Have you ever wanted to Date someone

[Giantsfootball10]

but the Age difference was just to great. I am going through this now. There is this HOT-BABE that works at a supermarket right near me. She is Model-Hot. BUT she is WAY to young for me BUT I would LOVE to Date her. Plus she is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. Did I say she was HOT..

[NightWatcher]

1. Feel good now, feel bad later (if she'll have you)

Hey you never know if it'd work out till you try, right? Go for it and see what happens.

Good luck and Godspeed.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. If you want to date her, go for it!

Age is only one factor in a person's personality and degree of maturity.

[cloudbase]

3. If you don't ask, you

already know what the answer is. What's to lose?

[cliffordu]

4. Go for it -

I did and my much younger girlfriend and I are stellar!!!!

(FWIW, I'm 60 and she's 39....)

Oh, yeah - she makes a LOT more than I do.

So it ain't the money...But I am a handsome bastard.

[Ikonoklast]

5. Stay away from my Mom, dude. Seriously.

You keep going through her checkout line to buy condoms, and winking at her.

It's really creeping her out.

[kwassa]

6. She is too young for you.

Unlike others here, I think big age differences matter. The two people are generally at very different stages of life if they are 20 years apart. I've seen such relationships end because of the eventual issues that pop up.

I am seven years older than my wife, but this is a much closer gap. I have had younger women as much as 20 - 25 years younger express interest in me, which is wildly flattering, but also unrealistic,( aside from the fact that I'm already married).

Attraction is one thing. Building a relationship out of it is quite another.

[DutchLiberal]

9. So what if the relationship eventually ends?

Then they'll have had a good time, but it just didn't work out... Where's the harm?

Who says they're immediately want to marry and start a family?

[blueamy66]

62. Well, there could be a broken heart involved.

Don't want the "kid" that I know to be hurt by the older woman that he is dating.

[Moondog]

7. If you have to ask,

she's too young for you. Probably way too young.

As one old fart to another, never confuse a polite, well brought up young woman for one that is blind to a difference of too many decades. Don't be that guy. There's a reason for the cliche; don't be the exemplar.

Stick closer to your own age group. "Seasoned" women of "a certain age" have their own appeal. Ben Franklin was right about that. Perhaps your "Lolita" has a wonderfully charming older sister, aunt, or mother who would make you much happier in the long run.

FWIW.

[DutchLiberal]

10. You're only saying that because society says that's what you're "supposed" to say.

If you're honest, you know that young women are much more attractive than older women. You've seen them, so you know.

[alphafemale]

16. Old men are ugly too. Once their faces start looking like their nutsac?

Yeah. Let's all die young asshole,.

[DutchLiberal]

17. True that.

You live fast, you die young, you leave a good-lookin' corpse.

[alphafemale]

21. screw that

I'm dying old and skidding in with a used up, shriveled corpse at the wheel. (Paraphrasing HS Thompson terribly there.)

[lunatica]

44. I would love to rec your post!!!!!

[blueamy66]

63. that's a new one for me

[lunatica]

43. I find your comment really stupid

What do you suggest men do when the hot chic gets older? Drop her because she's lost that which attracted them?

Most women find men like you to be rather stupid and dense and shallow.

[DutchLiberal]

54. Women don't want to hear it, so we just pretend biology doesn't exist. Got it!

Why is it that, for the biggest part of history, older men (in their thirties or even forties) married young women half their age? For tens of thousands of years this happened. Because young women are more fertile and thus more appealing to men, who have to produce offspring. You know, to keep the species from going extinct. And yes, we have evolved over thousands of years; we live longer now; we don't HAVE to pick younger women anymore; thanks to technology women can have kids at high age nowadays; we even have birth control now, so we don't HAVE to get kids if we don't want to. All true. But all that doesn't mean that evolutionary speaking, we're still wired that way. We still have that instinct. We still think young women are more attractive (physically, I mean). But because we are SUPPOSED to not think that way anymore, we pretend this is not true. Because women don't want to hear all that, we pretend that men who do follow their nature to be "rather stupid and dense and shallow". We blame men for how they are biologically wired, because self-imposed, made-up societal mores dictate that we are too exalted to acknowledge our true nature. (You know some people even don't want to acknowledge we're mammals; that we're animals, really.)

Who ever said we should drop a hot chick when she gets older? Did I say that? Please quote me on that. You'll have a hard time finding such a quote, because there is none. That's an assumption you made, a caricature you needed to paint me as "rather stupid and dense and shallow", because I was pointing out how arbitrary some societal mores are, and some people just can't handle it when that's pointed out. So they resort to strawmen.

I'm not Newt Gingrich, so I'm not saying that whenever a woman gets older we should drop her. All I'm saying is that, when we look at physical beauty, and physical beauty alone (not regarding all the other traits women have to offer, like intellectual stimulation, or humor, or caring etc.), young women are more attractive to men than older women. No matter what age category the guy is in. And it's completely natural for an old(er) man to be more attracted to a young woman than to a woman his age, when it comes to physical appearance. But because women won't acknowledge that biological fact, we have to pretend such men are creepy or icky, because society has told us so for the past 150 years or so. (All the men in the tens of thousands of years before that must all have been sick and twisted pervs.)

[treestar]

90. So do we though

Older men are less attractive than younger ones. When I was young, I did not find older men sexy - no matter how many times I was informed that I was supposed to if they had money.

Women like men to be good looking too. Face up to that reality. Forget all that 'biology" stuff - you like to hear it because you think it gives you an advantage over women your age, but that doesn't make it true, either.

[nickinSTL]

47. that's just your opinion

and one I think is pretty short-sighted.

I'm 39 and as I get older, I find that the women I find most attractive tend to be those closer in age to me.

