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Sat May 12, 2012, 05:25 PM

Why do Avengers get a movie when Dauntlesses sank more ships?

The Avenger was a fine plane, but the Dauntless was bad-ass.

Underpowered and slow, it nevertheless managed to shriek from the clouds, coming down in a near-vertical dive before it dropped its payload at the last second, before leveling off and getting away.

Avengers didn't do shit at Midway. Dauntlesses sank four Japanese carriers, which turned the tide of the whole damn war.

Hollywood.

You won't be getting my hard-earned cash this summer.

38 replies, 3875 views

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Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why do Avengers get a movie when Dauntlesses sank more ships? (Original post)
taterguy May 2012 OP
El Supremo May 2012 #1
taterguy May 2012 #2
El Supremo May 2012 #3
taterguy May 2012 #6
Kaleva May 2012 #11
Codeine May 2012 #15
Kaleva May 2012 #16
caraher May 2012 #18
Kaleva May 2012 #19
taterguy May 2012 #22
Kaleva May 2012 #23
Swede May 2012 #4
JVS May 2012 #5
taterguy May 2012 #9
NewJeffCT May 2012 #7
taterguy May 2012 #8
Populist_Prole May 2012 #10
taterguy May 2012 #12
caraher May 2012 #17
oneshooter May 2012 #34
Populist_Prole May 2012 #26
taterguy May 2012 #30
Ptah May 2012 #13
taterguy May 2012 #14
BrownianNotion May 2012 #20
mucifer May 2012 #24
Ptah May 2012 #29
taterguy May 2012 #31
Son of Gob May 2012 #21
NoPasaran May 2012 #25
caraher May 2012 #27
taterguy May 2012 #28
Hayabusa May 2012 #32
taterguy May 2012 #33
El Supremo May 2012 #36
Hayabusa May 2012 #37
taterguy May 2012 #38
bluedigger May 2012 #35

Response to taterguy (Original post)

Sat May 12, 2012, 09:17 PM

1. Wrong! It's about this:

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Response to El Supremo (Reply #1)

Sat May 12, 2012, 09:48 PM

2. How the fuck would you know?

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Response to taterguy (Reply #2)

Sat May 12, 2012, 10:19 PM

3. Because I'm not a dumbass like you...

They've never made a good movie about Midway. The plane that really won the Battle of Midway was the Devastator. The torpedo squadrons drew all the AA and CAP away from the dive bombers.

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Response to El Supremo (Reply #3)

Sun May 13, 2012, 07:12 AM

6. A good movie about Midway would be too expensive to make

None of the aircraft carriers from that battle are still around so they'd have to recreate them, probably with CGI which just doesn't look right.

Same goes for the airframes.

There wouldn't be enough potential ticket-buyers to make it worth the trouble.

Nevertheless, John Ford's documentary about it is decent and worth watching.


http://archive.org/details/the_battle_of_midway

And another thing: Midway wasn't the only battle where Dauntlesses fought. During the first two years of the war when a Japanese ship was sunk by an American plane, it was almost always a Dauntless.

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Response to El Supremo (Reply #3)

Sun May 13, 2012, 06:03 PM

11. Reminds me of a board game I used to play.

The guy who played the Germans would place his AT guns, Panthers and Tigers in the woods undercover where I couldn't see them unless one of my own units was right next to them or they fired at one of my units.

Not wanting to get my best and brightest shot up before they had a chance to fight, I created the "Kamikaze Truck Corps". These were empty deuce and a half transportation trucks that's I'd send screaming across open ground hoping to draw enemy fire. The guy playing the Germans was too smart to open fire on mere trucks which would give away his positions so I had to move the trucks right next next to where I thought he might be hidden. The enemy would be found and my brave members of the "Kamikaze Truck Corps", armed with their .45 caliber pistols would shoot it out with the enemy. Those truck drivers died bravely but fast (it was an unequal battle). The important thing was that I learned the hiding places of the enemy. Especially of those freaking Tiger tanks which could blow the shit out of my Shermans if they got the first shot.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #11)

Sun May 13, 2012, 07:57 PM

15. In Advanced Squad Leader we have a move called the Vehicle Bypass Move Sleaze.

You move a truck into one of the enemy gun positions and leave it there at the end of its move in Bypass Mode (in other words, just passin' through.) If there's an enemy unit in a hex you can't fire, so your piddly little deuce-and-a-half effectively shuts down an entire enemy position.

