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Sat Jun 9, 2012, 07:49 PM

A recount? Of course

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/a-recount-of-course/article_a93905d4-b230-11e1-b96e-0019bb2963f4.html

Our sentiments in the recall race for the 21st District Senate seat were with John Lehman, the Democratic challenger who appears to have wrestled the position away from Republican incumbent Van Wanggaard -- and, in so doing, to have flipped control of the state Senate from the Republicans to the Democrats.

But Lehman's win was a narrow one -- 779 votes out of more than 71,000 cast by Racine area electors.

Wanggaard has intimated that he may seek a recount of the votes. That is his right, and we strongly respect it.


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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply A recount? Of course (Original post)
hue Jun 2012 OP
hue Jun 2012 #1
eomer Jun 2012 #3
hue Jun 2012 #4
freshwest Jun 2012 #2
hue Jun 2012 #5
Lefta Dissenter Jun 2012 #6
postulater Jun 2012 #7
Lefta Dissenter Jun 2012 #10
postulater Jun 2012 #11
dragonlady Jun 2012 #12
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply .
Lefta Dissenter Jun 2012 #15
postulater Jun 2012 #17
Lefta Dissenter Jun 2012 #18
dragonlady Jun 2012 #8
hue Jun 2012 #9
sybylla Jun 2012 #20
Lefta Dissenter Jun 2012 #21
gmee2 Jun 2012 #13
emulatorloo Jun 2012 #14
Lefta Dissenter Jun 2012 #16
midnight Jun 2012 #19
fea5625252fe Jun 2012 #22

Response to hue (Original post)

Sat Jun 9, 2012, 07:50 PM

1. and maybe hand counting the votes may reveal other abnormalities!!!!

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Response to hue (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 9, 2012, 08:25 PM

3. If you mean in other races, I don't think so.

I don't know the rules in Wisconsin specifically, but recounts typically count only the one race that is disputed and no information about other races is generated.

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Response to eomer (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 9, 2012, 09:19 PM

4. I mean that a hand recount may result in a much larger margin for Lehman...

which would indicate hacking. But absentee ballots were still allowed to be handed in on Fri.

I realize non of the other races would be recounted unless we find real evidence of election fraud--which I think there is.
Nonetheless, if the Lehman/ Wanggaard race shows voting machine hacking (by examining the tallies under a microscope so to speak) it would cast great doubt on the other races.

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Response to hue (Original post)

Sat Jun 9, 2012, 07:58 PM

2. I wish Barrett would have done the same. I take it Wanggaard didn't concede.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 9, 2012, 09:20 PM

5. He did not concede as absentee ballots were still accepted on Fri. n/t

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Response to hue (Original post)

Sat Jun 9, 2012, 10:58 PM

6. recount does not mean handcount

The statutes direct that the ballots be "recounted" by the same method that they were "counted" the first time around. So if they are op scan, they'd just be shoved through the machine again. The only reason some ballots were handcounted in the Supreme Court race was that the memory packs didn't have enough available memory to retain the original count and recount the ballots again.

Our efforts need to go toward changing the statutes, and that's not going to happen with the current administration - but we'll keep at it.

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Response to Lefta Dissenter (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:32 AM

7. I wonder if a local municipality like a village can set its' own rules for recounts.

Could they decide to do a handcount in addition to the recount by machine?

Perhaps locally we could push for additional handcounts.

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Response to postulater (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 10:08 AM

10. Muni can't set its own rules for a recount,

though if there are issues (such as the full memory cards), those get sorted out in court between the candidates when they establish the procedures.

The muni cannot do a hand count in addition to counting by machine. That is interpreted as ANOTHER recount, which has not been ordered by the court. We (Wisconsin Citizens for Election Protection) made this specific request last year, sending letters to all of the municipal and county clerks in the Senate recall districts, and the GAB issued an opinion that this would be a violation of the statutes.

Another approach we've taken is requesting a 100% post-election machine test (by hand counting all of the ballots and comparing to machine totals), but we couldn't get that to fly, either - same response, that it would be considered a non-court-ordered (and therefore illegal) recount.

What we need, while we work on educating people and trying to change the statutes and Administrative Rules (HA, not with THIS legislature and Governor), is for some brave municipal clerks to say "fine, so take me to court," and go ahead and do a hand count after the close of the polls and tallying of the machines. Ask for a jury trial - will a charge hold up in court?

Now, the municipalities with fewer than 7,500 voters can do a hand count to begin with, and larger than 7,500 can do so with permission from the GAB, but they would have had to hand count in the election, in order to do that for a recount - and the push is definitely in the other direction - away from hand counting.