The most attractive woman I think I've seen (for my taste, mind you) is also 39.

Women under about 30 just seem like little girls to me these days - immature and uninteresting. Having perky breasts and no wrinkles is nice, but it doesn't last.

I'm not saying that because society "says that's what [I'm] 'supposed' to say", I'm saying it because for me, it's true.

[DutchLiberal]

55. See, you're talking about something totally different than me.

Women under about 30 just seem like little girls to me these days - immature and uninteresting. Having perky breasts and no wrinkles is nice, but it doesn't last.

I was talking about physical attraction. You are talking about attraction BEYOND physical features. You point out yourself that "perky breasts and no wrinkles" are "nice". That's what I was saying as well: that those things are attractive to men, no matter their age. That those things don't last is a given. I never denied that. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about physical attraction. Most men don't pick out a partner based on physical appearance alone. Me neither. So we don't disagree on that. We pick a partner based on 'the total package'. And we know that older women are more mature, have more life experience, are more intellectually stimulating etc. Nobody is challenging that. But when it comes to looks, young women are the most attractive to us. (Anecdotal or personal preferences don't count, so don't bother with that.) We just aren't allowed to admit that biological fact anymore, because society has decided for us that, after tens of thousands of years, that isn't "appropriate" anymore. Old men who are attracted to young women now are pervs. I don't know why; it's not an objective fact (like 2+2= 4), but we treat it that way. We never question it.

Well, I questioned it and look at the shitstorm that occurred...

[WildEyedLiberal]

58. Gee, women really can't win, can we?

If we're under 30, we're immature and uninteresting with nothing going for us but perky breasts and no wrinkles, but once we get older, we're unattractive and most men won't want to date us.

[DutchLiberal]

59. Thanks, I forgot to point that out.

How did I miss that? Women below 30 are immature little girls? Gee, I never noticed that. Now THAT'S some real condescending crap.

[nickinSTL]

64. on re-reading that, you're right

I badly misrepresented my views with a very poor choice of words.

I know what I meant, but expressed it very badly.

Immature was a poor choice of words, and I never said that older women are unattractive.

However, there's simply no defending the words I used, and they in no way accurately reflect my views on women. I'm afraid that any attempt to clarify would sound hollow and would not improve the situation.

Therefore, I will simply apologize profusely, and refrain from further comment.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. surely you jest

[DutchLiberal]

8. There is no such thing as a too big age difference.

It's all in your head --or in other people's heads. What matters is whether or not you two match. All other things don't matter. Age is a number, nothing more, nothing less.

[bluedigger]

11. Half your age plus seven.

That's your limit.

[DutchLiberal]

18. According to whom?

Why should there be limits? (Other than those the law sets, of course!)

[bluedigger]

23. I believe it's traditional Chinese wisdom.

It's just a rule of thumb, obviously. Limit was probably a poor choice of wording - how about guideline? Why are you so interested in the topic? Do you have any actual experience or anecdotal evidence you'd like to share? Or are you just pro-lechery as a matter of principal and/or self-interest?

[DutchLiberal]

28. Why should I have to explain or defend my interest in the topic to you?

I could easily ask you the same: why are you interested in the topic? If you weren't, you wouldn't have responded.

I'm always interested in the way people deal with artificial norms set up by society. I find it fascinating that so many people treat self-imposed norms as if they were natural rules. Some people even deny biological or evolutionary proof because they've been taught to think a different way their entire lives. You see that a lot with age-difference discussions. For instance, people will say a girl who's 17 years and 11 months old is a child incapable of making her own decisions, when a mere month later when she turns 18, overnight she suddenly has become a responsible adult and they will not see how completely arbitrary that line is.

Now, I don't have a personal interest in all of this. I don't have any experiences with big age differences, nor do I have my eyes set on a younger person. None of all that. But, if I had, I wouldn't see a problem with it. I'm simply fascinated by people who do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. You keep saying "she's HOT."

Is that enough to build a relationship on?

[HeiressofBickworth]

13. You're of the age

when Mother Nature thinks you should be planting your seed in fertile YOUNG women. But humans have evolved. Mother Nature has never been a good relationship counselor. I agree with the other poster who said that it would be difficult to maintain a relationship with someone who doesn't share the same life experiences you have. So, after you experience her "hotness", what will you talk about?

I'm so tempted to say that men think with their little heads.

[DutchLiberal]

19. Men DO think with their little heads.

But we recognize that and we don't throw fits and send alerts whenever somebody points that out.

[HappyMe]

27. The same go for the women dating younger men.

[OriginalGeek]

67. Anecdotally speaking

My wife is 7 years older than I am. Not as big a difference as OP is talking about I gather but just putting that out there. We've been married for 26 years in July.

But I get what DutchLiberal is saying. As long as two people are attracted to each other that's the only thing that should matter. (I am talking about all adults here - I shouldn't have to say it but just in case...)

However there WILL be inherent problems with dating outside the group of people closer to your age. She thinks Led Zeppelin is an old boring guy. You think Lady Gaga stole from Madonna. But hey, at least Adele makes both of you cry. Whaaaaat? John Belushi and Dan Akroyd and Bill Murray were the greatest SNL cast EVER! WhoTF is Andy Samberg? Oh, the Dick in A Box guy? Well, ok - he's pretty cool. But we are watching MASH reruns tomorrow!

And what OP REALLY needs to understand is that the grocery store girl doesn't like you. She thinks you're a goofy old man. After you leave with your Metamucil she's laughing with the bag boy about the old fart who keeps winking at her. She is nice to you because that is her job to be nice to everyone in her lane - for as long as they are in her lane.

