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Wed Nov 7, 2012, 12:49 PM

Obama's "Grand Bargain" Delusion

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Reply Obama's "Grand Bargain" Delusion (Original post)
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 OP
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2012 #1
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #2
BlueStreak Nov 2012 #4
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #9
mmonk Nov 2012 #24
joshcryer Nov 2012 #23
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #25
joshcryer Nov 2012 #26
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #27
joshcryer Nov 2012 #28
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #29
joshcryer Nov 2012 #30
JoeyT Nov 2012 #6
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2012 #7
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #12
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #13
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2012 #14
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #15
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2012 #16
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #17
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2012 #18
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #19
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2012 #21
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #22
Vincardog Nov 2012 #3
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #8
Vincardog Nov 2012 #10
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #11
gutierrez Nov 2012 #5
dcmfox Nov 2012 #20

Response to limpyhobbler (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 01:06 PM

1. I won't watch your video, but I can imagine what it's about. My biggest hope is that folks like you

and your counterparts on the right are immediately sidelined, because the future of our democracy depends on it. The strident ideological partisanship you represent, must not be allowed to dominate the debate these next four years. Groups like the tea party, and OWS must be marginalized if we're to have any chance at bringing this country back together to serve ALL the people. Sorry, but I won't allow you kill my buzz today.

Jill Stein suffered a hugely embarrassing loss, and it's time for her & her accolytes to climb down from their ideological perch, and work to find common ground.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 01:11 PM

2. We Have Eight Weeks to Protect Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid



As working families all over the country celebrated President Obama's re-election last night, we also began mobilizing to protect Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid from benefit cuts.

Working families need more economic security, not less. But some legislators and their friends on Wall Street are set on reaching a “grand bargain” during the post-election "lame-duck" session of Congress that would cut the benefits that we and our children will depend on. They want to cut our Social Security COLAs, raise the retirement age for Social Security and Medicare and cut Medicaid, which could force families into bankruptcy when a loved one needs long-term care. Why? They say it’s to reduce the deficit, but that’s obviously not true. If they were serious about reducing the deficit, they would not be insisting on extending the Bush tax cuts for the richest 2% of Americans.

What should Congress do? The most important two things are:

1. Congress should let the Bush tax cuts expire for the wealthiest 2% of Americans.

2. Congress must make no cuts to Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid benefits.

Sign the petition: www.aflcio.org/ProtectOurFuture.

Call your members of Congress now at 888-659-9401.

Across the country Nov. 8, working people are joining events to spread this message. Find one near you: http://local.americawantstowork.org/protectourfuture

We need to send a clear message why we must protect the promise of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

Share your story why Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are important to you.
...
http://www.aflcio.org/Blog/Political-Action-Legislation/We-Have-Eight-Weeks-to-Protect-Social-Security-Medicare-and-Medicaid

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 02:07 PM

4. It is a shell game

Last edited Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:09 PM - Edit history (1)

All that talk about millionaire tax rate going from 36 to 39 is bullshit. Almost none of the income is paid at that rate. That isn't how the 0.1% are escaping their fair share. They are evading their fair share by:

1) Loopholes that allow them to launder their income as cap gains, and pay only 15% on that. The Bush plan cut cap gains from 20% to 15%. Have you heard a single word about restoring cap gains to 20% ? I have not.

2) abusive shelters that avoid paying taxes altogether.

So what we need is this. Leave the damn 36% alone if you want. Nobody pays that anyway. We need:

a) Get rid of Carried Interest and other loopholes that allow the rich to abuse the cap gains rate

b) Put the cap gains rate at least back up to 20% or better yet, treat cap gains as ordinary income, just as freaking RONALD REAGAN did.

c) Institute an alternate minimum tax and other laws to remove the incentive for these Enron-style complex tax shelters.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:59 PM

9. That seems pretty sensible

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 09:28 AM

24. Yes. Absolutely.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 03:30 AM

23. 8 weeks? The fiscal cliff has been pushed until Spring of 2013...

...not sure where the 8 weeks number comes from.

Paul Krugman makes the case.

If you make the deal before the tax cuts expire then there's no doubt that extensions will be part of the deal.

You have to let them expire or be 100% committed to letting them expire (and the teabaggers will call your bluff).

