Storing hydrogen underground could boost transportation, energy security

[OKIsItJustMe]

https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/underground_hydrogen/

Sandia Labs News Releases
December 9, 2014

[font face=Serif][font size=5]Storing hydrogen underground could boost transportation, energy security[/font]

[font size=3]LIVERMORE, Calif. — Large-scale storage of low-pressure, gaseous hydrogen in salt caverns and other underground sites for transportation fuel and grid-scale energy applications offers several advantages over above-ground storage, says a recent Sandia National Laboratories study sponsored by the Department of Energy’s Fuel Cell Technologies Office.

Geologic storage of hydrogen gas could make it possible to produce and distribute large quantities of hydrogen fuel for the growing fuel cell electric vehicle market, the researchers concluded.

Geologic storage solutions can service a number of key hydrogen markets since “costs are more influenced by the geology available rather than the size of the hydrogen market demand,” said Sandia’s Anna Snider Lord, the study’s principal investigator.

The work, Lord said, could provide a roadmap for further research and demonstration activities, such as an examination of environmental issues and geologic formations in major metropolitan areas that can hold gas. Researchers could then determine whether hydrogen gas mixes with residual gas or oil, reacts with minerals in the surrounding rock or poses any environmental concerns.

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[TexasProgresive]

1. My question is always the same

Where does this hydrogen come from and what was the energy cost to get it?

[OKIsItJustMe]

2. There are various sources

Today, hydrogen is commonly produced from natural gas.

Hydrogen can also be produced by splitting water. If (for example) you have a large wind farm (I believe Texas has one or two) and the wind is blowing well, and you’re generating more electricity than your people currently need (or than the grid can carry) what will you do with that?

One option is to split water to make hydrogen. If you store it, you can use it to generate electricity some time when the wind isn’t blowing as well, or… you could sell it for use driving automobiles, or…

[nationalize the fed]

3. The Japanese are doing what the US could do

RE: Hydrogen production.

Hydrogen fuel becomes a practical reality

The launch of the UK’s first commercial-scale hydrogen production and refuelling facility powered by solar energy heralds the dawn of an era of true carbon-free fuel.

The gas will be generated at Honda UK's manufacturing plant in Swindon at the rate of 20 tonnes per year using a process called solar hydrolysis...
http://www.shdlogistics.com/news/view/hydrogen-fuel-becomes-a-practical-reality

ITV Presenter Rebecca Broxton walks through the new Honda SolarPark in Swindon, UK

Honda's Swindon UK factory is at ~51 Degrees North Latitude, which is above Montana. If Honda can do this in the UK - EVERY STATE IN THE US CAN DO IT TOO

Once the solar panels have paid for themselves, how much does it cost to produce a kilogram of Hydrogen?

[happyslug]

4. Notice this is the storage of GASEOUS Hydrogen NOT Liquid Hydrogen

Density of hydrogen at Standard temperature and Pressure (0 °C and 101.325 kPa) is
.08988 grams per liter (Kilogram per Cubic meter or 1000 grams per Cubic Centimeter) or .00008988 grams per cubic centimeter.

Hydrogen Density as a liquid, at Hydrogen's melting Point of 20.28 K (?423.17 °F/?252.87°C) is
0.07099 grams per Cubic Centimeter.

Hydrogen Density as a SOLID at its melting point of 14.1 K or lower (-259.14 C), is 0.0763 grams per cubic Centimeter.

Thus we are looking at a gas that take up a lot of space.

For comparison the Density of gaseous Oxygen at standard temperature and pressure (0 °C and 101.325 kPa) is 1.429 g·L?1 (Grams per liter). i.e. 18 times larger then Hydrogen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen

Could you store Gaseous Hydrogen under ground? First thing you get around the main problem of storing Hydrogen today, a Liquid Hydrogen atom is so small it leaks right through the wall of any other element at a rate of about 1% per day.

