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Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:03 PM

Germany, Norway to share renewable energy across subsea cable

http://www.elp.com/articles/2012/12/germany-norway-to-share-renewable-energy-across-subsea-cable.html
Germany, Norway to share renewable energy across subsea cable
12/04/2012 | By Editors of Electric Light & Power/ POWERGRID International

Norwegian power grid operator Statnett, KfW IPEX-Bank and TenneT TSO GmbH signed an agreement to develop and construct a subsea cable between Germany and Norway.

The high-voltage direct-current interconnector will enable renewable energy to flow between Germany and Norway and help improve the distribution of offshore wind power between the two nations. The cable is expected to be complete by late 2018.

With this cable, wind energy and solar power can be exported from Germany to Norway when there is a surplus, while Norway can export hydropower to Germany when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow.

The integration of the Norwegian and German electricity markets, which are not currently connected, will also ensure greater grid stability in the two countries, increase market efficiency and stabilize prices between seasons, TenneT says.


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Reply Germany, Norway to share renewable energy across subsea cable (Original post)
OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 OP
eppur_se_muova Dec 2012 #1
OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #2
hunter Dec 2012 #5
eppur_se_muova Dec 2012 #10
wtmusic Dec 2012 #15
hunter Dec 2012 #17
wtmusic Dec 2012 #18
cprise Dec 2012 #3
OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #4
FBaggins Dec 2012 #6
cprise Dec 2012 #8
FBaggins Dec 2012 #11
OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #9
FBaggins Dec 2012 #12
OKIsItJustMe Dec 2012 #13
wtmusic Dec 2012 #16
cprise Dec 2012 #7
Franker65 Dec 2012 #14
FogerRox Dec 2012 #19

Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 03:12 AM

1. DC ?? nt

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Response to eppur_se_muova (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 08:48 AM

2. HVDC I assume

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
… For long-distance transmission, HVDC systems may be less expensive and suffer lower electrical losses. …

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Response to eppur_se_muova (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:00 PM

5. It has to be DC.

Underwater AC cables suffer huge losses because saltwater conducts electricity. The fluctuating electromagnetic field around an AC cable induces electric currents in the water and this energy is lost.

HVDC is a mature technology. We could probably put our entire power grid underground if we wanted to.

HVDC in Europe:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current

There's also a recent proposal to link Britain and Iceland.

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Response to hunter (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:54 PM

10. Aha, didn't know that! Makes sense. nt

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Response to hunter (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:27 AM

15. Above-ground HVDC already links the Pacific Northwest to Los Angeles

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Response to wtmusic (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:19 PM

17. I toured the Los Angeles station when they added the first thyristors.

I think HVDC lines are much better looking than HVAC. A North American HVDC grid to replace the current HVAC infrastructure would be a very desirable project if, and only if, no new coal power plants are built and existing coal plants shut down.

The coal industry is eager to bring cheap electricity into California from coal fired power plants in states with fewer environmental regulations. This is why I always oppose expansion of East-West transmission capacity in the Western States. For many years now the power companies have been trying to expand this capacity by claiming it is necessary to bring solar and wind energy from the desert into coastal urban areas. They are coal energy wolves wearing a renewable energy sheep skin.

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Response to hunter (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:43 PM

18. Interesting

I didn't know that about the East-West lines, although it certainly makes sense.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:44 PM

3. Storage

This is one of Germany's tentative steps toward storing/buffering wind and solar energy. I remember reading that Norway was testing their hydro storage capability for the ability to handle the extra stress of offering a pumped storage service to the rest of Europe.

Other countries are also looking at using their district heating systems to help level out the load from extra wind and solar production.

I can post links on this later.

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Response to cprise (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:56 PM

4. Interconnecting grids like this decreases the need for storage

The idea is that if the wind is not blowing well in one place (say Germany) it may be blowing well some place else (say… Norway) and vice-verse.

http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/news/news-2012/interconnected-european-grid-acts-as-storage
Interconnected European Grid acts as Storage for Renewably Generated Electricity

Hamburg/Freiburg, 13th August 2012. “The interconnected European grid increasingly often acts as storage for electricity from renewable sources”, stated Professor Bruno Burger from the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems in Freiburg. “During the week from 30th July to 5th August 2012, up to 5 GW electric power was exported from Germany to its European neighbours around midday, whereas electricity was imported in the morning and the evening. As the import-export balance for the whole week was almost zero, the interconnected grid is acting as storage capacity for electricity from renewable sources and simultaneously ensures that the load on conventional power plants remains almost constant.

