HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » The DU Lounge (Forum) » Can we admit at long last...

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:40 PM

Can we admit at long last that Tim Burton's Batman sucks and always did?

I know that there was a long stretch during which people tried to pretend that it was a good or interesting or even passable film, but perhaps with the span of years we can look at it objectively and identify it as the piece of garbage that it really is.

Some nostalgic fans will protest that it's better than Nolan's Batman Begins, and it's okay to pity these delusional souls. Not only is Nolan's film far superior, but Burton's crapfest would suck even if there had never been another Batman film. Heck, even the Adam West film from 1966 was better.

So on this day of thanks and reflection, let's finally stop lying to Burton and agree once and for all that his Batman was awful.

Thank you for your time.

46 replies, 5763 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 46 replies Author Time Post
Reply Can we admit at long last that Tim Burton's Batman sucks and always did? (Original post)
Orrex Nov 2012 OP
TrogL Nov 2012 #1
Archae Nov 2012 #2
Frank Cannon Nov 2012 #3
Orrex Nov 2012 #4
WinkyDink Nov 2012 #5
Orrex Nov 2012 #7
Frank Cannon Nov 2012 #14
Orrex Nov 2012 #19
cecilfirefox Nov 2012 #20
Paladin Nov 2012 #25
TrogL Nov 2012 #28
WinkyDink Nov 2012 #27
Orrex Nov 2012 #29
tonekat Nov 2012 #6
Orrex Nov 2012 #8
Frank Cannon Nov 2012 #12
fishwax Nov 2012 #9
WooWooWoo Nov 2012 #10
ohiosmith Nov 2012 #11
Joe Shlabotnik Nov 2012 #13
Frank Cannon Nov 2012 #15
Liberal Veteran Nov 2012 #22
Frank Cannon Nov 2012 #30
ElboRuum Nov 2012 #16
DerekG Nov 2012 #17
Orrex Nov 2012 #18
HopeHoops Nov 2012 #21
NewJeffCT Nov 2012 #23
LP2K12 Nov 2012 #24
ElbarDee Nov 2012 #26
edbermac Nov 2012 #31
JCMach1 Nov 2012 #32
dr.strangelove Nov 2012 #33
Orrex Nov 2012 #35
dr.strangelove Nov 2012 #41
Orrex Nov 2012 #42
dr.strangelove Nov 2012 #46
white_wolf Nov 2012 #34
lunatica Nov 2012 #36
Downtown Hound Nov 2012 #37
Honeycombe8 Nov 2012 #38
sakabatou Nov 2012 #39
FrodosPet Nov 2012 #40
DerekG Nov 2012 #43
BarackTheVote Nov 2012 #44
Frank Cannon Nov 2012 #45

Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:49 PM

1. Sorry, I liked it and I've got pretty high standards

It's probably my second favourite after The Dark Knight.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 04:12 PM

2. I liked the first one, with Jack Nicholson and Michael Keaton.

I haven't liked any since.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 07:13 PM

3. I'm a lifelong Batman fan, and I liked it and still do.

It had its faults (don't get me started on the Joker's backstory), but overall it wasn't bad, and I particularly thought Michael Keaton did a great job.

I also LOVED Batman Begins, but I thought the next two movies (aside from Heath Ledger's performance in TDK, which I thought was creative and frightening) were overall outlandish, pretentious horseshit. Those movies took themselves way, WAY too seriously.

I predict that in 20 years, history will look back more kindly on Burton's first Batman movie than Nolan's last two.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frank Cannon (Reply #3)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 07:30 PM

4. I admit that Keaton did a better job than I expected

Not that I thought he was a bad actor; I just thought that he was wrong for the role, but he surprised me.

I hated the cinematography, the sets, the orchestral score, the Prince soundtrack, Robert Wuhl, Eckhart, Pat Hingle (a fine actor poorly cast), the uniformly lily-white cast (with one quickly abandoned exception), the Joker's backstory (as you note), the effects, the pacing, the Batmobile, the Batwing (in general and for its full moon silhouette), the fight scenes, and the interminable ending. Not to mention the fact that it made people think that Burton was a visionary director, when he was (and generally remains) straight-down-the-pipe conventional.

It was praised at the time for its darkness, and maybe it impressed newcomers to the genre. Heck, I give it props for a hugely successful marketing campaign, because even people who hated comic books were dying to see it.