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Response to Lefta Dissenter (Reply #10)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 11:11 AM

11. Can a municipality with fewer than 7500 voters decide to go to hand-count

without approval from the GAB?

Can they ditch the scanners on their own from the start?

Maybe that is a way to get accurate counts, if we can convince the clerk to ditch the scanners.

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Response to postulater (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 11:55 AM

12. That's pretty unlikely to happen

In a November election we can have president, senator, congressperson, state senator and rep, a few local officials like sheriff and clerk of court, and sometimes a referendum or two. Same situation in spring elections, with lots of judges. Counting all the ballots for all the positions would take a very long time, and who would want to approve that? The ideal situation is to use technology to help but make sure it is accurate by using open-source software that the computer mavens among us would pick apart for "bugs."

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Response to postulater (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 09:58 PM

15. .

Dragonlady is right - unlikely to happen in the November election. Some munis were willing to last summer, when there was just the one race on the ballot. It saved them money on programming and ballot printing. But the GAB does not support our position at this time.

Sorry I have to keep this brief. I managed to break my elbow today, so I can't type.

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Response to Lefta Dissenter (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 11:04 PM

17. Thanks. Sorry about the elbow. Big cast?

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Response to postulater (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 03:51 PM

18. Thanks

And no, just some of Rush Limbaugh's drugs and a sling.

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Response to Lefta Dissenter (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 01:51 AM

8. According to GAB website, Racine uses Eagle optical scan

Those are the ones that had to be hand counted during the Supreme Court recount. Perhaps someone from Racine could confirm whether the machines are still the same this year.

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Response to dragonlady (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 08:52 AM

9. maybe the fact that these were Eagle scanners was the reason the Repukes couldn't

control the numbers!! I'm hoping for a hand count & possibly name checks (prob too much to ask!).

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Response to Lefta Dissenter (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:37 AM

20. But just like with the Kloppenburg recount

the ballots can be observed as they are fed through the machine allowing for a "hand count" and a visual verification of the numbers.

There were no reports of significant variation between machine counts on election day and observable counts for the recount sufficient to suggest scanner hacking.

Additionally, in WI, we do have random audits in every county of election results as part of the canvass. Significant anomalies would be reported to the GAB before certification.

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Response to sybylla (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 05:40 PM

21. only some

only some of the locations allowed observers to view the ballots as they were being fed into the machines for the recount. some locations were very protective or secretive and did not allow people to look at the ballots.

The random audits are done only after the November general elections, and the election officials are given as much as 2 weeks notice that they are to perform an audit. The supreme court recount did nothing to verify the accuracy of the machines, because no matter how much it lookEd like the ballots might have been tampered with, there were no actual challenges made.

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Response to hue (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:23 PM

13. Even if Lehman won it is irrelevant at this point...

The Senate here in Wisconsin is out of session and they will not be back until after the next election. So the makeup of the state legislature can change. Like I stated in a previous post. the tea party is alive and well here in Wisconsin. It is time to get to work so if Lehman wins after the recount they don't take the senate back in November.

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Response to gmee2 (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 05:14 PM

14. I think Walker would call a special session if the Senate was in Republican hands.

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 10:01 PM

16. eggzactly

He still might do so - another so-called "jobs" session, so he can blame the dems for not passing any of their bullshit bills.

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Response to hue (Original post)

Tue Jun 12, 2012, 01:50 AM

19. I wonder where they will find the extra votes. Nickolaus has been observed passing out election

supplies... despite not being in charge of election duties....


"While Waukesha County Executive Dan Vrakas and his chief of staff insisted both Monday and Tuesday that County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus is not the one in charge of election duties this recall election, her actions say otherwise.

While Nickolaus has refused to respond to this reporter's questions in her office, turning her back and closing her office door while the reporter waited at a service counter, her deputy, Kelly Yaeger, hasn't responded, either.

Nickolaus has been observed passing out election supplies to local clerks leading up to Tuesday's election, and she's the one who's fielded questions Tuesday from the field, said Gina Kozlik, Waukesha's deputy clerk-treasurer.

Shawm Lundie, Vrakas' chief of staff, said he was confident procedures put in place with Yaeger will assure smooth reporting of votes Tuesday night. He also said Yaeger, while fully competent, is free to ask Nickolaus to assist her."





http://wisconsinwave.org/news/mjs-more-reports-surface-waukesha-kathy-nickolaus-still-charge

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Response to hue (Original post)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 06:35 PM

22. superb stuff

 

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