HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Video & Multimedia (Forum) » This message was self-del...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:40 AM

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (pathansen) on Fri Jan 18, 2013, 10:23 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

35 replies, 3979 views

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 35 replies Author Time Post
Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
pathansen Dec 2012 OP
Civilization2 Dec 2012 #1
BlueStreak Dec 2012 #12
pathansen Dec 2012 #20
greiner3 Dec 2012 #21
Wally Pipp Dec 2012 #31
pathansen Dec 2012 #19
dorkzilla Dec 2012 #2
Ironblood Dec 2012 #3
jimlup Dec 2012 #4
Frosty1 Dec 2012 #23
WCGreen Dec 2012 #25
DhhD Dec 2012 #5
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #6
Frosty1 Dec 2012 #24
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #7
FailureToCommunicate Dec 2012 #8
rurallib Dec 2012 #9
jsr Dec 2012 #10
fasttense Dec 2012 #11
MH1 Dec 2012 #13
blackspade Dec 2012 #33
ProgressiveJarhead Dec 2012 #14
Ligyron Dec 2012 #15
noel711 Dec 2012 #16
Thav Dec 2012 #17
Moostache Dec 2012 #18
Frosty1 Dec 2012 #22
WCGreen Dec 2012 #26
Vashondem Dec 2012 #27
noel711 Dec 2012 #34
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #28
WCGreen Dec 2012 #30
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #29
blackspade Dec 2012 #32
CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2012 #35

Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:58 AM

1. christianity tried to co-oped the pagan solstice practice,. that is starting to fail.

 

It is well known fact that christ's 'birthday' was simple chosen by a pope,. and done to over-ride the, at the time, increasingly outlawed celebrations of a pagan event.

Solstice is the day of the year when the days change from getting shorter to getting longer,. the "rise of the sun",. . when many people learn the actual history, they tend to be a tad put off by the hypocritical nature of the church,. this attempt to co-opt a pagan celebration of family at the darkest time in the winter is loosing it's connection with that younger religion.

I wish people a Happy Solstice this time of year,. so should you.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Civilization2 (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:56 AM

12. They tried to do the same thing with Halloween (All Saints Day)

"There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."
Mahatma Gandhi

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)


Response to pathansen (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 12:21 PM

21. "Hallowed Eve;"

A time commencing at sunset on October 30 when the gates of 'hell' would open and demons ruled the world.

This would come to an end when the sun rose on the next morning.

Dern Catholic Church; they stole the premise but this means Trick or Treat, a symbolic aftermath of the original ritual when the demons tried to trick you, should last for 12 hours!

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 05:46 PM

31. "Hallowe'en", or "Hallowed Eve", or "All Hallowed Eve"

. . . describes the night before, i.e., the "Eve", of the All Halloweds' Day or All Saints' Day, which occurs the next day, November 1.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Civilization2 (Reply #1)


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 08:04 AM

2. But..but..but...WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!!

Keep the CHRIST in..um..er...yeah well, never mind...

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 08:29 AM

3. the power of symbols

 

Nicely done piece on the symbolism of religion. These symbols become extremely important to people, especially those unable to make the intellectual connections between the underlying truth of symbols and daily living. For many, the symbols are more important than reality. Very difficult to sell this to my religious family, for example. I generally do not try. Guns, for example, have become symbolically connected with freedom for many of the same people. Once you accept as reality the improbability of religious symbols, you are willing to accept many things on 'faith'. Thus the twisted nature of the phrase 'do you believe in' . In this video, it would have been better to not include the part about hours, sunrise and sunset, for they are too easily attacked. And for many of the non-thinkers in America today, if one piece of an argument is iffy, the entire structure can be ignored or ridiculed. Look at what the religious right does with carbon dating, for example. Never give them a fragment, for they will construct of it a temple. Also, why did they make that list of figures at the end, which includes Mohammed? He does NOT fit the pattern of Horus, Mithras, Jesus, etc. Some of the others do not fit so exactly either. These kinds of mistakes can totally undermine an argument which is, in fact, true. Silliness to grab for more than is there.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ironblood (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:18 AM

4. Thanks for your insightful post

You reflect my thinking. I do agree that there is a connection and it is interwoven through history with more than just symbolism. Some of it is simply the shifting from one religion to another while maintaining the holidays which are astrological.