There are simply too many things that I have to overlook, excuse, and forgive about it for me to enjoy it as a film. I can't share your optimism about your 20-year prediction.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 07:33 PM

5. As a long-time (ca. 1957) "World's Finest" comic version fan, I think the emphasis on "dark"

reflects a more current Zeitgeist, and, as with spinach, I say THWI!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WinkyDink (Reply #5)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 09:01 PM

7. That's fair, but the "current" zeitgeist has been around for 30+ years

O'Neill's run in the early 80's was quite dark, especially with Gene Colan as penciller. Miller brought it to a new level in 1986, of course, but primary-universe DU had Batman as a pretty dark figure for at least quite a few years before that. And let's not forget that early-era Batman was darler still. Overall, the jolly, Superfriends-esque Batman is something of an anomaly in the thematic arc of the character.

YMMV, of course, but I've always preferred the darker version. Certianly I found Ledger's Joker far more interesting than Nicholson's or Romero's.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #7)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 10:42 PM

14. I'm sick to death of the "dark" superhero.

I think a lot of people are. I suspect this is one reason the Avengers movie was so overwhelmingly popular. It really was a pretty stupid movie, but the character interactions were great and it was--let's face it--FUN to watch. The Dark Knight Rises was a confused butt-numbing ordeal.

I'm not wishing for a return to 1960s silliness for the silver-screen Batman character, but I hope that future Batman films can bring back some sense of humor and fun. (Yes, that's possible to do without being campy. See Skyfall, if you haven't.) Nolan tried to make our favorite character into Travis Bickle in a bat suit, and I'm sorry, but I eventually just found that extremely tiresome.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frank Cannon (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:50 AM

19. If a future big-screen Batman reinjects an element of humor, that's fine

I suspect that it will be more in the vein of Iron Man and The Avengers, rather than along the lines of Burton's film, though.


In addition, even though The Avengers did spectacularly well at the box office (and I would disagree with your assessment of it), both The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises each brought in over a billion, so it's far from certain that WB would want to switch gears too sharply on such an extremely lucrative franchise.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frank Cannon (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:47 AM

20. I really disagree- I like films where the character seem real and relatable,

at the same time, I enjoy the more lighthearted films, like the Avengers, and even Hellboy 2(which really wasn't half bad).

However, Americans seem to be very fancy of tv shows and movies with dumbdowned plots that have no actually consistency. I mean, remember Lost? LOL

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frank Cannon (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:04 AM

25. Totally Agree With You.


The later Batman flicks are way too dark---and I say that as someone who doesn't shy away from darkly-themed movies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frank Cannon (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:01 PM

28. Batman is a "shadow" archetype

I'm starting to join those thinking Batman is real and Bruce Wayne the shadow.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:30 AM

27. Hehheh. I stopped reading comics before I turned thirty. :-) Now I just collect the old ones.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WinkyDink (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 02:27 PM

29. Yeah, it's been ages since I bought any comics

The last ones that I scooped up were Gaiman's Sandman, and when that wrapped up I pretty much stopped altogether.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 07:56 PM

6. I Can't that 1989 version anymore

I like Nicholson, but that sucked. The Dark Knight is so much better. IMHO, anyway.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tonekat (Reply #6)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 09:03 PM

8. Fun fact: I saw the Burton Batman on opening weekend with a woman named Robin

After we were seated, I went out to the concession area and, upon my return, had difficulty finding her. So I went to the very front and center of the theater, faced the crowd, and yelled "Robin, where are you?!?"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #8)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 10:25 PM

12. LOL

Thanks for my laugh of the day.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 09:09 PM

9. I think Batman Begins is highly overrated.

Fortunately, Nolan found his feet again with The Dark Knight.

Even so, you're probably right that it's better than the Burton flick. I haven't seen that in several years, but I thought it, too, was quite overrated at the time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 09:22 PM

10. Michael Keaton was a better batman than Christian Bale was

though Heath Ledger was a better joker.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 09:38 PM

11. Wrong!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 10:37 PM

13. Never was a fan of comic book/super hero genre movies

Not even when I was a kid. In fact I lament that today, such a massive segment of cinema is based around it. So, not a fan of any of 'em.

On edit: for example 'Skyfall' was ruined by an obvious tilt to modern cartoonish drama.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joe Shlabotnik (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 10:55 PM

15. I'm hoping it will eventually die out...

as a popular genre, but I doubt it. The Hollywood PTBs know that they can make a Batman movie where The Dark Knight does nothing but sit on the toilet chain-smoking cigarettes and reading the Wall Street Journal, and millions of comic book fanboys are guaranteed to come see it on opening weekend.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Frank Cannon (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 09:21 AM

22. It sounds like a brilliant metaphor.

The toilet is Gotham. The cigarettes represent the pollution and corruption of Gotham. The WSJ represents the fat cats who cannot do anything about the corruption.

