a question

[steve2470]

quote from site:

Uploaded by omgwtfbbqstfu on Oct 27, 2008

police trolling social networking sites to arrest people for just holding a weapon.

on why efforts to disarm are counterproductive http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

Comments please ? I'm not trying to start any problems, only seeking feedback from Brits who know the reality.

sorry, eta:

[fedsron2us]

1. Remember the British ruling classes still regard the French Revolution as a present danger

They worry that the Levellers might stage a comeback and fear that the Peasants Revolt might get a second wind. For certain, they do not want the common man getting the idea that they might be able to take up arms and get back all the land and money they have looted from them over the centuries. Repressive legislation in the UK as old as the Black Act, the Combination Laws and the Sedition Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_Act_1799
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_1661
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seditious_Meetings_Act_1817

In Britain the State likes to keep its monopoly of on the ownership and use of weapons.

[steve2470]

2. thanks for those links nt

[LeftishBrit]

3. As presented, this is a load of rubbish

Britain never had a gun culture like that of the USA; rules on guns were tightened up somewhat after the Dunblane massacre, but it's not as though most people, especially in towns, had guns before that - most traditional gun owners in Britain are farmers, or members of the huntin', shootin' and fishin' fraternity and their underlings.

And while the country is not perfect on civil liberties and has a bit of a surveillance fetish, it is not to my mind notably less free than America: indeed more so in some important respects: we don't have the death penalty; we do not try children as adults; and there is in my opinion more social tolerance of various forms of nonconformity than in many parts of America. On the other hand, I do wish that like you, we had a written constitution.

Here is a link to factual, non-hysterical information on civil liberties issues in the UK, by the campaigning organization Liberty (the National Council of Civil Liberties).

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/campaigns/

Our civil liberties here have been tarnished not by gun control, but by excessive collaboration with Bush and the War on Terra. Though in my opinion the nadir of civil liberties for the average British citizen in recent times was appropriately enough in the 80s, around 1984, with Thatcher's infamous 'sus' laws - long before Dunblane and the increase in gun control. The situation was much worse in the early 20th century - e.g. the deployment of troops against striking miners in Tonypandy, or the often brutal treatment of suffragettes.

[steve2470]

4. thank you very much for this nt

[fedsron2us]

5. You need to remember that the right to bear arms

Last edited Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:21 PM - Edit history (2)

was written into the original US Constitution by the founding fathers because they envisaged the country's defence being undertaken by a citizen militia. Professional standing armies were the hall mark of 'tyrannical' European monarchical governments who regularly used them to crush internal discontent. This was something from which the US founders were keen to protect their young nation.

The UK government's distaste for its general populace possessing weapons has a lot less to do with concern for their well being and a great deal more to do with maintaining the monopoly of armed force in the hands of the state than most Britons realise. The fact many of those weapons that are in private hands belong to farmers and other members of the landed class tells its own story. In fact our history of gun misuse suggests that professional criminals and gun nuts who want to commit mass murder have no problem getting access to shooters in which to carry out their crimes. What we don't have is as many run of the mill shootings carried out as a result of domestic disputes, bar room arguments, office sackings, petty crimes etc as the USA. This is because most people in the UK who temporarily lose it for some reason do not have a gun available with which to vent their anger. When it comes to the use of force for political purposes the historical record shows that the UK state has frequently been quicker to take up arms than many of its internal opponents. This has been true from Peterloo to Tonypandy and beyond. It should be noted that after the cavalry had ridden down and killed many unarmed civilians at Peterloo the British government's first response was not to order a public enquiry into the massacre but to pass the Six Acts including one to seize arms from the populace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Acts

[LeftishBrit]

9. I have never thought that the rules laid down by the powers that be, especially those that date from

pre-democracy days, have much to do with maintaining the welfare of the population!

The thing is more that owning a gun is not one of the key preoccupations of most British people nowadays.

There is doubtless some truth in the saying that 'if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns' - but this ignores the fact that many shooting deaths are not caused by outlaws but by mostly law-abiding people who lose their tempers. And your statistics seem to bear a lot of this out.

[fedsron2us]

11. I dont think owning a gun or any other weapon has ever been a British preoccupation

outside of certain small groups such as landowners, criminal and gun fanatics. In the more turbulent past ordinary people tended to carry non lethal instruments of self defence such as the quarter staff. The only exception was really the late 14th and 15 Centuries when the crown mandated that men must practise with the longbow for war. Even during the occasional rebellion most weapons were improvised from agricultural implements such as bill hooks (in fact many weapons on the medieval battle field originated on the farm). It is the latter point where attempts by the authorities to police potential weapons other than fire arms hits difficulties since there are a huge number of everyday objects such as building tools, gardening implements and kitchen utensils which can be potentially lethal if misused. It is simply not practical to ban them all

This wiki link gives a pretty good precis of the English Laws attitude to arms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms#United_Kingdom

[steve2470]

6. one specific question about knives

Is this video a fair representation of actual current police policy, or has this been abandoned ?

Again, not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to learn. Thank you from an Anglophile.

[LeftishBrit]

7. Hi Steve...

I'm not trying to be snippy, or accusing you of trying to stir up trouble in this forum; but I would be grateful if you could say a little more about exactly why you are asking all these questions. It does sound to me as though you are in contact with people who are trying to promote a message that 'OMG, evil Britain doesn't follow the principles of the NRA and that's why it's down the drain' and I don't know whether you're trying to pick up evidence to argue against them (probably won't work), to support their views (and I wouldn't be happy to assist with this, especially as the same groups often also try to argue that we're unfree because of our welfare state); or whether you're just planning to visit the UK and to find out more in advance about what it's like. It would help to have all this more in context! I apologize for sounding suspicious, but a few years ago there was someone who kept visiting the forum to get ammunition, mostly involving right-wing British sources, for anti-immigrant policies, so I've got a bit neurotic about it.

As regards knife laws: here is some information from the British Knife Collectors Guild, which may be useful.

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html

[steve2470]

8. My 16 year old son gave me this link

Since he's a rebellious teen by nature, I cut him some slack on his views on gun control. I obviously cannot force him to agree with me, and one day he may be more "liberal" on gun control.

I am in full accord with what Brits do, honestly. Obviously your country is doing something right when your gun violence rate is so much lower than ours. I am not aware of Brits saying they cannot defend themselves at home, so again, I think your policy is the right one.

The knife issue was interesting to me. I am NOT an NRA member or in full sympathy with their views, but yes, I was curious about knives. I would never come here to criticize the UK policies, but yes, since UK is different than USA, I do get curious. For the record, I think your society is much more civilized in general than ours.

I hope all this helps. Thank you for your time, sincerely.

eta: I am a very curious person by nature so I do ask questions when I think I can get away with it.

one more eta: I really am just a supremely curious Anglophile. I've been to London twice and loved it, and to Frome (south of Bath) once. My questions are simply curiosity. I know others come here and to other sub-forums to stir up trouble or get ammunition, but honestly, I am simply extremely curious. I have no way of proving this, but yes, this is the absolute truth.

[LeftishBrit]

10. Thanks and no problem!

As I said, just checking due to earlier experiences!

I don't feel I can judge America's gun policies one way or another - it's a different culture, and there are already lots more guns around. My dislike for the NRA is mainly because they have a tendency to support Republican candidates.

I really loved America when I've been there; but I've only been to a few places - my main contacts are with Boston.

[steve2470]

12. Thank you to the UK sub-forum for tolerating my questions, sincerely

I know you could ignore me or castigate me or at worst, block me from this sub-forum.

Please know that I am a true Anglophile and have no ill intent in my heart whatsoever. I'll do my best to be non-offensive here and keep my queries to the bare minimum.

Steve

[LeftishBrit]

13. No problem; happy to have you here!

And happy to answer any queries. I realize I gave you a slightly hard time at first; but that is due to past experience with someone whom I'm still convinced is a long-term RW troll using the UK forum for ammo a few years ago. But you are obviously genuine, so no prob.! There are a few other Americans who frequent the forum, and we have a great Special Relationship with them! After all, the American DU-ers are amazingly tolerant of me and my opinons on GD.

[steve2470]

14. I'm very happy to have you here and all Brits

You enrich DU, truly.