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Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:53 PM

DAYAM did anybody else see this this weekend?

clip from Up With Chris Hays...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46979738/ns/msnbc-up_with_chris_hayes/#50045819

THAT is what should pass for debate in this country.

22 replies, 3608 views

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply DAYAM did anybody else see this this weekend? (Original post)
Volaris Dec 2012 OP
Laurian Dec 2012 #1
dkf Dec 2012 #2
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #13
dkf Dec 2012 #18
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #21
GatorLarry Dec 2012 #15
dkf Dec 2012 #19
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #22
northoftheborder Dec 2012 #3
Enrique Dec 2012 #4
Unknown Beatle Dec 2012 #11
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #14
BlueStreak Dec 2012 #5
femrap Dec 2012 #9
NC_Nurse Dec 2012 #6
Hamlette Dec 2012 #10
progressoid Dec 2012 #7
loyalkydem Dec 2012 #8
colsohlibgal Dec 2012 #12
hootinholler Dec 2012 #16
SheilaT Dec 2012 #17
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #20

Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:07 PM

1. Yep, saw it this morning! It was totally refreshing to

hear such honesty. Our rallying cry against the tea party nuts from this day forth should be "don't be so goddamn dogmatic".

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:08 PM

2. Bartlett is exactly right. Increases in spending need to be connected to immediate increases in tax

 

If you disconnect the two and make it appear there is no cost to spending then spending will grow and grow and grow.

Everyone needs to be hit with the tax increase so that all feel that spending is being done appropriately.

All must contribute to a civilized society.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:23 PM

13. Everyone needs to be hit with the tax increase": Uh, no, not everyone does.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:44 PM

18. Exactly not everyone is, but they need to be.

 

These are collective decisions. They should be collectively paid for or decided against.

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Response to dkf (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:06 PM

21. Taxing the poor until they suffer has not worked in the past.

The French nobility tried it and literally lost their heads.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:36 PM

15. I agree, but . . .

not completely, dkf.

I see the upper 2% -- specifically including Wall Street -- as having profited enormously over the last 10-years or so. They got a head-start, so to speak.

The middle class has already made a "contribution" to the Top 2% tax cuts and the unfunded wars of aggression, outsourced (lost) jobs while the CEOs got huge bonuse$ and have lost their net worth (their home equity lessened, if they still even have their homes).

I say we start right now hitting the ultra-rich just half as hard as the middle class has taken it these last 10-years.

If some want to call that "socialism" then let 'em. They've tried every other code name to denigrate non-republicans: liberals, bleeding-hearts, communists, etc.

But in the future, I do agree that all new spending should either be truly and honestly revenue-neutral or should have an accompanying tax increase or specific spending cut to pay for it.

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Response to GatorLarry (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:51 PM

19. You can't collect taxes you declined to collect in the past.

 

That's a new batch of income being made.

The problem with not having this fall on the middle and lower classes is that it makes it seem like it is all free and so easy to ask for and demand. Yet it's the requests of the many that will break the finances of the country, not the requests of the few.

Once the many are in the habit of not paying, the needs are endless.

That is what concerns me.

And it's only human to want to be provided for and to want to relax as much as possible. I would love that. But if we all did that its not good for the country.

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Response to dkf (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:16 PM

22. We can't mix apples and oranges.

"Yet it's the requests of the many that will break the finances of the country, not the requests of the few.

Once the many are in the habit of not paying, the needs are endless."

Are we talking about mere "requests," or "needs."

What broke our economy was fighting two wars without raising the taxes to pay for them. The requests are from the rich who constantly want tax breaks.

Romney paid lower taxes than many people in the middle class. A single, professional person who earns maybe $180,000 per year will pay a higher tax rate than Romney did. Romney and his investor class requested special tax breaks. The single professional (earning $180,000 per year) doesn't have the money to buy politicians and get her tax breaks.

When it comes to genuine "needs" like food stamps or Social Security (averaging $1,200 per month depending on what the person earned and put into the fund while working) or medical care for people who can't afford it or who are elderly, only a sadist would refuse to pay taxes to cover the costs.

I repeat, only a sadist would refuse to pay taxes to cover the costs of people's real needs.

The question is, what is merely a request and what is a need. Clean air and water and the enforcement of regulations that insure them are necessities as are schools, medical research, a reasonable amount of transportation, air safety and a reasonable amount of defense.

If I were to cut costs, I would cut some of the boondoggle defense costs especially money spent on certain bases overseas. We are way overextended overseas. We need a mobile military. We do not need to be everywhere in such large numbers and with so much heavy equipment. We could cut our defense costs by a great deal and actually get more security for our money. I am convinced of that.