So UNLESS you've been through the express lane with your American Hot Rod magazine and tray of sushi a dozen times and every time she starts talking about how much she loves the 67 Camaro but thought GM made a mistake when they changed the body style of the GTO in 71 and then asks if you are planning to share that sushi and she happens to have some soy sauce back at her place, just smile and appreciate the fact she doesn't openly gag as you walk by.

I don't feel like there is anything wrong with appreciating beauty. The mistakes are: 1. thinking that beauty appreciates you (or, worse, thinking that beauty should appreciate you like you have some right to be admired by young hot girls.) and 2. having a very narrow definition of beauty. There are beautiful women of all ages, shapes and sizes and colors.

[DutchLiberal]

70. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said.

Well, maybe except for the part where you said the grocery store girl thinks the OP is a goofy old man. We don't know his age or how he looks. For all we know, he's God's gift to women. Theoretically speaking, of course. And we can't guess the girls' thoughts. Chances are big your scenario is right, but I'm always a little wary of making such broad assumptions.

Other than that little nuance I wanted to add there, I agree with your post. I didn't mean to say that there are no beautiful women of older age, of course. Just that there are much more of a young age. (I don't want to drag out the 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' cliché, as I was trying to point out that generally, men like younger women.) Of course nobody has 'a right' to be admired by hot young girls. But it happens. If you have lots of money, a big car and a high-status job chances are young women will be attracted to you/that. You could say: "well, they only are attracted to your status" and you would be right. The question is if men care about that.

[treestar]

91. The BS about biology

Nature would not have intended older men to be the ones to plant their "seed" in younger women. Nature obviously intends for young men to do most of that "planting" or why would nature give younger men more potency? It's just stupid men who think they don't have to grow up saying that.

[lovemydog]

14. there's no rhyme or reason to attraction

I'd say just ask her out for coffee and see what she says.

[harmonicon]

15. Looks, age, etc. - no matter what, don't ask out someone where they work.

Wait until you see this person out in a social situation and see how you get along. If you run into her at a bar or coffee shop will she stop and talk to you for 15 minutes? If so, is it an enjoyable conversation? That's what matters.

I don't meet many women my age in what I do academically/professionally or in my social circles. Some girls will simply say "you're too old for me", but I've also gone out with women more than ten years younger than me.

If this isn't someone who runs in the same circles and social environments as you, she's probably not the one for you. For perspective, I'm in my 30's. I have friends who are 18 and I have friends in their 80's. Age isn't what determines whether or not we get along.

Just don't ask her out when she's at work. Even if you were the man of her dreams, you wouldn't be after that.

[HappyMe]

20. Ask her out for coffee.

If the conversation flows effortlessly, it's all good. Age doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if it seems a bit strained, no harm no foul.

[Scuba]

22. As Groucho said...

"A man's only as old as the woman he feels."


Go for it.

[nobodyspecial]

25. You sound creepy

You just dwell on her hotness, and threw in the nice so you wouldn't sound shallow. I would advise her to stay away.

[DutchLiberal]

29. You don't even know the guy, for God's sake!

I wish people would refrain from making personal attacks like that on people they never even met. You can't tell a person's personality from one post. You call the OP shallow. I don't know if he is; I don't know him. But I do think the act of calling out somebody you don't know, based on a single post, is a shallow thing to do.

[nobodyspecial]

31. Defend all you want, but a person who values and respects women

would have *never* made such a post. So, yes, based on his query, I'm sticking with creepy. He's welcome to defend himself. I would love for him to explain how HOT-BABE, Model-Hot, WAY to young, she was HOT is an acceptable way to describe a woman in a way that does not objectify her and boil her value down to looks alone.

Plus she is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. <-- and then he throws this in with the use of plus indicating that the hotness is all that's necessary. Plus, she's nice as if that was an added benefit.

So, I guess I'm shallow. I respond to people based on the actual words and characterizations they use in their posts. If actually knowing a person was a prerequisite for responding to them, my guess is that this whole Internet message board thing wouldn't get too far.

[noamnety]

33. That was my first reaction as well.

If I found out some guy was posting about me like that, I would seriously be creeped out. I would feel like the I-want-to-stick-my-dick-in-that attitude was completely overshadowing any appreciation of who I actually am.

None of that is meant as an attack on the OP, but more to let guys know when you talk like that's what you appreciate most about women, women will assume it's because that's what you appreciate most about women.

[pipi_k]

34. On the other hand...

sometimes guys who talk that way are pointing out their own fears that the person they are crushing on might be WAY out of their league.

You know? Like she's so gorgeous that she probably has a hundred guys asking her out.

Saying at the end that "Plus she's a nice person"...to me, that often translates to another point, which is that beautiful people (men and women) are often shallow and self-centered.

When I see really good looking guys, that's what I think...huh. Must be shallow, and getting by in life on his looks. Maybe even a real asshole with no personality.

This is the way I would see it.

Gorgeous (hot) guy...out of my league. And...probably a shallow person with no substance.

There is always another side to this type of situation.

[nobodyspecial]

35. I'm not above noticing a man's looks or physique

but I would never go on about him like that, even on a message board, because I don't even view people in such a one-dimensional way, even if they are out of my league.


And this reveals more about you than anything substantial in this post...
"which is that beautiful people (men and women) are often shallow and self-centered.

When I see really good looking guys, that's what I think...huh. Must be shallow, and getting by in life on his looks. Maybe even a real asshole with no personality."

And what? Ugly people are always nice because they appreciate any little kindness and fat people are jolly?


"Gorgeous (hot) guy...out of my league. And...probably a shallow person with no substance."
Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. I can't have him so good thing he's awful.

And, if there is another side, it would be great if the OP came back to share it. But, all I see are people commenting and he's disappeared.