The energy transition has led to increasing amounts of electricity from renewable sources being input into the German national grid. The fluctuations in solar energy, wind power, hydroelectricity and electricity from bio-fuels with time do not compensate each other completely. Therefore, additional pumped-storage hydroelectric plants are needed and both the grid itself and the number of connection points to neighbouring countries must be enlarged.

“The energy transition has been implemented very successfully with regard to electricity generation. During the first half of 2012, renewable energy sources contributed 25 per cent of the generated electricity”, explained Burger, who analyses the data from the European Energy Exchange EEX in Leipzig for Fraunhofer ISE. “Now we must intensify our efforts concerning storage and grid extension. This is much more economically viable than originally projected, according to an article which appeared in the ‘Financial Times Deutschland’ on 8th July 2012. The German Federal Network Agency (Bundesnetzagentur) has calculated that sixty per cent of the grid extension would have been needed anyway and that only forty per cent can be attributed to electricity from renewable sources.”

Electricity Production in Germany: Calendar Week 31


http://renewables-grid.eu/documents/docsstudies.html

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:21 PM

6. Not exactly.

You're absolutely correct in principle, but this case isn't an example of that.

This isn't Norway looking to balance out renewable generation in the two countries... this is Norway looking to increase their role as a storage provider and expand their customer base. This is something that they (correctly) recognize Germany desperately needs as their renewable penetration grows, but can't provide well on its own (with current technology and pricing).

They're essentially taking advantage of Germany's policy failures to turn a profit. And that's fine - this is the kind of thing that needs to happen (and rapidly) and it's only going to work if companies see a way to make a reasonable return on necessary investment capital.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:41 PM

8. Just what was it that caused you to believe

that the German government's intentions toward energy development were nationalist?

In an age when TPTB are wanting to pipe oil from Canada to Texas, electricity from Iceland to the UK and from Africa to Europe, your perspective on current events is kind of funny.

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Response to cprise (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:30 AM

11. Just what was it that caused you to believe...

... that my post was in any way predicated on Germany's intentions being "nationalist"?

Germany's energy issues are what they are (both good and bad). It doesn't matter whether that's due to poor central planning or individual decisions by independent individuals/businesses. The simple fact is that their rapidly increased renewables generation combined with the decline of "baseload" generation has resulted in an increased demand for storage. Storage that Norway (or companies in Norway if you prefer) can supply in greater quantity and at lower prices (even including transmission costs) than can be found within Germany.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:44 PM

9. “They're essentially taking advantage of Germany's policy failures to turn a profit.”

Um… are you suggesting this is due to Germany’s decision to drop nuclear power following the incidents in Fukushima Japan in March of 2011?

Do you mean that someone in Germany went back in time to lay the groundwork?

http://www.forum-netzintegration.de/uploads/media/PLAN_N_engl_03.pdf


Deutsche Umwelthilfe e.V. (DUH, German Environmental Aid) Fritz-Reichle-Ring 4, D-78315 Radolfzell
E-Mail: info@duh.de, Internet: www.duh.de, www.erneuerbare-ins-netz.de German edition published in November 2010, translation: Christine Schuldt, April 2011



3. German and European grid upgrades – a prerequisite for renewable energy expansion

More cross-border cooperation within Europe is essential for more efficient RE usage and to level out strong regional feed-in fluctuation from wind and solar energy sources depending on weather conditions. With a stronger more cooperative cross-border network, RE could be more effectively introduced into power plant planning, and make that energy more securely available. Further, new grids are needed for connection to new storage installations. These storage installations – pumped storage and caverns are possibilities – are likewise located at the periphery and mostly not in areas where demand is high. According to initial estimations, an EU-wide network would reduce the required storage volume by approximately half. Grid expansion is by far the least expensive option for RE integration. Any interim storage of energy is considerably more expensive.