Ah, rules lawyers.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #15)

Sun May 13, 2012, 08:37 PM

16. A good name for that move! Here's an eaxample of the importance of LOS.

In another Avalon Hill game I played the Germans and the other guy was the Russians. My objective was to break thru his defenses and take a town at the other end of the board in so many moves. As he was the defender, he set up his units first. I looked and looked at his positions and wondered how I was to be able to pull this off. Then I noticed that he had left a single row of hexes uncovered that went right thru his lines of defense. I loaded up my infantry on trucks and placed my tanks accordingly. My friend asked me what the heck I was doing and I told him to watch and see.

I had the first turn and I drove pedal to the metal down that single row of hexes. I couldn't get all the way thru by the end of my turn but my friend could see that he had no way of stopping me so he started pulling his units back in a race to try and defend the town. By the end of my second turn, all my units were thru and I was on my way to the town to attack it. My friend managed to get a few units back there but they were easily dealt with and I won the game.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #11)

Sun May 13, 2012, 10:20 PM

18. Speaking of Shermans...

There's a great book called "Death Traps" by Belton Cooper, who was involved in recovering and repairing knocked out American tanks in France and Germany. The shocking part to me was that the Army pretty much lied to crews about the relative capabilities of the Sherman. I don't think there was anything unsound about the doctrine of using lighter vehicles for deep penetration and avoiding slugfests with German heavy armor, but as I recall Cooper painted a picture of tank crews in the states being told the Sherman could stand up to anything the Germans had in the field.

I used to play an old computer game where you command a Sherman, and the only routine that worked at all for me when I'd encounter German tanks was to call for artillery or air support and try not to be a target.

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Response to caraher (Reply #18)

Sun May 13, 2012, 10:49 PM

19. From what I read, doctrine was for a the tank destroyers to be used to deal with the Tigers

However, the tank destroyers were not always available so local commanders would send in the Shermans to take on the German heavyweight and alot of tankers died doing this.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #11)

Mon May 14, 2012, 07:35 AM

22. Reminds me of the time someone engaged in egregious thread-jacking

BTW, the torp squadrons played no role in the Dauntlesses finding the Japanese fleet.

The credit for that goes to an American submarine that a Japanese destroyer was chasing. The dive bombers saw the destroyer and followed it to the carriers.

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Response to taterguy (Reply #22)

Mon May 14, 2012, 08:10 AM

23. What the heck does your comment have to do with Avalon Hill board games and sherman tanks?

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Sat May 12, 2012, 10:27 PM

4. Hulk smash!

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Sat May 12, 2012, 11:23 PM

5. I totally agree!

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Response to JVS (Reply #5)

Sun May 13, 2012, 09:41 AM

9. Thanks!

Totally!

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2012, 07:29 AM

7. Because Scarlett Johansson

looks great in a tight black leather suit?

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Response to NewJeffCT (Reply #7)

Sun May 13, 2012, 08:46 AM

8. Fascinating

But completely irrelevant to the subject of this discussion.

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2012, 05:30 PM

10. A lot of PTO action after midway.

The Dauntless was a pre-war design, the avenger just coming into its own during Midway. The SBD really did make a good account of itself though.

Other remark about the TBD Devestator at Midway was true. They took the shellacking the SBD's would have got if they got there first.

I liked the movie 'Midway' but one detail was so lame: The use of hand microphones by the USN pilots.

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Response to Populist_Prole (Reply #10)

Sun May 13, 2012, 06:11 PM

12. Did you read the fucking book?

American Military Aircraft, copyright 2003 by Amber Books Ltd.

It clearly states:

"SBDs sank more Japanese shipping than any other US aircraft in the Pacific."

Yes, there was lots of PTO action after Midway (Whatever the hell that is).

