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Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:21 PM

Fellow "Sensitive" guys check in!

I can't be the only one who hates macho crap and doesn't suppress my tears.

28 replies, 4363 views

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Arrow 28 replies Author Time Post
Reply Fellow "Sensitive" guys check in! (Original post)
Odin2005 Dec 2011 OP
HuskiesHowls Dec 2011 #1
dipsydoodle Dec 2011 #2
daleanime Dec 2011 #3
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2011 #4
Taverner Dec 2011 #5
qb Feb 2012 #6
tech_smythe Feb 2012 #7
The Doctor. Feb 2012 #10
Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #8
The Doctor. Feb 2012 #9
Bonobo Feb 2012 #11
Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #12
Odin2005 Feb 2012 #13
tech_smythe Feb 2012 #14
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2012 #16
steve2470 Mar 2012 #15
radicalliberal Aug 2012 #17
lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #18
Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #20
loli phabay Aug 2012 #22
Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #23
loli phabay Aug 2012 #24
radicalliberal Sep 2012 #25
Warren DeMontague Sep 2012 #26
radicalliberal Sep 2012 #27
Warren DeMontague Sep 2012 #28
loli phabay Aug 2012 #19
Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #21

Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:27 PM

1. Definitely not. And I know I'm not the only one, either!! n/t

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:13 AM

2. Partly unassociated

I've had / got friends who you would regard as being ultra extreme versions of Vinnie Jones in Lock Stock etc for example but they still crack up like me when watching Its A Wonderful Life or the end of City of Angels for example. They're just hard : not macho. Being hard don't stop guys from being sensitive.

Over here , outside of their own circles , macho guys are often regarded as being complete nutjobs to be laughed at by the other 98% or so of the population.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 08:42 AM

3. That's not fair.....

You either get a least a little misty eyed when watching "It's a Wonderful Life", or you can't stand to watch it.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 12:16 PM

4. That's one of the reasons I avoid sad movies.

But the other is that there is plenty of sad shit in real life. I'd rather use the TV for escapist entertainment like whomping willows, spaceship battles (Pew!! Pew-pew!) and stuff asploding.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 04:12 PM

5. When I hear "sensitive men," my first question is 'Sensitive to what?'

 

Me? Define "macho crap." I'm ambivalent about sports, lift weights only because of vanity, and am about the least competitive person you'll ever meet.

That being said, I don't cry in public for the same reason I don't fart in public. No one wants to see or hear that. But hell, when the doors are closed? Yeah, I'd cry my eyes out.

Would I hug another man? If they were a really good friend, but a handshake suffices most of the time.

Do I want to sit around and talk about my feelings? FUCK NO! Why should I discuss the results of brain chemicals in action?

Would I resort to violence? Never - I just don't see the point.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Thu Feb 9, 2012, 11:20 AM

6. here

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Thu Feb 9, 2012, 02:21 PM

7. *raises hand*

 

tho it seems macho assholes get laid more...

that said I'm going towards the gay side, so I don't care.

more than a few good sci fi movies and shows have caused me to tear up

I am incapable of watching UP and not just ball my eyes out.
his memories of his wife tears me up, think of my failed marriage =
But I admit I wonder whats the point?
I'm sensitive and emotional, I was born this way. but I wonder why I should give half a crap about the other side if they're going to treat me like garbage before they even get to know me?

just a thought.

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Response to tech_smythe (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:35 PM

10. No, it's not "macho assholes" that get laid more...

 

It's "confident men" that do.

The problem is that many women can't distinguish between confidence and 'machismo'. By the time they've figured out they've fallen for a prime specimen of puffery, he's usually run off because he's terrified she'll learn there's really nothing there but testosterone and fluff.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Fri Feb 10, 2012, 06:04 PM

8. teeth.

it's probably all the stupid ancient metal fillings.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:29 PM

9. Does 'getting misty-eyed' at 'macho crap' count?

 

When I need to bring on the waterworks, I just think through this exchange:

"Give me your twenty strongest, and I will take them to Volturnum," the dragon said. But Yoritomo's troops were wounded, and his clan would die if they should go. Knowing his duty, he turned alone to the dragon. "I am my twenty strongest."

Every. Single. Time. I'm not even sure why.


Yes, even now. Can't help it for some reason. Of course other things get me as well. The one scene from 'Chicago' with the handkerchiefs and a few others... but only under the right circumstances. Bach and Skinny Puppy can do it too.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 02:50 AM

11. Macho has its place too.

It annoys me that men have come to devalue and even insult one of the most important things that brought men into being -their aggressiveness.

Like it or not, it is part of being a male.

It is sad that we have allowed testosterone to become an insult as in
"testosterone poisoning", etc.