[DutchLiberal]

38. Oooh, so you are one of those holier-than-thou people who have to let others know they're unworthy?

but I would never go on about him like that, even on a message board, because I don't even view people in such a one-dimensional way, even if they are out of my league.

Yes, because you're so much better and purer and smarter and sophisticated than all the rest of us uncivilized, shallow creatures...

[nobodyspecial]

41. Yes, that's exactly what I said.

OK. You win. Feel better?

Seriously, I'm done with this thread.

[DutchLiberal]

36. So praising a woman for her good looks is

Since when? Where did you get that from? I've seen a lot of crazy accusations on DU, but this one takes the cake. It's an entirely subjective and over-the-top, exaggerated judgment that you give, yet you present it as a fact. You're chastising somebody for giving out a compliment.

I know lots of women whom I think are 'hot'. How am I devaluing them by saying they're hot? You don't know me and you don't know the poster. You don't have even a hint of a snippet of a clue as to how him and me think about women. Yet you see one post talking about a woman's physical beauty and you jump all over it, acting all condescending and judge mental. Immediately, you're ready to portray the woman in question as a supposed victim (she's 'objectified') of a supposedly 'creepy and shallow' man.

Your post reads like you hold something against good-looking, young women. Why else the need to be so harsh on things like beauty and young age? The way you describe them, those attributes sound like sins.

Of course women never talk about guys that way! Noooo! I've never heard a girl say she thought a guy was hot or handsome or had a nice ass. Women don't ever objectify men. That's why there are no gigolo's or chippendales; and every woman appreciates George Clooney only for his acting skills.

The funny thing is: when we, men, hear a woman thinks we're hot, we're glad, we're happy. Because that's a compliment. Not an evil agenda to degrade and objectify us. And you know what? I think that goes for most women, too. I don't believe for a second you speak for most women.

Until you master the skill of mind-reading, I suggest you refrain from making insulting judgments about others, especially when they're triggered by something as benign and harmless as the OP's post.

[nobodyspecial]

40. Hmm... You certainly have been awfully involved and defensive in this post

Is the OP your other screen name? Haven't seen him back here, but you certainly seem to me monitoring it closely. Seems rather odd...

In any case, a compliment? Maybe you've never been a woman who has been leered at and drooled over. Guess what? It is not flattering at all. It's creepy, just like I said.

"Your post reads like you hold something against good-looking, young women." <-- Pot meet kettle. As you said, you know nothing about me, but I guess I don't deserve the benefit of they doubt like you want to give the OP.

Point out to me where I said anything harsh about beauty or age, where I described them like sins or where I specifically attacked the woman for it.

I admitted that that I enjoy a man's looks in #35, so you got nothing there and I never even said that women never objectify men. I think George Clooney *is* hot. But other than his good looks, his passion, politics and humor are what really make him attractive to me.

Never said I spoke for any women other than myself. You're the one who is trying to speak for most men and women.
"when we, men, hear a woman thinks we're hot, we're glad, we're happy. Because that's a compliment. Not an evil agenda to degrade and objectify us. And you know what? I think that goes for most women, too. I don't believe for a second you speak for most women."

And, I speak from experience. I have been on the receiving end of this kind of attention several times. I am attractive, but maybe not as young any more, but was once. My nature is to be nice, open and friendly, which on more than one occasion has resulted in reactions described above. I thought I was having a nice, friendly ongoing exchange with someone and then I find out that the whole time they were just after me in a sexual way. And, yes, I was not flattered, did find it creepy and it ruined future interactions. If you are that old, I'm thinking of you like my father or uncle, not a romantic or sexual interest. And, just so you don't accuse me of more crap, this is MY basis for MY comments and MY assessment of the situation. Some women like it and I find the more money older men have, the more attractive they are to hot, young women. That's just not my MO.

[DutchLiberal]

50. You're making a caricature out of something that isn't there.

You built up strawmen only to tear them down so it looks like you're right! Because nobody was talking about "leering" and "drooling over" a woman. The OP didn't say that; I didn't say that. YOU said that! You had to make a caricature out of it, otherwise you couldn't further your 'men who like pretty women are evil'-agenda.

I'm not defensive; I'm just sick and tired of a very tiny (yet vocal) minority of women on this site trying to paint EVERYTHING men do and say as something disgusting or degrading to women. Saying a woman looks good is not degrading. It's a compliment. My ex-girlfriend was hot. Am I now degrading a woman I've been with for over a year? Just because I say she's hot? Why is that? When did it become a shame to be called hot?

You were exaggerating the supposed emphasize the OP laid on the girl's physical beauty, with words like 'model hot', 'super hot', 'far too young' and some other things and you qualified that negatively. You resented the fact that a girl was appreciated for her beauty. You resented that her beauty earned her compliments. I asked myself: what is so wrong with being beautiful and what's wrong with being seen as beautiful? And why automatically assume that a guy who thinks a woman is hot THUS doesn't value everything else about said woman? That's an assumption YOU make. Because YOU made that assumption, it leads me to think YOU see pretty women as nothing more than empty vessels.

So you DO acknowledge, with your Clooney-example, that one CAN appreciate a person's good looks AND other values. Then why shouldn't a man be able to do the same thing, according to you? I don't know how well the OP knows this girl, but I've met plenty of girls about whom I knew very little and the only thing I had to go on was their looks. And isn't that what we all do when we first meet someone? You can deny you do, but scientific studies say otherwise (no, I'm not going to google them). When you're in a bar and you see a handsome man and an ugly man, both of whom you've never met, who would you go to to talk to?

Exactly. And that doesn't make you anymore creepy or shallow than the OP.

About your last paragraph: yes, you did try to speak for other women. Specifically when you said the girl the OP was talking about was way too young for him. First, you don't know her age. Second, you don't know his age. Third, you don't know whether or not she likes older men. So your whole judgment that she was "way too young" for him completely depended on your OWN views. Of course you are entitled to your own opinions. If you don't like older guys, obviously you don't have to. But to say that it IS creepy for an older man to approach a younger woman, like that's a FACT, instead of saying you THINK that is creepy, like an OPINION, is just plain wrong. There is nothing inherently creepy about an older guy going after a young woman. That's just entirely subjective.

[treestar]

92. OK as long as you don't get mad if a woman wants to know how much money you make.

Shallow is as shallow does.

[Chan790]

26. A few points:

1. How much older? If it's more than 10-15 years, it's probably that harmless flirting we all do with the old people in the retail sector. It makes them feel good, we feel good when they flirt back. We both hopefully know it's not serious. Further, by being outgoing and flirtatious, the customers are nicer to us and in tipping situations, it means larger tips.
   
2. Never ask someone out in their place of employment as harmonicon said upthread. It's awkward, it's impolite and it's something you should never do. When I was at Starbucks, I had a regular customer ask me out. She was a nice girl, if I had some sort of interaction or social-contact outside of the coffeehouse, I might have said "yes". Asking at work, I felt put-upon, on-the-spot and uncomfortable; when she started going out of her way to run into me other places and became even more flirty, it was a problem; when she asked 3 more times, it became time for her to find a new place to get coffee.
   
3. You can't make a relationship on "hot and "nice" alone. Trust me, I know: I dated NYC runway and underwear models.

[DutchLiberal]

30. Why is it impolite how ask somebody out where they work?

Just asking.

I'm honestly confused over why such a thing would be impolite.

[Chan790]

32. Okay, I'll explain it.

It's, among other things, because the situational relationship is inherently one of an inequality of power; there is an implication of coercion to it to ask out someone you have a transactional business relationship in the workplace (it suggests quid pro quo and commodification.), especially if the current relationship is not one the other person has any choice in the initiation of. When you come into my Starbucks, Starbucks says I have to be friendly, outgoing and attempt to meet your wants whether I want to or not; when you ask me out at work, you're abusing that. Even the nicest ask implies consequences if you don't like the answer.

Further, it's inappropriate to publicly ask someone out in front of their peers and work-mates, especially if you're someone they are going to have to continue to interact with and see. It creates an uncomfortable work-environment.

In total, it is not at-all unlike employer sexual harassment in terms of why it is frowned upon.

I'd say the most you can really do is leave the hanging (implied) ask:
"I'm doing X tomorrow with some friends." (Note the full-stop. Period)
If the person says "Oh I love X!" (or something similar) then it is appropriate to invite them. Note that this is not a date, it's a social-calling. It's much lower-key and less-pressure.
Depending how it goes, it's appropriate to ask them out (or create the opportunity for them) during or after, outside of work. (To anybody who has worked retail for a while, this is going to be obvious as to situation. They're typically not going to agree to hang out with you unless you have a shot at the date...or they really like X and want friends to do X with.)

[DutchLiberal]

37. You lost me in the first line when you stepped out of reality.

Specifically, when you said "an implication of coercion". When reading that, I thought: okay, so here is where reality ends and a self-invented parallel universe of made-up mumbo-jumbo begins.

Equating asking someone out with employer sexual harassment is a clear sign that you don't know what you're talking about. If you really believe that, you don't know what sexual harassment is. Or you are of one of those persons who think even LOOKING at a woman is sexual harassment or that merely mentioning that she's hot is "objectifying and devaluing". Are you one of those persons? Because only such a person would dream up that asking someone out in the workplace is "coercion". Again, this indicates that you don't know what coercion is.

With your theories you're actually belittling those who have gone through REAL coercion and REAL harassment.

"It suggests commodification"? Seriously, who talks like that? You really think if I ask out a waitress, she's thinking: "oh my God, he's trying to commodify me?" Hell no, she's either flattered or annoyed. If she;s annoyed, she'll turn me down. And do you really think that when I'm asking out a waitress, I'm thinking: "how could I commodify her?" Again: hell no! All I'm thinking is: hey, she's nice, maybe she wants to grab a cup of coffee. See, your way of thinking, your philosophizing is so disconnected from the way people actually interact in everyday life. I see that from time to time on DU, also with the poster above in this thread: so stuck in abstract thoughts that you totally lose sight of the fact that these theories, which I find ridiculously radical, only work on paper but not so much in real life.

Basically, I think using the word "abuse" for something as benign and harmless as someone asking you out is fake drama and fake outrage.

[harmonicon]

49. Don't be so defensive. I agree with Chan.

When you're at a service job, you're getting paid to be nice to customers. That's the coercion. If you put someone in a situation where they may not be nice to you, you've put them in a bind. It's slight, but it's still a form of coercion.

[DutchLiberal]

51. No, coercion is holding a gun to her head and saying: "you wanna go out with me?"

I'm being hyperbolic, of course, but you get my point.

I'm not being defensive; I'm just tired of a very tiny minority of women on DU trying to impose their textbook philosophies upon us, the rest, who live and act in the real world, outside of the textbook theories, and trying to make us feel bad over common everyday things.

If I go up to a waitress and ask her out, she is in no way obligated to say yes. In no way. Not even in the slightest. The only way you would think she is, is if you're believing the theoretical mumbo-jumbo the other member wrote above. If I ask out a waitress and she turns me down, what am I gonna do? Make her go out with me? Abduct her and take her to a restaurant and a movie? Threaten to kill her mom if she doesn't go to grab a cup of coffee with me? THAT would be coercion. Simply accepting the 'no' and get the fuck over it is what I would do. Please, tell me, HOW is accepting 'no' and getting over it coercion? Really, I'm curious, 'cause I didn't see it.

