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Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:10 AM

My statement on Feminism

I think it would be grand to post this on HoF, but since evidently I'm one of the turds on their shit list, I can't. (I'm not inferring anyone else whose name appears on said shit list is a turd, BTW).

The reason I think it's a better fit there is because it would get the widest audience there among those who need to see this, but I think enough will anyway. My views on feminism are pretty much the same as NOW's statement of purpose. I realize that some of it is a bit dated, but this accurately reflects my views on the subject of gender equality pretty much in whole. You can find it here. I think everyone should read it.

http://www.now.org/history/purpos66.html

I believe in equality. I just do. I don't believe in just the things that benefit men, I believe in equal opportunity for everyone. I have a wife and a daughter and a son. I worry about the interests of my children far more than I do my own. Everyone deserves a fair shake in this world. Equal opportunity doesn't always mean equal outcomes. It means everyone gets the same chance to aspire to the same thing and everyone shares in the responsibilities that it takes to get there. I think that's fair. I think that's right.

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Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 17 replies Author Time Post
Reply My statement on Feminism (Original post)
Major Nikon Dec 2012 OP
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #1
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #4
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #2
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #3
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #6
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #5
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #7
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #9
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #10
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #11
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #12
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #13
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #8
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #14
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #16
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #15
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #17

Response to Major Nikon (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:50 AM

1. I believe in equality for men and women too. There are a lot of problems in society and men and

women are all suffering. There have been dramatic changes in our society and even the ones that were for the better (civil rights, etc.) cause stress as society has to adjust to the new rules. Some changes were for the worse, like the crappy way most workers are treated these days. It goes without saying those changes cause stress.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 04:59 PM

4. I agree. I think we are experiencing a dislocation much like he transition from agrarian to

Industrial society.

The fallout from that transition was huge, included arguably both world wars, and lasted over 50 years or so.

Thanks for weighing in, LL.

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Response to Major Nikon (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:09 PM

2. I believe in equality like I believe in disneyland.

When I walk through the gate, I'm willing to say, "here we are".

Not like belief in "nirvana"; an ill-defined goal that no one ever achieves.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:33 PM

3. I think the beginnings of the 2nd wave got it right

They made it crystal clear that the only thing they wanted was equality. They didn't expect privilege as an answer to privilege. They wanted equality in opportunity, not necessarily equality in outcomes. To that end they were enormously effective.

When I think of feminism, I think of people like Alice Paul, Coretta Scott King, and Betty Friedan, and many others who stood together and managed to get some incredible things accomplished.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:14 PM

6. They are my heroes too! I heard Coretta Scott King speak for the first time after her husband's

assassination, it was at the 4th of July on the Mall in DC. I have so much admiration for her.

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Response to Major Nikon (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:02 PM

5. To me, feminism means equality, too.

And as such, yes, I consider myself a Feminist. If I dig somewhere there's a photo of me (younger, less gray. Sigh.) at the March For Womens lives in DC in April of 2004, holding one of those "this is what a Feminist looks like" signs.

Scoff away, but there it is.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:15 PM

7. That's really cool!

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:23 PM

9. I hope you caught my reply to you in meta.

I meant what I said: your words, in particular, caused me to pause and recommit to being as empathic as I can on the topics that have caused so much angst of late. Thank you for your bravery. I'm listening to what you have to say.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:27 PM

10. Wow, thank you, I haven't seen it yet, I will go look! I made bread today instead of

being on DU all the time, I just kind of checked in here and there...wish I could send you a slice of the rye bread I just made, it's warm and delicious! One of these days they will make it so we can beam things through the internet, LOL...I can dream anyhow.

Thank you for the empathy. I'm recommitting to empathy for the men and just everyone in general on DU because most of us could use a little empathy.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:28 PM

11. That is TOTALLY where I'm at.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:08 PM

12. :)

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 08:37 PM

13. I just don't see much divergence with the feminists cause

I think we are both trying to get to the same place. Certainly there are those who I think use the feminist cause for nefarious purposes (not anyone here) just as there are those who have picked up the men's rights torch and used it nefariously. People need to understand there are demons on both sides of the divide, and not everyone's bullshit is 100% pure.

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Response to Major Nikon (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:22 PM

8. P.S. I've seen examples of unfairness towards men.

I had a good friend whose little daughter was taken away from him (a wonderful parent) and given instead to his ex-wife (a horrible, abusive parent) just because that's how it goes in family court. We were there to support him in court and I saw what he went through when his daughter was taken away from him. I never forgot that.

I've seen women, mostly young women it seems like, judge men only by their cars and the money in their bank accounts. Sickens me and I speak up when I see it.

I'll bet there are a lot more examples that I don't see because I'm female and don't have the same experiences men do so I don't have the same knowledge.