Men should be full and complete people. They should cry and laugh and yes, occasionally be ready willing and able to kick ass.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:26 AM

12. Or chew bubble gum and kick ass

until we just ran out of bubble gum.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 02:13 PM

13. But in my experience the ones that act macho...

...are the ones that are insecure about their own masculinity.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 19, 2012, 03:43 PM

14. Oh believe me I don't have a problem with well placed violence

 

I have a problem with pointless, ill-placed violence.
usually macho assholes swagger around but to no purpose.
"look at me, grr im manly"

My confidence is in other places. like the kitchen, project room, or bedroom.
there "I'm a viking!"

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Response to tech_smythe (Reply #14)

Fri Mar 2, 2012, 01:08 PM

16. "that's where I'm a Viking!"


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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Fri Mar 2, 2012, 08:54 AM

15. Checking in, waves hi to my male colleagues nt

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Thu Aug 9, 2012, 11:11 PM

17. For all practical purposes, I'm still a newbie here at DU; and since I'm apolitical, ...

... I guess I should also be considered an outsider (with all the attendant suspicions).



Take a look at this photo ...



It was taken sometime during the first half of the last century. The 100th anniversary of his birth occurred just last month. Surely, he must have passed away by now. There is controversy over the time when he likely died.

Look at this man. What is your initial impression of him? He looks like he probably was a sensitive guy, I guess (if it could be said that sensitive guys can be recognized by their physical appearance). Well, he wasn't all that good-looking. Kind of drab in appearance. (Probably didn't score with the ladies.) He also looks rather scrawny. See how the sleeve of his jacket sags. In fact, his half-sister once said he "detested competitive team sports." Something must be wrong with guys who aren't interested in sports. Just a sissy, a wimp. So, he wasn't a real man. Probably just worked as a bank teller somewhere.

But wait, there's more ... It turns out that he was one of the greatest heroes of World War II -- even though, as a citizen of a neutral country, he wasn't a soldier. This scrawny Swede was Raoul Wallenberg, businessman turned civilian diplomat who saved the lives of tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews from the Nazi SS and the Hungarian Arrow Cross fascists. He definitely was a sensitive man. He also had great courage, as his compassion drove him to repeatedly risk his life to save others who had had no hope.

Regarding sensitive men whom I know personally, a close friend of mine played football in high school and still looks like a "jock." Great build. But he is a tender-hearted, empathetic guy who is easily moved to tears by the sufferings of others.




I'm amazed by what we men do to each other -- subjecting guys to one negative stereotype or another, putting other guys into confining boxes and whatnot ...

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Response to radicalliberal (Reply #17)

Fri Aug 10, 2012, 12:11 AM

18. Welcome to DU, and to the men's group. n/t

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Response to radicalliberal (Reply #17)

Fri Aug 10, 2012, 01:11 AM

20. here are some traits that I consider "manly", above and beyond sensitive, which is one:

compassionate; empathic; with a good sense of humor; not taking things too seriously--

free thinking, open minded, not determined to tell others how to live their lives or what personal choices they can make;

decent, fair, brave, like Mr. Wallenberg--- standing up for the underdog.

Able to think critically, and not mindlessly chained to tired, old, bitter, 2 dimensional dogma...

to name a few.

those stereotypes you name; and I agree with your post-- but do they even really apply anymore? Look at Bill Gates; those of us who, 30 years ago, would have been considered "nerds"--- Run the world, for the most part. Or at least many of the parts that aren't run by the oil cartels.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #20)

Fri Aug 10, 2012, 01:32 AM

22. my duaghter would add being able to catch fish

 

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #22)

Fri Aug 10, 2012, 01:36 AM

23. I'd say with bare hands, particularly.

that's a neat trick, usually reserved for bears and raccoons.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #23)

Fri Aug 10, 2012, 01:41 AM

24. nah noodling and the old splash method.

 

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 05:58 PM

25. "those stereotypes you name; and I agree with your post-- but do they even really apply anymore?"

Yes, they do, unfortunately. Masculinity is still defined in terms of athletic prowess and physical strength. Nonathletic boys face problems growing up in a sports-crazed society. Unless they have a strong support system, they're likely to become resentful or develop self-hatred. When I was a boy, they were stigmatized as sissies and wimps. I know of no evidence of any change for the better today.

I've corresponded a number of times with Dr. William Van Ornum, the psychologist whose comment about the "sports wound" I've copied and pasted below. Incidentally, Dr. Van Ornum was a college athlete; so, his observations cannot be easily disregarded with the kneejerk "He's just jealous" dismissal.


http://americanmentalhealthfoundation.org/entry.php?id=135
The Sports Wound and Bullying

by Dr. William Van Ornum
May 12, 2010 8:19am




Many of the public and well as the mental health professions have never heard of the phrase "sports wound." This refers to males who do not display athletic prowess or good eye-hand coordination. As much as we may want to deny this, boys who lack sports ability often are teased and bullied through their growing up years. Yes, many coaches and physical education teachers are sensitive to this and intervene. But even if the teasing and bullying stops, the boy has received a message that he can't handle himself like the other boys in this situation.

Wise parents and teachers guide the youngster into pursuits where they have strengths or talents and can attain success. Judo, karate, scouts, non-competive sports, carpentry, archery, and many other venues offer boys with the "sports wound" a chance to succeed.

Historically boys with the "sports wound" have been teased as being homosexual. Whatever his sexual orientation, it is cruelty to be on the receiving end of such comments. And these hurtful words continue to be spoken on athletic fields and phys ed classes around the world.

Our society rewards athletes. When even the President of the United States, a man attuned to racism and prejudice, taunts retarded children by saying is low score in bowling was "like someone in the Olympics", we realize the strong and continuing presence of factors leading to the sports wounds.

We may tell children aout how many great high school athletes burn out right after high school and end up in menial jobs. But smart youngsters will also note the many highly successful men whose success is in heavy measure supported by the self-esteem and drive that comes from success in the athletic arena.

I wonder if this same sports wound phenomenon is happening to girls, now that there are so many girls sports. Intriguing. we need to watch for this, listen to the children, and obtain some data.

The "sports wound" shows us some of the sadnesses and paradoxes of a lack of athletic talent, and how many times thiis is associated with bullying and teasing which are strongly supported by attitudes putting athletic skills up on the pedastal.


Incidentally, I would add bodybuilding to Dr. Van Ornum's list of alternate pursuits for nonathletic boys. It's a great builder of self-confidence.

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Response to radicalliberal (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 8, 2012, 06:24 PM

26. Why would you think that I, or anyone else here, would respond to Dr. Van Ornum that way?

I agree with what you've posted, it contains several good points.

I had several years as a clumsy, bookish adolescent, growing up smart, nerdy, not terribly athletic, etc. ..add to that being an outpoken Atheist in the midwest in a time when such things were not really acceptable.

I dealt with more than my share of bullying, for sure.

One thing that gives me hope, now- and i realize i am in a particularly progressive part of the country, thankfully- as a parent i am acutely aware of how seriously and consistently the issue of bullying is now addressed in the public schools. Compared to my "ah, suck it up" childhood, it is like night & day.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #26)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 02:07 AM

27. Hi, Warren! :-)

I will start with a negative of sorts, but will end with a positive to make the reader feel good (maybe).

But before I begin, I'd like to say that even though I'm a Christian (as well as an oddball and a nut ), I am opposed to atheists being discriminated against or hassled in any way. That is a matter of principle to me. I am very sorry about the bullying you experienced for being an atheist. Any believer who would engage in that sort of misconduct is a disgrace and a hypocrite. Coercive religion is repellent to me. Some evangelicals clearly haven't a clue how to relate to people. I've often identified with outsiders because I've been one for most of my life. So, I trust that even though I am a believer and you are an atheist, we are friends. I mean, at least to the extent that that is possible in an online forum!

Now, regarding your question at the beginning of your post: When I referred to the "You're just jealous" dismissal, I definitely was not referring to you. But I have noticed in forums at this and other websites that when this sort of issue is raised and someone says he was bullied by "jocks" in high school and therefore has no great love for sports, the reaction of many sports fans does seem to be along the lines of "You're an elitist" or "You're just jealous" -- which, in my view, is an indication of close-mindedness and an unwillingness to consider a different point of view, as if theirs is the only legitimate one.

Perhaps I will upset some DU members, but I'll give an example: In a particular DU topic on bullying several years ago (I no longer remember the exact year), several of the members said they had been bullied by "jocks" in high school. Then another member whom I shall not identify started posting. He let it be known with considerable pride that he had played football in high school, and he bragged about all the sex he had had because of his social status as an athlete. Instead of acknowledging the emotional pain of those who had been bullied by "jocks" in high school, he said the pixels "reeked" of envy. When it comes to the experiences of those who were bullied in high school (regardless of who the bullies were), the operative word is "resentful," not "jealous." (Then he actually went on and played the victim card, claiming that at his 20-year reunion he was snubbed by some of his former classmates. Considering his attitude that he expressed in the topic, I wonder why ...)

That is what I mean by the "You're just jealous" dismissal. It really is a form of intellectual dishonesty, a manifestation of a lack of empathy.

I'm gonna take another risk now: There's one DU member I've learned about whom I really admire and respect, and that is -- and please don't hold this against me -- your nemesis trumad. I haven't read all of his posts in which he's criticized this group, as my time to be on the Internet is limited. I don't necessarily agree with his criticisms of individual members of this group, but what I really admire about the man is his attitude towards bullying and that he's actually intervened rather effectively at times. I also deeply appreciate the fact that although he has a decidedly athletic background, he still loves his nonathletic son. That means a lot to me. Oh, well, I hope I'm not in the doghouse now.


And now here's the positive, and I address these comments to any nonathletic guy who had to endure the forced misery of mandatory boys' P.E. that was exclusively centered around sports: Join a health club! So far I've gained over 30 pounds, mostly muscle mass -- even though I'm now in my early sixties! I love the feeling of physical strength in my body I've not experienced before. I can understand why some guys who take up bodybuilding become narcissistic, especially when they had had such low body self-image. It's also been psychologically therapeutic as well! I feel like I belong there. Even though I'm a nonathlete, my first physical trainer bragged about me to the other trainers.

Well, I gotta go ... My mother once told my best friend's mother, "Bill sometimes talks too much."

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Response to radicalliberal (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 9, 2012, 03:40 AM

28. Couple things, Bill. One, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply.

Two, Let me say that "you're just jealous" is an extremely lame brush-off of what I think is a legitimate analysis; that many kids in our society, many boys, certainly, get a hard time if they're not athletic or sports-oriented or what. I like to think it's better than it used to be. I definitely think that geography and the energy of the local community, the messages which are reinforced in the schools, etc. plays a big part.

Three, thanks for the thing about the religious based-bullying. Really, I don't think you could call it coercive religion or even something well-thought out by "believers". More like, kid on the school bus is asked what religion he is, kid says "Atheist", other kids don't know what that is, kid says "it means I don't believe in God", which, apparently, kid is not allowed to do.

Well, I survived, and they didn't know me very well, because they didn't change my mind, to say the least. And in the grand scheme of things, I know a lot of kids have endured far worse than what I did, sadly. These experiences gave me a long-running sympathy for the underdog in any given situation, and in the end analysis are part of who I am, so I don't regret them or wish them away. But I do appreciate your sympathy and kind words.

Four, Trumad is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "my nemesis", (nor is he the official -or unofficial- "nemesis" of this group). Actually, when I signed up for DU in 2004, I distinctly remember Trumad being one of the first people to welcome me here. I've seen Trumad make some good points on a number of issues. Trumad was blocked from this group because he- for whatever reason- decided to wage a rather goofy vendetta against this group's existence, and was incapable of coming in here to do anything except insult the group and its members. I don't know what his reasoning was for this, nor do I particularly care. No group on DU would stand for that sort of behavior, and we won't either. Trumad being the only person blocked from this group is merely a function of his total repeated demonstrated unwillingness to do anything except come in here and lob turds at people. So, fine, he can hang out somewhere else. No big deal.

And another thing to remember is, the seeming hard-and-fast "sides" in these things are really, not. The posters in HoF whom I think Trumad believed he was erstwhile "defending" at that time, had been calling for his internet head a few months earlier because he posted a thread in meta containing a word that starts with a "C". One thing you should know about DU, and this probably applies to all sorts of internet discussions, is you shouldn't take these spats or inter-group disagreements or long-running feuds or whatever the fuck they may be, very seriously. There are people here who are supposed to be on some "other side" or another with whom I have totally productive conversations with and no problem working with on common tasks.

I'm really not interested in perpetuating these silly dramas, at all, and frankly I can't even keep track of all the people who are supposed to be on which side. There have been so many silly fights on DU over all manner of things, really you'd need an excel spreadsheet to stay on top of who is supposed to be for or against who else. I sure can't. So I say what I think, and don't really pay all that much attention to who did what or when or whose team is supposed to be whose.

I agree with the rest of what you've written. Like I said, I was a skinny, nerdy early adolescent. Then I grew into a relatively strapping high schooler. Then I grew into a sort of crazed hippie. (I've been a lot of people, in my life) then I put on some weight, and then I discovered better eating and exercise, lost the weight and got into what I consider now the best shape of my life. And I lift weights. So I agree. Exercise has done wonders for my self esteem, my health and my state of mind.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Fri Aug 10, 2012, 01:10 AM

19. i guess it depends what you cry at, getting whacked in the nuts is acceptable

 

but crying over spilt coffee isnt, neither is crying over a tv show.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #19)

Fri Aug 10, 2012, 01:13 AM

21. Yes, but what if the tv show is "Ow, My Balls"?

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