Not going to the place she works anymore but get my coffee elsewhere, after she turned me down, would be another option. Again, how is that coercion? It would be MY (hypothetical, I must stress) choice to do that, so how is the burden on HER? I'll give you the answer: the burden isn't on her, it never was on her and it never will be on her. Some women just WANT to think the burden is on her. Some women WANT her to be a victim of a man. That's their narrative: even if a man does something completely ordinary, like asking a woman out, he's STILL coercing her! Baaaaaaaad!

I'm simply tired of having to defend everyday common things on this site all the time, that's all.

[harmonicon]

53. You're definitely missing the point by leaps and bounds.

I think almost anyone asked out when they're at work is going to say "no." It's coercion, because you're removing them from their role in their job. The job is to be friendly, and now you've forced them to not be friendly. You seem to be thinking that giving someone advice about not doing this is somehow a personal attack on you for asking out a waitress (where you came up with that is irrelevant). It isn't, and I don't care what you do. I know that when I worked in retail, neither I nor my coworkers would want to be asked out by customers.

[DutchLiberal]

57. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.

To say a guy is "forcing" a girl to be unfriendly, is fake drama. To say it's "coercion", because it's supposedly "removing from their role in their job" is the biggest fake drama I've ever seen on DU. And I have seen drama over calling girls "girls", just to put that into perspective.

Just to be clear: the waitress-example was just that: an example. I have no dog in this fight. I didn't ask out a waitress. It was just a hypothetical to make my point. My point being that I don't get why some people feel this NEEEEEEED, this UUUUUUUUURGE to feel victimized; to feel abused or coerced or forced, when NONE of that actually applies.

I'M the one missing the point by leaps and bounds? No, YOU and your friend are making up self-invented points and then blame others for following real-life logic instead of philosophical, textbook theories.

[Chan790]

60. A point-by-point refutation of you.

1. You may not like this fact, but asking someone out in a situation where they are inherently not your equal and may not be free to say "no" is coercive. Just because you're not the sort to call corporate because someone rejects your advances and lodge a complaint or get them fired does not mean those assholes don't exist.
   
   
2. If you're the customer, you're in a position of authority over the $8/hr. wage-slave who is making your coffee. You do understand that they're not free to reject your flirtations and advances? That their job requires them to be nice to you? That there are consequences to their employment for rejecting your advances? That we get hit on constantly and most of those advances are not welcomed but we're required to take it with a smile? Let's see: Unwanted advances from a person in authority? Creation of an uncomfortable work-environment? Consequences for rejection of advances? Yup! That's sexual harassment if you don't take the hint when she laughs, doesn't answer or declines...or if you retaliate. I'll tell you that my female coworkers dreaded this interaction, most guys don't take the rejection well either continuing to make passes at them or retaliating by calling the manager or corporate to lodge bogus complaints.
   
   
3. Since you brought it up...yes, I've been sexually harassed by a supervisor before. Not at Starbucks; I had an executive director who was a fan of cat-calling and grab-ass. I've been coerced before too and taken advantage of in a state where I wasn't capable of consent. Also, I'm neither "those persons who think even LOOKING at a woman is sexual harassment or that merely mentioning that she's hot is "objectifying and devaluing""
   
   
4. Who talks like that? Apparently people with degrees in Political Theory that write both for academia and mainstream publications on sex and gender-politics using the terminology of the subject. So...me? In any case, I write like that because I talk like that in my nasally prep-school New England accent...I've been told it's adorable.
   
   
5. Really my entire problem with you is that you don't seem to understand that the waitress isn't really your equal when she's at-work because her employ is based in your satisfaction. That makes it coercive. Just a little bit. What happens after they say "no" might make it something more.

[DutchLiberal]

68. A refutation of your refutation.

You may not like this fact, but asking someone out in a situation where they are inherently not your equal and may not be free to say "no" is coercive.

No.

If you're the customer, you're in a position of authority over the $8/hr. wage-slave who is making your coffee. You do understand that they're not free to reject your flirtations and advances?

They are. They are free to do as they please.

That there are consequences to their employment for rejecting your advances?

There aren't.

Unwanted advances from a person in authority? Creation of an uncomfortable work-environment? Consequences for rejection of advances? Yup! That's sexual harassment if you don't take the hint when she laughs, doesn't answer or declines...or if you retaliate.

I don't have any authority over a waitress. Her boss does; not me. And asking someone out is not sexual harassment.

I had an executive director who was a fan of cat-calling and grab-ass.

Now THAT'S sexual harassment.

Who talks like that? Apparently people with degrees in Political Theory that write both for academia and mainstream publications on sex and gender-politics using the terminology of the subject.

Yep, that's what I said: so wrapped up in your textbook theories that you're totally disconnected from how things go in reality.

Really my entire problem with you is that you don't seem to understand that the waitress isn't really your equal when she's at-work because her employ is based in your satisfaction. That makes it coercive. Just a little bit.

Again: no.

It's not that I don't "understand". I understand what you say perfectly. I just don't agree with it. I think it's victimization at its worst. Even when there isn't a problem, when there isn't coercion, you twist and turn everything upside down long enough to MAKE it look like a problem and to MAKE it look like coercion.

Maybe I'm a bit defensive because this fits in a pattern I've seen since DU3 started: how things that were always considered normal are now being twisted into something problematic. A man taking the initiative during sex if the woman is inexperienced is now "condoning sexual assault". Complimenting a woman on her beauty is now "objectifying and devaluing women". Calling a young woman of your own age a girl is now "degrading and belittling". And now, even asking a woman out has become "an act of coercion". Where does it end? Is there ANYTHING a man can still do without being labeled a shallow, creepy, evil creature?

