot of local turbulence. i am 6 blocks from lake michigan, on a fairly wide street that goes all the way to the lake. there is enough wind here that a lot of the trees are bent toward the lake.
if i had the money right now, i would be putting them up. i KNOW there is enough wind here for the right machine to harvest.
and i have seen some very artful turbines. there is a guy here who make vertical, cylindrical turbines that are just beautiful.
i'll try to dig up some pics.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)The fact that there are locations that are exceptions doesn't change the fact that height makes a big difference in general for wind power. But more importantly... the fact that someone put a windmill of a particular design somewhere... doesn't mean that it's effective.
but there is a walgreens store hear here that has 3 small mind, sorta cylindrical windmills that are only about 20' high.
They're actually 35 feet high and don't produce much of the electricity for the location (and they aren't taller because of a city ordinance, not because that's the ideal height). The solar panels are the big deal along with the significant energy savings from drilling 50+ stories into the ground for geothermal (and extreme efficiency of the design) ... the windmills are mostly for show (just as these "trees" would be).
i'll try to dig up some pics.
I've seen it (and love it). The update that I'd like to see is a photo from near-year-end of the metrics monitor that they have inside the door.
mopinko
(70,074 posts)yes, all things being equal, a tall tower is better.
but seriously, the lake effect wind here is strong, and since it gets funneled around but short buildings, they HAVE TO BE eddies that are perfectly usable.
i think you are making the perfect the enemy of the good.
and i stand corrected that there are only 2. and evanston ordinances come as no surprise to me. the stupid can get thick there.
Piedras
(247 posts)Sporting two wind turbines, nearly 850 solar panels and a geothermal system burrowed 550 feet into the ground, Walgreens Net Zero store is believed to be the nations first net zero energy retail store, anticipated to produce energy equal to or greater than it consumes.
Wish I knew how to include the YouTube(s) about the store and its windmills at the above link.
those puppies are almost always spinning like crazy. this is not far from me. when my financial life settles down some, i am def gonna look into some small wind. i KNOW i can put it on my roof, and be rewarded.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)DU's posting interface is smart enough to know how to deal with them. Just go to the YouTube video itself and copy the address from your browser. Preview to check... and you're done.
This you-tube.com/watch?v=KWlx1XFAvDc (minus the extra hyphen) ... becomes this:
mopinko
(70,074 posts)on a windy day those suckers spin so fast you cant see the blades.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)or ones that are quite similar looking.
That's about a 10kw generator, but you can't just say "they're spinning... so they're producing 10kw". That rating is for wind speeds in the 25-30 mph range. Three things to note there:
* They'll spin at almost any wind speed, but they aren't producing anything (that is... the generator doesn't engage) until wind speeds are above 5-6mph. They're just spinning for show.
* They'll produce a tad more than 10kw at higher wind speeds, but they're in the 10-12 kw range all the way between 25mph and 55mph (when they cut out).
* Speeds below 25mph cost you generation at a fairly steep discount. At 15 mph it's only producing 2kw. At 20mph it's only generating half of the rated level (5kw).
mopinko
(70,074 posts)it is close, but there are closer walgreens stores that i usually frequent.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)Here's a model that seems closer in size.
http://www.allsmallwindturbines.com/images/uploads/turbine_data_sheet/data_sheet_61.pdf
Note.... I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with Walgreens doing this. Yes, the windmills are largely for show, but if it has a positive impact on others (as with you considering greener options for your own home)... then that has value.
For your own use, pay close attention to those power curves and see if you can measure wind speeds at your location. The right design can make a big difference.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Billed as being the most efficient small wind turbines, I like them very much.
In fact, I'm sitting on a $10,000 energy commission incentive, part of which could go toward the cost of one of these.
For a big Walgreens, I suppose one could call them "just for show", but in the right locations they could have a reasonable ROI.
http://www.wingpowerenergy.com/products/wind/
mopinko
(70,074 posts)they are not far from the lake, and on a wide street across from a train track. some day i am gonna wait and see if the train gives the a spin.
although the wind is not why they call it the windy city, it is, indeed, a windy city.
if they put these puppies between those tall buildings downtown they would spin at top speed all day and all might. harness the hawk!!
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Walgreens had done a lot with energy, they have an EV charger at one location in town, hundreds more nationwide.
Wing Power Energy in Mass made the turbines, I feel like giving them a call.
Walgreens Debuts First Net Zero Energy Retail Store in Evanston, Ill.
December 31st, 2013
Located at 635 Chicago Ave. in Evanston, Ill and sporting two wind turbines, nearly 850 solar panels and a geothermal system burrowed 550 feet into the ground, Walgreens celebrated the official opening of what is believed to be the nations first net zero energy retail store, anticipated to produce energy equal to or greater than it consumes.
As we celebrate the grand opening, we begin a one-year effort to operate a retail store that will generate more energy than it consumes. Using the best technologies available, we believe we can accomplish our goal of having the first net zero energy retail store in America, said Mark Wagner, Walgreens president of operations. Currently, we have facilities that utilize wind turbines, solar installations and geothermal technologies. This is the first time we are bringing all three of these technologies and many more together in one place.
Walgreens plans to generate electricity and reduce its energy usage in the store by more than 50 percent through several technologies including:
--nearly 850 roof-top solar panels, generating enough energy to power 30 Illinois homes for a year;
--two 35-foot-tall wind turbines, using Lake Michigan breezes to generate enough power to offset annual greenhouse gas emissions from 2.2 passenger vehicles;
--geothermal energy obtained by drilling 550 feet into the ground below the store, where temperatures are more constant and can be tapped to heat or cool the store in winter and summer;
--LED lighting and daylight harvesting;
--carbon dioxide refrigerant for heating, cooling and refrigeration equipment;
--and energy efficient building materials.
http://www.wingpowerenergy.com/walgreens-debuts-first-net-zero-energy-retail-store-in-evanston-ill/
Daylight harvesting: we used to call them skylights!
mopinko
(70,074 posts)dont have the money at the moment, but if my divorce comes out good, it might be a smart investment.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...you'll remember that it was work related, wind and solar. I can check with my friends about any incentives in your city or state.
In California there was an energy commission program for small wind and fuel cells, one dollar/watt of nameplace capacity up to $10,000/meter.
I locked in reservations and then they pulled the list of approved turbines which changed the whole dynamics of it.
Anyway, $10,000 to put toward a 10kW turbine can go a long way!
I'll ask my buddy Glen.
mopinko
(70,074 posts)and i dont know if they renewed them. not expecting this to be a big priority for rauner. unless he has a friend in the biz, that is.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Power instead of the Iraq war we would really be ahead of the game. The Republicans has fought alternative power sources just like they have on climate change and we are falling behind.