But the fact remains that Dauntlesses still sank more ships than any other US airplane.

ps: You only noticed one lame detail in the movie Midway? Not even the jet crashing into the flight deck. Pay more attention next time.

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Response to taterguy (Reply #12)

Sun May 13, 2012, 10:10 PM

17. At least the movie wasn't called "Helldivers"

Pretty much a non-upgrade upgrade relative to the Dauntless.

Avengers had their uses but yeah, it was the SBD that did the heavy lifting sinking Japanese ships.

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Response to caraher (Reply #17)

Mon May 14, 2012, 06:32 PM

34. SB2C "Helldiver" aka "The Ensign Killer"

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Response to taterguy (Reply #12)

Mon May 14, 2012, 01:38 PM

26. No need to get nasty. PTO = Pacific Theatre (of ) operation

I haven't read THAT very book, but have been an avid reader of WW2, especially in regards to hardware. I'm the sort that remembers technical details of aircraft/vehicles like a sports fanatic memorizes batting averages.

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Response to Populist_Prole (Reply #26)

Mon May 14, 2012, 04:54 PM

30. Welcome to DU!

One of the things you'll notice if you hang around here long enough is that I never need a reason to be nasty.

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2012, 06:39 PM

13. The movie is not about planes.

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Response to Ptah (Reply #13)

Sun May 13, 2012, 07:10 PM

14. Well, what's it about then Mr Smartypants?

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Response to taterguy (Reply #14)

Sun May 13, 2012, 10:58 PM

20. ScarJo in a catsuit

And Hulk Smash

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Response to taterguy (Reply #14)

Mon May 14, 2012, 09:02 AM

24. Joss made another silly fun movie and this moose is happy!

Although no one should make the kinda money these people are making for a silly movie.

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Response to taterguy (Reply #14)

Mon May 14, 2012, 04:47 PM

29. I'd rather be a Mr Smartypants than a dumbass.

It's about some cartoon characters.

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Response to Ptah (Reply #29)

Mon May 14, 2012, 05:03 PM

31. No need to get nasty

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Sun May 13, 2012, 11:26 PM

21. More like Hollyweird

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````````\__-__/
'`'''"``.,-"/_\v/_\"-,
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`'``/``/|''`/^\`''|\`_\
'"``\`\`|`'/`|`\`|/`/
`'```\/\|`/`|``|/\/
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'`````//`^"'"^`|`\
`````/ ``|```|``\
```` /` `|```|``\
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'```` |``/` `|`\
'`````|``/ | `\
'````_ |_/ |__|
'``(___| |___ )

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Mon May 14, 2012, 10:41 AM

25. A few years ago I had a layover at Chicago Midway

Wandering around the terminal I discovered they have an SBD on display. What really impressed me about it was that the Dauntless was such a small aircraft. I've also seen an Avenger or two and they are muy grande.

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Response to NoPasaran (Reply #25)


Response to NoPasaran (Reply #25)

Mon May 14, 2012, 04:43 PM

28. I was stuck at Midway a couple hours once

Now I'm bummed I missed the Dauntless.

Must have been in a different part of the airport.

I'm thinking about roadtripping to Charleston so I can tour the Essex-class Yorktown.

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Mon May 14, 2012, 05:49 PM

32. Well, I'm sure those Avengers

while not Dauntless', will certainly sink a Battleship that's coming after them...

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Response to Hayabusa (Reply #32)

Mon May 14, 2012, 06:13 PM

33. Name one battleship sunk by Avengers

I'm waiting.

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Response to taterguy (Reply #33)

Mon May 14, 2012, 07:08 PM

36. Musashi

19 torpedo hits. Plus 17 bombs from SB2Cs. The torpedoes are what sunk her.



http://padresteve.com/2011/10/25/the-battle-of-leyte-gulf-sinking-the-musashi/

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Response to taterguy (Reply #33)

Mon May 14, 2012, 11:24 PM

37. Making a joke

that the Battleship movie has absolutely no chance at all this summer compared to the Avengers. Thus, the Avengers will sink the battleship.

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Response to taterguy (Original post)

Mon May 14, 2012, 06:47 PM

35. This thread was broke but I fixed it for you.



You're welcome.

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