[Chan790]

75. We're going to have to agree to disagree then.

By the way, saying "No, you're wrong" without explaining or showing why I'm wrong is not a refutation.

[DutchLiberal]

76. Some things don't need any explanation.

Things that fall under the category "common knowledge".

[Chan790]

80. Where I'm from...

it is common knowledge that it's inappropriate to ask people out at their place of employment. I've even gone so far as to patiently and repeatedly explain to you why it's inappropriate...the best defense you've been able to provide to why I'm wrong is:

"Wahhhhhhhhhhhhh! But I wannnt to."

I have no more patience left to explain to you that it's simply out-of-bounds inappropriate, unacceptable conduct while you continue to whine like a toddler being denied a lollypop. I've fully and entirely destroyed your weak-ass indefensible appeal for the appropriateness of boorish conduct. Refusing to admit you're wrong in the face of proof you clearly cannot surmount doesn't make you right, it just makes you someone who has proved they are not mature enough for an adult discussion.

[DutchLiberal]

82. No, I've explained at great lenghts how your textbook theories don't apply in the real world.

That you still want to show off you know all these complicated theories is nice and all, and you're certainly entitled to do that, but don't expect me to buy into a lot of mumbo-jumbo. What, you thought I would read some absurd theories and say: "hmmm, that sounds SO far-fetched, SO out of touch with normal everyday behavior and SO incredibly over-the-top, it MUST be true"? Sorry, I'm not that easily impressed.

It's only "out of bounds inappropriate and unacceptable" to people who love to dramatize everything and want to victimize each and every woman out there who ever gets attention from a man. Look, I understand YOU have problems with being asked out and I'm sorry your boss was an ass who harassed you, but that doesn't give you any right to lay an exclusive claim on what is or isn't moral.

Oh, you destroyed my 'defense'? Oh, it's good you tell me, because I hadn't noticed at all... All I see is an immature response from an insecure person who wants to dictate to others how they should or shouldn't behave and begins to slam and personally attack everyone who don't agree with her. Look, you confusing your precious and all-important opinion with "proof" is not the same as 'destroying my defense'. I hate to break it to you, but "proof" is something we can check; not an emotional rambling like you just gave.

I simply refuse to go along with your trivialization of the concepts of abuse and coercion. Frankly, I find it to be demeaning and belittling to all women who have gone through ACTUAL abuse and coercion.

[Chan790]

83. ...

I didn't notice you showing me how the real-world says I'm wrong through all those real-world explanations of why you're full of it. All you said was "No, you're wrong" repeatedly as I repeatedly showed you why I was right and explained to you why you were wrong based not in theories but in facts and the real-world; experiences and insights gained working in food-service, having conversations with waitresses and baristas about how they wish sleazy men would take the hint that they don't want to be asked out while they're trying to work. Is that clear enough for you, they want you to know it's not appropriate to ask them out at work...that's not out of some theory in a book, it out of the mouths of the waitstaff I worked with for 8 years in food-service, preceded by 2 years in public relations in the non-profit sector and followed by 3 years in a public-facing role in banking. 15 years of working with the public, 15 years of female coworkers skeeved-out by guys that don't know it's not appropriate to ask them out at work.

Hint: Waitresses and other service workers get fired daily for refusing the advances of customers. They get fired because they get blamed when their pursuer makes a scene or because he comes back and harbors complaints against them repeatedly until they get fired or he calls corporate and lies his face off or shitcans them on those moronic customer-service surveys on the back of the receipt because we automatically get fired if the customer satisfaction score falls below 70%--it's easily possible for one daily customer to get someone fired: come in, get their coffee, call the survey number giving them all zeros...it only take about 3 0-scores in a month to insure that someone loses their job. It happens all the time.

Service sector employees often lose their jobs because someone asked them out and had a pissy reaction when they said "no"; they lose them in all the ways listed above. QED. Checkmate. Your entire defense just died with it.

So...You're wrong. You're provably wrong and you've been proven wrong. You should abandon this wrong-headed position of yours and quit with the fake "defender of women" act.

Oh noes! Oh noes! What will all the waitresses and service-sector employee women do without DutchLiberal defending their right to be hit on by skeevy men, stalked and harassed until they're forced to quit their jobs or get fired?

Perhaps you're not the ass that can't take "no" for an answer, but those guys...have made it inappropriate for the rest of you. You don't have to like it but at-least know that it's true.

[Chan790]

88. What part of this do you not get?

Women, not a few women but the majority of the women I worked with in the past 15 years and that's a lot of women, think it's inappropriate for a customer to ask them out and quite frankly wish they would not.

Women (and men, lets not make this a sexist thing because it's not) working in public-facing positions get fired all the time as the result of customers unwanted advances and as the result of the rejection of those advances.

That asking out of the hypothetical waitress is often not-harmless. It's not. You saying it is, is never going to make it so. It's been shown to you that it's not and you're being willfully obtuse because the truth of the matter would require you to modify your behavior.

None of this is derived from textbooks, it's derived from real-life experiences earned working in the service sector that directly rebut your "no it's not because I say it's not" absurdity of a defense.

Edit: Don't you hate it when you write a well-crafted response in an argument only to discover that the person you're responding to got shown the door while you were writing it? Me too. Oh well.

[flvegan]

85. Chan790 my friend, I admire you.

You still have the patience to try to set complete idiots right.

This comment has nothing to do with this thread of course, just a general observation I've seen about you elsewhere and I happened to catch up to you here.

Cheers!

[hay rick]

52. "I dated...underwear models."

This should be its own thread...

[Chan790]

61. What can I say? I'm epically awesome. n/t

[redqueen]

71. If anyone starts that thread,

would someone please PM me? I tried it once. It was... different.

