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This message was self-deleted by its author (AProgressiveThinker) on Sun Feb 3, 2013, 04:42 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
AProgressiveThinker Jan 2013 OP
Isoldeblue Jan 2013 #1
bettyellen Jan 2013 #2
zeemike Jan 2013 #5
bettyellen Jan 2013 #7
zeemike Jan 2013 #9
bettyellen Jan 2013 #10
zeemike Jan 2013 #14
bettyellen Jan 2013 #17
zeemike Jan 2013 #18
bettyellen Jan 2013 #25
zeemike Jan 2013 #30
bettyellen Jan 2013 #32
zeemike Jan 2013 #33
bettyellen Jan 2013 #34
zeemike Jan 2013 #35
bettyellen Jan 2013 #36
zeemike Jan 2013 #37
bettyellen Jan 2013 #38
zeemike Jan 2013 #39
bettyellen Jan 2013 #40
zeemike Jan 2013 #41
bettyellen Jan 2013 #43
zeemike Jan 2013 #46
bettyellen Jan 2013 #49
zeemike Jan 2013 #51
bettyellen Jan 2013 #53
zeemike Jan 2013 #57
bettyellen Jan 2013 #58
zeemike Jan 2013 #59
bettyellen Jan 2013 #60
zeemike Jan 2013 #61
AProgressiveThinker Jan 2013 #22
seabeyond Jan 2013 #65
AProgressiveThinker Feb 2013 #66
whathehell Jan 2013 #13
AProgressiveThinker Jan 2013 #21
bettyellen Jan 2013 #28
zeemike Jan 2013 #3
20score Jan 2013 #4
bettyellen Jan 2013 #6
iamthebandfanman Jan 2013 #11
bettyellen Jan 2013 #12
AProgressiveThinker Jan 2013 #23
bettyellen Jan 2013 #26
delrem Jan 2013 #8
fasttense Jan 2013 #15
bettyellen Jan 2013 #29
Shankapotomus Jan 2013 #16
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #19
bettyellen Jan 2013 #27
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #42
bettyellen Jan 2013 #44
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #45
bettyellen Jan 2013 #47
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #48
bettyellen Jan 2013 #50
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #52
bettyellen Jan 2013 #54
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #56
bettyellen Jan 2013 #62
gtar100 Jan 2013 #20
Iggo Jan 2013 #24
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #31
Kalidurga Jan 2013 #55
seabeyond Jan 2013 #63
bettyellen Jan 2013 #64

Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:41 PM

1. Just because...

everything is relative, doesn't mean we stop fighting for women's rights and respect for our choices here in this country. If the rethugs were to have their way, women would be relegated to be only property, just like in other countries and not so long ago, here.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:59 PM

2. a 12 year old who's bitter about "hot girls" being able to date whoever they like, LOL. Utter CRAP.

seriously loved the part where he imitated a feminist harpie attacking him.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:12 PM

5. I see him as a young man

don't matter how many years....if he wants to take up man subjects then he is a young man in my book...I enjoy seeing young people engaging in debate...we just might learn something from them.

I would encourage him to do more of it.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:43 PM

7. and I see him as a sad example of how early male entitlement starts....

I agree that it's great he's interested in politics and identifies as a "liberal".

BUT, a very big but it's apparent he knows very little about the current battles against women's rights to reproductive freedom or equal pay. He definitely needs help with historical aspects too, yet is balls out lecturing feminists that they need to stop. Where in the world did he get they idea that he had smart things to say to advocates - off the top of his head? That takes some nerve, and makes him look pretty foolish when he spews 50's era stereotypes and claims them as evidence. He looks a little old for such shallow thoughts.

But the tangents on dating and marriage are pretty funny, I do believe this is where a bit of his resentment against feminists come from. I hope he grows up an actual liberal, and a girl gives him a diamond ring and sets him off to cooking and cleaning.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:08 PM

9. Well it does take nerve to speak up when it is intimidating

But I see that as a good thing and far from being foolish.
But I can make a good guess where the resentment comes from...and it is not because women have equal rights...it is because they get nit picky and petty to try to make some point or the other that don't mean shit and don't get you any rights.

For instance an example...form some years past...I was approaching a door entrance to a business and me and a woman arrived at about the same time...I opened the door and stood back so she could go in and she said to me..."What, you don't think I can't open a door for myself?"
I am sure she thought I was displaying my misogynistic domination by opening the door and letting her pass first.

Yep that kind of crap turns people off...always having to tip toe around them to avoid being accused of some sin against women.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:36 PM

10. wow, you think one woman "turning you off" is significant enough to change how views on human rights

issues are looked at? And from this you somehow deduce women are the petty ones. Oh dude.

And yeah, but telling rights advocates "your doing it wrong" when it's obvious you don't know or care about what's significant displays a fuck load of entitlement. What gives this kid a seat at the table? He apparently skimmed an article or two at best, and assumes he's a player now. With important things to tell us.

But it's important to defend that, and yet call him out on circumcision, right? Because that's what's important in a vanity posting trying to sway feminists to give it up, and work for men too.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:08 AM

14. No THIS is what turns me off about feminism

As well as any "ism: that comes down the pike.
And that it the rhetoric intended to intimidate people....If I complain bout it it means that I am a misogynist pig if I don't ignore the hyperbole and the sometimes ridiculous things that are said.
Any complaints about it is met with just the kind of post you posted....you are ether with us or against us, and we have seen the results of that.

I fully support women, black people and minority rights....not the hyperbole that goes with it...you show me a woman denied her rights and I will stand strongly with them until they get it...but I will not support badgering people about what they say and how they say it.
But what gives this kid a seat at the table is that he is just as valuable as you or me...there are no special class of people that get to sit at the table....and he was not "trying to sway Feminists to give it up"....unless you mean to give up the hyperbole and contentious.
And by the way, those are a very small group of people that do that...most women I have met don't do that...and they are not shrinking violets that just live to serve men...they are mostly intelligent and caring people that don't like the contentiousness of it any more than I do...but they rarely sit at your table cause they are not welcome.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:07 PM

17. asking feminists to "sweeten up" their message to appeal to you is pathetic. making human rights

issues palatable to you should not be their main concern. Why would you think assuaging your ego should be central to women's concerns? Seriously?

And when activists are having discussions about their purpose and aims, any idiot who spews sexist regressive shit off the top of their heads is NOT going to be listened to. This goes for any group- not just feminists. You actually have to do some work, have some knowledge of the topic at hand if you don't want to be laughed out of the room. The swill this kid was pitching was right out of Fox news, if he was any older, he'd not be treated so kindly. Just a reality check for you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:57 PM

18. Well more evidence of just what I am talking about,

I state my complaint, and you in your wisdom already know why I am complaining...That I am telling you to :sweeten up" to appeal tom my pathetic misogynistic ego.
And that feminist are an exclusive group and they don't have to listen to any thing they don't like and the can declare me a stupid idiot and a sexist repressive male pig if we do speak up...
Well I have done some work...I have lived many years and I have had many relationships with people both men and women and out of all of them less than one percent has shared your view of things...and think they can just claim eminent domain to Feminism because they are the ones most angry about it.

Why does this not work for me?...because it smacks of repressive authoritarianism....and continues to try to divide us into waring camps.
Every time we let the radicals run things it turns to shit.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 07:33 AM

25. ha ha radicals. actually we claim feminism not because we are "most angry" about it, but because

these are our issues, and not yours. You don't want "eminent domain" to feminism at all. What a pantload. You just want to sit on the sidelines and tell us how to do it- same as the OP. Think about that for a minute.
And if you're white, maybe you'll mosey on over to the NAACP and give them some advice next, eh? Because that would be just as foolish.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:05 AM

30. Well the NAACP don't need any advice

Because MLK knew what to do and did it...he focused his effort to the rights issue not the interpersonal ones with white people...he never once suggested that people stop using the word nigger...cause if he had he would have taken his eyes off the prise and that would have made the fight for the rights of black people to equal treatment more difficult.
the civil rights movement had it's radicals who wanted to do things like that, But King had studied Gandhi and knew it was a losing strategy...and by the way I am white, and I lived through those years and was in the middle of some of it.
I remember Lester Maddox passing out ax handles he called "nigger knockers" at his chicken restaurant and the civil rights movement just ignored it...no butthurt from MLK...no attempt to silence him and his racism...just keeping his eyes on the prize of black people having access to any public place...and it worked just as it did with Gandhi.

And these are not just your issues...it effects everyone...just as it did with civil rights....but go ahead and separate yourself from everyone else and continue the hyperbolic rhetoric...it will gain you little except some emotional satisfaction.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:16 AM

32. exactly "focused his effort to the rights issue not the interpersonal ones" - and you and the OP

were the ones who introduced the interpersonal issues. Laying the "failures" of feminism at the feet of a few people who were't nice enough to you, as if THAT is what feminism is all about. Seriously? That's your focus?
How can you expect activists to take you seriously when you just want us to watch you licking your wounds from random personal interactions? Come on now, that's ridiculous.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:45 AM

33. I would seriously like to explain it to you

Just look at what you said.
You are saying that I introduced it cause I brought it up...well that may be true but bringing it up is the whole point of it.
And then you accuse..
".a few people who were't nice enough to you"
This says that I am offended by someone so now I have a personal hatred of women...why the hell do you think that is how pwople are...are you that jaded about life and people?...and if that is how people seem to you then you need to look at yourself or look at the people you are around, cause I don't see the world that way...I don't hold grudges and I try to forgive as soon as I can, cause I know it will fuck up your life if you don't.

I am not hear to get activist to take me seriously....Frankly my dear I don''t give a fuck...(there I gave you a butthurt, I called you dear which is a well known misogynistic statement...plus I used the dirty word fuck instead of the iconic damn)
I am hear to do the dirty work of pointing out things you don't want to hear...but never the less need to.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #33)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:11 AM

34. never said you had a personal hatred of women. sorry- you are imagining things....

probably like that slight opening the door- in your mind only- this is something huge and significant enough to mention years later. Huge enough to be more important to discuss than the very real and important work feminists do.

I really truly have no interest in this grudge of yours, and feel only pity that it causes you to lash out at women who don't think your bruised feelings are paramount when discussing feminism.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #34)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:48 AM

35. No you did not say it.

Then in your reply you say it again in two short paragraphs
"in this grudge of yours, and feel only pity that it causes you to lash out at women"
I feel that no matter what I say you will say it is all my fault because I hate women...and that is you lashing out not me.

But we have eaten this apple to the core...and I will expect nothing from you now but more of the same...and you me.
So let it be.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:07 AM

36. you leap frog a personal incident to blame feminism, it's silly.

and claim you don't hold a grudge, when you're still talking about it years later. that's the very definition of a grudge. same as the kid and the "hot girls" issue he brought up- if you're not bitter and trying to put this on "all women", then what exactly was your point?
Why do you bring up these petty issues as if they are truly significant? Why do you imagine women call you a misogynist when they did not? Where does this come from? Why do you think all women should care if one was less than pleasant. Would you contact the NAACP to tell them an African American was rude to you? Tell them you don't support them until all African Americans are nice enough all the time? Can you see how silly that is, to feel entitled to have strangers being nice to you? (or in the kid's case, force hot girls to date you?)
The both of injected these personal anecdotes into the conversation yet have failed to show at all what the have to do with the feminist movement. And that would be, because they don't. Not at all. But feminists are told routinely by men, that mens feeling should be a paramount concern to them. And you get angry when we say no. You two are hardly unique in thinking this respect.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:22 AM

37. To talk about something is not holding a grudge.

Where do you get this crap from?
And for your information I would support YOU if you were denied any right I have...but what I won't do is give in to your intimidation by piling on of one accusation after the other about my motives and even how I think and what I say.
And I remember that incident long ago because it was stupid...and people tend to remember stupid shit.

But go on, repeat the charges against me over and over again if it makes you feel powerful or something...I do not have a thin skin.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 11:31 AM

38. well why bring up "stupid shit" to activists? what was your point exactly?

I'm attempting to understand why you thought it was important enough to post about. Is stupid shit more important to discuss than the work women do to achieve equality? Is it both "stupid shit" and relevant?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #38)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:21 PM

39. Well just what work are you talking about?

Do you consider it your work to find a misogynist behind every bush and to root all references to it from the English language?
Well that is the kind of work I am talking about...trying to convince you that such things are counter productive.
But I know from past experiences that you will never see my point ever, and you can write it all of to my being one of them that is out to subjugate women with my words.

But yes the stupid shit is important...especially when the stupid shit is promoted as feminism....and is true for any ism.
It is like promoting Louis Farrakhan as the champion of civil rights.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #39)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:30 PM

40. I'm saying your feelings about one personal incident are not significant when discussing the scope

of what feminists do. it sounds like you think we're wasting time on who opens doors for us? seriously now, you believe this? we go to meetings, write our representatives and march in DC in support of people quibbling over opening doors? You think?
it looks past- and trivializes- our important issues and makes your bruised feelings the focus. if it was truly written off as "stupid" you'd find no reason to bring it up.
for you to be huffing and puffing over (totally imagined, unfounded) fears over being called a misogynist is sad, but it has nothing to do with the feminist movement. i'm sorry to disabuse you of the notion, but we have better things to worry about than someone who annoyed you once. Get over it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:46 PM

41. Well not everyone is annoyed and angry about stupid things.

But you seem not to understand that...and go right back with the accusations of my bruised feelings causing me to huff and puff about things...and my objecting to being labeled a misogynist for disagreeing with you.
As I said there is no end to it...you have an excuse for every thing you say...and a reason to accuse me for anything I say unless it is hooray for you.
Let's end this now....progress cannot be made.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #41)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:59 PM

43. it's annoying that you guys think it's the ONLY part of feminism worth discussing. that you focus

on doors opened and he focused on girls not dating whoever wants to date them. Silly things you two are latching on to.

I'm sorry if you misread what I said about the misogyny displayed in the video posted and thought I was talking about you personally. I see now that must be where it's coming from. Perhaps if you look again and realize that comment was not about you it would make more sense. I did not say you were a woman hater.

At any rate, one stupid incident years ago should be treated as the stupid one off you claim it is. It's not a valid reason to put down the majority of feminists. It's trivial. Random shit happens to all of us, so what?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #43)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:25 PM

46. Well it has not been one stupid thing years ago.

I have seen many stupid things in my life...and right up until now.
I saw right here on DO a post that was titled Why I don't tell women to smile and why you shouldn't ether.
And I thought that was stupid and said so, and got the same shit for it as here...only more of it....
Now tell me how complaining about men telling women to smile is advancing equal pay and opportunity for women...in fact I think t does the opposite and makes them look like fragile flowers that are crushed by someone telling them to smile...ridiculous...
But again, this is what happens to any movement that allows the radicals to take it over....it is the meaning to Revolution...

....but when you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
It ain't gona make it with anyone anyhow.

And it is also a tactic of the agent provocateurs...make it as radical as you can, and it will turn off as many as you can and discredit the whole thing....it has happened in every movement in my lifetime and way before,,,(look up The Molly McGuire's)
And with the anti war movement..done by the FBI and repeated again against OWS....MLK however was smart enough to not allow that to happen...and he was successful.
And it works.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #46)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:44 PM

49. Guilty of hating when total strangers (mostly men) issue orders to smile. I only talked back

during the time my Dad was gravely ill, and explained, no smiles today- my Dad is suffering greatly and my heart is breaking, and it's jerky to expect anything from strangers. It's a small symptom of some men's entitled attitude. Women only do this with people they know, mostly children. Men do it to attractive women, and it's patronizing. When it;s happened to you a few hundred times, you can weigh in with some understanding of what it feels like. But that's a side conversation that does not define the work of feminists no matter how much you'd like it to. So, again... trivializing the work women do with personal anecdotes of being "butthurt" as you call it.

But come on now, you don't actually belive that's the issue that compels women to march on DC and campaigns for justice. You know better. You are defining and judging feminism based on your personal grievances, and doing so in a way that is asking us to put men's needs first, always. And it's truly bothersome to many men when we don't. A lot more men tell us how to be, than the one gal who didn't want that door opened for her. Like being asked to smile, the demands to "keep sweet" or "be nice" when interacting with men are constant. You probably have no idea how tiresome it is because you've never experienced it. But no, that's not why we march on DC or anything, LOL. If that's what you think, no wonder you think feminism is a joke.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #49)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:04 PM

51. Fuck this shit....you keep repeating the same charges over and over again

And no pretend that women ARE indeed delicate flowers that can be crushed if a strange man speaks to them....total bullshit and I have known MANY women that would laugh at such a thing as that....the women I know and love if in that situation of being approached by a strange man and asked (or ordered as you perceive it) would have said fuck off buddy if they did not want the attention...and that would have been the end of it...and they wold not hate men because of it, or insist that no man ever do such a thing.

And I don't think feminism is a joke...but there are jokers that say they are feminists of that I am sure..

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Response to zeemike (Reply #51)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:16 PM

53. who is crushed? WTF dude. Calm down.

I'm sorry for you that you want to focus on stupid shit -as you call it- and then let it anger you so.

Just grow the fuck up and realize that when you bring up *stupid shit* like the door opening incident, into a serious conversation some people will tell you to fuck off, buddy. Because it's such stupid shit, and you're full of it when you pretend it has any significance. Unless it's to explain this resentment you harbor toward some feminists. Later for that shit.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #53)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 04:26 PM

57. You only think I am angry

But what that really is is the wind blowing your breath back in your face.
There is nothing you could say that would make me angry...now if you do something that is different.