I was in Cuzco Peru during "La Fiesta de San Juan Bautista." It is the equivalent of Christmas and is the solstice celebration. It occurs on June 24th 3 days after the summer solstice. It is quite significant in the Southern Hemisphere. Clearly astrological in nature as for them, living in the Southern Hemisphere, it is astrologically equivalent to Christmas. I find the Southern Hemisphere and particularly South America fascinating for this reason. Everything is upside down.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ironblood (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 12:40 PM

23. I like this

Good points made.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ironblood (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 12:57 PM

25. Kind of like Gamers who get so wrapped up in their

on line life that they start to find it more real than the real world.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:34 AM

5. Christ was born in mid April just as the Holy Bible says.

Joseph and Mary left their home in Nazareth to go to the City of David, Bethlehem, to pay his once a year taxes. Jesus was born at an Inn, on the hay, the guilt offering. He came as the sacrifice to take the place of the animals looking on, in the stable. He was wrapped in the veil of white cloth; a living, breathing Savior, laying in the Ark of Man, a manger. The three Wise Men bestowed the Temple gifts upon the Alter, the alternative.

Taxes were paid during April; the time of Passover, from the time of the Exodus from Egypt lead by Moses.

Jesus was crucified at the end of the Passover week in April. Feel free to research the days of that week in the Roman records. It was around April 21.

The equinox is about March 21.

Christ's mass is a mass on December 25, probably a transitional Catholic Mass to draw in Pagans as well as believers.

The Egg bringing forth a baby to become a ruler is an old practice that was celebrated on December 25. Now the Easter Egg is still around too.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:34 AM

6. Judaism married Paganism and the marriage begot Christianity.

So it is written. So sayeth the Lord. ( And may the gods be praised.)

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 12:43 PM

24. Interesting quotation!

Thanks for sharing!

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:36 AM

7. The roman church moved the "birthday" to coincide with saturnalia.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:37 AM

8. Thanks for that. Happy Solstice! No matter what faith you gravitate towards,

the facts of the decreasing daylight and cold, then "rebirth" of the life-giving sun is hard to ignore.

Find a community that shares your outlook - or tolerates it- and be comforted by their shared spirit and good work, I say.

I'm having decent luck with that with (pagan) street dancers, good neighbors, Unitarians, and, yes, DU.

Happy SOLSTICE!

?w=555&h=355

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:44 AM

9. truth is always so much more fun than the fairy tales

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:44 AM

10. It means the days are getting longer and summer is around the corner

Any day now.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:46 AM

11. Those pre-Roman Crucifixions have me wondering about this video's accuracy.

Crucifixion did not get used as often before Roman times. I really have a hard time believing Egyptians and earlier societies practiced crucifixion.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:57 AM

13. I generally agree with the connection of Solstice to Christmas,

but I think this video needs some fact checking.

Since I'm not much of a student of comparative religion, I took a brief trip through wikipedia, and for example found that Krishna was supposedly born on July 18.

I suspect if I check on some of the other claims I will find them false.

This is unfortunate because I think the general approach and (ostensible) intent of the video is valuable. If there are a lot of egregious falsehoods used to try to strengthen the point, it fails and potentially poisons other, actually factual, arguments.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MH1 (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:25 PM

33. One thing I noticed about Wikipedia is that there is....

Little info on the aspects of the various gods.
Some of the texts I have at home support the video, whereas Wikipedia seems to have been scrubbed of any Christian-like references.
Mithra is a good example as is Horus.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 10:12 AM

14. The Whole Story Is About Mithras

The wise men, the date, the star-everything. Why does Christianity use the Greek translation of the name "Jesus?" His last name was not "Christ." There were two towns called Bethlehem at that time. Ask a Christian what that name means. There is no mention of Nazareth until the 3rd century.

Where are the still present family members of that lineage? The people who assembled the Bible we're clueless about that area. Curse a fig tree at a time when fig trees do not put forth fruit?

The Romans incorporated the pagan religions in order to bring people in line. Easter (also pagan) used to be more important than Christmas. The Puritans looked down on celebrating Christmas.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 10:13 AM

15. over-reached a bit

Some false equivalency with the "sun" becomes "son", f.i.. (used English back then, really?). I always wished this had been edited a bit but it's a good starting point.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 10:20 AM

16. Scholars, Christian scholars concur:

Most if not all Christian holy days were chosen precisely
because of the important pagan observances on that same date.

Yes, Christmas was chosen because so many converts
celebrated solstice/Mithras/Saturnalia in mid-December,
and the early church wanted a piece of that pie.

Summer solstice? Nativity of JOhn the Baptist...
Easter/Passover? Spring equinox..
I can list most of the parallels for you, but you get the picture.

And for the fundie among us, don't get all up in my face:
I have the bona fides: 2 masters in theology, and ordained in a mainline church.

I am sick and tired of being led around by ignoramui.. (Is that plural of ignoramus?)

It's good that people see that we are all connected, one way or another,
by the universe.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to noel711 (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 11:11 AM

17. This is all true

There is a lot of evidence pointing to the "marketing" tactics the early Christians used to gain followers. Some people use these things to split hairs with Christians. The Christmas tree? I don't think that was mentioned in the Bible. I read that Jesus was probably born in late spring.

As a Christian, I think the dates we celebrate things are pretty irrelevant. We celebrate the birth of Christ in December. That's probably not when he was born, but the important thing is that we celebrate his birth.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 11:13 AM

18. That is from "Zeitgeist 1"...but anyway...

I have found that there is simply no reaching the bloodless zealots, which are truly the only religious people that annoy me in the first place. No amount of facts or explanation or history or geology or physics or biology or chemistry or philosophy or anything else will reach their closed minds. Its a waste of oxygen to talk to these types in the first place - their minds are made up and they only see "evidence" to support it...like Toast Christs and miracle cures and "bleeding" statues and so on.

They choose to remain on their island of misinformation and superstition and use it to justify all manner of horrors from ignoring and covering up systemic child rape to burning witches to Crusades and Inquisitions to Shooting doctors and Protesting human rights to acquiescing to and tacitly supporting the Nazi Holocaust. And that barely scrapes the surface of Indulgences, systemic rule and persecution and constant fear-mongering of mankind (including threatening children with the abhorrent doctrine of "hell") throughout the entirety of the "Dark Ages", Excommunications, Purges, Papal infallibility (even if mentally infirm or thoroughly corrupt), tele-evanglists, "curing homosexuality)" and on and on and on and that's JUST Christians!

Religion is the residual vestiges of mankind's primitive past and it retards our growth and prevents us from so much that to ponder it is to weep for the lost opportunity of humanity. We are already doomed as a species, setting the conditions for our own demise through greed and ignorance as the climate shifts and the environment is poisoned; but the greatest tragedy of mankind will not be that we could have turned out so different than we did, it will be that a certain percentage of humanity will never even realize there was a different way and a different path we could have taken.

The enormity of our collective failure is soul crushing if you ponder it seriously. A billion times the tragedy of Newtwon and silently its ignored every day as it barrels towards us on an inevitable collision course. The king is dead....long live the king...

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 12:35 PM

22. One night

"One night beneath a winter sky,

A shooting star, then two and three,


A coyote yipped a piercing cry,


As if intended just for me,




Some things so brief can linger on,


And make impressions deep and strong,


Nights last long this time of year,


The cold embrace of dark yields fear,


Dispelled by fire, warmth and cheer,


Light will return with bud and leaf,


Renew once more deep held belief,


Seasons continue their slow turn,


To love both dark and light, we need to learn."

Stephen Tometz 2012

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 01:05 PM

26. Well, I guess you could say that about all newer religions....

As knowledge grows the old myths die or become co-opted.

Religion started it's evolution when the first man or woman looked up and around and tried to explain what was happening and why.

Celebrations, Christian as well as Pagan, were (are) there to renew the sacred self, to place mankind in the universe, to give up self to be part of a bigger reality that is renewed with the seasons.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 01:20 PM

27. ignoramus: plural = ignorami

NT

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Vashondem (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:21 PM

34. Thank you...

altho I enjoyed Latin, it didn't enjoy me.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 01:34 PM

28. Ugh, Zeitgeist...

Yes, Christianity co-opted quite a bit of "pagan" practices.

But this production's "information" on other religions is goddamned dumb;

Horus was not a "the sun god." Egyptian deities did not work like the European pantheons, with one god being the "god of" this or that. This is in part because there was no single comprehensive Egyptian religion, but it was instead a medly of numerous local mythcycles, unified only by the commonalities of a generally "Egyptian" culture around them. They mixed-and-matched their gods, replaced this god with another, took features from here and put them there... And the idea that "horizon" comes from "Horus is Risen" is fucking dumb, much less the notion that "hours" comes from the name. For one, the Egyptians never used the word "Horus." And it just gets stupider from there as the film takes a lot of the Jesus myth and completely erroneously attributes it to Heru (Aset was a virgin? Disciples? Performing miracles? Whaaaat?)

Their takes on the other figures are equally dumb, and are wholly dependent on falsely attributing modern western ideas about Christianity to all sorts of deities and figures that never bore them.

Attis, for instance was not so much "born of a virgin" as he was born of a girl who was impregnated through the chest by an almond that grew from the severed testicles of a hermaphrodite that the Olympians feared (this figure became Cybele). He was also nursed by a male goat, grew into a desirable young man, so desirable that Cybele fell in love with him, approached Attis in all his/her godliness... resulting in Attis going mad and castrating himself.

Krishna? Born in July. Had eight older brothers (he himself was created without intercourse, though). He was never crucified, though he DID help kill a whole bunch of motherfuckers and, uh, "liberated" their women (sixteen thousand of whom became Krishna's wives.)

Dionyses? Born of a regular woman.. .sorta. She was ripped apart while carrying him so Zeus sewed the... child, I guess, into his own leg to serve as a womb. if you want to tell me Zeus is a virgin, I'mma laugh. "God's only sun"? Hah, riiiight.

Mithra is not a personage, but rather a sort of divine force. Roman Mithraism depicts an anthropomorphic deity and, despite the name, has no real ties to the Persian religion (he's likely a renamed Etruscan deity.) The Roman version was born not by a virgin... but by a rock. His main "thing" was slashing open the necks of bulls as a means of divination. He had no particular connection to Decmber 25th, any more than any other Roman god celebrated during Saturnalia.

Fucking Zeitgeist, making people more ignorant while claiming hte opposite.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 01:38 PM

30. The evolution of belief systems as knowledge expands to science.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 01:35 PM

29. The depths of winter have been a sacred time for millennia.

Many cultures have stories of saviors/heroes born of virgins, crucified, raised from the dead after 3 days, born around the winter solstice. Christianity is just the latest.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:08 PM

32. Excellent

I would add that according to history, Jesus was not born on the 25th.
So what Christians did was steal the clothes of deities that came before in order to legitimize their 'savior.'
Not that this was not something that has apparently taken place for millennia, but it's comparatively recent origin makes it pretty obvious.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pathansen (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 09:57 PM

35. What a facsinating video!

Full of details that I had been only dimly aware of.

Bookmarking.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink