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Wed Oct 3, 2012, 06:33 PM

'Why the US Demonizes Venezuala's Democracy'

Wednesday, October 03, 2012
'Why the US Demonizes Venezuala's Democracy'

Hoping you'll help me sort out the truth about Venezuela. Is this correct?:

Why the US demonises Venezuala's democracy, by Mark Weisbrot, CIF: ...On 30 May, Dan Rather, one of America's best-known journalists, announced that Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez would die "in a couple of months at most." Four months later Chávez is not only alive and campaigning but widely expected to win re-election on Sunday.

Such is the state of misrepresentation of Venezuela,... a journalist can say almost anything about Chávez or his government and it is unlikely to be challenged, so long as it is negative. Even worse, Rather referred to Chávez as "the dictator" – a term that few, if any, political scientists familiar with the country would countenance.

Here is what Jimmy Carter said about Venezuela's "dictatorship" a few weeks ago: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world." ... But because Washington has sought for more than a decade to delegitimize Venezuela's government, his ... comments went unreported in almost all of the US media. ...

The opposition will probably lose this election not because of the government's advantages of incumbency..., but because the living standards of the majority of Venezuelans have dramatically improved under Chávez..., poverty has been cut in half and extreme poverty by 70%. And this measures only cash income. Millions have access to healthcare for the first time, and college enrolment has doubled, with free tuition for many students. Inequality has also been considerably reduced. By contrast, the two decades that preceded Chávez amount to one of the worst economic failures in Latin America...

More:
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2012/10/why-the-us-demonizes-venezualas-democracy.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EconomistsView+%28Economist%27s+View%29

13 replies, 1352 views

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Arrow 13 replies Author Time Post
Reply 'Why the US Demonizes Venezuala's Democracy' (Original post)
Judi Lynn Oct 2012 OP
Judi Lynn Oct 2012 #1
joshcryer Oct 2012 #2
bvar22 Oct 2012 #4
joshcryer Oct 2012 #5
bvar22 Oct 2012 #6
joshcryer Oct 2012 #7
bvar22 Oct 2012 #8
joshcryer Oct 2012 #9
bvar22 Oct 2012 #10
joshcryer Oct 2012 #11
bvar22 Oct 2012 #12
joshcryer Oct 2012 #13
2on2u Oct 2012 #3

Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 06:45 PM

1. Great quote from Luis Inacio Lula da Silva, recent President of Brazil:

This is the former president of Brazil, Lula da Silva, last month: "A victory for Chávez is not just a victory for the people of Venezuela but also a victory for all the people of Latin America … this victory will strike another blow against imperialism."

This quote has been shared here since he said it, and clearly ignored, as the right-wingers (Democrats????) posting at the Democratic Underground who favor the neo-liberal opponent have taken extreme measures to paint Lula da Silva as the "good liberal" leader, and pretend he is at great distance from Hugo Chavez, apparently imagining DU'ers can be misled. if they try hard enough.

Lula said that in March, I believe, and it's been posted here a couple of times.

He's right, clearly.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 06:51 PM

2. Capriles: We will adopt the Brazilian model

"The relations between Brazil and Venezuela are way more profound than the mere personal relations established between Lula and Chávez" said Capriles adding that the view of the former Brazilian leader does not imply fewer or more votes to any candidate


Capriles is no neo-liberal despite the lies from what propagandists have to say. Nor are his supporters right wingers, again, lies and untruths spread all because Chavez has manipulated them into believing he is for the people.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #2)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 08:45 PM

4. LOL

You said:
" lies and untruths spread all because Chavez has manipulated them into believing he is for the people."--- DUer Joshcryer

From the OP,
but also easily documented elsewhere:
"living standards of the majority of Venezuelans have dramatically improved under Chávez..., poverty has been cut in half and extreme poverty by 70%. And this measures only cash income. Millions have access to healthcare for the first time, and college enrolment has doubled, with free tuition for many students. Inequality has also been considerably reduced. By contrast, the two decades that preceded Chávez amount to one of the worst economic failures in Latin America..."

If THAT is how you "manipulate" someone into believing you are "for the people",
we could use a bunch of THAT "manipulation" right here in the USA.
I guess FDR was also a big "manipulator".

VIVA Democracy!
I pray we get some here soon!
Our neighbors in Latin America have give us a successful Blue Print for real Change.



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #4)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 08:56 PM

5. Straw man. You quote something else entirely that I don't dispute.

Why don't you address my point that Capriles' supporters are leftists?

There's a reason that the parties Movimiento al Socialismo - Movement for Socialism), PODEMOS (Por la Democracia Social-For Social Democracy), PPT (Patria para Todos - Fatherland for All), Bandera Roja (Red Flag, Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries) support him.

And it's not because he's a neoliberal if you believe the lies of the chavistas.

You manipulate people by slandering your opponent on a continual basis, eventually they come to believe it, it's one reason Chavez has been elected twice, he invented a boogyman all the while fleecing the Venezuelan people dry.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #5)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 09:02 PM

6. A straight forward posting of the FACTS...

... is NOT a Strawman.
Look it up.

No charge.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #6)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 09:10 PM

7. Did I at ANY POINT dispute the part you quoted?

NO.

That is a FACT.

That is NOT MY POSITION and therefore your post is a Strawman.

Address why the leftist (radical left, even) parties in Venezuela support Capriles?

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 4, 2012, 02:31 PM

8. Irony impaired?

You can't see it, can you?

You don't dispute this:
"living standards of the majority of Venezuelans have dramatically improved under Chávez..., poverty has been cut in half and extreme poverty by 70%. And this measures only cash income. Millions have access to healthcare for the first time, and college enrolment has doubled, with free tuition for many students. Inequality has also been considerably reduced. By contrast, the two decades that preceded Chávez amount to one of the worst economic failures in Latin America..."


And, yet, you use the emotionally charged language of an agenda driven, Talking Points ONLY low information partisan to insists that Chavez must LIE to present himself as a "Man of the People".
Like the DU contingent that insist that Chavez is a dictator despite the FACT that the elections in Venezuela are more open, transparent and verifiable than the opaque privatized elections in the USA.

Josh, the disconnect in your logic is a chasm that rivals the Grand Canyon.
It is laughable.
Chavez doesn't have to lie.
All he has to do is point to the above record that you don't dispute.
I wish the USA had a record near as good.


Venezuela belongs to the Venezuelans,
and all the social justice criteria indicates that they are on the right track.
Venezuela has open and transparent elections.
It is up to them.
When they are tired of Chavez, they will replace him.
It is none of our business,
nor is it the business of the IMF, the World Banks, The Colonial Conservatives,
or our 1% who no longer reap HUGE profits from Venezuelan resources.

VIVA Democracy!
I pray we get some here soon!



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 4, 2012, 02:38 PM

9. "When they are tired of Chavez, they will replace him."

In three short days they will do just that.

And all your dishonest smearing talking points will be incoherent and muddled and your hypocrisy will show as you back-peddle and denigrate the Venezuelan people's open and transparent elections towing the government line as they call fraud.

Chavez doesn't have to lie.


No, he doesn't.



"It doesn't matter that the streets are in disrepair, that the lights are not always on, that the water (isn't up to par), the people don't have jobs, that people don't have houses. What matters is the fatherland."

It's nice when Chavez addresses the points other progressives have been critical of him over.

BTW, I have never called Chavez a dictator.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 4, 2012, 03:25 PM

10. WOW. You ARE a unique young man.

NOW, you can see The Future and attack me for imaginary things I haven't done.

"And all your dishonest smearing talking points will be incoherent and muddled and your hypocrisy will show as you back-peddle and denigrate the Venezuelan people's open and transparent elections."-- joshcryer

It looks like you didn't take my advice and look up "Strawman".
If you had, you would have never written the above post.
You have been here long enough to know better.
I am trying to save you from further embarrassment.

BTW: I had the blessing to live, work, and travel (not just the Tourist Enclaves, but the REAL Venezuela, including the jungles) in the late 90's (Pre-Chavez).
I love Venezuela and the Venezuelan people.
They are MUCH better off under Chavez.

I cheer their success at wresting their country away from their 1%.
Chavez, and the Venezuelan model for near Bloodless Revolution has inspired other Latin American countries to do the same, and I pray it migrates to El Norte.

VIVA Democracy!
WE outnumber THEM!


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Response to bvar22 (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 4, 2012, 04:25 PM

11. That's a prediction.

How is a prediction a strawman?

I predict those things will happen.

We will see if I am correct.

If you celebrate Capriles' win without denigrating the Venezuelan people, then I will happily admit I was wrong.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 4, 2012, 05:02 PM

12. Look Josh,

...you seem like a nice enough kid,
and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.
I'm trying to save you from more embarrassment.
Even though the quality of debate & discussion at DU has plummeted over the last few years,
you still can't just post your fantasies and expect to be taken seriously.

Alfred Adler called these fantasies "Final Fictionalisms".
You should look that up in addition to "Strawman".

Seriously.

Cheers.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #12)

Thu Oct 4, 2012, 05:10 PM

13. I got a thick skin. The insults are just cruft.

I gloss over the insults because they provide nothing of substance.

If you think that my prediction is wrong, that is fine, we're all open to having our own predictions.

But, unlike you I have no need to bring insults. I don't like being nasty.

It's just tiresome to hear these people saying people support Chavez. If after O7 Chavez is voted out of power, will people still use that same argument? Well, that would be silly, for sure.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Wed Oct 3, 2012, 07:03 PM

3. Nationalize your natural resources, GO TO JAIL (So to speak)

 

Last line below is quite interesting.


http://venezuelanalysis.com/indicators


Executive Summary

This paper from February 2009 looks at some of the most important economic and social indicators during the 10 years of the Chávez administration in Venezuela, as well as the current economic expansion. It also looks at the current situation and challenges.

Among the highlights:

The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflationadjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.

Most of this growth has been in the nonoil sector of the economy, and the private sector has grown faster than the public sector. During the current economic expansion, the poverty rate has been cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and does take into account increased access to health care or education. Over the entire decade, the percentage of households in poverty has been reduced by 39 percent, and extreme poverty by more than half.


Inequality, as measured by the Gini index, has also fallen substantially. The index has fallen to 41 in 2008, from 48.1 in 2003 and 47 in 1999. This represents a large reduction in inequality.
Real (inflationadjusted) social spending per person more than tripled from 1998-2006.
From 1998-2006, infant mortality has fallen by more than onethird. The number of primary care physicians in the public sector increased 12fold from 1999-2007, providing health care to millions of Venezuelans who previously did not have access. There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999/2000 to 2007/2008.


The labor market also improved substantially over the last decade, with unemployment dropping from 11.3 percent to 7.8 percent. During the current expansion it has fallen by more than half. Other labor market indicators also show substantial gains. Over the past decade, the number of social security beneficiaries has more than doubled.

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