Obama said in the SOTUS-

[digonswine]

something about keeping kids in school until they turn 18. I immediately thought it is a bad idea. Any thoughts?

[YvonneCa]

1. I think it's a great idea. Why should...

...we adults, responsible for our childrens' choices until they are 18, ALLOW them to leave school? Leaving school will hurt them and their future. Adults make those choices for kids until THEY are adults.

In addition, it will keep 16-18 year olds in a safe environment...where they aren't exposed to violence or the other ills of society at least until 18, so they have time to gain the maturity to handle it more wisely than a 16 year old would.

The 16 year limit was based on agrarian society, where kids were needed to work in the fields...we are long past those days in the 21st century.

Curious, what are your reasons for thinking it is a bad idea?

[digonswine]

3. I am in small-town Wisconsin-

It is not a bad concept--I just don't know that it would work. How do we actually keep them in school. Some kids are not meant for the school system beyond certain grades. They don't want to come. I agree that we adults are responsible for our kids' choices. I suspect that most parents of students that drop out at 17 do not like it so much. Parents do not have all the power over kids' choices.

How is this to be enforced? I am not saying it can't be done--but it can't be easy.

Other concerns--Will schools be pressured to invent more versions of diplomas? Some alternative programs are a joke.

If so, will it lead to a devaluation of "regular" high school diplomas?

What is the negative effect of having (even more) students in classes that do not want to be there?

So--I can't be sure it is the bad idea I called it--but I do not know if it is a good one.

[YvonneCa]

5. Thank you for the thoughtful...

...response. I would answer this way:

It is not a bad concept--I just don't know that it would work. How do we actually keep them in school. Some kids are not meant for the school system beyond certain grades. They don't want to come. I agree that we adults are responsible for our kids' choices. I suspect that most parents of students that drop out at 17 do not like it so much. Parents do not have all the power over kids' choices.

Adults who are committed can make it work. Parents don't always assert their power, but they need to start. Too bad if kids don't want to come. I taught 6th grade, and...believe me...they didn't always want to be there. But the law requires it and the adults make it happen. Age 16-18 is no different. Just different challenges that can be overcome.

How is this to be enforced? I am not saying it can't be done--but it can't be easy.

Never said it was easy. I think each district/community has to decide enforcement and what will work for them.

Other concerns--Will schools be pressured to invent more versions of diplomas? Some alternative programs are a joke.
If so, will it lead to a devaluation of "regular" high school diplomas?

That's already happening and is a concern. But it's a different problem...totally unrelated to 16-18 year olds being required to stay in school.

What is the negative effect of having (even more) students in classes that do not want to be there?

There are discipline issues in every grade. Educators just deal with them. There are already kids at every level who do not want to be there. Too bad for them.

So--I can't be sure it is the bad idea I called it--but I do not know if it is a good one.

Again, we disagree on this. But I thank you for your thoughtfulness on the issue.

[digonswine]

6. Thanks for the response-

can't address what you've posted now-but will do so tomorrow-Thanks.

[digonswine]

7. OK-I'll try now-

1. I agree about committed adults-if they did not do so before the kid is 16, it is unlikely they will do so after. I would disagree that not wanting to be in school at 17-18 is the same at the 12-13 range. Just for the record-I taught grades 5-12+ at a residential treatment center for males and females before counties stopped sending kids to us(no money!).


2. No--not easy--I want to know what enforcement techniques will actually work.

3. It is not unrelated to to 16-18 yr olds in school. If the state is made to "graduate" kids that do not fit into the general mold(s), it seems inevitable that there will be changes that make it easier to graduate-one way or another.

4." There are discipline issues in every grade." Discipline is becoming a bigger job for teachers. In my experience-there is nothing that can be done about an unruly student-unless it escalates to a certain degree. Admin tends to poo-poo the problems and let kids slide and get off without so much as an apology to the teacher. Again--just what I have seen-

I am quite certain that we agree that all kids should have the advantage of many years of public education. I just do not believe that all of these kids can benefit from it. It does not reflect reality-for me.