I remember wondering why my father was so angry when I was growing up. I thought maybe he was angry because he had to go to war and my mother got to stay home with us.

So I decided I was going to grow up and go in the Army. Because I realized it wasn't fair that he had to go to war and risk his life and we got to stay home. I thought maybe if I did that I could make things better between men and women.

It didn't work out the way I hoped. I got raped in the Army, got a lot of flack in general in the Army because some guys didn't think it was right for me to be there. I tried though. I really did.

I hate that men are supposed to be strong all the time and aren't allowed to be afraid or sad or incompetent at sports etc.

I want to understand what your experiences are. I can see some of the unfairness but there's no way for me to understand all of it.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 09:48 PM

14. Thank you for your service.

The kind of bullshit you went through should not be tolerated at all.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:27 AM

16. Thank you so much. I'm hoping we can all work together and build a better world

for all of us! I love your username because my Grandpa was a lumberjack, in NW Montana. He even won the lumberjack contest in Montana once, he was the best lumberjack in Montana! I remember watching him chop wood when I was a kid and he made it look so effortless, every strike of the axe sure and splitting the wood into perfect kindling for the wood stoves they had at the farm to burn for heat. Are you a real lumberjack? My Grandpa had heart attacks when he turned 40 and then he wasn't able to do that work anymore.

All the BS just kind of made me laugh because I thought, well, I was trying to take steps to make the world better, I was trying to do what I thought was right and people just got mad at me for it. I kept thinking, well, heck, I don't know what to do.

That's another thing I think is hard on men. The roles are changing so fast, no matter what you do, some people are going to say you are doing it wrong and be mad at you. I'm thinking both men and women are getting kind of beaten up, and sometimes men beat up other men and women beat up women too over all this. Boy you should see some message boards that are just about all women, the wars we have over whether it's okay to be a stay-at-home mom or a working mom would blow your mind. I've seen guys do it a little bit too, my father (who is an alcoholic with a lot of problems and a real mean streak because of the demons he's fighting inside) used to treat my BIL with real derision because he didn't earn a lot of money. But my BIL was such a gentle man, and a wonderful father, and a proud Democrat (my father is hard right) and he could grow anything you'd want to grow because he grew up on a farm, and I always admired him and thought he was a better man than my father.

Sorry to go on and on. I have a bad habit of being too chatty sometimes.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:51 AM

15. Hello! You have made a big impression on a number of people.

I am glad you also pointed out unfairness toward men. Sadly, some here treat it like a joke or that we are supposed to "man up" and don't see the irony in that statement.

I am very sorry to hear of your experiences in the Army. I wish you had known my father. He was in the Army and as an EEO at one assignment, and worked similar jobs at other bases. I also know, though I wasn't supposed to at the time (I was eavesdropping), he was part of the reason two men were drummed out of the military and took a trip to Kansas. They were rapists and were looking for the military's "Good Ole Boy" network. "Sadly", at least for them, they ended up under my father's watch. I won't say they didn't have a fair chance, because my father is very fair, but let's say the winds of fortune weren't even blowing when my father entered the picture. I wanted to share that because I want you to know there are some men who will and do the right thing (I know you know this, but I wanted a real world example). He actually got a sexual harassment course geared toward those just entering the base for training which was required. My mom had a little to do with that...shhh..that's a secret.

I think shared experiences make it more real for a number of people, even if it is just in an on-line forum such as this. There are those who never get it unless it happens to someone they love; fewer still are those that the example has to happen to them; then there are the misanthropes, and they really don't care who it happens to, including themselves. But I feel, the biggest majority of people, are sympathetic, and every now and again along come the empaths, who take you experience, make it a shared experience and pass on the lesson to others.

I have no idea if anything I said make in sense to anyone other than myself. I hope it did. I think I need a shower to wash off this very nasty, negative, hateful day.

Glad you are here! And even more glad you shared!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:36 AM

17. Thank you so much for sharing this! Your father was a real hero, I am proud to have served in the

same service as him! You know, I met some really noble people when I served and I can see your father was one of those truly noble men.



I think you are so right about how it's hard for us to understand where others are coming from until we are able to hear them. And that's hard sometimes because a lot of times people (including myself) don't communicate effectively.

I don't feel I did the wrong thing by exposing the bullying PM from "The Doctor." but I feel bad for him just the same. I feel bad for him because I think he is really hurting inside to have lashed out that way, and maybe he could have gotten some healing here but he was communicating by lashing out and people don't respond well to that, so the message doesn't get through. I think the message under all that lashing out was "I'm hurting, please help" but that got buried in the anger and couldn't be heard.

If things are going to get any better, we truly have to hear one another and communicate effectively and then respect one another as fellow human beings. We have to see each other as friends and not enemies.

I posted this a few days ago on DU and I know it's really sappy but I wanted to post here too because I think it's so profound and the message is stronger with the music somehow:

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