In its current 10-year Network Development Plan, the European Network of Transmission Operators for Electricity ENTSO-E states that there is a considerable demand for new power lines. Within the EU, there is a total requirement for 42 000 km of new power lines, of which 20 000 km are for the integration of energy from RE sources. It is advisable to have 26 000 km for security of supply. Routes overlap partially. The German Energy Agency, dena, is working on estimating expansion demands for Germany. Due to its central location within Europe, it may be assumed that Germany will require several thousand kilometres of new extra high voltage lines. This large volume of expansion requires thinking within a pan-European framework about which routes and which technical options for a future overlay network are best placed to augment the intermeshed European three-phase network. Other options such as planning for infrastructure corridors or using the traction power network can also contribute to expansion.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorGer

http://theforeigner.no/pages/business/statnett-buys-into-norger-project/
Published on Thursday, 24th June, 2010 at 10:45

Norway’s national power grid company Statnett has acquired a 50 percent stake in the planned NorGer HVDC electricity cable project between Norway and Germany.

The project is designed to link the Norwegian and German electricity transmission grids via an interconnector, bringing mutual benefits to both countries, according to a company press release.

A 600 kilometre-long high voltage, direct current cable (HVDC) with a capacity of 1’400 MW is to be laid on the bed of the North Sea. The intention is to give Norway surplus energy based mainly on wind power, whilst Germany gets access to flexible and clean hydroelectric power at reasonable prices.

On the Norwegian side, the cable will come ashore in the Flekkefjord area in Vest-Agder council district, carrying power to Tonstad in Sirdal municipality via a 70 kilometre-long overhead power line.

In Germany, the cable will come ashore close to Wilhelmshaven on the North Sea coast. Converter stations for coupling to the respective countries’ power grids will also be built.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:44 AM

12. Yes, the decision to drop nuclear certainly plays a big role in this.

Do you mean that someone in Germany went back in time to lay the groundwork?

Did you read what you replied to? I agreed that improved transmission throughout Europe has the benefit of reducing the need for storage (or, better put, increases the plausible penetration of renewables before storage limitations cause problems). So a story about Europe planning for grid upgrades as renewable penetration grows really doesn't add anything to the conversation.

The second article you post proves my point... did you read it? This isn't a case of Norway and Germany using an interconnection so that variability in both countries flattens somewhat - it's a case of one country selling the other a service to reduce their variability. It made sense pre-Fukushima because Germany was well along the path to increased renewable penetration (at a faster pace than any other country in the world)... it makes even more sense today in light of Germany's policy decisions.

Norway doesn't need an interconnector to reduce the impact of renewables variability... they already have all the efficient storage they need to accomplish that. So much so, in fact, that they can afford to sell that excess storage to other nations. Since Germany needs it more than others (and because of the nuclear power cut, needs it more than expected), it's the most profitable option. The power they'll buy from Germany will be cheaper (because Germany must dump it), and the power they'll sell back will be more expensive (because Germany lacks as many options to meet their own demand in a crunch). Win-win.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:51 PM

13. Yes, I read all of it

This is a years old European effort, designed to help foster greater use of renewable electricity and was clearly not motivated by recent policy changes by Germany.

http://renewables-grid.eu/

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:06 PM

16. Greater use of renewable energy?

20% of the energy Germany imports from Norway will be generated by French/Swedish nuclear plants and 40% from coal.

Apparently Germany's energy shell game is still fooling some of the people, some of the time.

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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:31 PM

7. Yes they can probably get both

...load distribution and hydro pumped storage in the deal. Indeed, the excerpt you posted mentions both.


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Response to OKIsItJustMe (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:52 AM

14. No matter what, increased connectivity is a good thing

These interconnections give Europe a degree of flexibility. Ireland just got connected to the United Kingdom and can import/export now to continental Europe. Statistics do show that Germany has been historically dependent on energy imports. So a further connection to Norway can only be a good thing. Yet as was rightly pointed out, the efficiency of such connections to far off markets has to be questioned. Sometimes it just isn't worth the energy loss involved.

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Response to Franker65 (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:21 PM

19. HVDC is capable of moving electricity thoiusands of miles

HVAC, not so much.

Since AC has transmission loss of 7%, DC 3%......

Lets say you want to move 100 gigs 1000 miles..... do it with DC and you save on construction costs, and you save 4% on losses, or 4 gigs, the equivalent of 4 nuclear fission plants, 4 new plants might cost 10 to 15 billion each. Meanwhile the Atlantic Wind connection is slated to cost 5.5 billion. 350 miles long, 10-20 miles offshore from NJ to Virginia. Able to support 1700 4mw turbines. AWC would capable of moving 7 gigs.

Mw per mile per dollar totally works. TO be able to cut losses by 43%..... priceless.

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