And the focus IS on stupid shit because you are putting it there not me....I am not saying such things as "I don't tell men to cry, and neither should you"..which would be the Masculineist way to express butt hurt....and I would certainly point how stupid it was if a man were to say it...cause stupid knows no gender.
And I don't "harbor resentment against some feminist" unless you harbor resentment against some men that don't let you get away with crap like this.
But this is just becoming repetitive and you will continue to find new ways of saying I am a misogynist pig...so lets give this up.
Goodbye, and I hope you one day get a handle on this anger thing you have.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #57)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:13 PM

58. you're still licking your wounds from that experience, and embarrassingly enough doing it in public!

i nailed you and the OP to the wall for your "pity me poor dude some woman was rude to me once" bullshit.

hilarious you want someone to believe you recall, and retell tiny slights from years ago - but they didn't bother you at all. Ha ha, no. that, babydoll is the definition of butthurt.

the rest of your post about men crying is a bunch of drivel, women don't go around and tells strange men what to do- it doesn't happen. so you have no grasp what the issue is or how stupid your analogy sounds. Totally clueless. No wonder you were ripped to shreds on that thread.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #58)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:29 PM

59. I said goodbye didn't I

And then why are you repeating what you have already said now several times?...is it that you think you have won if you get the last insult?
And that is also a common thing...to claim victory because you try to brow beat people into submission with wild accusations and over the top rhetoric....well got news for you sunshine, I don't intimidate, and I hate bullies...so if you want to be a bully then count me as a hater.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #59)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 05:37 PM

60. you enjoy being a hater over "stupid shit" just have at it.

it's your loss to be obsessing over perceived slights from years ago. on the other hand, it's kinda funny to watch you nurse the wound.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #60)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 06:31 PM

61. Well bulling and intimidation is not stupid shit in my book

And I take it very seriously.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 06:48 PM

22. Agreed

I agree, and especially when women sometimes think they are being harassed when a guy asks if they want to get a cup of coffee or some stupid shit like that. TheAmazingAtheist did some video about this hardcore feminist who was asked by a guy on the elevator if they wanted to get a cup of coffee and then she like called the cops or some really stupid shit, and he was tagged a misogynist when he probably just wanted a cup of coffee. I advocate women's rights but it's annoying when feminists try to find something not even closely related to misogyny and blame someone for being a misogynist.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Reply #22)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 10:47 PM

65. you are not even informed. you clearly do not even know what you are talking about.

yet you act as if you are all that. you want to know about that event, get info. there is plenty out there. but if THIS is all you have, that is truly sad.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #65)

Sun Feb 3, 2013, 04:41 PM

66. Yet you...

Just post a generalized response while I have explained TIME and TIME again that I am for women's rights.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 03:13 AM

13. +10 n/t

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 06:43 PM

21. I wasn't bitter about it

1. I'm 15 2. I'm not bitter about it, it's common knowledge that is just contradictory to the message of feminism

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Reply #21)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 08:48 AM

28. sorry about the age thing.

I'm not sure what you think contradicts the message of feminism- or more importantly- why it is relevant?
That all women are not currently living as perfect feminists and some outdated social mores still exist? Is that really your expectation? Why would that be realistic? What do you think should be done about it?

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:01 PM

3. Well to inform you.

Yes women are circumcised in some places...but it is worse than getting your fore skin cut off...that only hurts for a little while, but if you cut it on a woman she can have a lifetime of if painful sex.
And in fact that is why they do it to women in some backward places...cause they don't want the women to cheat on them.
Take the foreskin off your cock and it lessens the sensation somewhat....but really, even so it is gonna feel great when it is all up in there....and you may make it last a little longer...and we men can all use some of that.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:05 PM

4. I hope people on this thread are going to be kind.

He's young and needs information, not denigration. If he was thirty, that would be a different story.

Just my two cents.

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Response to 20score (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:17 PM

6. but he needs to be reading up, instead of spewing nonsense and stereotypes.

men historically did all the work in the world, women just cooked and watch babies?
lilly leddbeter might be magically be working better in a few years?
not a word about limiting reproductive freedom?
girls are luckier than guys because they have more choices who to date (unless they're ugly) and guys gotta buy them engagement rings and ask to get married. OY. In the mind of someone his age, this probably looks like a fair trade off. LOL.

seriously regressive and uniformed stuff. i'm guessing feminists have a slightly better grip on the situation than he does, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:18 AM

11. maybe you should try discussing it with him

in a civil way through private messages ....
does it make ya feel better to tear him down with negative words? belittling him wont educate him.

hes just a kid who hasnt explored the things hes talking about fully.. hes a kid still.

jesus, i cant imagine what i was talking about with friends at his age.