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:08 PM

3. yes, i watched all of it. very good discussions, especially the segment about taxes

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:09 PM

4. compare that with NBC's "prestige" Sunday show

here's MTP's treatment of roughly the same subject

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/vp/50046858#50046830

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Response to Enrique (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:07 PM

11. I watched the clip you provided.

Maria Bartiromo claims that we're living to one hundred years old now. No wonder the repugs want to change the age of retirement and when we can receive our social safety nets to later years of age. Assholes. What a load of crap!

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Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:24 PM

14. What a completely a**-hole claim for her to make. AS IF she knows a one.

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:40 PM

5. The interest point is really important

With this debt load, we are actually at the point that the Fed can never raise interest rates. They have artificially kept rates near zero ostensibly to stimulate the economy, but as a practical matter, they can NEVER let the rates go up because a rise of just 3 percent (for example) would explode the Federal budget.

Inflation is rising, although nobody wants to talk about that. They look at the "market basket" which is artificially price-controlled through the farm subsidies. But outside that narrow market basket, inflation is easily 3% now, and maybe more. Interest rates should be at least as high as inflation, but we can't do that because of the mess Reaganomics / Norquistomics has created.

We really are best to let ALL the bush tax cuts expire and then do a TEMPORARY cut for incomes under $250K. This cut should be pegged to triggers. For example, when unemployment hits 7%, 1/3 of the cuts go away, when we hit 6%, 2/3 of the cuts go away, and they all go away when we hit 5% unemployment.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:29 PM

9. Honestly....

 

the top 1-2% have made sooooooooooooo much money over the past decade, they should be hit with an immediate 10% surtax on ALL INCOME for 2012....yes, rich folks even your lovely little capital gains, interest, and dividends.

You've all seen the charts where the rich have made all the advances in income while the middle class has made NONE! Now with no equity in their homes, the middle class is The Former Middle Class.

Can't someone just come out and say the TRUTH, "YOU ARE JUST TOO F*CKING RICH. YOU HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY. IT'S OVER. IT'S PAY BACK TIME. GET OUT THE CHECKBOOK AND BE A WOMAN/MAN AND WRITE THE DAMN CHECK. THEN GO ORDER YOUR F*CKING BOTTLE OF DOM AND BE HAPPY YOU'RE RICH. EAT SOME CAVIAR."

And for the Hedge Fund folks, we have to figure out a simple way to get at their PASS THROUGH money. I'm sure I could find it and take 10% of it. And if they complain, I'll go back 5 years and take 10% for each year.

F*ck the Rich...they have NOT been held accountable for f*cking years. Their wealth is hideous.....INSANE!

I want to go Occupy 740 Park Ave.

edit for spelling

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:08 PM

6. Love this show. Best political discussions on TV.

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Response to NC_Nurse (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:01 PM

10. I agree!!! I've been singing it praises to everyone I know.

It's the only show on TV where I hit the rewind a time or two because I miss some stuff. (Don't worry, it's not hard to understand it's just that I tend to play solitaire or read blog posts while watching TV. Can't do it with UP.)

Very smart stuff both weekend days.

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:22 PM

7. Excellent quote at the beginning.

One sure way to determine the social conscience of a Government is to examine the way taxes are collected and how they are spent. And one sure way to determine the social conscience of an individual is to get his tax-reaction. Taxes, after all, are the dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society.

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:27 PM

8. It's so much better than meet the press

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:14 PM

12. Bartlett!

I jumped up and clapped when I heard him twice go right after that irritating Ayn Rand clone, who even sounded like Ayn , obviously not hiding his contempt. It was so awesome, you rock Mr. Bartlett!

These aren't socialists going after these tea bag types, it shows how far right the republicans (and in lockstep too many dems in a relative sense) have gone. Ex Reaganites like Bartlett, Dave Stockman, Craig Paul Roberts etc do a much better job of calling out the zealot right than the vast majority of dems.

I also was thrilled that Hayes played audio clips of FDR and Nixon, ala Thom Hartmann this morning. Love the show, I DVR it every Saturday and Sunday.



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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:44 PM

16. Don't be so god damned dogmatic



Seriously!

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:34 PM

17. Thank you so much for posting this.

I happen to have a certain amount of money invested in various ways. I bet if the marginal rates on investment income were raised, I'd be paying more taxes. Darn. But if I'm actually making that much money on my investments, then I can certainly pay more in taxes.

Speaking of taxes and marginal rates, a little more than thirty years ago I went from a decently paying job (one in which I'd maxed out on the SS deduction!) a couple of years before, to one where I was making little more than minimum wage. What astounded me the most in that change was how very little I was now paying in taxes. Of course, my take-home was a lot lower also.

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Response to Volaris (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:04 PM

20. K&R That was great.

It is so rare to see such intelligent discussion on television about a complex issue. Refreshing show.

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