Latin America
Related: About this forumHonduras, Venezuela have world's largest murder rates according to UN
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/10/uk-latam-crime-idUKBREA390IK20140410Torn apart by gang warfare and invaded by Mexican drug cartels, the Central American nation of Honduras had a 2012 murder rate of 90.4 homicides per 100,000 people, almost double Venezuela's rate of 53.7.
According to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime's report, Central America fared particularly badly. Belize had a murder rate of 44.7, while El Salvador's was 41.2 per 100,000.
In a previous report in 2011, Honduras topped the list, with El Salvador in second place and Venezuela in third...
Latin America in general is now the most violent continent in the world, even more than Africa.
Ya know, considering the oil bonanza Venezuela enjoyed in the last 15 years, you'd expect the country would be developed enough to not have such a high crime rate. But alas, the government won't do anything about it since they actually benefit from the violence as it keeps people in a constant state of fear to do anything. Hell, even the criminals themselves, both in and outside of prisons, are armed by the government and military. It's almost like they see being the most violent country in South America some kind of badge of honor.
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Demeter
(85,373 posts)Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)We're talking about the bad conditions of specific countries due to their own governments' ineptitude or their lack of any serious initiative to improve their security, not the US's covert military ops (which I don't support, by the way) on foreign soil that is suspected of harboring insurgents. Venezuela is not in war with anybody, and yet they still have a higher yearly murder count that countries which actually are in war.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)and funding of mercenary "rebels". It's EXTREMELY relevant. Just because Obama isn't droning Maduro (that we know of) doesn't mean US hands are clean, and who can tell why there's so much violence, when the oligarchs are trying desperately to reconquer a people who have chosen freedom and democracy and socialism?
Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)All you're doing is repeat the same bs that the Ven government has been saying for the past decade to try to justify their incompetence and problems in the country.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)I wonder why it was U.S. Republican President told his CIA guy, to make certain the US hand didn't show...
hmmmmmmmmm.
We continue our coverage of the 40th anniversary of the overthrow of Chilean President Salvador Allende with a look at the critical U.S. role under President Richard Nixon and his national security adviser, Henry Kissinger. Peter Kornbluh, who spearheaded the effort to declassify more than 20,000 secret documents that revealed the role of the CIA and the White House in the Chilean coup, discusses how Nixon and Kissinger backed the Chilean military’s ouster of Allende and then offered critical support as it committed atrocities to cement its newfound rule. Kornbluh is author of the newly updated book, "The Pinochet File: A Declassified Dossier on Atrocity and Accountability," and director of the Chile Documentation Project at the National Security Archive. In 1970, the CIA’s deputy director of plans wrote in a secret memo: "It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. ... It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG (the U.S. government) and American hand be well hidden." That same year President Nixon ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him." We’re also joined by Juan Garcés, a former personal adviser to Allende who later led the successful legal effort to arrest and prosecute coup leader Augusto Pinochet.
More:
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/10/40_years_after_chiles_9_11
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)
delrem
(9,688 posts)That's what Judi Lynn does.
Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)Things have changed in 40 years. And things in Venezuela have only been getting worse under the Maduro regime in only less than a year. If you could please elaborate exactly on how a government that has seized control of most, if not all, institutions and militarized the nation can still be undermined by supposed US-backed saboteurs on such a large scale that it cripples the economy of a country of over 30 million people without leaving any traces behind that links said saboteurs to the CIA/Uribe/USAID/what-have-you, please do so.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)It takes many, MANY years before our government will even consider declassifying anything which is secret, and very little of that ever makes it to the surface for public scrutiny.
Can't imagine you are trying to imply to anyone, even the most odious, worthless, repulsive right-wingers that this government is NOT in the business of overthrowing other governments now, suddenly, after all the HISTORY we have of trashing governments, murdering civilians, taking down economies, doing any and everything which comes to the mind of any right-wing pervert in a position of power.
Hardly any proof? Who on earth do you imagine you are, anyway?
Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)You don't even speak Venezuelan Spanish or have even set foot in Venezuela in the first place, and don't have relatives and friends living there and experiencing the day-to-day situation in the country. I sure as hell think I know better than you when it comes to my own home country.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)about Venezuela is remarkably similar to that used by Teapartiers - if you believe it say it loudly, repeat ad nauseam and never, never let yourself be swayed by actual facts. They live in a bubble where Venezuela would be a workers' paradise on earth if only the mean old United States would just stop making Maduro's policies fail. This fervently held conception is not based on any genuine knowledge of Venezuela as you point out, but rather based on some esoteric beliefs which have no grounding in facts. And, when this is pointed out time and time again, the only response is to circle the wagons and keep repeating the chosen meme mechanically - 'No evidence? Well, obviously silly the CIA doesn't leave evidence'. Very persuasive.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)You seem to be saying as much here in post 18:
Can you clarify?