Leakage of hydrogen from containers and pipelines is expected to be 1.3–2.8 times as large as gaseous methane leakage and approximately 4 times that of air under the same conditions.

http://www.aidic.it/lp2013/webpapers/36rigas.pdf

Because of its small size, its small molecular weight and its low viscosity, hydrogen can cause a problem with respect to the propensity of the gas to leak at a larger molecular flow rate than other gases. Diffusion in small amount is even possible through intact materials, in particular organic materials, which may lead to gas accumulation in confined spaces. This holds for the liquid state.

Leakage rates are by a factor of 50 higher than for water and by a factor of 10 compared to nitrogen. The addition of an odorant or colorant would ease the detection of small leaks; however, this is not practicable in most situations, and not feasible for LH2.

http://www.hysafe.org/download/997/BRHS_Ch1_Fundamentals-version%201_0_1.pdf

Liquid hydrogen has less energy density by volume than hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline by approximately a factor of four. This highlights the density problem for pure hydrogen: there is actually about 64% more hydrogen in a liter of gasoline (116 grams hydrogen) than there is in a liter of pure liquid hydrogen (71 grams hydrogen). The carbon in the gasoline also contributes to the energy of combustion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

Liquid Hydrogen requires complex storage technology such as the special thermally insulated containers and requires special handling common to all cryogenic substances. This is similar to, but more severe than liquid oxygen. Even with thermally insulated containers it is difficult to keep such a low temperature, and the hydrogen will gradually leak away. (Typically it will evaporate at a rate of 1% per day).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety#Leaks

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/MayJun00/MS492.htm

The 1% Leakage rate is for LIQUID Hydrogen, Gaseous Hydrogen is much larger and thus easier to store. The downside we are looking at storage a VOLUME of Gas that is 20-30 times what we are storing today as Liquids i.e. gasoline and diesel fuel. (Gasoline, on a VOLUME basis has more energy then a liter of Liquid hydrogen).

Sorry, storage of Gaseous Hydrogen is best something done on a temporary basis, i.e to store hydrogen not sold for a day or two or maybe a week but it may just be more economical just NOT to produce the Hydrogen till it could be sold.

[nationalize the fed]

5. Ionic compression for liquid h2

Sorry, storage of Gaseous Hydrogen is best something done on a temporary basis, i.e to store hydrogen not sold for a day or two or maybe a week but it may just be more economical just NOT to produce the Hydrogen till it could be sold.

Tell Mike Strizki, of Scientific American fame

Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever
A New Jersey resident generates and stores all the power he needs with solar panels and hydrogen
June 19, 2008

EAST AMWELL, N.J.—Mike Strizki has not paid an electric, oil or gas bill—nor has he spent a nickel to fill up his Mercury Sable—in nearly two years. Instead, the 51-year-old civil engineer makes all the fuel he needs using a system he built in the capacious garage of his home, which employs photovoltaic (PV) panels to turn sunlight into electricity that is harnessed in turn to extract hydrogen from tap water.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

Strizki stores Gaseous H2 in propane tanks (and has since before 2008)

[OKIsItJustMe]

6. Boy, the people at our national research labs certainly are idiots, aren’t they?

It’s a wonder they can tie their own shoes. Any fool can see hydrogen storage is impossible!

Or, maybe, just maybe, we could give them the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe, just maybe mind you, you could store hydrogen underground.

Maybe, just maybe, they are aware of the difficulties.

…

But hydrogen gas is a challenging substance to store. “Because it’s a smaller molecule than methane, for example, it has the potential to leak easier and move faster through the rock,” Lord said.

…

With a salt cavern or hard rock cavern, “there are no permeability issues, there’s really no way anything can leak,” she said. “You can bring more product in and out, and that will, in the long run, decrease your costs.”

Hard rock caverns are relatively unproven; only one site holds natural gas. But salt caverns, which are created 1,000 to 6,000 feet below ground by drilling wells in salt formations, pumping in undersaturated water to dissolve the salt, then pumping out the resulting brine, are used more extensively and already store hydrogen on a limited scale, Lord said.

…

But, no. You’re must be right. They’re just idiots. I don’t know why I bother to even read their stuff before dismissing it.

Not that you’d be so silly as to want to, but, just in case:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2014.07.121