[YvonneCa]

8. I would guess that we agree on more than we disagree...

...on. It does sound as if we have had very different teaching experiences, and that does affect one's perspective. I'll just add a few clarifications from my POV...

1. While we both mentioned parental responsibility, I actually mean ALL adults, as opposed to just a student's parents. The whole 'It takes a village' thing. I believe adults in the community are responsible for creating a safe, secure place for ALL children and that it's not okay to falter just because they are 16-18 and it's a challenge.

2. My experience is with elementary/middle school kids, so I am not well versed on all the challenges with 16-18 year olds (although I raised two teenagers, so I have a few guesses ). Enforcing attendance was a major tool...partnering with local PD, SARB board to bring in parents, synchronizing school calendars in an area in order to clarify when ALL community kids should be in school and not be seen out and about. I would also think creating curricular interests that kids show up FOR is good...and creating alternate pathways to graduation (although, as you said, that creates an entire new set of issues to solve).

3. On graduation, I do think it is a different set of issues. But I don't think it is unsolvable at all.

4. I agree with what you said about discipline...and administrators. I just think it goes with the job. It will be a challenge for those teachers who have kids who don't want to be there or learn. But I think that is true at any grade. Teachers at every level...Kinder to 12...just have to deal with it. I DO wish we had more support, though.

I don't think "Some kids are not meant for the school system beyond certain grades" is right. You said you don't know if they benefit from it. That sounds like a concern for SP.Ed kids, maybe. I still see a benefit because at the least, they would be off the street (Title I School in tough neighborhood).

I think we agree on a lot. Where we don't, is probably because of different experiences in education.

Thanks for the discussion...

[mbperrin]

2. Texas already requires attendance through 18 and the student may attend until 22 if they wish.

At some point, and 18 seems reasonable, we need to get them to a GED or other program, because the only reason a 21 year wants to come to high school is to be near the customers he's selling drugs to.

Hope this helps.

[digonswine]

4. Can you tell me about the good or bad points-

regarding this in practice in Texas?

Thanks!

[mbperrin]

9. If a student leaves before 18, their driver's license is suspended.

Keeping them in school until they can at least sign legal contracts and such is a good idea, I believe.

But once you get students who are 21 going to school with 15 year olds, I have only seen negatives. I teach in a large urban school (3200+ enrollment) where 85% of our students qualify for free or reduced lunches and 20% are special education.

I had a case two years ago where a 21 year old told me to fuck myself because I told him to put his phone up and pay attention. He stormed out of class. A few minutes later, one of our campus police officers, who are sworn officers and wear guns, saw him urinating on the side of the fieldhouse. The officer got close and told him to stop what he was doing. Student pulled a knife and gave the officer, a high school classmate of mine, a 3" deep stab in the abdomen.

He was caught 3 weeks later in Fort Worth, 300 miles from here.

5 years ago, an assistant principal gave me an 8th period (last period) class composed of 12 20 and 21 year old males. He told me not to issue books, teach lessons, or do anything but keep them in the room until the final bell of the day rang, because they were all drug dealers selling in the bathrooms on campus, and he wanted to make sure they were away from their market during school hours. He told me (in front of them) that if the building caught fire to leave, but lock them in and leave them. After that year, I told him never to ask me to do that again. It was just too demoralizing for me.

So for me, overage students need to go to our local junior college and get their GED, which they can do at no cost.

The good point of course is that we are trying to get even those who had some troubles and had some problems to still be able to get their education. But I think the GED option does that well.

I do believe there are more problems than advantages to the current in-till-22 system in Texas. Hope this helps.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. I think its a great idea

I've always found it ridiculous that we ALLOW kids to leave school before they graduate when we know the negative LIFELONG effects of the failure to have a high school diploma.

[YvonneCa]

13. Yes. The key word there is...

...'allow.' We adults need to stop that.

[Fearless]

11. Thinking of some of the choices I made at 17-18 I think this is a good idea.

[DeSwiss]

12. ....

''That government is best that governs least.'' ~Thomas Jefferson