Has anyone installed this Mint 16 XFCE? Junk. During the install it asks the user if they

[jtuck004]

want to replace
/etc/gnome/defaults.list > cancel/replace

How the hell is an ordinary user supposed to know how to answer this?

So I asked on the mint help chat, first person said "choose the one that is best"

Best for what? There's 7 pages of potential changes.

So I asked "What should I tell new users?" They said "Make the choice for them"

I choose to tell them to install something else. And I hate that, 'cause I like Linux, a lot. And I liked 15, a lot. But why would I tell someone to go try something that's going to generate a call b4 they even get to the first update?

I find it hard to believe they released it like that. Windows sucks, but grandma can install it without having to know the differences between 7 pages worth of strange-sounding programs. And back in the 90's I watched user after user, who would have been better off with Linux, go to Windows because it was easy to install and get up and running. Before it crashed.

It's like they purposely want to keep a first-rate program in a second-rate position...

Does Mint 16 Cinnamon do the same thing?

[TroglodyteScholar]

1. If you like 15, why not keep using it?

Also, I think Mint will generally put out a bugfix/update ISO a month or two after a new release. So maybe wait a bit for that?

Linux isn't Windows. If having to answer one potentially confusing question is asking too much, then no, your user shouldn't be SETTING UP Linux. My approach, which has worked pretty well, has been to complete the install for anyone who wants it... that way I know stuff is working. Then I'll encourage those users to learn what they can from using the system before attempting any fresh installs themselves.

That said, regardless of the distro, I rarely hit snags any worse than the one you've encountered.

Edit: Do not, I repeat DO NOT go to the Linux Mint forums with a post like this one. Your willingness to basically dismiss all of the Mint team's work (junk!) over one little snag will make the audience less than receptive to your criticism. I'm sure someone would offer to give you your money back.

[jtuck004]

2. What a great idea. The product doesn't work, so instead of fixing it, don't use it.

Just out of curiosity, I blew it away and installed Cinnamon. Same thing. It does give you the option of looking at the changes - 6 pages of undocumented junk, programs that are replaced, but not word one about what one should choose or why.

Concerned about the developers? I'm not the one pissing on their work by telling users to go use something else because this is a second-rate install. Then again, such remarks are all people have when they don't know the answers and haven't really got much of anything important to add.

I am trying to find information about a hitch in the install that shouldn't have been there in the first place. If I didn't like their work I wouldn't waste my time - as you pointed out, there are other choices.

I went through this garbage in the 90's. Running Solaris, couple of other things, and to get linux you had to go to the computer store and compile your own. It ran exceedingly well, and we used it to talk and do stuff on bulletin boards all across the country.

Windows came along, dead bang simple. Until it bluescreened, anyway. And a lot of those problems were hardware incompatibilities that got ironed out over time (we actually had to pull cards and change dip switches - now we have progressed, and I know techs who have no idea what those are )

But guess who won? And they shouldn't have - Linux is superior in nearly every way - but this whole arrogant "If you don't like it, how dare you say anything" attitude keeps them in second class.

Then, they are used to making excuses...and that's too bad.

[TroglodyteScholar]

3. To most Linux users this is a minor concern at worst.

I'm pretty sorry I responded to you at all. If you want a full OS for free, and you encounter problems...work through the proper channels to report bugs. Griping is worthless, and your attitude stinks out loud.

You should probably be using Windows.

P.S. I had just assumed you were a bit of a novice because of your disproportionate reaction to this, so that's why I didn't initially suggest reporting a bug. But now I know you should know better, hence my shift in tone.

[jtuck004]

4. I don't care about your tone. At all.

And I think even volunteers ought to be able to strive for better work. 14 was good, 15 was great - they just needed to do, well, not worse. Didn't.

Proper channels? You mean hidden behind closed doors so people can't see the criticism? Why? Not proud of the work?

No surprise there.

My "reaction" is always the same to sorry work. And your answer is "should be using Windows"? LOL. Snide remarks instead of info. But I expected nothing more.

I even asked on the IRC forum, without the attitude that bothers the thin-skinned so much. Got "try something else". No answers there either. Tried again, got crap about the history of the file, it's use in other distros. Nothing about these changes and what they mean.

I'll work through it, of course. I always do. I have other distros in other machines, virtual machines running other stuff, things in the cloud that I can use - not exactly bereft of ways to get done what I need to get done.

But I'm not a simpering cheerleader. The crap shouldn't hit the street until it's ready. That's why they have the process that exists before RC's.

I feel mostly for the user that hears this is good stuff, and tries it. They go to the forum and get crapped on. Linux advocate blames it on user. Linux stays second class.

One more time.

[defacto7]

5. Hey jtuck004

I haven't used Mint but it's basically Ubuntu in green. You may find more information in the ubuntu forum. As far as the defaults.list, there's usually a default choice listed/highlighted/ or you can just hit enter which would be fine. There are some people who are upgrading or installing for development reasons and they would not want the default choice for some technical reason and that's why it's there. No, it would be nicer if that was explained better or not made part of the basic upgrade but it's different depending on the flavor of Linux you use.

One question I would ask you, are you upgrading using apt-get, aptitude, CD or are you using a program manager like synaptic? You will get less obscure questions if you upgrade using the package manager in your old version than if you use the terminal.

Sorry for your trouble. There are so many ways to go about Linux that it can get confusing but then there are so many different ways people want their distro to work for them. Too many choices sometimes, but I prefer choices because once I get through the questionable issue it doesn't bother me again.

Cheers!

[jtuck004]

11. Oh, it's just one of a number of things I was going - it was new, so I threw it on a USB

and tried it on a system. It does this on the first update, and it shouldn't, I think. They could have just dispensed with it, or, worst case, given the user a text that just says "press the replace button and your install will be fine", something. But they get nothing, no info, and a lot of snark from people who use that to defend against not know the answers. lol - like I haven't seen that a bunch of time over the years.

I thought maybe it was unique to xfce, but I installed Cinnamon, same thing. Sigh.

I like 15, and I was really looking forward to this one, and once past it the OS is fine. I just think they should do better. Frankly, most users live in their browsers and email anyway, so when I put them on linux the majority really don't care, as long as they can run it without having to go to forums and look stuff up, and they shouldn't have to. Which, until this, was pretty much the case. Linux is much more stable and safe, with the capability to do a lot more if they want, and it certainly makes their hardware a much longer-lasting proposition.

But stuff like this gets in the way. Then again, there's always Ubuntu, with xfce on it

[Recursion]

6. I would argue with the claim that grandma can install Windows

Windows isn't meant to be installed by ordinary users; they don't have to since Windows comes on the computer (and upgrading is much easier than installing).

That does sound like a bad UI decision on Mint's part, though -- from a quick inspection, the problem comes from trying to integrate the GNOME2-based "arsenal" of apps into XFCE. I would replace it since it's the non-dconf fallback for default applications, and the installation probably knows pretty well what applications it's installing.

[jtuck004]

10. That was how it came about. When we started selling Internet service to WFW 3.1 and

Windows 95 users you didn't go to the store and buy it pre-configured, you installed it. And given the crap state of the software you were buying, even if you did get it pre-configured, you stood a better than even chance of having to re-install it a couple of times during the year. And people loved it - prior to that they had DOS, (fine for me, calling a BBS whereever, but not for most people) which was just friggin' greek to them. Windows really changed all that, yet a reinstall is still likely if they get bad malware, or even just an install of some third party stuff that screws things up.

And most people could install it, get it up and working on their own - something they had an inordinate amount of trouble with when it was just DOS, and it has gotten better and better over the years. I walked hundreds and hundreds through it, and until we got to the point of setting up stuff that was specific to the mfr or vendor I was doing stuff for, it was just "next", "next", "next"...

I watched that bite businesses. One of the places I used to work, an ISP that is no longer there, depended, as did a number of them, on selling their expertise. Windows came out and people could actually hook up with nothing more than a small scrap of paper with their user name, password, and mail servers, and lots of them did.

Even grandmas did it.

The guy that owned the place used to just rail at customers and everyone else for buying such crap software (they would have fired a SUN employee had they tried to distribute such garbage), but what he didn't understand is that people have lives outside of his narrow little computer world, and they don't get this stuff because they are so enamored of the software - they get it so it can do a job and they can go on to what is really important, to them. And when it slows them down, or if they have to pay someone to help them, it often gets set aside, as it should, and they go on to something else that someone put an ordinary amount of thought into.

Win 8, on the other hand, appears to be reverting back, and lots of businesses are saying screw that and stopping with 7. Lots of users appear to be sorry they ever tried 8, and Microsoft, from what I was reading, is even thinking about coming out with something else. Again. boneheads.

Once one gets past this, Mint is pretty good, and each release is better than the last. But users don't like questions they don't have enough information for, and it always leaves a nagging thought in their heads, which can often times lead them to something else. No reason for it.

[PrestonLocke]

7. Worthless rant for an answer that could be figured out by googling it.

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:52 PM - Edit history (1)

smh...

[jtuck004]

8. If that were true the link would be in your email. So much hot air. n/t

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:58 PM - Edit history (1)

[PrestonLocke]

9. I had no problem googling /etc/gnome/defaults.list

and finding an explanation.

[uriel1972]

12. true for you, but in the quest to make linux more acceptable...

and less a geek only OS maybe they should have thought about it a bit more. Unless of course you want to keep it a geek only OS