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)[center]
[/center]
It's startling to seem you aren't able to understand what was written.
Don't feel obligated to reply to every poster all the time. It's O.K. to refrain when you have a comprehension problem. It's probably the better choice. Read a good book, instead. How about Las venas abiertas de America Latina?
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Not a lot of wiggle room there, is there? You're clearly calling out the current American administration as being complicit in VZ's mess.
And by the way, this board isn't your personal property. I'll reply to whatever, whenever, as I see fit. If you don't like what I post, you can either alert on it, block me, or trash the whole thread. Or just go outside and take a break. Or start Marxist Underground.
In the meantime, I will continue to post as I see fit, within the DU rules, and you can continue doing massive data dumps from whatever sites you like to source.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)It's a real task you've assigned yourself, and you just can't come close to getting it done.
Clearly, you've passed the stage of suffering when you've embarrassed yourself so savagely. That's quite an accomplishment in itself.
Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)All you are doing is repeat the same BS excuse to try to pin the blame for Venezuela's problems on anybody but the government itself, when the most logical scenario is that the government is utterly full of corruption and incompetence. If you honestly cannot see that after almost 15 years, then your words are simply just a waste of bandwith.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Wreckers have nothing to change *to*.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)You surely must have supported Brian Moore, the Socialist candidate, correct?
And in 2012 I trust you knocked on a lot of doors on behalf of Stewart Alexander?
Why don't you tell us who you supported for commander-in-chief in the last two presidential elections.
delrem
(9,688 posts)lacking redeeming value.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Wreckers have nothing to change *to*.
Only you can clarify this apparent claim that the US government is some agent of evil to this day.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Response to Flatulo (Reply #27)
Flatulo This message was self-deleted by its author.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)and no one denies.
No one denies.
No one denies.
No one denies.
No one denies.
Got that? No one is denying what the USA did under Richard Nixon forty years ago.
Forty years ago.
Forty years ago.
Forty years ago.
Forty years ago.
I know you don't comprehend well, so I'll repeat Judi's proof here. Oh, Snap! She has no proof.
She says right here, no proof of US destabilizing Venezuela:
It takes many, MANY years before our government will even consider declassifying anything which is secret, and very little of that ever makes it to the surface for public scrutiny.
Can't imagine you are trying to imply to anyone, even the most odious, worthless, repulsive right-wingers that this government is NOT in the business of overthrowing other governments now, suddenly, after all the HISTORY we have of trashing governments, murdering civilians, taking down economies, doing any and everything which comes to the mind of any right-wing pervert in a position of power.
Hardly any proof? Who on earth do you imagine you are, anyway?
And here, for those who read poorly: no proof of US destabilizing VZ.
I wonder why it was U.S. Republican President told his CIA guy, to make certain the US hand didn't show...
hmmmmmmmmm.
You guys are talking about Chile, which happened 40 years ago and NO ONE denies. But you're talking about Richard Nixon.
Richard Nixon.
RICHARD FUCKING NIXON.
Got proof that the US is destabilizing VZ? I'd love to see it. Otherwise, take it to the Creative Speculation forum.
Look, I understand that you guys just can't accept that a Marxist/collectivist society could possibly fail without a push from the US. I get that. But you have to back up your claims with proof. If you can do that, I'll be the first in line to congratulate you on your Pulitzer Prize.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)If you want to win that Pulitzer Prize, you'll have to get current.
Barack Obama isn't Richard Nixon.
Richard Nixon was a criminal. He resigned to avoid prosecution for his crimes.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)to his truly EVIL crimes which were absolutely A-OK with a certain evil portion of this country's population.
His acts regarding this hemisphere, and VietNam were in NO WAY different from what had already happened under other Presidents, and the things which CONTINUED to happen up to the very present moment, hoy dia.
As bad as things went under Eisenhower for the poor, and the helpless of the Americas, he realized how bad it was for the victims, and he took time during his final official speech as President to warn against the United States' military industrial complex, and the destruction they could wreak upon the world if they were left unchecked.
As he warned us, and this country heard, and read his speech, he left office, and the very same things kept happening.
Don't even try to fool the real citizens in this forum. We most surely know better.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)For real? That's your "evidence"? If you were on a debate floor, people would be facepalming hard.
Seriously, did you at least even try anything close to the Debate Club in college? Maybe Model United Nations? Or at least of those on the high school level? It honestly feels like the closest you've come to a real discussion has been through this forum.
delrem
(9,688 posts)On the other hand, what isn't proven is the claim that those who're most outraged by your suggestion are only outraged when they take a break from rocking to Ted Nugent and Toby Keith.
The lyrics:
http://www.cockburnproject.net/songs&music/n.html
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)I feel sick I didn't even know about it earlier.
Immediately had to check to see if the singer had been murdered, yet!
Thank goodness, so far, at least now, he hasn't.
It's an outstanding thing he has done, in singing it.
Thank you, so much.
delrem
(9,688 posts)But for certain, he isn't the kind that one ordinarily hears about.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)who dared to tell the truth, some were driven out of their countries by death threats, like some authors, and so many others, and some, like Victor Jara, just got murdered by their US-supported governments after a deadly period of torture.
Telling the truth gets people murdered in the coldest way possible after they've been tormented and tortured, mutilated and terrorized beyond endurance by right-wingers determined to get and keep control of what is not theirs.
You can only hope for protection for those who have chosen to illuminate the deadly cost to good people, and to all life itself by the criminal adventures of these twisted, congenital perverts.
delrem
(9,688 posts)he being "white".
I dare say that he's never experienced the fear that you describe.
I've always had an affinity toward folk music, I've always loved it. Bruce Cockburn is the quintessential 'folk musician', he comes out of that milieu. I first listened to Bruce Cockburn at the Univ. of Victoria, BC, back when I was a student, in what I'd say were "less than accommodating circumstances" for him.
Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)As well as other well-known Colombian leftist guerrillas that would hardly support the US. Please show us proof of these supposed right-winged backed paramilitary groups. I'm just dying to see the evidence you provide, if you can find it. So far all we've seen are civilians taking to their street and making barricades, something that any civil society does when they outright reject their government. There's no evidence whatsoever of guarimberos carrying firearms and opening fire on National Guard, but there's plenty of evidence of National Guard working alongside armed civilians (guess what? Those aren't guarimberos or opposition) and those same National Guard using excessive force against unarmed civilians and shooting tear gas into homes, homes where people that were not even protesting reside.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)Don't ask people to do your thinking for you.
Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)Most of the protest victims have been opposition protesters. Hell, evidence has come up that Adriana Urquiola's murderer was in cahoots with big-time pro-government figures. You keep denying the truth all you want, it's not gonna change it. All you have to support your claims are bullshit excuses like "Well, the US did THIS 40 years ago, it's obvious they're doing it AGAIN! I can't back it in any way whatsoever with any solid proof, but I swear it's the truth! You just have to take my word for it". Yeah, that's REALLY gonna get you far in the adult world of serious debate.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)pretends to not be part of what he inflames.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Jeesh. Are you a 9/11 Truther as well by any chance? You standards of evidence are certainly as sloppy.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)complete and utter disregard for the well-being and safety of the middle class, the bourgeois.
Chavez, a champion of the poor,
frankly did not give a single solitary fuck over how many non-poor were and are getting whacked.
Just my opinion and my own reading of the situation on the ground there.
Mika
(17,751 posts)"We're talking about the bad conditions of specific countries due to their own governments' ineptitude or their lack of any serious initiative to improve their security..."
Only one reason? Hmmm.
Proof?
Thanks.
delrem
(9,688 posts)that being wreckers reaps benefits. You don't like what we are doing to you? Then take THIS!
The extreme right learned this at the very beginning of the industrial revolution and ever since has adapted to conditions.
The extreme right will NEVER give ground, whatever the need.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)Whenever they are in power here, everything gets worse, and it takes a Democratic hand at the wheel to start the desperately needed repair work.
They have been cleaning out our national treasury in just the way their sponsors have been hollowing out the national resources of the countries they've managed to control through the whorish treacherousness of the oligarchs within the countries.
Just one association of greedy, glutinous, sadistic, antisocial, phony circle jerkers.
How about the clowns who have had to drag their bogus photos here to claim the Venezuelan citizens, who have NOTHING to gain from violence, did it, instead of the ones everyone knows are responsible.
If it weren't for their slimy dishonesty, cowardice, and treachery, they would have NO qualities at all. They'd be empty, pointless, featureless, utterly unnecessary bags of skin.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)In fact, without US oil revenues, they'd be in a much deeper pile of doodoo than they currently are.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Do you understand that Venezuela is increasingly doing business with China?
Do you understand that there are other markets in the world?
eta: I didn't use *any* terminology that suggested that I believed that Venezuela was "sticking it to the US".
That is entirely your invention, and I credit you for it with your intent.
I don't like to discuss matters with liars, or those who suggest blatant lies about what I said. When people get into that territory, I write them off.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)You said this, right here in post 8:
delrem
(9,688 posts)I didn't have that in mind.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)regime(s) in VZ take particular pleasure in the perception that their Socialist (VZ) government is a pin in the eye of the USA.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Add a little "jingoism" in as spice -- because it's where you're at.
Perhaps by doing that you think you're somehow getting ahead.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)It's clear to anyone with even half a brain that you and Judi, along with a few others, believe that the current American administration is some kind of evil player pushing VZ into civil unrest, shortages and violence. Myself, and others, are just asking to see the proof of this, but all we keep getting is insults and massive Judi Lynn data dumps detailing what the US did in Chile, under the direct orders of the criminal Richard Nixon, forty years ago, and then some more insults.
Certainly a person of such strong convictions can share their proof with others.
I know that there's a certain amount of frustration involved with actually backing up one's claims with facts, not historical data mining, but we're not going to stop challenging these claims until someone can provide concrete proof of the allegations.
When that happens, I will stop challenging the claims.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Which isn't a good habit, even though it's the best you can do.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)no argument from me. In fact, praise be, we finally agree on something.
delrem
(9,688 posts)And you're too lazy to scroll up.
Now, I say again: you just make shit up. This sub-thread is proof.
Your ikyabwai is a complete fail, but it's even worse when you have nothing but lies about what I posted to fall back on, and repeat, about how you "quoted me" saying that Venezuela was "sticking it to the US".
That lie is entirely your invention, and your repeating it even after being corrected tells me all I need to know about you.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)"I get the sense that the posters here who are cheering on the
regime(s) in VZ take particular pleasure in the perception that their Socialist (VZ) government is a pin in the eye of the USA. "
Judi Lynn's post never said or suggested anything of the kind.
By the way, the Judi Lynn quotation is spot on. It just doesn't say anything remotely like you suggest.
Marksman_91
(2,035 posts)Maybe the fact that the murder rate keeps getting worse in Venezuela every year? It only took a former Miss Venezuela's murder for the government to apparently take some kind of action, after almost 15 years of worsening crime.
That the annual inflation rate is higher than 50%, the HIGHEST one in the world?
The fact that people have to do line-ups just to buy certain products that they might not even be able to find (why the hell does this not happen with such absurd frequency in other LatAm countries)? I'm not making up the numbers, by the way, the Central Bank of Venezuela itself said there was a scarcity rate of 22.2% last December. The fact that there are blackouts that knock out power for nearly half the country every few months or so also kind of indicates just how poorly managed the electrical power is handled by them. Oh, and let's not forget the blatant nepotism within the government hierarchy. The vice president is married to one of Chavez's daughters. The PSUV mayor Jorge Rodriguez, who is one of the most vocal leaders in the party, has a sister who happens to be the Mistress of Communication and Information. Diosdado Cabello, biggest pal of the deceased president, is the president of the National Assembly, a position that was before occupied by Maduro's own goddamn wife. I could go on. The fact is that the government heads think loyalty is more important than having somebody who was actually prepared for their role to be in those positions. Obviously, Chavez was no exception, picking someone like Maduro, an uneducated homophobe, as his successor.
You keep bringing up the bullshit excuse that these problems are caused by right-wing backed saboteurs, and yet you fail to realize that the government has more control over all industries and the obtaining of dollars, that most of government-run complexes have been militarized, and yet still don't function properly, and so on. If you can actually present me some raw numbers regarding how US-backed saboteurs have actually manage to cripple a state that has so much power, please share them.
Judi Lynn
(160,516 posts)Usually people working in secrecy always send out bulletins telling everyone what they're up to!
They always send out messages, sometimes even fun videos of themselves doing vicious things so people will even believe it's them doing those fun crimes! Can you believe it! They're just so crazy! What WILL they do next?
The CIA is known for informing everyone of their murders, their government sabotage, their treachery, BEFORE they even do it, in case someone wants to reschedule a dental appointment or something in order to be around at the right place so they won't miss it. In person! To see it for themselves! Wow! 
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)repeat - repeat - repeat - repeat.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)So far, the only "evidence" you've offered is that because there is no evidence, that's the evidence.
You know how twisted that sounds?
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)They don't care though.