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:33 AM

12. the OP here is not the kid in the video, it posts videos from a bunch of HS age kids

and the few that I saw previously, were actually from kids that had some some study of the topic. they were pretty impressive. in some cases, the kids in the video have joined DU and engaged in conversation with the video's viewers. really impressive to see that. this kid can opt in and do the same.

do you think this kid has done any research at all on the movement he is trying to advise? it seems like he was rattling of things off the top of his head, so I'm not encouraged he's interested or capable of more than belittling feminists he understands so little about. He chose to go into put down mode himself, and to trivialize important issues. but of course he's welcome to chime in if he'd like to defend or explain the extreme stereotypes he used to try and make his case. or he can read and learn. that's good too.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 06:51 PM

23. You're spinning my words around

1. Yes, men have historically have had to do more of the physical labor (from feudal societies all the way to the industrial era)
2. I said lily ledbetter may eventually become more efficient, and it is a good federal statute, but I question its efficiency.
3. I NEVER said girls were overall luckier than men for those reasons. I said in those aspects such as dating and marrying, it is easier for them, but I mention about 3 times in the video that I know women have it harder than a man i.e. Facing discrimination, getting a job, getting equal wages to a man in the same job etc.

You took the words out of my mouth.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Reply #23)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 08:27 AM

26. took the words out of my mouth?

1. Yes, men have historically have had to do more of the physical labor (from feudal societies all the way to the industrial era)

Women were also expected to HAVE baby after baby, year after year- not just care for them. That's MORE labor, and no autonomy. Between times, they worked in the fields growing that food, not just cooking it. Later, women worked in urban factories where they made 30-40% of what men made for their factory jobs. The lifestyle you describe was ONLY common in post WW2 America during an economic boom, before that- it was only true of upper middle class families. Not ever the norm. It's even more irrelevant today- when most women are expected to bear children, work outside the house, and have jobs.


2. I said lily ledbetter may eventually become more efficient, and it is a good federal statute, but I question its efficiency.

Lilly Ledbetter has no teeth because they are serious time constraints put on the victim of discrimination, and efforts to repair the law have been shot down. You said something vague about whether it is effective- but why not do some research know of what you speak? - that would be helpful if you want anybody to take you seriously.

3. I NEVER said girls were overall luckier than men for those reasons. I said in those aspects such as dating and marrying, it is easier for them, but I mention about 3 times in the video that I know women have it harder than a man i.e. Facing discrimination, getting a job, getting equal wages to a man in the same job etc.

You went off about "hot" women, and knowingly excluded the majority of women and prattled on as if this was relevant (and not insulting) somehow- so please do go on- why are outdated social mores (that only have to do with a small segment of women) relevant at all when discussing equal rights? Why did you list their "advantages"- what was your point if not to claim this evened the score for (hot) girls? Why leave out the 80% that are not hot in your calculations? I'm not even going to go on about rape, or the very serious lack of reproductive rights many women in America face, both of which make this dating and marriage thing quite a bit more difficult than you've ever dared to contemplate. We've got a lot more serious issues to think about than who buys the engagement ring. And believe it or not, women do ask men on dates and even propose marriage- many skip the ring thing or buy their own. Again, it's not the 1950's anymore.

You took the words out of my mouth.

Huh? I only pulled a few of the nonsensical and pointless (dating) inaccurate (work life) and sterotypical (hot girls have it better than dudes) statements off the top of my head. Unfortunately, there were many more (including MRA swill about men suffering equally from abuse at womens' hands- which appears to be the sum of your "research"). OY.

I didn't want to put more effort into my reply than you did in spewing this rant. I'm not doing the homework for you- although a few generous people here have suggested some resources so you could actually begin tackle this subject from an informed perspective. You list a lot of thing "you know" but have failed to piece them together into anything meaningful at all. You presented a laundry list of "facts"- some of which are blatantly false, others outdated by generations, and completely left out women's struggle for reproductive rights which are currently under serious attack. You obviously failed to give this issue any serious thought and consideration, yet would like to advise people who have.

If you want to continue on exploring the issue, there are some great suggestions and food for thought here in this thread. I'm hoping to see that you are interested enough to follow through and respond thoughtfully on the topic. It would be interesting to see what you have to say after you have research under your belt, and a greater understanding of the topic.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:07 PM

8. I suggest reading Mary Wollstonecraft

Mary Wollstonecraft: A Vindication of the Rights of Woman. 1792
online
http://www.bartleby.com/144/

This is an amazing read; the fully focused product of a classical education, the result of the mature reflection of a brilliant mind. I guarantee that, if you are a thinker (the video is of a young thinker), you will in later years be thankful that you did.

The reason: it is classical principled reasoning, born of the enlightenment and active one-on-one debate with the likes of Thomas Paine and others forging a path toward a freedom never dreamt of before. Also, read Thomas Paine. You might be surprised at how radical his arguments might appear in these degenerate times. While reading Wollstonecraft realize that her arguments, sound as they are, were pushing against the opposition of even the greatest of contemporary thinkers.

If one hasn't read anything like it before, it will be a great introduction to the method of the fully reasoned argument.

The reason I suggest this reading is to take the mind off contemporary trivia like some "ball busting feminists" or whatever (ours is an age of almost total trivia), and to give the strongest background in the subject.

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Response to delrem (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:22 AM

15. Mary Wollstonecraft is my favorite feminist

I did a paper on her in college. She was a most amazing woman, way ahead of her time.

Yes, this young man needs to first understand that women come from a history of oppression. He needs to understand that not too long ago in America women could NOT even open a bank account, get a job, buy property without their husband's signature. He seems to understand that women get paid less but he doesn't understand that women are ridiculed and ignored routinely in the workforce, merely because they are women.

He doesn't understand that when he puts on a falsetto voice to mock women he is taking away our speech. He is mocking us for not being like men. He is making it humiliating merely for us to speak out loud in our higher pitched feminine voices. He is missing all the everyday degradations a woman must put up with. He is blind to the nuances of discrimination and only sees one thing to be of concern. This young man does Not know of what he speaks.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 08:52 AM

29. yes, the mocking voice and focus on "hot girls have it easy" were pretty big mistakes.

unless he's preaching to the choir, that is.
Mary Wollstonecraft is a great suggestion, love her!

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:10 PM

16. With all due respect,

I think you are attributing social inequities and injustices to Feminism. Social inequities and behavioral exaggerations can be perpetrated by members of any group. It's wrong to label those extreme solutions as "Feminism" because some "feminists" suggest them.

There is a legitimate debate over whether men have been evolved to be hyper aggressive and what to do about it. In part, the fault lies not only with men (of the boys club variety) but with some women who value those aggressive, hyper "alpha" males over males with more egalitarian awareness and docility, thus perpetuating the genes of the personality of their own oppressors.

So I think you are mistakenly identifying yourself with that hyper aggressive "alpha" male, oppressor type by simply being a male, and therefore getting offended when some certain feminists rather sloppily suggest poorly thought out solutions for dealing with these aggressive males themselves, including adopting aggressive and violent solutions borrowed from their male oppressors. Follow me?

In other words, in solving the problem, some feminists are going to suggest wild and wrong-headed solutions that will ultimately get shot down by the better feminists. Don't take it personally. Dumb men do it too in their own suggestions for solving issues with women like, for instance, suggesting women put aspirins between their knees as a birth control method. You are going to get crazy on any side.

I think you need to dig a little deeper into feminist philosophy before you start attributing every wild pronouncement made by some of its members to feminism as a whole. Feminists do understand men need to live and exist on earth. (Just not as a segregated group with their own advantages and rules that don't recognized the existence of other members of their species.) However, there is a certain sub-group, personality-type of male that is perpetrating the majority of the injustices against women and indeed against males like yourself and many other enlightened men. So don't take feminist disgust personally. Try to find where it's coming from, apart from its more colorful and exaggerated pronouncements of some of its members.

The complaint that "men should be allowed to be men" is exactly the problem feminism is trying to address. Men should not be "men" first. That suggests there are certain behaviors men should be allowed to act out that are above their responsibility to be human. Men should be human first and foremost. Why? Because women are humans too and when you conform to being human, instead of just male, it allows inclusion and healthy interaction with all members and sub-groups of your species. if all you need to worry about is being "male", proper interaction with others of your species is not learned. When you advance the "men should be allowed to be men" argument, it is just a trigger for feminists to push back against it and rightly so.

The link below is to a video interview between Naomi Wolf and Harvey Mansfield, who tries to advance this "men should be allowed to be men" philosophy, unsuccessfully, if you ask me. Naomi just picks him apart, but note, not overtly aggressively. You might find it informative to the hopelessness of taking such a stance and then fine tune your position on Feminism to something more mutually acceptable and beneficial instead of one of conflict and pushing back.

I hope it helps.


(the interview starts 50 seconds in)
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/191618-1

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 03:11 PM

19. This is the kind of stuff you see from a guy who has guys for friends.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #19)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 08:41 AM

27. I was surprised there were no complaints about "friend zoning"....

If I had to analyse what he was getting at here, is that women already have enough rights and should stop because we don't have it as bad as they do in other countries. Also, we displease him by not encouraging the hottest girls to date any one who feels like dating them, instead of similarly hot people.
Whoa, what analysis.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 12:51 PM

42. He's claiming women alread enjoy a superior position in society...

Except for pay.

They get the say in who the chose to "date" and can slap a man any time they want.

I wonder if this guy has an older sister who pushes him around.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:03 PM

44. oh yeah, the stuff about assault was weird- and totally inaccurate.

i don't think he did any research aside from some brief exposure to some MRA talking points.
it's cute he thinks he's a true renegade for being "liberal" but arguing against feminism. Well, everything seems new when you're young, right?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:17 PM

45. "Women" to him are obviously a theory....

The funny thing is that there are women I know who only have women friends who act the same way when they talk about guys.

All theory and no experience.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #45)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:26 PM

47. and I guess the teen years is when you get obsessed with gender roles and interaction

between the sexes. sad to see so many regressive stereotypes trotted out by the young, especially one who identifies himself a liberal. sad to see he only responded to me, and only with a defensive posture. from the way he has completely ignored lots of interesting feedback and advice you'd get the impression he's actually not interested in understanding feminism or discussing it in an enlightened way.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #47)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:43 PM

48. Nor is he willing to discuss that he may be wrong about the goals....

Feminists aren't into cutting off testicles to make men less aggressive.

They want men to stop using their nuts to excuse acting like nuts.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #48)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 01:49 PM

50. yeah, totally mum on reproductive issues too.

all those weird anecdotes using exceptions to try and prove the rule.

what the heck does he expect "hot girls" to do, date everyone who asks, whether or not she's attracted because that's egalitarian? and what that has to do with feminism is beyond me, except it's an excuse to harbor resentment against women who have any kind of power at all. none of it was logical.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:14 PM

52. He still hasn't clicked that what impresses guys doesn't impress women...

As such, he has a feeling of inadequacy since he's not a jock.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #52)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:18 PM

54. oh god, some guys never figure that out. sad.

guys lead each other astray all the time.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #54)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 03:54 PM

56. Many decide they don't NEED to figure it out....

Usually it's about the time they decide money is their great love.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 11:53 AM

62. and money is seen as the other way (aside from being a handsome jock) to obtain a female

guys like that throw money around to entice women and are *shocked I tell you* that they end up with women who value money more than anything.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 03:40 PM

20. "Feminist" is not a dirty word.

It just gets under the skin of a lot of right-wing assholes and misogynists (probably being redundant there). And for that, I like it even more.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:14 PM

24. Kids.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 09:13 AM

31. This is the kind of stuff we used to talk about in certain literature classes in high school.

It's bizarre that males this age still carry the same baggage as males did 40 years ago.

He needs enlightenment. Some of the issues he dismisses are real, and some of his perceived inequalities (with males being disadvantaged) are simply a reflection of his lack of experience.

Oh, well.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:59 PM

55. When the percent of women who are raped in this country drops down to the percent of men...

we can talk. Until then all this talk of women's rights doesn't amount to much. What does it mean to have rights if you still have to fear going out at night? Worry that what you are wearing sends the wrong message and opens you up to harassment? And no matter what decision you make it's the wrong one? I.E. Stay home with kids or not? Doesn't matter which you choose it's the wrong one.

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Response to AProgressiveThinker (Original post)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:56 PM

63. sorry kid. i am all for kids thinking. tis my favorite. we do a lot of it in our house. but,

i only made it about 2 minutes.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 28, 2013, 10:23 PM

64. I have to admit, I couldn't stop watching this particular car crash....

I fully expected there would be something in it that indicated he had done some research. I'd seen a few other videos on how they are slashing funding for schools, another on the economy where the kids had done some actual homework and presented ideas in a more or less organized fashion. Really great to see that! Not here, obviously. Poor thing underestimated his ability to riff on this topic.

Some very nice (nicer than me) DUers offered some great advice and resources but it would appear the kid has no genuine interest in exploring the subject. Imagine that. He took a half assed swipe at all real liberals with his sadass caricatures of feminists and ran off.

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