[hay rick]

74. Is dating an underwear model a good thing?

Depends...

[OriginalGeek]

77. lol!

[dogknob]

39. I have been considering the same thing...

...but I don't have any illusions of everlasting blah blah blah...

I suspect that a relationship with a 21-year age gap will (if it actually happens) allow the participants to learn from each other while having a whole lotta fun, but there will be a time when it is clear that both people should move on.

If both people CLEARLY understand that at the outset, then the likelihood of someone getting hurt is a lot less.

I have been fortunate in my life to have had two relationships (not with the big age difference) that have evolved into close friendships. Wonderful. Best friends ever.

[whistler162]

42. Yeah but when I do I usually get my face slapped....

hey just because they look alot older than they actually are is no reason to get violent!

[JVS]

45. You should go for it, unless law forbids.

[siligut]

46. Personal experiences

When I was young, older men used to approach me and attempt to "date" me. One pulled out pictures of his plane and home, another older gent kept a picture in his wallet of his former girlfriend and the car he had bought for her.

A very likable, fatherly man that I knew from a place I volunteered at, surprised me when he asked me out, I was disappointed in him, but saved him the embarrassment by explaining I was already involved.

Recently, a man 20 yrs my senior attempted to get to know me by telling me about the lottery money he won. I was polite, but made it clear that I am happily married.

You risk making a fool of yourself and since this is a market where you shop, you might be smart to be very careful, subtle and try to learn a good deal more about her before you even consider exposing yourself to possible embarrassment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. When I was in my teens and twenties, both I and my friends had older men approach us

It invariably creeped me out, because they were never anyone I'd want to associate with in a platonic way. (I don't do one-night stands. If I don't LIKE the person as well as having the hots for them, it's just a crush and will pass.)

Do NOT be deceived by her being friendly to you. I used to have a roommate from an Asian country (no, NOT Japan in this case) who was both exceptionally good looking and lively and outgoing with everyone (now you KNOW she wasn't from Japan ). It was the double whammy--she inspired men's geisha/dragon lady fantasies, and the clueless among them assumed that her friendliness (which she directed at everyone) meant that she had the hots for them. Men she didn't know would see her, follow her to our address, then search the student directory for her name, and call.

The reason I knew this was that she had a nickname that bore no resemblance to her real name. Nobody who knew her--whether American or from her home country--ever called her by her legal name. So if some guy called and asked to speak to (Nickname), he was OK. If some guy called and asked for (Wildly Mispronounced Version of her Legal Name), then I knew to say that she wasn't home and was out with her fiance.

One acquaintance of mine suddenly asked her while a group of us were having lunch in a restaurant. She was surprised, as was I, because she'd been her usually bubbly self to everyone and had not in any way focused on him. She told him that she was engaged to a man in another city (which was the truth).

When I met this acquaintance the next day, he asked why my roommate had turned him down and humiliated him after flirting with him. I asked him why he hadn't noticed that she was being bubbly and lively with everyone, including the women in the group. He hadn't noticed.

That's where a lot of guys get in trouble with relationships. They don't notice. They don't notice how people are reacting to a situation. They don't notice the women who DO like them.

[baldguy]

56. I once dated a woman for about 6 months.

Everything was going great - until she found out she was 1 year & 1 month older than me. I didn't give a damn, she freaked out.

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. If you can't get beyond the word "hot" as a descriptor I would advise you to move on.

What's her brain look like?

[cbdo2007]

66. If you can actually get her to go on a date with you - GO FOR IT!!!

Really, what is the harm?? So you'll go out and have fun with somebody. As long as she isn't underage. Not every relationship has to be a set-up for marriage, but if it leads to that then great.

If you're like me and you're just an average looking dude, now in my mid 30's, there aren't going to be a lot more opportunites for you to date some super-hot-model early 20's woman, so take advantage while you still can. Just treat her right and respect her and if she says no don't get all creepy and stalker with her.

Let us know how it goes and pm me a pic

[4th law of robotics]

69. Is she legal?

That's a pretty good way to sort out ok/not ok.

[redqueen]

72. My man is 14 years younger than I am.

And we are so in love. So flip off all you ageists.

No but seriously, flip off.

Hah, no... but really seriously this time, if the two of you have more in common than just you thinking she's super hot and also nice, then it might work. I agree with those saying its out of order for you to ask her out at work. Do your flirting and if she doesn't make a move, move on.

[FedUpWithIt All]

79. My husband is 13 years younger.

We're also very happy and we're extremely compatible.

I think that age can be an real issue for some couples but for others it is a complete non-issue.

I agree that a couple, especially with a broad age distance, needs to have a pretty solid common foundation for anything remotely lasting but i suspect OP isn't pressed about the long term.

[Iggo]

73. You answered your own question.

"...she is WAY to young for me..."

There ya go!

[Neoma]

78. Married a man 20 years older than me.

It's all in perspective I guess. We're both happy.

[felix_numinous]

81. Meanwhile Giantfootball has punted himself elsewhere

while the whole lounge debates his life choices--where is he????

[seabeyond]

87. his post sounded awfully familiar that was in lounge a couple months ago. hot, really hot girls

where??? at the grocery store, of course. such hot girls... then went on to tell us about his rise and it hung around all afternoon keeping him warm or some shit.

sounding really familiar.

he was tos'ed

i think this is another of his....

[Fearless]

86. I've found people physically attractive...

But because of age they were too immature/in a different place mentally/emotionally than me. It never works out in the end, yet the sex is almost always amazing for a few weeks/months.

[Rochester]

89. I've never let that discourage me...

...for what it's worth, most of the time I go in the other direction. Guess I'm cougar bait