Then they'll be pressed to vote "no" on a middle class tax cut.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 04:57 PM

25. The sequestration takes effect Jan 2, 2013, doesn't it?

The next 8 weeks is when people are calling their Reps., asking to protect vital services.

The concern is that Obama and Boehner could reach a deal in the lame duck session that results in cuts to vital programs.

Who pushed it back to the spring, Krugman?

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 07:22 PM

26. The immediate effects are minimal.

You can wait until March or even April before you really start having to worry.

Representative Paul D. Ryan, the Republican vice-presidential nominee, returned to the House on Thursday for a hero’s welcome from adoring Republicans, jeers from opposition Democrats and a mission that was as painful as it was politically necessary: to give his blessing to legislation financing the government into next year at a level higher than the one set in his own budget.

With Mr. Ryan’s approval and his vote, the House easily passed a stopgap spending measure, 329 to 91, that will keep the government operating through March — without fuss or drama. That was a marked departure from the budget fights last year that threatened to shut down the government and even push it into a historic default.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/us/politics/house-republicans-approve-spending-measure.html

Of course, I informed you of this before...

They got owned. They were trying to hold the country hostage by refusing to approve the 2013 budget, but the Democrats got them to approve it until March.

The only logical move is to let the tax cuts expire. Any negotiation before that time is a total failure. I would actually be upset if Obama negotiated before that (unless he magically good good results; which idiots like Glenn Greenwald believe).

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #26)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 10:25 PM

27. The "8 weeks" came from the AFL-CIO blog post,

I didn't write that headline.

They think there is some risk of Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security benefit cuts. And they think there is a risk of such a deal in the lame duck session, in the next 8 weeks.

So we're talking about how to act now to influence the shape of the deal that will emerge.

Surely you must see that these benefits are up for negotiation and it is appropriate for the citizens to weigh in with their views, by contacting the President and/or their Members of Congress.

I understand there may not be an actual fiscal emergency. The emergency is the threat of the President and Congress passing a shitty deal that cuts vital programs. If people care about protecting Medicare and Social Security, for now and for future generations, now is a good time to pay attention.



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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:01 PM

28. That's what I don't like about that blog post.

By saying something must be done now and before the tax cuts expire means that there's something to negotiate over.

They do say to let the cuts expire.

They also say don't cut Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security.

Neither of which is contingent upon one another. If you do absolutely nothing, nada, zip, then the tax cuts expire, and pow, you've just put a huge dent in the long term deficit forecasts.

There's only one way out of this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/bush-tax-cuts-fiscal-cliff_b_2104398.html

I'm not saying don't sit around and draft legislation, but to negotiate in the lame duck session would be a real screw up. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the Republicans will want to negotiate and that the terms would be reasonable. I just find it unlikely.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 9, 2012, 11:49 PM

29. They have an "8 weeks" theme going on...

http://www.aflcio.org/Get-Involved/Protect-Our-Future

Letting the Bush tax cuts expire on Dec 31 could be a good option.

Or, Obama and Boehner might try for a deal in the next 8 weeks.

Obama has made a public comment that the sequestration 'will not happen'. The deadline for that is Jan 2. So it seems they are trying to come up with a deal before Jan 2, 2013. (Is that the correct date?)

Also
Both sides have acknowledged the need to avoid the fiscal cliff — the tax increases and spending cuts that will take effect starting in January if Congress does not act and that will total nearly $700 billion next year alone...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/10/opinion/the-fiscal-cliff-opener.html

Pretty clearly if it's $700 billion in spending cuts next year alone that could have an effect on the economy, so there is some pressure to avoid it by coming up with a deal.

So I think the AFL-CIO and others are not necessarily wrong to focus on right now as the time to express our views to the Congress and the President.

There is also a good chance the President and Congress come up with a temporary deal and punt it down the field a few months.

I don't think anybody knows what is going to happen.

If people want their programs protected this is as good a time as any to speak out about it.

Clearly the President views cutting these programs as negotiable.


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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #29)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:13 AM

30. I think there's zero chance the Congress compromises until after they expire.

The cuts, as I said, aren't immediate, the effect won't be immediate, the government can juggle the books for months without any cuts actually taking place.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 02:41 PM

6. Well at least y'all aren't even pretending to not hate OWS anymore.

It's a pretty safe bet the right side of any issue is the ones y'all aren't on.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #6)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:05 PM

7. I can't speak for "yall", but find a post where I "pretended" that I gave a shit about OWS.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #1)


Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #1)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:04 PM

13. please do not interact with me at all in the future.

thanks.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:15 PM

14. Then you probably shouldn't post then. AFAIK, this is a discussion board. Of course, you don't...

have to respond. "Thanks".

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #14)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:17 PM

15. ok fine. if you insist. Are you ok with Obama cutting social security benefits as part of a deal?

Such as by cutting COLAs, or raising the retirement age?

ok with cutting Medicare? Medicaid? Really ok with that?

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #15)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:24 PM

16. If he can explain why, and how much it will impact the beneficiary to my satisfaction, then Yes!

A half a loaf is better than no loaf at all. I know this is a foreign concept, but "compromise" is what grownups do. You give some, You get some. You do realize that the debt is not a myth, right? I prefer not to experiment with any extreme Greek style austerity measures, but the adults have known that some cuts would have to be part of a revenue raising deal.

If you don't like the medicine, then "Occupy Congress" until they come up with something that doesn't touch the social safety net.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:29 PM

17. Sir, you disgust me. All Social Security cutters please be gone from my sight.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #17)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 06:37 PM

18. Why? Because you might have to work a couple of years longer before you retire to...

the South of France? Fret not! Your chalet will still be there. And as for "disgust"....well.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 04:21 PM

19. Anyone who advocates cutting social security benefits should leave the Democratic Party and leave

this website.

Same for anyone who wants to raise the retirement age for Social Security or Medicare, or cut Medicaid benefits, or cut veterans benefits.

Social Security cuts are a war on the middle class and the working poor. Be gone. Go to the GOP where you belong.

We elect Democrats to defend these programs. President Obama should veto cuts like Bill Clinton did in 1995.

It takes a 2/3 majority of both houses of Congress to override a veto.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #19)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 05:15 PM

21. Anyone who doesn't accept reality, should be shot into out of space, or join the Green Party.

Same difference.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #21)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 05:32 PM

22. Reality: There are ways to save money without cutting vital public services.

1) A 1% financial transaction tax.

2) Lift the cap on payroll taxes.

3) Let the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire.

4) Austerity for defense contractors.

5) Stop putting people in jail for non-violent drug crimes.

6) A single-payer health insurance plan would save billions.

7) Allow Medicare to negotiate a bulk price for the cost of drugs.

etc.

You're selling Mitt Romney's version of reality, telling us we need to accept cuts from vital safety net programs.

But it's a big fat lie and nobody is buying.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 01:25 PM

3. I watched the video. My biggest hope is that the fiscal hawks worried about Medicare allow Drug

price negotiations to save it.
If the Deficit is too big:
Tax the rich, the corporations,
institute a Financial transactions tax
place tariffs on imports to protect American jobs
If the deficit is still to scary after those revenue enhancers cut the budget for WAR.


This is for all those who said we couldn't criticize BO's policies during the election

CAN WE PUSH FOR PEOPLE FRIENDLY POLICIES NOW?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 03:45 PM

8. Yes, please.

I doubt too many people voted for the President thinking of it as a vote for cutting Social Security or Medicare.

Or for raising the retirement age. Nobody in my family lives long enough to collect if they raise the retirement age.

Sorry folks, but if President Obama signs a Social Security cut, he gets credit for that, he can't pass the buck and blame it all on the Republicans. He owns that. Same goes for the Dems in the Senate.

The President ought to veto the cuts. That includes any cuts to Cost Of Living Increases, using a chained CPI, or raising the retirement age. Those are all sneaky ways of cutting. It takes a 2/3 super-majority to override a veto and they ought to be held to that.

Also +1000 to everything you said.

Also they can raise the cap on payroll taxes to make it more fair.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #8)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 04:36 PM

10. Agreed except don't raise the cap Eliminate it and apply it to Financial gains too. Why should

Willard pay less Federal tax than the average worker pays in FICA alone?

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Response to Vincardog (Reply #10)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 05:35 PM

11. exactly. nt

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Response to limpyhobbler (Original post)

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 02:23 PM

5. Obama "grand bargain" hahaha

 

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Response to limpyhobbler (Original post)

Thu Nov 8, 2012, 04:31 PM

20. Bullshit

Mitch McConnell is up for re-election in two years. Nuff said.

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