Can I buy tickets to the midnight opening?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:14 PM

30. See, I told you.

These screenplays practically write themselves.

The only thing that I forgot to mention is that the movie needs to be DARK in order to satisfy the "shadow archetype" meme. So one of the fluorescent lights over Batman's toilet stall should be out and just barely flickering.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 11:04 PM

16. No Batman film by any director...

...has ever truly managed to capture the essence of the Dark Knight.

Whether its Tim Burton's camp or the myriad of poor choices for the lead or supporting characters, or maybe, like the multiple attempts at a Dune film, there is a quality of the original comics that just can't be translated to film with appropriate fidelity.

The most impressive character thus far has been Heath Ledger's Joker, but Christian Bale is not, I repeat, NOT the Batman. In fact, with the pool of acting talent in that movie (Bale's awfulness notwithstanding) I am truly surprised at how wooden and uninteresting the supporting roles truly were.

Or maybe I'm just no longer impressed by the story of an orphaned gazillionaire with access to near infinite resources tooling around the big city in many of his custom road warrior vehicles, armed with an array of tech that would make any futurist salivate with envy, trying to fight ubercrime and somehow managing to barely do it in the most circuitous and difficult manner possible.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 11:59 PM

17. No. Burton's Batman helped me wash the bitter aftertaste of TDKR.

You don't like superhero movies that are operatic, eminently quotable, and gorgeous to look at?

Well, I don't like superhero movies that are dour, convoluted, and pretentious.

What would Nicholson's Joker say? "Christopher Nolan needs an enema!"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DerekG (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 12:48 AM

18. Surely you're not describing Burton's film as "operatic, eminently quotable, & gorgeous to look at?"

Shlocky, corny, and overpraised is more like it. Even the art design, which is Burton's sole strength, such as it is, is crappy in that film.

And you know what's even worse? Batman Returns.


Honestly, I have no idea how Burton has managed to fool people into believing that he's a good director. To date he's had perhaps three good films, and two of them are good primarily because Depp is excellent in them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 09:16 AM

21. Well, Kilmer was convincing, but the Clooney one DEFINITELY sucked.

 

The only thing that saved Clooney was The Aaaahhnold. He played a very convincing Mr. Freeze. Danny DeVito did a good Penguin too - and I don't think anyone could top Jim Carrey as The Riddler. Alfred was good too.

The Nolan works are far more realistic than they are comic bookish. They're definitely better movies on all counts. I like Burton's work, but it works better for things that do not have to have a shred of reality involved - "Nightmare Before Christmas", "Corpse Bride", etc.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:43 AM

23. I thought it was a pretty good movie

but, the Batman movies that came after it with Keaton, then Kilmer & Clooney all pretty much sucked, so it makes the "first" one look bad in comparison, I think. Yes, Nicholson was campy at times, but if you look through the camp, he was also a psychotic killer in the movie.

While it's not as dark as the Nolan films, it was dark compared to what many people thought of for Batman - the camp show from the 60s and the Justice League cartoon from the 70s were what many who saw it in 1989 thought of when they thought Batman. Heck, I was an avid comic book collector in the 70s and 80s and I had always looked down on DC Comics as silly & childish until Frank Miller put out his Batman graphic novels. The Batman movie was the first time many had seen Batman in that kind of dark light, as a Dark Knight instead of campy 60s hero, or wholesome cartoon good guy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 10:56 AM

24. I don't think it sucked...

I'm a fan of both Burton and Nolan's work...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:25 AM

26. I am just waiting for the Hobbit to come out. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 11:55 PM

31. I'd give it 3 out of 4 stars.

Burton is a quirky director with a great visual flair but his preference for style over substance prevented it from being a great film.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 08:36 AM

32. Reeked... I love and HATE Burton

because he makes two types of movies

Really Good

and

Horribly Horribly Bad

Batman was the latter...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 10:17 AM

33. Only after you admit that you were on a bad trip when you came up with this idea

Burton's Batman is an incredibly beautiful film. It was a study of perfect camp and notag. I will always appreciate it. When it first came out, I was in high school and really hated it. It was not until I grew up that I realized what an incredible work it is. Batman Begins is a good film, a summer blockbuster with some fair acting by Freeman, less so for Bale and Holmes. In terms of what film is more exciting, of course its the latter, but that is a product of the times. Which is a better piece of film lore, the former of course.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dr.strangelove (Reply #33)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:07 PM

35. I don't accept that Burton has ever been the master of camp or even kitsch that's credited to be

Sure, he takes broad swipes at them, but it's as though he sort of knows where they are yet can't quite find them, so he swings wildly and hopes for the best.

Sometimes it works very well, as in Edward Scissorhands, and sometimes it doesn't, as in the entirety of his career otherwise.


I disliked Burton's Batman when it came out, for reasons that I've already mentioned, and I've only grown to dislike it more as time has passed. I would say the same even if Batman Begins didn't exist; I said so before Batman Begins was even announced.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:11 PM

41. That is fine

Opinions are like ...

I think its clear from this thread though, that "we" can not admit to your proposal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dr.strangelove (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 07:16 PM

42. You're the wrongest ever. How can you be so wrong, Mr Wrongy Wrongson?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #42)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:16 AM

46. Wrongness can be rightness but rightness is always wrongness

Best Regards,
Mr. Wrongy Wrongson

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:03 PM

34. Burton's Batman was decent and that's being generous

mainly because Keaton did a really good job I think. However, I was not a fan of Jack's Joker. I HATE the fact that Batman kills people. It just shows Burton has no respect for the character or his story. However, as bad as Batman was Batman Returns was even worse. God that was terrible. I really don't like Burton in general. I view him as an overrated hack.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:20 PM

36. Tim Burton's Batman was one of the first CGI movies depicting comic books

and thus deserves it's place in movie history. Especially comic book movies.

I don't always get the constant comparisons as to which is best or worst. Sometimes it's good to just appreciate a movie's place in history or some of it's aspects. Movie goers should watch movies for their full value. Cinematography, special effects, mood, acting, dialogue, writing, music, etc.

Anyway, I love movies. Almost all genres. The only ones I don't like are slasher horror movies. I don't see the point in gratuitous violence without even a message as to why. It's just slasher porn as far as I'm concerned. Everything else, including a good horror movie I appreciate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 02:04 PM

37. I never thought it sucked

But I never did figure out why it was the massive hit that it was. It wasn't that good. I honestly think that if it didn't have Jack Nicholson as the Joker and the massive PR blitz associated with it, it never would have been even remotely as successful as it was.

Truth is, I'm not a big fan of superhero movies. I like the first two old Superman moves, the recent Amazing Spider Man, Iron Man one and two, and the Avengers. Pretty much all the others, including the new Batman movies, and the Sam Raimi Spider Man series, are just ho hum for me.

It always seems to me that everybody is always looking for Hollywood to make the best superhero movie. I'm just looking for them to come up with some new ideas instead of just rehashing old ones.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:50 PM

38. I'd have to see it first, before I could agree. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:51 PM

39. Not as bad as Joel Schumacher's

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 12:02 AM

40. Sorry, I cannot.

Not the greatest movie of all time, but I liked it. Jack Nicholson as "The Joker" makes even the worst movie good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 12:44 AM

43. Danny Elfman's score is absolutely breathtaking

Remember the opening credits? THAT'S what a superhero flick should sound and look like.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 02:51 AM

44. Disagree!

Burton's Batman hasn't aged particularly well, and, yeah, Batman straight-up murdering people isn't in-keeping with the character, to put it mildly (won't use guns, unless they're 50 cals strapped onto his Batmobile? LOL), but in general, I think it works. Elfman's score is amazing and gives me goosebumps to this day. Nolan's Batman Begins is poorly written, its fight scenes are badly choreographed, the cinematography is drab, and the third act is a complete abortion. And any Batman fan should be mortified by the sacrilegious misuse of Ra'as al Ghul (you take a villain whose primary attribute is he cannot die and you kill him off? WTF?) At least Burton's film feels coherent and has atmosphere.

But the best thing to come from Tim Burton's Batman is hands-down the Bruce Timm animated series, and I will go to the mat with anyone who disagrees. Paul Dini, one of the primary writers on the show, gets the character like nobody else. His scripts for the video games Arkham Asylum and Arkham City are pitch perfect and a beautifully mature the animated series into something truly definitive and majestic. THOSE are the Batman movies I'm waiting for.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BarackTheVote (Reply #44)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:49 AM

45. No disagreement from me. I'll join you on that mat.

The Animated Series is absolutely the best portrayal of Batman we've ever seen. Everything about that series was absolutely on the mark. I hope whoever "reboots" Batman for the big screen in the future studies that series in detail and learns from it well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread